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(Yahoo)   The house always wins. Unless it doesn't. Then things get lawyery   (sports.yahoo.com) divider line 92
    More: Interesting, Phil Ivey  
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5323 clicks; posted to Sports » on 13 May 2013 at 3:37 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-13 01:55:30 AM
If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.

Same thing goes for card counting in blackjack.
Pretty much anyone who plays blackjack knows, if you draw a 20, you don't ask for another card, because the chances that the next card will be an ace, are pretty slim, so the game of blackjack itself, is actually card counting.

What a bunch of sore losers.
There are few things (trust me on this) more satisfying in life, than conning a con man.
 
2013-05-13 02:02:57 AM
Done in one. The player has no obligation to inform the casino that their game is defective. Winning due to extra information isn't cheating, any more than card counting is. As long as a) the player doesn't manipulate the cards, b) the dealer doesn't do anything wrong, and c) there is no coercion for what the dealer does do, I can't see how the casino wins this.

The funny thing is that the house might have taken a nice loss here, but they could have used it to gain valuable information about their game so it didn't happen again. Now all they've done is chased away high rollers who know that they won't get their payout if they win. In the end, long-term, the house always wins. Numbers don't lie. If they're tight-up for $12 million they've got bigger problems than Phil Ivey, because it means that they can't make money at something that is mathematically guaranteed to make money.
 
2013-05-13 02:35:33 AM
"if " that's the way it went down and he didn't just hit an unbelievable hot streak, the casino deserves to take it on the chin.

and all casinos everywhere should study the facts about this to either implement better safeguards, or ACTUALLY ADHERE TO THE SAFEGUARDS ALREADY IN PLACE!

"the dealer rotated the cards 180° at the request of the player, who claimed he was superstitious"

"can you rotate the cards, he's superstitious"
"Ahh no ma'am. I'm sorry"
"but he's Phil Ivey"
"no ma'am I can't. Place your bets."

"In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.

TommyymmoT: If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.


amen.
 
2013-05-13 02:54:05 AM
"We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.
 
2013-05-13 03:20:38 AM
I get it! He's black!
 
2013-05-13 03:41:37 AM
If someone manages to get the dealer to re-use the cards, they deserve what they get. What casino doesn't know to dump them after they're used?
 
2013-05-13 04:04:31 AM
If you want pure, uncorrupted, uncheatable randomness, every game needs to be played on a computer running a suitable random number generator (and tough security measures etc.) and nothing but a display and a big red button in front of they player that says "HIT ME" that they can press or not press.

Any frills included for showiness or tradition like physical cards and dealers and such are added at your own risk.
 
2013-05-13 04:14:01 AM
I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.  They will  cheat, lie and steal so that gamblers don't walk away with 'the casino's' money.

/didn't go to casinos when I lived in the US.
 
2013-05-13 04:22:15 AM

TommyymmoT: If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.

Same thing goes for card counting in blackjack.
Pretty much anyone who plays blackjack knows, if you draw a 20, you don't ask for another card, because the chances that the next card will be an ace, are pretty slim, so the game of blackjack itself, is actually card counting.

What a bunch of sore losers.
There are few things (trust me on this) more satisfying in life, than conning a con man.


This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.
 
2013-05-13 04:48:49 AM

calbert: "if " that's the way it went down and he didn't just hit an unbelievable hot streak, the casino deserves to take it on the chin.

and all casinos everywhere should study the facts about this to either implement better safeguards, or ACTUALLY ADHERE TO THE SAFEGUARDS ALREADY IN PLACE!

"the dealer rotated the cards 180° at the request of the player, who claimed he was superstitious"

"can you rotate the cards, he's superstitious"
"Ahh no ma'am. I'm sorry"
"but he's Phil Ivey"
"no ma'am I can't. Place your bets."

"In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.



Unless the extremely helpful casino staff had reason to be.
 
2013-05-13 05:51:35 AM

calbert: "In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.


This.  If they really did leave those cards in play for multiple days, particularly at such high stakes, then someone at the casino farked up royally (whether they were defective or not).  More likely, many people at the casino farked up royally, because something like that requires the approval of a pit boss at the least, more likely several persons above that level.  And that's not even going into the fact that the farking cards should be checked by the dealer & floor supervisor before they're even put into play, all on camera.

Baccarat has a minute house edge to begin with, so if they're going to allow bets so high then they need to be prepared to pay out some huge wins when a player hits a hot streak & quits while ahead.  And if their staff is too incompetent to properly safeguard the game, then again--that's the casino's fault.
 
2013-05-13 06:14:08 AM
So, basically a casino should never change out its cards, and it will also have a reason to cry foul and not pay anyone?!
 
2013-05-13 06:23:37 AM
So over three days the table never once changed decks? Shenanigans. Pay up.
 
2013-05-13 07:20:24 AM

Spad31: I get it! He's black!


THANKS HELLMUTH!
 
2013-05-13 07:31:06 AM
This man is a top rated card player, meaning he makes his living from cards. If the casino publicly accuses him of cheating at a card game (seemingly without evidence) they are recklessly causing him damages beyond the money he is owed.
 
2013-05-13 07:47:13 AM
So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.
 
2013-05-13 07:49:23 AM

Relatively Obscure: "We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.


Here in the states, at least, that won't happen unless the Indian tribes let the government regulate their casinos like the other magnates do.
 
2013-05-13 07:53:32 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.


They will mark them, usually by cutting a corner off or punching them.

