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(Yahoo)   The house always wins. Unless it doesn't. Then things get lawyery   (sports.yahoo.com) divider line 92
    More: Interesting, Phil Ivey  
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5323 clicks; posted to Sports » on 13 May 2013 at 3:37 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-13 01:55:30 AM
If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.

Same thing goes for card counting in blackjack.
Pretty much anyone who plays blackjack knows, if you draw a 20, you don't ask for another card, because the chances that the next card will be an ace, are pretty slim, so the game of blackjack itself, is actually card counting.

What a bunch of sore losers.
There are few things (trust me on this) more satisfying in life, than conning a con man.
 
2013-05-13 02:02:57 AM
Done in one. The player has no obligation to inform the casino that their game is defective. Winning due to extra information isn't cheating, any more than card counting is. As long as a) the player doesn't manipulate the cards, b) the dealer doesn't do anything wrong, and c) there is no coercion for what the dealer does do, I can't see how the casino wins this.

The funny thing is that the house might have taken a nice loss here, but they could have used it to gain valuable information about their game so it didn't happen again. Now all they've done is chased away high rollers who know that they won't get their payout if they win. In the end, long-term, the house always wins. Numbers don't lie. If they're tight-up for $12 million they've got bigger problems than Phil Ivey, because it means that they can't make money at something that is mathematically guaranteed to make money.
 
2013-05-13 02:35:33 AM
"if " that's the way it went down and he didn't just hit an unbelievable hot streak, the casino deserves to take it on the chin.

and all casinos everywhere should study the facts about this to either implement better safeguards, or ACTUALLY ADHERE TO THE SAFEGUARDS ALREADY IN PLACE!

"the dealer rotated the cards 180° at the request of the player, who claimed he was superstitious"

"can you rotate the cards, he's superstitious"
"Ahh no ma'am. I'm sorry"
"but he's Phil Ivey"
"no ma'am I can't. Place your bets."

"In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.

TommyymmoT: If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.


amen.
 
2013-05-13 02:54:05 AM
"We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.
 
2013-05-13 03:20:38 AM
I get it! He's black!
 
2013-05-13 03:41:37 AM
If someone manages to get the dealer to re-use the cards, they deserve what they get. What casino doesn't know to dump them after they're used?
 
2013-05-13 04:04:31 AM
If you want pure, uncorrupted, uncheatable randomness, every game needs to be played on a computer running a suitable random number generator (and tough security measures etc.) and nothing but a display and a big red button in front of they player that says "HIT ME" that they can press or not press.

Any frills included for showiness or tradition like physical cards and dealers and such are added at your own risk.
 
2013-05-13 04:14:01 AM
I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.  They will  cheat, lie and steal so that gamblers don't walk away with 'the casino's' money.

/didn't go to casinos when I lived in the US.
 
2013-05-13 04:22:15 AM

TommyymmoT: If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.

If the game is legit enough when the player was behind, then it is legit enough when he's ahead.
They didn't seem to mind much when he was over $700k in the hole.

Same thing goes for card counting in blackjack.
Pretty much anyone who plays blackjack knows, if you draw a 20, you don't ask for another card, because the chances that the next card will be an ace, are pretty slim, so the game of blackjack itself, is actually card counting.

What a bunch of sore losers.
There are few things (trust me on this) more satisfying in life, than conning a con man.


This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.
 
2013-05-13 04:48:49 AM

calbert: "if " that's the way it went down and he didn't just hit an unbelievable hot streak, the casino deserves to take it on the chin.

and all casinos everywhere should study the facts about this to either implement better safeguards, or ACTUALLY ADHERE TO THE SAFEGUARDS ALREADY IN PLACE!

"the dealer rotated the cards 180° at the request of the player, who claimed he was superstitious"

"can you rotate the cards, he's superstitious"
"Ahh no ma'am. I'm sorry"
"but he's Phil Ivey"
"no ma'am I can't. Place your bets."

"In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.



Unless the extremely helpful casino staff had reason to be.
 
