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(Washington Post)   Clean coal technologies have resulted in a puzzling increase in black lung disease   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 82
    More: Obvious, clean coal, black lung disease, Appalachians, West Virginia University, Cook County, Illinois, coal mines, Health Administration, engineers  
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2564 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 May 2013 at 2:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-13 01:35:05 PM  
www.encognitive.com
 
2013-05-13 01:37:55 PM  
There is no such thing as "clean coal".
 
2013-05-13 02:09:19 PM  
Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.
 
2013-05-13 02:10:33 PM  
So a disease that afflicts people with a specific occupation has increased when the number of people doing that job increased.

How ironic.
 
2013-05-13 02:10:43 PM  
Clean coal, it's as good as scratch-n-sniff asbestos!
 
2013-05-13 02:12:45 PM  

vernonFL: There is no such thing as "clean coal".


It is a subjective term similar to the promiscuity of your mom vs a professional.  Also it is less of a mouthfull than coal gasification.

I do not think subby and I read the same article.
 
2013-05-13 02:13:55 PM  

Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.


No, hydro is not a more economical fossil fuel than coal.
 
2013-05-13 02:16:30 PM  
'Clean coal' is like '100% natural cyanide'.
 
2013-05-13 02:18:15 PM  

vernonFL: There is no such thing as "clean coal".


Are you ESL?
 
2013-05-13 02:21:24 PM  
*screaming_news_monster.jpg*
CLEAN COAL TECHNOLOGY DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!
 
2013-05-13 02:22:50 PM  
Damn, and I just watched the West Wing episode where Bartlett slams it. How did the line go? "Clean coal is just a term a marketing group came up with because it polled better" or somesuch?

And that was in 2002
 
2013-05-13 02:23:22 PM  

Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.

*

*ignoring all the externalities, like mercury, co2, black lung, and mining runoff.
 
2013-05-13 02:23:33 PM  
The article is about conditions in the coal mines, and is unrelated to whether or not the coal is burned in a "clean" process.

Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity.


Sure, as long as somebody else gets to pay for all of the health and environmental costs.
 
2013-05-13 02:24:27 PM  

Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.


Sure, if you for some bizarre reason ignore externalities.
 
2013-05-13 02:25:55 PM  

vernonFL: There is no such thing as "clean coal".


[thatsthejoke.jpg]
 
2013-05-13 02:29:03 PM  
www.hrwiki.org
Happy The Cheat day, Ilko! May you never get the black lung.
 
2013-05-13 02:36:27 PM  
www.buncee.com
I think I got the black lung pop...
 
2013-05-13 02:38:44 PM  

Saiga410: Also it is less of a mouthfull

plays better in Peoria than coal gasification.

Marketing, no more and no less. "Clean coal" is basically "Chilean sea bass" for the energy industry.
 
2013-05-13 02:39:43 PM  

Hollie Maea: Sure, if you for some bizarre reason ignore externalities.


Why wouldn't he? Human history is nothing but ignoring externalities until they get too big to ignore.
 
2013-05-13 02:40:18 PM  

ikanreed: Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.*

*ignoring all the externalities, like mercury, co2, black lung, and mining runoff.


Can you imagine the outcry if business had to include those in their business costs?

Why, cleaner technology might just be able to compete!

I was getting rained on by a factory on my way into work nearly everyday.  I let them know about it because, ew, factory exhaust is dripping on me.  They claim it's water and wood dust (it's a particle board factory).

They thanked me though for letting them know about it, because it means they needed to retune their system.  As factories go, they are cognizant of their responsibilities to their community.

For instance, they no longer use formaldehyde based glues.
 
2013-05-13 02:45:59 PM  

ikanreed: Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.*

*ignoring all the externalities, like mercury, co2, black lung, and mining runoff.


Hydro has its own sets of externalities.  Right now there are a number of enviro groups that would love nothing more than to tear out no fewer than 4 large dams in the Columbia River watershed.