You can buy them.  Though, I don't think Walmart carries them.  Check your local listings.
 
2013-05-13 07:53:39 AM

IlGreven: Relatively Obscure: "We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.

Here in the states, at least, that won't happen unless the Indian tribes let the government regulate their casinos like the other magnates do.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-13 07:54:46 AM
So how much of his winnings was Ivey going to pay the dealer? Or was the Chinese lady supposed to love the dealer long time, in lieu of cash?
 
2013-05-13 08:00:08 AM
The casino's suspicion is probably that the dealers were in on the scheme, and from the scant details given it sounds likely.
 
2013-05-13 08:06:08 AM
why do they let him play in the first place?
 
2013-05-13 08:21:34 AM
Punto banco is a sport?
 
2013-05-13 08:32:33 AM

I_Am_Weasel: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.

They will mark them, usually by cutting a corner off or punching them.

You can buy them.  Though, I don't think Walmart carries them.  Check your local listings.


It used to be that you could ask the pit boss and they'd give you a used set (after they had their corners cut or a hole punched in them or marked with a sharpie or something).  These days, though, a few bucks at the casino gift shop.

You can also generally get used dice, too, that have had a corner ground down.
 
2013-05-13 08:32:46 AM
Casinos are in the business of taking your money, and the method is unimportant.  Winners are not welcome back.  In fact winners aren't even welcome to their jackpots.
 
2013-05-13 08:43:54 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?


Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.
 
2013-05-13 08:45:14 AM

dookdookdook: If you want pure, uncorrupted, uncheatable randomness, every game needs to be played on a computer running a suitable random number generator (and tough security measures etc.) and nothing but a display and a big red button in front of they player that says "HIT ME" that they can press or not press.

Any frills included for showiness or tradition like physical cards and dealers and such are added at your own risk.


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/05/game-king/
 
2013-05-13 08:46:22 AM

Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.


Coincidentally, that's the same thing that happens to the strippers.
 
2013-05-13 08:52:25 AM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros: Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.

Coincidentally, that's the same thing that happens to the strippers.


Nah they just send the busted girls from the good clubs on Industrial to the really seedy ones in North Vegas, where the clientele slowly destroys them dollar by dollar.
 
2013-05-13 09:46:51 AM
Here, in an illustration created by The Daily Mail, is one possible way that the alleged scam could have unfolded:

How is it a scam?  Get better cards.
 
2013-05-13 09:47:57 AM

Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.


Some casinos don't bother to mar them, then sell them out on the east coast in dollar stores.  I've picked up decks from several Vegas casinos out here in WNY.

Could you buy a deck from, say, the Cosmopolitan at the local dollar store, then take it on your next Vegas jaunt and have a little card-switching fun?  Well....maybe.  I collect playing cards (I know, thrilling hobby) so I'd know if a deck was altered.  But these ones just don't seem to be changed in any way.  I'm thinking that these cards in fact aren't ones used in those casinos, and are of noticeably lower quality and so would stick out like a sore thumb.  With most casino cards, the red colors are very dark, and with these ones the reds aren't so much.  Why bother with the deception?  Beats me.
 
2013-05-13 09:51:21 AM
You're more likely to get payouts from your local mafia bookie than from an Indian Casino.
 
2013-05-13 09:51:38 AM

Rapmaster2000: How is it a scam?  Get better cards.


Well, it's scammy when you're bringing in a second person to claim superstition and asking for favors. IMO lying to gain an advantage and take money from anyone is scamming them.

But it does sound like the dealer needs a firing, at least.
 
2013-05-13 09:52:48 AM
Sports tab, how does it work?
 
2013-05-13 10:00:50 AM

fatalvenom: Sports tab, how does it work?


You mean poker isn't a sport? No wonder my blood pressure is two high triple digits.
 
2013-05-13 10:06:15 AM
How about a new illustration:

1. Casino unwittingly buys rogue cards
2. Casino pays the price for its lack of wit (with an illustration of Ivey holding fistfuls of money)
 
2013-05-13 10:16:53 AM
one possible way that the alleged scam could have unfolded

Somehow it's only a scam when the house loses.
 
2013-05-13 10:19:15 AM
Did they use the same deck of cards for 3 days??
 
2013-05-13 10:24:39 AM

Baron Harkonnen: I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.  They will  cheat, lie and steal so that gamblers don't walk away with 'the casino's' money.

/didn't go to casinos when I lived in the US.


Its why I hate spending vacation time in casinos, the gf and her mom like going, she usually wins a little bit from the casino but I know her mom pisses twice as much back playing slots.

If I'm spending money on a vacation I would rather experience other parts of the world instead of a farking casino.
 
2013-05-13 10:30:08 AM

Lost Thought 00: You're more likely to get payouts from your local mafia bookie than from an Indian Casino.


This.  And there's not a damned thing you can do about it.
 
2013-05-13 10:34:09 AM

TommyymmoT: If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.


Pretty much that!  The casino's complaining that their dealers weren't sharper than Ivey?  Their loss; someone with his perceptive abilities is going to exploit a weakness like that.

Doesn't always happen of course.  IIRC late in a WSOP ME he nailed either a full house or a flush, didn't see it and let that hand go.  Probably could've won it that year if he had seen it and played it out.
 
2013-05-13 10:39:39 AM

iron_city_ap: This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.


This is why the only time I'll step in a casino is to go head-to-head against another human being that's NOT the house.  They should just take it on the chin and move on.  The alternative (read: they win; but then Ivey issues a persona non grata on the casino to his friends/fellow players, which will soon shut down) is pretty hideous to contemplate.
 