2013-05-13 05:51:35 AM

calbert: "In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play".

yeah, this casino deserves the hit they took.


This.  If they really did leave those cards in play for multiple days, particularly at such high stakes, then someone at the casino farked up royally (whether they were defective or not).  More likely, many people at the casino farked up royally, because something like that requires the approval of a pit boss at the least, more likely several persons above that level.  And that's not even going into the fact that the farking cards should be checked by the dealer & floor supervisor before they're even put into play, all on camera.

Baccarat has a minute house edge to begin with, so if they're going to allow bets so high then they need to be prepared to pay out some huge wins when a player hits a hot streak & quits while ahead.  And if their staff is too incompetent to properly safeguard the game, then again--that's the casino's fault.
 
2013-05-13 06:14:08 AM
So, basically a casino should never change out its cards, and it will also have a reason to cry foul and not pay anyone?!
 
2013-05-13 06:23:37 AM
So over three days the table never once changed decks? Shenanigans. Pay up.
 
2013-05-13 07:20:24 AM

Spad31: I get it! He's black!


THANKS HELLMUTH!
 
2013-05-13 07:31:06 AM
This man is a top rated card player, meaning he makes his living from cards. If the casino publicly accuses him of cheating at a card game (seemingly without evidence) they are recklessly causing him damages beyond the money he is owed.
 
2013-05-13 07:47:13 AM
So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.
 
2013-05-13 07:49:23 AM

Relatively Obscure: "We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.


Here in the states, at least, that won't happen unless the Indian tribes let the government regulate their casinos like the other magnates do.
 
2013-05-13 07:53:32 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.


They will mark them, usually by cutting a corner off or punching them.

You can buy them.  Though, I don't think Walmart carries them.  Check your local listings.
 
2013-05-13 07:53:39 AM

IlGreven: Relatively Obscure: "We played foolishly, so you don't win" should be illegal.

Here in the states, at least, that won't happen unless the Indian tribes let the government regulate their casinos like the other magnates do.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-13 07:54:46 AM
So how much of his winnings was Ivey going to pay the dealer? Or was the Chinese lady supposed to love the dealer long time, in lieu of cash?
 
2013-05-13 08:00:08 AM
The casino's suspicion is probably that the dealers were in on the scheme, and from the scant details given it sounds likely.
 
2013-05-13 08:06:08 AM
why do they let him play in the first place?
 
2013-05-13 08:21:34 AM
Punto banco is a sport?
 
2013-05-13 08:32:33 AM

I_Am_Weasel: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.

They will mark them, usually by cutting a corner off or punching them.

You can buy them.  Though, I don't think Walmart carries them.  Check your local listings.


It used to be that you could ask the pit boss and they'd give you a used set (after they had their corners cut or a hole punched in them or marked with a sharpie or something).  These days, though, a few bucks at the casino gift shop.

You can also generally get used dice, too, that have had a corner ground down.
 
2013-05-13 08:32:46 AM
Casinos are in the business of taking your money, and the method is unimportant.  Winners are not welcome back.  In fact winners aren't even welcome to their jackpots.
 
2013-05-13 08:43:54 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?


Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.
 
2013-05-13 08:45:14 AM

dookdookdook: If you want pure, uncorrupted, uncheatable randomness, every game needs to be played on a computer running a suitable random number generator (and tough security measures etc.) and nothing but a display and a big red button in front of they player that says "HIT ME" that they can press or not press.

Any frills included for showiness or tradition like physical cards and dealers and such are added at your own risk.


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/05/game-king/
 
2013-05-13 08:46:22 AM

Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.


Coincidentally, that's the same thing that happens to the strippers.
 
2013-05-13 08:52:25 AM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros: Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.

Coincidentally, that's the same thing that happens to the strippers.


Nah they just send the busted girls from the good clubs on Industrial to the really seedy ones in North Vegas, where the clientele slowly destroys them dollar by dollar.
 
2013-05-13 09:46:51 AM
Here, in an illustration created by The Daily Mail, is one possible way that the alleged scam could have unfolded:

How is it a scam?  Get better cards.
 