No such thing as a free lunch folks
 
2013-05-13 02:49:11 PM  

Klivian: Damn, and I just watched the West Wing episode where Bartlett slams it. How did the line go? "Clean coal is just a term a marketing group came up with because it polled better" or somesuch?

And that was in 2002


Kinda like "common sense gun regulation", right?
 
2013-05-13 02:49:15 PM  
www.citizens4freedom.com
 
2013-05-13 02:50:00 PM  

HeadLever: Hydro has its own sets of externalities.


In the consideration of hydro vs coal externalities, I'll take the hydro, thanks.
 
2013-05-13 02:51:10 PM  

HeadLever: ikanreed: Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.*

*ignoring all the externalities, like mercury, co2, black lung, and mining runoff.

Hydro has its own sets of externalities.  Right now there are a number of enviro groups that would love nothing more than to tear out no fewer than 4 large dams in the Columbia River watershed.

No such thing as a free lunch folks


In the dark Knight strikes again they hooked the flash up to a giant hamster wheel to generate electricity. That's pretty free.
 
2013-05-13 02:51:16 PM  

theorellior: Saiga410: Also it is less of a mouthfull plays better in Peoria than coal gasification.

Marketing, no more and no less. "Clean coal" is basically "Chilean sea bass" for the energy industry.


Actually it play very well in Peoria also in about all of IL.

We have all this coal and it is just about unusableto directly burn because of it is considered dirty coal.
 
2013-05-13 02:51:56 PM  

meat0918: Why, cleaner technology might just be able to compete!


Depends upon if you get the pay for those externalities.  For example, mining and refining rare earth magnets for those wind turbines is a much worse process than mining an burning coal.  Just because they exist in Mongolia and China does not make them any less real than the ones that you can see from your window.

Again, there is no free lunch in this regard.
 
2013-05-13 02:55:24 PM  

theorellior: In the consideration of hydro vs coal externalities, I'll take the hydro, thanks.


Me too.  However, there are those enviros that would not.  They seem to be perfectly fine on removing about 3 GW of electrical capacity from the PNW (not including the elimination of barge traffic along this part of the Columbia/Snake Rivers).  Since most of that would be made up with coal or NG production, you really have to wonder how these folks think.
 
2013-05-13 02:56:31 PM  
All this biatching and moaning about the environmental aspects of coal when the topic should be this

www.safetyissues.com

That's the ultrabasic filter required to be provided by the mines. If you've done drywall sanding or spray painting with one of these masks you'd understand how badly they suck. At the end of the day you've been breathing heavy and a little crap still gets in.

Solution? I don't know, maybe some of the better masks already on the market, maybe get some sports physiologists to test out some new designs.
 
2013-05-13 03:12:42 PM  

Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.


Natural gas is currently beating coal in terms of economics.  Prices have dropped and availability has increased, both because of Fracking.
 
2013-05-13 03:14:38 PM  

hervatski: HeadLever: ikanreed: Pick: Coal is the most economical fossil fuel used to generate electricity. Only thing that beats it, is hydro.*

*ignoring all the externalities, like mercury, co2, black lung, and mining runoff.

Hydro has its own sets of externalities.  Right now there are a number of enviro groups that would love nothing more than to tear out no fewer than 4 large dams in the Columbia River watershed.

No such thing as a free lunch folks

In the dark Knight strikes again they hooked the flash up to a giant hamster wheel to generate electricity. That's pretty free.


we have Adobe not Barry Allen in the universe, all Flash does here is waste electricity
 
2013-05-13 03:39:10 PM  

hervatski


In the dark Knight strikes again they hooked the flash up to a giant hamster wheel to generate electricity. That's pretty free.


But he probably eats a lot: you have to consider the food budget.
 
2013-05-13 03:40:51 PM  

Saiga410: We have all this coal and it is just about unusable to directly burn because of it is considered dirty coal.


Considered? It is dirty. Fly-ash, sulfur, mercury, soot--it's all dirty. Don't try to pretend it's not.
 