2013-05-13 10:40:26 AM
read the 'terms of service' for a lot of online casinos/poker rooms.  it's quite funny.
 
2013-05-13 10:48:47 AM

I_Am_Weasel: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.

They will mark them, usually by cutting a corner off or punching them.

You can buy them.  Though, I don't think Walmart carries them.  Check your local listings.


I know some casinos will sell them in gift shops with the corners cut off like you said. I've heard someplaces will just shred them, then either recycle them or they will put them in cheesy souviners like pens or paperweights.
 
2013-05-13 10:50:40 AM
Ivey might have some trouble on this one, depending on how good the casino's lawyer is (probably good) and the judge's sense of moral rectitude.

If the issue of whether he KNEW of the flawed cards and purposefully acted upon that knowledge to win the money is not even in dispute, then it could lead one to conclude that he was not playing the game in the manner it is intended to be played, and therefore was knowingly cheating.
 
2013-05-13 10:54:21 AM

Rwa2play: iron_city_ap: This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.

This is why the only time I'll step in a casino is to go head-to-head against another human being that's NOT the house.  They should just take it on the chin and move on.  The alternative (read: they win; but then Ivey issues a persona non grata on the casino to his friends/fellow players, which will soon shut down) is pretty hideous to contemplate.


You'd think bad publicity from a top world player wouldn't be worth the loss. I can't think of a worse reputation for a casino to have than being one that doesn't pay out.
 
2013-05-13 10:58:29 AM

cefm: Ivey might have some trouble on this one, depending on how good the casino's lawyer is (probably good) and the judge's sense of moral rectitude.

If the issue of whether he KNEW of the flawed cards and purposefully acted upon that knowledge to win the money is not even in dispute, then it could lead one to conclude that he was not playing the game in the manner it is intended to be played, and therefore was knowingly cheating.


That's the part that is, in fact, in dispute. He does not claim any such thing. The casino is claiming that dispute, as a justification for withholding his winnings. There is no evidence to suggest that the dispute is justified - that's why the casino is paying fraud investigators to go over the table's tapes, to drum up evidence to support the justification.

The simple fact is that the casino doesn't want to pay out the money, even though they gave Ivey a receipt. The casino hopes that they can, for less than the cost of the winnings, introduce enough doubt in a court of law to justify their refusal of payment.
 
2013-05-13 11:03:12 AM

Igor Jakovsky: Rwa2play: iron_city_ap: This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.

This is why the only time I'll step in a casino is to go head-to-head against another human being that's NOT the house.  They should just take it on the chin and move on.  The alternative (read: they win; but then Ivey issues a persona non grata on the casino to his friends/fellow players, which will soon shut down) is pretty hideous to contemplate.

You'd think bad publicity from a top world player wouldn't be worth the loss. I can't think of a worse reputation for a casino to have than being one that doesn't pay out.


To claim that a respected high-stakes player is, in fact, cheating, is a big deal. If they cannot prove it beyond a shadow of doubt, that casino had better close the doors - not only will Ivey get his payout, but punitive damages (if his lawyer is any good), and other high-stakes players will avoid the casino like the plague.
 
2013-05-13 11:07:56 AM
The burden of proof is on the casino. The judge needs to require the casino to put at least three times the amount of winnings in an escrow account (to cover potential punitive damages and lawyer fees), and make them show all evidence that Mr. Ivey cheated. This is so far, a "he said-he said" situation, but the fact remains that Mr. Ivey possesses a receipt. If the casino cannot prove cheating beyond a doubt, it needs to pay the man his winnings, and for damages to his reputation.
 
2013-05-13 11:08:24 AM
In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.

So this was a decision that went above the dealers head, so they couldn't have been in on it. To me this whole thing sounds like a case of, "We lost a but load of money, find as many reasons as possible to not pay this out.". If I were Ivey I would also sue for slander, depending on if he can in England, because claiming that a pro card player cheated your casino is very detrimental to his reputation and career.
 
2013-05-13 11:11:39 AM
I like how people pretend it's damaging to his career. Sorry you guys lost a lot of money to a casino...but I'm pretty sure anyone who would've been dumb enough to play high-stakes games against Phil Ivey is still going to play against him.
 
2013-05-13 11:13:56 AM

ongbok: In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.

So this was a decision that went above the dealers head, so they couldn't have been in on it. To me this whole thing sounds like a case of, "We lost a but load of money, find as many reasons as possible to not pay this out.". If I were Ivey I would also sue for slander, depending on if he can in England, because claiming that a pro card player cheated your casino is very detrimental to his reputation and career.


England/the UK's laws on libel/slander are easier to prove than in the US.  Famously there was Elton John's case v. the Sun; they paid damages, court fees and posted an apology in their paper after they alleged that Elton had had underage boys sent to his room and he subsequently sued them for libel and defamation of character.
 
2013-05-13 11:13:56 AM

ongbok: In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.

So this was a decision that went above the dealers head, so they couldn't have been in on it. To me this whole thing sounds like a case of, "We lost a but load of money, find as many reasons as possible to not pay this out.". If I were Ivey I would also sue for slander, depending on if he can in England, because claiming that a pro card player cheated your casino is very detrimental to his reputation and career.


I believe it's actually significantly easier to sue for slander in the UK than in the states due to the whole "no official freedom of speech" thing
 
2013-05-13 11:26:12 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com
I also want to point out that real Bonds play Baccarat, not farking poker.
 
