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(Yahoo)   The house always wins. Unless it doesn't. Then things get lawyery   (sports.yahoo.com) divider line 18
    More: Interesting, Phil Ivey  
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5323 clicks; posted to Sports » on 13 May 2013 at 3:37 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-13 01:55:30 AM
6 votes:
If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.

Same thing goes for card counting in blackjack.
Pretty much anyone who plays blackjack knows, if you draw a 20, you don't ask for another card, because the chances that the next card will be an ace, are pretty slim, so the game of blackjack itself, is actually card counting.

What a bunch of sore losers.
There are few things (trust me on this) more satisfying in life, than conning a con man.
2013-05-13 02:02:57 AM
3 votes:
Done in one. The player has no obligation to inform the casino that their game is defective. Winning due to extra information isn't cheating, any more than card counting is. As long as a) the player doesn't manipulate the cards, b) the dealer doesn't do anything wrong, and c) there is no coercion for what the dealer does do, I can't see how the casino wins this.

The funny thing is that the house might have taken a nice loss here, but they could have used it to gain valuable information about their game so it didn't happen again. Now all they've done is chased away high rollers who know that they won't get their payout if they win. In the end, long-term, the house always wins. Numbers don't lie. If they're tight-up for $12 million they've got bigger problems than Phil Ivey, because it means that they can't make money at something that is mathematically guaranteed to make money.
2013-05-13 04:14:01 AM
2 votes:
I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.  They will  cheat, lie and steal so that gamblers don't walk away with 'the casino's' money.

/didn't go to casinos when I lived in the US.
2013-05-13 02:35:33 AM
2 votes:
"if " that's the way it went down and he didn't just hit an unbelievable hot streak, the casino deserves to take it on the chin.

and all casinos everywhere should study the facts about this to either implement better safeguards, or ACTUALLY ADHERE TO THE SAFEGUARDS ALREADY IN PLACE!

"the dealer rotated the cards 180° at the request of the player, who claimed he was superstitious"

"can you rotate the cards, he's superstitious"
"Ahh no ma'am. I'm sorry"
"but he's Phil Ivey"
"no ma'am I can't. Place your bets."

"In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.

TommyymmoT: If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.


amen.
2013-05-13 02:27:02 PM
1 votes:

BStorm: Uzzah:Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them.

No they're not, unless they're rigged and therefore illegal. The casinos can set a general percentage for the overall win/loss ratio, but there's still a random element involved in each play, or at least that's the idea.

Besides, trying to script each play in advance would be a tremendous waste of time and energy when the laws of probability are perfectly capable of making the casino plenty of money without any additional effort. I won't even get started on the potential for massive lawsuits if someone were to discover that the supposedly random results were actually scripted beforehand.


They are random in the same sense that the C function rand() is random, which is to say, not random at all if you know the mathematical seed. That is how casinos can prove they have been tampered with. Otherwise, they wouldn't be capable of distinguishing a real win from a hacked win
2013-05-13 12:58:40 PM
1 votes:

ha-ha-guy: Actually the rogue cards idea sounds kind of interesting.  I'm thinking if you own some factory in China that spits them out, you could covertly mark them or find some crazy way to do it (like marking on the card that was only visible if you were wearing a contact lens with a filter on it).  Track your customers and every so often drop in and win a few hundred thousand.  As long as you didn't get greedy and never cleaned a place out, you could clean up fairly well and they'd never notice.  Maybe just mark 1 in 20 decks and wander around the casino floor until you saw one of your marked decks in play, sit down, win a bit, move on.