2013-05-13 09:47:57 AM

Rustico: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over?

Some are drilled (so they can't be substituted back into a live floor-game) or otherwise marred and sold In the gift shop.

Some are destroyed.


Some casinos don't bother to mar them, then sell them out on the east coast in dollar stores.  I've picked up decks from several Vegas casinos out here in WNY.

Could you buy a deck from, say, the Cosmopolitan at the local dollar store, then take it on your next Vegas jaunt and have a little card-switching fun?  Well....maybe.  I collect playing cards (I know, thrilling hobby) so I'd know if a deck was altered.  But these ones just don't seem to be changed in any way.  I'm thinking that these cards in fact aren't ones used in those casinos, and are of noticeably lower quality and so would stick out like a sore thumb.  With most casino cards, the red colors are very dark, and with these ones the reds aren't so much.  Why bother with the deception?  Beats me.
 
2013-05-13 09:51:21 AM
You're more likely to get payouts from your local mafia bookie than from an Indian Casino.
 
2013-05-13 09:51:38 AM

Rapmaster2000: How is it a scam?  Get better cards.


Well, it's scammy when you're bringing in a second person to claim superstition and asking for favors. IMO lying to gain an advantage and take money from anyone is scamming them.

But it does sound like the dealer needs a firing, at least.
 
2013-05-13 09:52:48 AM
Sports tab, how does it work?
 
2013-05-13 10:00:50 AM

fatalvenom: Sports tab, how does it work?


You mean poker isn't a sport? No wonder my blood pressure is two high triple digits.
 
2013-05-13 10:06:15 AM
How about a new illustration:

1. Casino unwittingly buys rogue cards
2. Casino pays the price for its lack of wit (with an illustration of Ivey holding fistfuls of money)
 
2013-05-13 10:16:53 AM
one possible way that the alleged scam could have unfolded

Somehow it's only a scam when the house loses.
 
2013-05-13 10:19:15 AM
Did they use the same deck of cards for 3 days??
 
2013-05-13 10:24:39 AM

Baron Harkonnen: I'm from Wisconsin, and I remember hearing about several cases where huge jackpots on slots were recalled because the machine was 'defective', and that stood up in court.  Indian tribal laws had something to do with the ruling, but still: casinos are ruthless.  They will  cheat, lie and steal so that gamblers don't walk away with 'the casino's' money.

/didn't go to casinos when I lived in the US.


Its why I hate spending vacation time in casinos, the gf and her mom like going, she usually wins a little bit from the casino but I know her mom pisses twice as much back playing slots.

If I'm spending money on a vacation I would rather experience other parts of the world instead of a farking casino.
 
2013-05-13 10:30:08 AM

Lost Thought 00: You're more likely to get payouts from your local mafia bookie than from an Indian Casino.


This.  And there's not a damned thing you can do about it.
 
2013-05-13 10:34:09 AM

TommyymmoT: If I were the judge, not only would I kick the case out of court, I would award punitive damages against the casino.


Pretty much that!  The casino's complaining that their dealers weren't sharper than Ivey?  Their loss; someone with his perceptive abilities is going to exploit a weakness like that.

Doesn't always happen of course.  IIRC late in a WSOP ME he nailed either a full house or a flush, didn't see it and let that hand go.  Probably could've won it that year if he had seen it and played it out.
 
2013-05-13 10:39:39 AM

iron_city_ap: This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.


This is why the only time I'll step in a casino is to go head-to-head against another human being that's NOT the house.  They should just take it on the chin and move on.  The alternative (read: they win; but then Ivey issues a persona non grata on the casino to his friends/fellow players, which will soon shut down) is pretty hideous to contemplate.
 
2013-05-13 10:40:26 AM
read the 'terms of service' for a lot of online casinos/poker rooms.  it's quite funny.
 
2013-05-13 10:48:47 AM

I_Am_Weasel: AverageAmericanGuy: So what happens to casino cards after the day is over? Do they toss them in the trash? Incinerate them? Give them to charity?