2013-05-13 11:31:37 AM
I don't much about this particular variant on the game, but baccarat is the easiest "skill" game to play in a casino. There's really only one rule you need to follow: bet the house.
 
2013-05-13 11:32:58 AM

Baron Harkonnen: I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.


The Indian nature of the casino had nothing to do with it. Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them. In this way, it's easy for a casino to know if a machine is malfunctioning or not, because its payouts deviate even slightly from the expected result. If the machine throws a jackpot when it wasn't supposed to, it's relatively straightforward for the casino (or, more likely, the machine's manufacturer) to walk into court, show that the algorithm wasn't supposed to show a jackpot at that point in play, and thus, prove the machine was malfunctioning. That's why all slot machines have a sign nearby that says that a malfunction voids all payouts.

The interesting thing is, if a malfunction can throw a jackpot when it isn't supposed to according to the algorithm, then logically, a malfunction can also cause a machine not to throw a jackpot when the algorithm says is was supposed to. Needless to say that when a casino is looking over its machine data for the day, and notices that a machine failed to deliver an expected jackpot, it doesn't go out of its way to find the player who was supposed to win a few hundred thousand bucks but didn't. One more little aspect to the house edge...
 
2013-05-13 11:54:51 AM

Trocadero: I also want to point out that real Bonds play Baccarat, not farking poker.


So did the Rat Pack.  Baccarat was the game amongst the rich for many years:

gaming.unlv.edu
/Frank Sinatra holding the Baccarat paddle , in case the poor picture quality doesn't make that clear
 
2013-05-13 12:08:27 PM
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the movie Kaleidoscope yet
 
2013-05-13 12:25:46 PM

Uzzah: The interesting thing is, if a malfunction can throw a jackpot when it isn't supposed to according to the algorithm, then logically, a malfunction can also cause a machine not to throw a jackpot when the algorithm says is was supposed to. Needless to say that when a casino is looking over its machine data for the day, and notices that a machine failed to deliver an expected jackpot, it doesn't go out of its way to find the player who was supposed to win a few hundred thousand bucks but didn't. One more little aspect to the house edge...


But if the casino doesn't fix that machine in a timely manner, the Regulators will bring significant fines, punishment and Bad PR down on the casino.

While casinos stack the deck against the player, they do it in the open.
 
2013-05-13 12:27:04 PM
Actually the rogue cards idea sounds kind of interesting.  I'm thinking if you own some factory in China that spits them out, you could covertly mark them or find some crazy way to do it (like marking on the card that was only visible if you were wearing a contact lens with a filter on it).  Track your customers and every so often drop in and win a few hundred thousand.  As long as you didn't get greedy and never cleaned a place out, you could clean up fairly well and they'd never notice.  Maybe just mark 1 in 20 decks and wander around the casino floor until you saw one of your marked decks in play, sit down, win a bit, move on.
 
2013-05-13 12:58:40 PM

ha-ha-guy: Actually the rogue cards idea sounds kind of interesting.  I'm thinking if you own some factory in China that spits them out, you could covertly mark them or find some crazy way to do it (like marking on the card that was only visible if you were wearing a contact lens with a filter on it).  Track your customers and every so often drop in and win a few hundred thousand.  As long as you didn't get greedy and never cleaned a place out, you could clean up fairly well and they'd never notice.  Maybe just mark 1 in 20 decks and wander around the casino floor until you saw one of your marked decks in play, sit down, win a bit, move on.


Casinos are usually incredibly vigilant. Some have banned people for merely winning big at a blackjack table, they're that paranoid of card counting. There is no way they wouldn't notice some guy sitting down at a table for a few hands and winning in an improbable string every time he does.
 
2013-05-13 01:04:44 PM

Uzzah: The Indian nature of the casino had nothing to do with it. Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them.


[citation needed]

 
2013-05-13 01:29:23 PM

ha-ha-guy: I'm thinking if you own some factory in China that spits them out, you could covertly mark them or find some crazy way to do it (like marking on the card that was only visible if you were wearing a contact lens with a filter on it).  Track your customers and every so often drop in and win a few hundred thousand.


I feel like if you have enough money to own factories and develop special contacts, this would be something you'd basically be doing just for the hell of it.
 
2013-05-13 01:39:55 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: magnates.

1.bp.blogspot.com


+1, made me laugh on a shiatty Monday. Thanks.
 
2013-05-13 02:05:13 PM
Uzzah:Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them.

No they're not, unless they're rigged and therefore illegal. The casinos can set a general percentage for the overall win/loss ratio, but there's still a random element involved in each play, or at least that's the idea.

Besides, trying to script each play in advance would be a tremendous waste of time and energy when the laws of probability are perfectly capable of making the casino plenty of money without any additional effort. I won't even get started on the potential for massive lawsuits if someone were to discover that the supposedly random results were actually scripted beforehand.
 
2013-05-13 02:27:02 PM

BStorm: Uzzah:Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them.

No they're not, unless they're rigged and therefore illegal. The casinos can set a general percentage for the overall win/loss ratio, but there's still a random element involved in each play, or at least that's the idea.

Besides, trying to script each play in advance would be a tremendous waste of time and energy when the laws of probability are perfectly capable of making the casino plenty of money without any additional effort. I won't even get started on the potential for massive lawsuits if someone were to discover that the supposedly random results were actually scripted beforehand.