Casinos are usually incredibly vigilant. Some have banned people for merely winning big at a blackjack table, they're that paranoid of card counting. There is no way they wouldn't notice some guy sitting down at a table for a few hands and winning in an improbable string every time he does.
2013-05-13 12:27:04 PM
1 votes:
Actually the rogue cards idea sounds kind of interesting.  I'm thinking if you own some factory in China that spits them out, you could covertly mark them or find some crazy way to do it (like marking on the card that was only visible if you were wearing a contact lens with a filter on it).  Track your customers and every so often drop in and win a few hundred thousand.  As long as you didn't get greedy and never cleaned a place out, you could clean up fairly well and they'd never notice.  Maybe just mark 1 in 20 decks and wander around the casino floor until you saw one of your marked decks in play, sit down, win a bit, move on.
2013-05-13 11:03:12 AM
1 votes:

Igor Jakovsky: Rwa2play: iron_city_ap: This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.

This is why the only time I'll step in a casino is to go head-to-head against another human being that's NOT the house.  They should just take it on the chin and move on.  The alternative (read: they win; but then Ivey issues a persona non grata on the casino to his friends/fellow players, which will soon shut down) is pretty hideous to contemplate.

You'd think bad publicity from a top world player wouldn't be worth the loss. I can't think of a worse reputation for a casino to have than being one that doesn't pay out.


To claim that a respected high-stakes player is, in fact, cheating, is a big deal. If they cannot prove it beyond a shadow of doubt, that casino had better close the doors - not only will Ivey get his payout, but punitive damages (if his lawyer is any good), and other high-stakes players will avoid the casino like the plague.
2013-05-13 10:24:39 AM
1 votes:

Baron Harkonnen: I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.  They will  cheat, lie and steal so that gamblers don't walk away with 'the casino's' money.

/didn't go to casinos when I lived in the US.


Its why I hate spending vacation time in casinos, the gf and her mom like going, she usually wins a little bit from the casino but I know her mom pisses twice as much back playing slots.

If I'm spending money on a vacation I would rather experience other parts of the world instead of a farking casino.
2013-05-13 09:51:21 AM
1 votes:
You're more likely to get payouts from your local mafia bookie than from an Indian Casino.
2013-05-13 09:47:57 AM
1 votes:

Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.


Some casinos don't bother to mar them, then sell them out on the east coast in dollar stores.  I've picked up decks from several Vegas casinos out here in WNY.

Could you buy a deck from, say, the Cosmopolitan at the local dollar store, then take it on your next Vegas jaunt and have a little card-switching fun?  Well....maybe.  I collect playing cards (I know, thrilling hobby) so I'd know if a deck was altered.  But these ones just don't seem to be changed in any way.  I'm thinking that these cards in fact aren't ones used in those casinos, and are of noticeably lower quality and so would stick out like a sore thumb.  With most casino cards, the red colors are very dark, and with these ones the reds aren't so much.  Why bother with the deception?  Beats me.
2013-05-13 08:46:22 AM
1 votes:

Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.


Coincidentally, that's the same thing that happens to the strippers.
2013-05-13 08:43:54 AM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?


Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.
2013-05-13 07:49:23 AM
1 votes:

Relatively Obscure: "We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.


Here in the states, at least, that won't happen unless the Indian tribes let the government regulate their casinos like the other magnates do.
2013-05-13 05:51:35 AM
1 votes:

calbert: "In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.


This.  If they really did leave those cards in play for multiple days, particularly at such high stakes, then someone at the casino farked up royally (whether they were defective or not).  More likely, many people at the casino farked up royally, because something like that requires the approval of a pit boss at the least, more likely several persons above that level.  And that's not even going into the fact that the farking cards should be checked by the dealer & floor supervisor before they're even put into play, all on camera.

Baccarat has a minute house edge to begin with, so if they're going to allow bets so high then they need to be prepared to pay out some huge wins when a player hits a hot streak & quits while ahead.  And if their staff is too incompetent to properly safeguard the game, then again--that's the casino's fault.
2013-05-13 03:41:37 AM
1 votes:
If someone manages to get the dealer to re-use the cards, they deserve what they get. What casino doesn't know to dump them after they're used?
2013-05-13 03:20:38 AM
1 votes:
I get it! He's black!
2013-05-13 02:54:05 AM
1 votes:
"We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.
 
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