2013-05-13 03:54:02 PM  

Englebert Slaptyback: hervatski

In the dark Knight strikes again they hooked the flash up to a giant hamster wheel to generate electricity. That's pretty free.


But he probably eats a lot: you have to consider the food budget.


That is true. We week reach peak hot pockets soon enough.
 
2013-05-13 03:57:17 PM  

theorellior: Saiga410: We have all this coal and it is just about unusable to directly burn because of it is considered dirty coal.

Considered? It is dirty. Fly-ash, sulfur, mercury, soot--it's all dirty. Don't try to pretend it's not.


So you would be OK if we took this coal and under heat and pressure make NG similar gases and then reprocessing the remains for other uses or proper disposal?
 
2013-05-13 04:06:28 PM  

HeadLever: For example, mining and refining rare earth magnets for those wind turbines is a much worse process than mining an burning coal.


Modern wind turbines don't use magnets.  Sorry.
 
2013-05-13 04:11:47 PM  

Hollie Maea: HeadLever: For example, mining and refining rare earth magnets for those wind turbines is a much worse process than mining an burning coal.

Modern wind turbines don't use magnets.  Sorry.


Que?

//No seriously, I'd love to know how they are generating electricity without magnets. of some sort.
 
2013-05-13 04:14:43 PM  

Hollie Maea: Modern wind turbines don't use magnets. Sorry.


Except for when they do

i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2013-05-13 04:20:51 PM  

meat0918: Que?

//No seriously, I'd love to know how they are generating electricity without magnets. of some sort.


They use Double Fed Induction Generators.  Like all induction machines, they do not use permanent magnets.

Of course "headlever" will try to use GE marketing literature from 2009 to prove that you totally need permanent magnet machines.
 
2013-05-13 04:26:12 PM  

Hollie Maea: meat0918: Que?

//No seriously, I'd love to know how they are generating electricity without magnets. of some sort.

They use Double Fed Induction Generators.  Like all induction machines, they do not use permanent magnets.

Of course "headlever" will try to use GE marketing literature from 2009 to prove that you totally need permanent magnet machines.


But it still uses electromagnets, just not permanent ones.  It's still a magnet.

Maybe we should all be more precise in our use of language when discussing technical matters?
 
2013-05-13 04:26:15 PM  
No suprise.  It can be explained by three things: 1) the near destruction of the power of the United Mine Workers after companies like Massey Energy began an agressive campaign to bust those unions.  2) the Nuetering of MSHA's enforcement division under bush when a Lobbyist and Board member of Massey energy was put in charge of the enfrocement division as a reward for large campaign contributions.  3) deliberate orders from Mine owners to thier oprators to  tamper with safegaurd that measure coal dust exposure of their workers and disable expensive filtration equipment.  The same deliberate crippling of coal-dust abtement measures helped cause the Sago and Upper Big Branch mine explosions
 
2013-05-13 04:26:55 PM  

meat0918: Que?

//No seriously, I'd love to know how they are generating electricity without magnets. of some sort.


He is thinking that these generators use an induction system (which some of them do).  However, most are migrating toward the PM side.
 
2013-05-13 04:27:36 PM  

meat0918: Maybe we should all be more precise in our use of language when discussing technical matters?


Yes we should.  I figured since I was responding to a post about mining of rare earths it was clear what I meant.  But yes, I should have said "permanent magnets"
 
2013-05-13 04:27:52 PM  
meat0918:

//No seriously, I'd love to know how they are generating electricity without magnets. of some sort.

Obviously they aren't in this case, but there are a few real and theoretical ways to generate electricity with no magnets at all(of course the wire will put off a magnet field so you'll be creating a low grade electromagnet, but we all know you meant permanent magnets.