They are random in the same sense that the C function rand() is random, which is to say, not random at all if you know the mathematical seed. That is how casinos can prove they have been tampered with. Otherwise, they wouldn't be capable of distinguishing a real win from a hacked win
 
2013-05-13 02:49:34 PM

dookdookdook: If you want pure, uncorrupted, uncheatable randomness, every game needs to be played on a computer running a suitable random number generator (and tough security measures etc.) and nothing but a display and a big red button in front of they player that says "HIT ME" that they can press or not press.

Any frills included for showiness or tradition like physical cards and dealers and such are added at your own risk.


That's how the State of Idaho requires Indian Casinos in the State to run Blackjack tables.   Goes much faster when there aren't real cards involved.  Harder to get a feel for how the table is going too.
 
2013-05-13 02:58:59 PM

Harv72b: calbert: "In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.

This.  If they really did leave those cards in play for multiple days, particularly at such high stakes, then someone at the casino farked up royally (whether they were defective or not).  More likely, many people at the casino farked up royally, because something like that requires the approval of a pit boss at the least, more likely several persons above that level.  And that's not even going into the fact that the farking cards should be checked by the dealer & floor supervisor before they're even put into play, all on camera.

Baccarat has a minute house edge to begin with, so if they're going to allow bets so high then they need to be prepared to pay out some huge wins when a player hits a hot streak & quits while ahead.  And if their staff is too incompetent to properly safeguard the game, then again--that's the casino's fault.


Hell, particularly on Baccarat (the english name for it).  The only time I played full baccarat (only available in highstakes for the reason I'm about to mention), they allowed players to flip their own cards.  Now... Baccarat players have a really weird way of revealing there cards that involve bending and folding the card in certain ways so that it's slowly revealed what the cards value is.  Because of this, each deck would be changed at the end of each shoe because they're literally 1/2 origami at that point.

Maybe I was just lucky and that's rare, but thats the only thing that really made the game fun.  Watching these Orientals screaming "monkey" and literally destroying house cards XD
 
2013-05-13 03:40:43 PM
Yeah the casino is realllly reaching on this one.   They will not win, their only out left is to shut up and pay up.  Then band Ivey from returning.   Seriously if that casino is any good they can make up that loss in a good weekend.
 
2013-05-13 03:48:02 PM

grimlock1972: Yeah the casino is realllly reaching on this one.   They will not win, their only out left is to shut up and pay up.  Then band Ivey from returning.   Seriously if that casino is any good they can make up that loss in a good weekend.


Banning Ivey is not good for the casino's future existence.  They should just suck it up and move on; they'll get that money back from all those that come in eventually.
 
2013-05-13 03:48:42 PM

Lost Thought 00: BStorm: Uzzah:Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them.

No they're not, unless they're rigged and therefore illegal. The casinos can set a general percentage for the overall win/loss ratio, but there's still a random element involved in each play, or at least that's the idea.

Besides, trying to script each play in advance would be a tremendous waste of time and energy when the laws of probability are perfectly capable of making the casino plenty of money without any additional effort. I won't even get started on the potential for massive lawsuits if someone were to discover that the supposedly random results were actually scripted beforehand.

They are random in the same sense that the C function rand() is random, which is to say, not random at all if you know the mathematical seed. That is how casinos can prove they have been tampered with. Otherwise, they wouldn't be capable of distinguishing a real win from a hacked win


That still doesn't make them scripted, which implies that the result for every single pull is already known in advance. Even if you know the exact seed that a slot machine uses to initialize the RNG, there's still a random element for each play, namely WHEN each play happens, since the generated numbers used to determine the results aren't picked until the play actually begins and that's not something that can be pre-determined.

Claiming that it's scripted is like taking a new deck of cards, shuffling it a few times, then standing at the exit of a sold-out football stadium and having every 50th person who leaves choose to take a card or not, and somehow knowing in advance which person is going to get the 7 of diamonds. Even if you didn't shuffle the cards, you'd still be almost incapable of predicting who is going to get the card. You know the initial state (52 cards, one 7 of diamonds, 45,000 people) but you can't predict the order in which people leave or who pulls a card and who doesn't.

I'm not a security expert, but I'd imagine detecting hacked wins would be a (relatively) simple matter of comparing recorded logs of the play against calculated results using the logged data. If someone managed to somehow change the payout numbers used or fake the timestamp it would become pretty obvious after the fact as the logged values wouldn't match up with calculations using the initial state. And if someone were capable of hacking the system to change the recorded initial state so as to cover their tracks, the casino probably wouldn't be able to tell anyway.
 
2013-05-13 03:54:23 PM

grimlock1972: Yeah the casino is realllly reaching on this one.   They will not win, their only out left is to shut up and pay up.  Then band Ivey from returning.   Seriously if that casino is any good they can make up that loss in a good weekend.


This assumes Ivey even WANTS to return.
 
2013-05-13 03:56:45 PM

zippolight2002: Maybe I was just lucky and that's rare, but thats the only thing that really made the game fun. Watching these Orientals screaming "monkey" and literally destroying house cards XD


I deal (mini) baccarat here in the U.S., and even when they can't touch the cards they're still screaming "monkey!!!" and pounding on the table.  On most tables the only English words you'll hear are "monkey", "30 to 1", "red light", "blue light", and "green light"...for face cards, a 9-0 win on the side bet, banker wins, player wins, and tie hand, respectively. :D

We have bacc tables on the regular floor, though they're still fairly high limit (usually $100 minimum bet).  But players are allowed to piggyback at those tables, so you'll often have 3 or more people stacking their chips together on each hand.  As far as players wrecking cards, in the carnival games (variants of poker where people play against the house, they are allowed to touch the cards, and we usually have to change decks at least every hour.
 