Because I need some cards.

They will mark them, usually by cutting a corner off or punching them.

You can buy them.  Though, I don't think Walmart carries them.  Check your local listings.


I know some casinos will sell them in gift shops with the corners cut off like you said. I've heard someplaces will just shred them, then either recycle them or they will put them in cheesy souviners like pens or paperweights.
 
2013-05-13 10:50:40 AM
Ivey might have some trouble on this one, depending on how good the casino's lawyer is (probably good) and the judge's sense of moral rectitude.

If the issue of whether he KNEW of the flawed cards and purposefully acted upon that knowledge to win the money is not even in dispute, then it could lead one to conclude that he was not playing the game in the manner it is intended to be played, and therefore was knowingly cheating.
 
2013-05-13 10:54:21 AM

Rwa2play: iron_city_ap: This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.

This is why the only time I'll step in a casino is to go head-to-head against another human being that's NOT the house.  They should just take it on the chin and move on.  The alternative (read: they win; but then Ivey issues a persona non grata on the casino to his friends/fellow players, which will soon shut down) is pretty hideous to contemplate.


You'd think bad publicity from a top world player wouldn't be worth the loss. I can't think of a worse reputation for a casino to have than being one that doesn't pay out.
 
2013-05-13 10:58:29 AM

cefm: Ivey might have some trouble on this one, depending on how good the casino's lawyer is (probably good) and the judge's sense of moral rectitude.

If the issue of whether he KNEW of the flawed cards and purposefully acted upon that knowledge to win the money is not even in dispute, then it could lead one to conclude that he was not playing the game in the manner it is intended to be played, and therefore was knowingly cheating.


That's the part that is, in fact, in dispute. He does not claim any such thing. The casino is claiming that dispute, as a justification for withholding his winnings. There is no evidence to suggest that the dispute is justified - that's why the casino is paying fraud investigators to go over the table's tapes, to drum up evidence to support the justification.

The simple fact is that the casino doesn't want to pay out the money, even though they gave Ivey a receipt. The casino hopes that they can, for less than the cost of the winnings, introduce enough doubt in a court of law to justify their refusal of payment.
 
2013-05-13 11:03:12 AM

Igor Jakovsky: Rwa2play: iron_city_ap: This. Casinos go from 0 to epic butthurt in record time. fark them. They openly exploit an advantage but cry foul when a player does the exact same thing. If he was playing within the rules of the game, its fair.

This is why the only time I'll step in a casino is to go head-to-head against another human being that's NOT the house.  They should just take it on the chin and move on.  The alternative (read: they win; but then Ivey issues a persona non grata on the casino to his friends/fellow players, which will soon shut down) is pretty hideous to contemplate.

You'd think bad publicity from a top world player wouldn't be worth the loss. I can't think of a worse reputation for a casino to have than being one that doesn't pay out.


To claim that a respected high-stakes player is, in fact, cheating, is a big deal. If they cannot prove it beyond a shadow of doubt, that casino had better close the doors - not only will Ivey get his payout, but punitive damages (if his lawyer is any good), and other high-stakes players will avoid the casino like the plague.
 
2013-05-13 11:07:56 AM
The burden of proof is on the casino. The judge needs to require the casino to put at least three times the amount of winnings in an escrow account (to cover potential punitive damages and lawyer fees), and make them show all evidence that Mr. Ivey cheated. This is so far, a "he said-he said" situation, but the fact remains that Mr. Ivey possesses a receipt. If the casino cannot prove cheating beyond a doubt, it needs to pay the man his winnings, and for damages to his reputation.
 
2013-05-13 11:08:24 AM
In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.

So this was a decision that went above the dealers head, so they couldn't have been in on it. To me this whole thing sounds like a case of, "We lost a but load of money, find as many reasons as possible to not pay this out.". If I were Ivey I would also sue for slander, depending on if he can in England, because claiming that a pro card player cheated your casino is very detrimental to his reputation and career.
 
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