Photovoltaic effect: light can induce a directional current in appropriately selected materials.
Fuel Cells: With certain chemical reactions, they energy can come off in the form of free electrons in a slow+controlled enough reaction.  Not really a common method of energy generation though.  More often used for storage.
Proton-Boron fusion: if you fuse hydrogen to boron-8 by inertial confinement, the reaction produces 3 He+2 nuclei with high kinetic energy.  If these pass through a conductor, they induce an electric current.
 
2013-05-13 04:28:25 PM  

Saiga410: So you would be OK if we took this coal and under heat and pressure make NG similar gases and then reprocessing the remains for other uses or proper disposal?


Sure. Syngas is fine. You sequester and dispose of the residue and you're golden. Just don't burn it directly and release the byproducts in the atmosphere and watershed and call it "clean".
 
2013-05-13 04:29:55 PM  

Hollie Maea: Of course "headlever" will try to use GE marketing literature from 2009 to prove that you totally need permanent magnet machines.


Of course 'Hollie Maea' will try to use a goalpost moving technique to try to make everyone think that HeadLever said you 'totally need permanent magnet machines' for this application when he did not.
 
2013-05-13 04:31:29 PM  

ikanreed: meat0918:

//No seriously, I'd love to know how they are generating electricity without magnets. of some sort.

Obviously they aren't in this case, but there are a few real and theoretical ways to generate electricity with no magnets at all(of course the wire will put off a magnet field so you'll be creating a low grade electromagnet, but we all know you meant permanent magnets.

Photovoltaic effect: light can induce a directional current in appropriately selected materials.
Fuel Cells: With certain chemical reactions, they energy can come off in the form of free electrons in a slow+controlled enough reaction.  Not really a common method of energy generation though.  More often used for storage.
Proton-Boron fusion: if you fuse hydrogen to boron-8 by inertial confinement, the reaction produces 3 He+2 nuclei with high kinetic energy.  If these pass through a conductor, they induce an electric current.


I should have been more precise, because I feel like the fool I am at the moment.
 
2013-05-13 04:31:57 PM  

Magorn: No suprise.  It can be explained by three things: 1) the near destruction of the power of the United Mine Workers after companies like Massey Energy began an agressive campaign to bust those unions.  2) the Nuetering of MSHA's enforcement division under bush when a Lobbyist and Board member of Massey energy was put in charge of the enfrocement division as a reward for large campaign contributions.  3) deliberate orders from Mine owners to thier oprators to  tamper with safegaurd that measure coal dust exposure of their workers and disable expensive filtration equipment.  The same deliberate crippling of coal-dust abtement measures helped cause the Sago and Upper Big Branch mine explosions


The wonders of "deregulation" at work.
 
2013-05-13 04:35:59 PM  

HeadLever: However, most are migrating toward the PM side.


So when you cited the use of rare earth magnets in wind turbines to support the statement "there's no such thing as a free lunch" what you REALLY meant was "some companies have chosen to go with the cheap lunch because it is readily available"

If tomorrow we decided to internalize the mining costs of rare earths (or, for that matter, if we discovered tomorrow that we had ran out) it wouldn't significantly effect the wind industry in any way.  Some companies would have to go back to using marginally more expensive gear boxes.  DFIGs still are absolutely fine options.

Same thing with electric vehicles.  I always hear people howl about how we will run out of rare earths if we start making EVs.  Yet Tesla doesn't use any permanent magnets in their drive train, and if the rare earths even THOUGHT about becoming scarce, everyone else would simply migrate to induction machines without a second thought.
 
2013-05-13 04:39:23 PM  

HeadLever: Of course 'Hollie Maea' will try to use a goalpost moving technique to try to make everyone think that HeadLever said you 'totally need permanent magnet machines' for this application when he did not.


Nope, I'm not moving any goalposts.  If you had followed up your "rare earth mining" statement with this:

There is a free lunch, but some companies have chosen not to utilize it.

instead of this:

Again, there is no free lunch in this regard.

then yes, I would concede the point.  More likely, you had never heard of DFIGs until you looked them up.
 
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