2013-05-13 04:01:46 PM

Uzzah: Baron Harkonnen: I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.

The Indian nature of the casino had nothing to do with it. Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them. In this way, it's easy for a casino to know if a machine is malfunctioning or not, because its payouts deviate even slightly from the expected result. If the machine throws a jackpot when it wasn't supposed to, it's relatively straightforward for the casino (or, more likely, the machine's manufacturer) to walk into court, show that the algorithm wasn't supposed to show a jackpot at that point in play, and thus, prove the machine was malfunctioning. That's why all slot machines have a sign nearby that says that a malfunction voids all payouts.

The interesting thing is, if a malfunction can throw a jackpot when it isn't supposed to according to the algorithm, then logically, a malfunction can also cause a machine not to throw a jackpot when the algorithm says is was supposed to. Needless to say that when a casino is looking over its machine data for the day, and notices that a machine failed to deliver an expected jackpot, it doesn't go out of its way to find the player who was supposed to win a few hundred thousand bucks but didn't. One more little aspect to the house edge...


There are plenty of ways to find if a machine has been messed with. Otherwise, all of the cases I can recall involved a big an obvious screwup, in the computer system rather than the machine, namely with large prize displays going off when the when a pennyslot or whatever that wasn't eligible won.
 
2013-05-13 04:03:56 PM

Yes please: The casino's suspicion is probably that the dealers were in on the scheme, and from the scant details given it sounds likely.


I'd believe that if not for the casino's admission that they did not change out the cards.  Again, that's a decision that's made well above the dealer level; in a normal U.S. casino you'd need to go at least two rungs up the ladder to the pit boss, but in such a high stakes game I'm sure it would require the shift manager's okay at a minimum.  For obvious reasons, no casino is going to allow an hourly employee to make decisions on a table where millions of dollars are at stake.
 
2013-05-13 04:22:09 PM
You guys realize that casinos buy cards in bulk right?

Thus, if a batch of cards were offcenter, replacing one deck would result in replacing it with another offcenter deck.
 
2013-05-13 04:36:46 PM

bacongood: You guys realize that casinos buy cards in bulk right?

Thus, if a batch of cards were offcenter, replacing one deck would result in replacing it with another offcenter deck.


That's not how mass production works.  One sheet being cut off-center does not equate to the next sheet also being defective, and in the case of a major casino we're talking about purchases of hundreds or even thousands of decks at a time.
 
2013-05-13 04:40:44 PM

gwowen: Uzzah: The Indian nature of the casino had nothing to do with it. Slot machines are deterministic -- that is, there is nothing random taking place within them. Every win or loss is pre-scripted before a player ever sits down at them.

[citation needed]


I may have been a bit misleading in my phrasing, but slot machines are deterministic, in the sense that they use pseudo-random number generators, rather than truly random ones. The machine generates a stream of "random" numbers derived from a seed and a formula that acts on that seed. For example, a seed could be the day of the month (13), appended to the ambient temperature of the processor upon startup (72.5 degrees), plus the current time in seconds to four digits (14.58), for a seed of 137251458. That seed is then processed by an algorithm (say, multiply seed by 1056342, divide by 23543, output the remainder, and re-set the seed to the integer value of your quotient, then repeat). But since they're just the products of a formula, those numbers aren't really random. If you know the seed and algorithm, you can produce the entire sequence by hand.

When a player initiates the game (by pressing the spin button or pulling the lever), the machine polls the number generator and pulls the next several numbers in the sequence, does a bit of transformative math on them, looks the result up on a table to decide what image to show the player on each reel, and checks for a win condition. The distribution of the entries in the lookup table essentially fix the odds on the machine -- a "loose" machine will have more entries in the lookup table that correspond to payout-related reel positions (e.g. bars, stars, etc.), and a "tighter" machine will have very few entries in the lookup table that correspond to such conditions (e.g. more of the numbers in the table will correspond to blank reel positions).

(Arguably, a manufacturer could "rig" a machine by setting the "random" sequence in such a way that no three consecutive numbers in it would generate a win condition. However, that would require more complex code than a simple "random" function that produces the sequence from the seed, and would be easily caught by the Gaming Commission's code review team. Also, it would make a machine that, players would eventually realize, isn't worth playing.)

It may be misleading for me to say "every win or loss is pre-scripted," as that kind of sounds like the machine just has a list of outcomes that it cycles through: "lose, lose, win 1x, lose, win 2x, lose, lose, lose, jackpot," etc. That's not the case. But it is accurate to say that, before the player ever presses the "spin" button, if you could tell a person with knowledge of the machine's algorithm two things: the seed and exact second (to the hundredths or thousandths of a second) that the player will press the button (e.g. the button press will occur exactly 2456.234 seconds after the machine starts up), that person could tell you what the outcome of the spin would be. That is, he could run the seed through the algorithm to produce the entire sequence, look up what the numbers will be 2456.234 seconds into that sequence, do the transformative math, and derive the result, all before the player actually presses the button. In that sense, the result is "pre-scripted" as in "capable of being known before the event occurs." Extremely difficult, and requiring precise timing to be correct, but capable of being known nonetheless.

That's how malfunctions can be checked. The machine records the precise moment that the player pushes the button and stores it in memory. From there, a person with knowledge of the random sequence can ascertain what the "random" numbers should have been at that moment in the sequence, determine what numbers should have been polled, look them up on the table, and ascertain whether the reels correctly showed what should have been the result. If not, the play is deemed a malfunction and the result voided. None of that would be possible if the machine operated in any truly random way.
 
2013-05-13 04:57:17 PM

dookdookdook: If you want pure, uncorrupted, uncheatable randomness, every game needs to be played on a computer running a suitable random number generator (and tough security measures etc.) and nothing but a display and a big red button in front of they player that says "HIT ME" that they can press or not press.

Any frills included for showiness or tradition like physical cards and dealers and such are added at your own risk.


...and 90% of the people who gamble and aren't in the "drunk and dumb" crowd (hint, if you're playing 6:5 blackjack, you might be in the drunk and dumb crowd) would instantly walk away.
 
2013-05-13 05:00:10 PM

meanmutton: I_Am_Weasel: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.

They will mark them, usually by cutting a corner off or punching them.

You can buy them.  Though, I don't think Walmart carries them.  Check your local listings.

It used to be that you could ask the pit boss and they'd give you a used set (after they had their corners cut or a hole punched in them or marked with a sharpie or something).  These days, though, a few bucks at the casino gift shop.

You can also generally get used dice, too, that have had a corner ground down.


Also some casinos will give them out for joining their player's club. After all, if there's anything I want to carry around a casino just before I sit down to play, it's a deck of cards.
 
2013-05-13 05:05:13 PM

Mateorocks: I don't much about this particular variant on the game, but baccarat is the easiest "skill" game to play in a casino. There's really only one rule you need to follow: bet the house.


Betting the house in Baccarat still has a house advantage.

Card counting with proper basic strategy and count deviations in Blackjack results in the player having the advantage.

Heck, just having basic strategy down in blackjack gives the house a lower advantage than Baccarat (about .5 to 0.6 percent [yes, less than 1 percent] for standard BJ rules vs around 1 percent for baccarat)

/Standard rules: 3:2, 6 decks, double any two cards, double after split, no resplit aces, no surrender.
//Would love to find a resplit aces casino in Southern California, but at least my local spot offers surrender.
 
2013-05-13 05:20:45 PM

Harv72b: bacongood: You guys realize that casinos buy cards in bulk right?

Thus, if a batch of cards were offcenter, replacing one deck would result in replacing it with another offcenter deck.

That's not how mass production works.  One sheet being cut off-center does not equate to the next sheet also being defective, and in the case of a major casino we're talking about purchases of hundreds or even thousands of decks at a time.


One sheet, when you are talking about playing cards, is 10k+ decks if it was an offcenter print job.

If it was an offcenter punch job... probably would go until a human noticed.
 
2013-05-13 06:52:49 PM

IAmRight: Rapmaster2000: How is it a scam?  Get better cards.

Well, it's scammy when you're bringing in a second person to claim superstition and asking for favors. IMO lying to gain an advantage and take money from anyone is scamming them.

But it does sound like the dealer needs a firing, at least.


Why is that a scam? It is taking advantage of something you notice that other people don't. And if the casino followed its own rules then they never would have rotated the cards. And when they did rotate the cards, then the casino should have taken a look.

It is no more a scam than a casino giving you free booze while you gamble so that you make poor decisions.
 
2013-05-13 07:02:53 PM

Harv72b: Yes please: The casino's suspicion is probably that the dealers were in on the scheme, and from the scant details given it sounds likely.

I'd believe that if not for the casino's admission that they did not change out the cards.  Again, that's a decision that's made well above the dealer level; in a normal U.S. casino you'd need to go at least two rungs up the ladder to the pit boss, but in such a high stakes game I'm sure it would require the shift manager's okay at a minimum.  For obvious reasons, no casino is going to allow an hourly employee to make decisions on a table where millions of dollars are at stake.


Yeah, I don't think it is (only) the dealers they'd be looking at.
 
2013-05-13 07:08:27 PM
Something fishy here...and of course, Yahoo doesn't even mention it so you don't even get the full story (unless my reading comprehension failed)


The woman who was also playing with him has been banned by at least two casinos apparently.


She also had a million dollar win voided in the US in 2011 which was upheld by a gaming commission.


I believe they caught on to the defects in the cards and exploited it to the fullest.  Whether or not that's cheating, I guess the court will decide that.  Still, stupid casino for not trashing the cards at the end of the night, or the dealer to acquiece to the playing the turn request.

/did that once in a friendly game of poker
//caught a defect in the aces and about half the face cards, I told my buddies to get a new deck or else I would clean them out that night
///got a new deck
////still cleaned them out
//still great friends
//six slashies
 
2013-05-13 10:09:02 PM
The casino seems to be arguing that they were not running a fair game.  "The cards were rigged".

It seems to me like a story like this would put them out of business.  "If you win, they won't pay out.  You'll be better off at the casino down the street".
 
2013-05-14 01:32:14 AM

Uzzah: It may be misleading for me to say "every win or loss is pre-scripted," as that kind of sounds like the machine just has a list of outcomes that it cycles through: "lose, lose, win 1x, lose, win 2x, lose, lose, lose, jackpot," etc. That's not the case. But it is accurate to say that, before the player ever presses the "spin" button, if you could tell a person with knowledge of the machine's algorithm two things: the seed and exact second (to the hundredths or thousandths of a second) that the player will press the button (e.g. the button press will occur exactly 2456.234 seconds after the machine starts up), that person could tell you what the outcome of the spin would be.


If you use a PRNG and an (essentially) random seed, the machines are not "scripted" in any meaningful sense of that word. The "win voided by malfunction" wins have tended to be where people win $UINT_MAX [ever wonder why those wins are so often $42.9m?) on a machine with a much lower prize limit.  And the casino's defences have never involved recreating the seed and showing that that sequence would not recur.

It's the seeding that means slot machines are random except by the very tightest mathematical definition of that word.  They certainly are NOT "scripted".
 
2013-05-14 09:39:03 AM

Cork on Fork: Why is that a scam?


Because you're lying in order to gain an advantage.

Part of the problem with the world is that people don't see that as a scam, just because the casino tends to come out ahead with the games in the long run. Or the whole "well, the dealer shouldn't have done whatever." Yeah, the dealer deserves to be fired, too.

You're basically saying if someone leaves a bank vault door open, that anyone happening by wouldn't be doing anything wrong by taking all the money from it.

LoR75: /did that once in a friendly game of poker
//caught a defect in the aces and about half the face cards, I told my buddies to get a new deck or else I would clean them out that night


See, it happens, but if you're actually gambling and not being a douchebag, then you let them know and you play fairly, like LoR75.
 
2013-05-14 09:50:34 AM

IAmRight: Cork on Fork: Why is that a scam?

Because you're lying in order to gain an advantage.

Part of the problem with the world is that people don't see that as a scam, just because the casino tends to come out ahead with the games in the long run. Or the whole "well, the dealer shouldn't have done whatever." Yeah, the dealer deserves to be fired, too.

You're basically saying if someone leaves a bank vault door open, that anyone happening by wouldn't be doing anything wrong by taking all the money from it.

LoR75: /did that once in a friendly game of poker
//caught a defect in the aces and about half the face cards, I told my buddies to get a new deck or else I would clean them out that night

See, it happens, but if you're actually gambling and not being a douchebag, then you let them know and you play fairly, like LoR75.



If you are playing baseball and notice that every time the pitcher throws a fastball he blinks first, are you in the wrong if you tell the batter?
 
2013-05-14 12:41:23 PM
Cork on Fork:


If you are playing baseball and notice that every time the pitcher throws a fastball he blinks first, are you in the wrong if you tell the batter?

Depends on how you tell him. Mashing a home run is a way of letting him know.
 
2013-05-14 12:55:33 PM

IAmRight: Cork on Fork: Why is that a scam?

Because you're lying in order to gain an advantage.

Part of the problem with the world is that people don't see that as a scam, just because the casino tends to come out ahead with the games in the long run. Or the whole "well, the dealer shouldn't have done whatever." Yeah, the dealer deserves to be fired, too.

You're basically saying if someone leaves a bank vault door open, that anyone happening by wouldn't be doing anything wrong by taking all the money from it.

LoR75: /did that once in a friendly game of poker
//caught a defect in the aces and about half the face cards, I told my buddies to get a new deck or else I would clean them out that night

See, it happens, but if you're actually gambling and not being a douchebag, then you let them know and you play fairly, like LoR75.


Because Phil was apparently with this woman, I think they knew what they were doing and exploited it.

I'm not sure where I stand, but yes on the morality issue, Phil should have said something, and not convinced them to keep the same deck.  Imagine his face that night when they said they would use the same deck?

I'm thinking at the very least the woman is banned from yet another casino, and they settle out of court with Phil for a part of his winnings.
 
2013-05-14 01:21:49 PM

Cork on Fork: IAmRight: Cork on Fork: Why is that a scam?

Because you're lying in order to gain an advantage.

Part of the problem with the world is that people don't see that as a scam, just because the casino tends to come out ahead with the games in the long run. Or the whole "well, the dealer shouldn't have done whatever." Yeah, the dealer deserves to be fired, too.

You're basically saying if someone leaves a bank vault door open, that anyone happening by wouldn't be doing anything wrong by taking all the money from it.

LoR75: /did that once in a friendly game of poker
//caught a defect in the aces and about half the face cards, I told my buddies to get a new deck or else I would clean them out that night

See, it happens, but if you're actually gambling and not being a douchebag, then you let them know and you play fairly, like LoR75.


If you are playing baseball and notice that every time the pitcher throws a fastball he blinks first, are you in the wrong if you tell the batter?


That's a human tell, and there's nothing wrong with that.  It's the same in poker.  If I see a guy that always parts his cards a certain way when he has a big hand, I put that information away and use it throughout the game.

When I play baseball on Sundays, and I know the pitcher cocks his arm a certain way when he throws a curveball, am I cheating, or identifying a tell in his delivery?

There is a significant difference between a "tell" and exploiting unfair equipment.

However, using your baseball analogy, and part of your name, if I know I grabbed a corked bat, since it's my "batting practice" bat, and proceed to mash, is that cheating?

I know I am using "enhanced" equipment (bat in this example, cards in Ivey's case) to tilt the odds in my favour.  Am I cheating by getting an unfair advantage with the equipment?  I still have to recognize the deal (pitch) and bet (swing) accordingly, but if I connect, the odds of me hitting a home run (or winning a sizeable bet) increase a fair bit.

Using a corked bat is definitely cheating.
I would say exploiting equipment regardless of sport would also be cheating.


The more I think of this, the more I believe Ivey and this woman knew exactly what they were doing, and exploited the equipment for their benefit.  I would be interested if the same dealer and pit boss were used as well.  If they were, I wouldn't be suprised if they colluded with Ivey and this woman.

I'll be surprised if Ivey wins this one in court.
 
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