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(Chicago Trib)   Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local church." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 52
    More: Interesting, supreme courts, Wisconsin, local churches, air conditionings, 1st amendment, Muslim Mosque, graduation, establishment of religion  
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3135 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 May 2013 at 3:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-05-12 01:45:57 PM  
9 votes:
"Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"
2013-05-12 02:48:46 PM  
7 votes:
FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.

i.imgur.com

Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.
2013-05-12 02:01:14 PM  
5 votes:
Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.
2013-05-12 04:11:58 PM  
4 votes:
Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.
2013-05-12 03:19:44 PM  
4 votes:

maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.




How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.
2013-05-12 02:25:14 PM  
4 votes:

CruiserTwelve: My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.


The courts don't really have too much of a beef with bible thumping at private schools. It's when all the Jesus pageantry is happening at a public school (paid for by taxpayer dollars) that makes the courts go full activist.

Likewise for groups like the ACLU, FRFF, etc. You can violate Matthew 6:5-6 to your heart's content and they won't even bat an eyelid at you, just so long as you don't spend so much as one penny in public funds to do so.
2013-05-12 08:03:53 PM  
3 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Mail the diplomas home and fark the hoopla.  Nobody goes through 12 years of schooling dreaming about that "Big Day."


When I graduated from high school back in the caveman days (1980), my parents and bunches of other relatives were at the ceremony. I was one of the first generation to graduate from high school (my father never did, my mother graduated from a "training school - the district wouldn't allow where the black kids went to be called "high school" like the white kids place) with honors or at all, and it was important. I went to that ceremony not just for me, but more importantly for them.

When I graduated from college in may of 2012 after lots of life happening and 6 years of busting my ass to get my magna cum laude while living on potatoes, generic salami and cheese for months at a time, that was important too. I went to that ceremony, and I enjoyed the living f*ck out of it, wishing it would never end. Then I partied for two days straight with various classmates, since I was usually the only one old enough to buy beer without ID.

Point is that some people take a lot of stuff for granted. If you were fortunate enough to live and grow up in a household where everyone graduated from high school and then went off to college as if that was the norm, I'm happy for you. For some of us though, these ceremonies are important because we never thought we would get here. There are still families here who are having their first high school graduation ever - in 2013 -  and will attend when their graduate walks down to get their diplomas this month. It is important to them, and they deserve to celebrate it.
2013-05-12 03:14:27 PM  
3 votes:

maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.


It seemed rather clear.
No state religion.
You can be any religion that you want.
You can pray to any god you want.
Or no god at all.

If you are confused about what that means look up religious persecution and read about the Taliban, Saud Arabia, China, USSR, recent Coptic Church attacks, or any number of cases in recent history where people died because they refused to follow the state LAWS on religion.

or, even simpler
travel to saud arabia
stand in the street on a busy day and proclaim that islam is false religion, that mohammed is a false profit and that JESUS IS GOD.
write back to us with pics
we will wait here where it is safe
2013-05-12 02:06:09 PM  
3 votes:
So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it
2013-05-13 01:48:20 AM  
2 votes:
I am way too late to this thread for anyone to even take notice but i have been a lurker on this site for so long that when ever an article is posted here about something i have first-hand knowledge of i am compelled to respond.

my mom brought me to Elmbrook Church from the time i was too young to remember till the time i was old enough to demand an alternative. i grew up there. it is one scary and very farked up place. not in a haunted house way. in a stepford wives way.

it is a mega-church, and pridefully so, in every sense of the word. my mom sought grief counseling and was manipulated and emotionally abused by the pastoral staff into believing that my dad left her because she didn't provide a warm and wholesome enough alternative to the fast and fun lifestyle he craved (drugs and sluts. dad loved 'em).

my brother was in the middle school fellowship program run by a "popular and charismatic" youth leader (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=19991030&id=hK caAAAAIBA J&sjid=Wy8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5584,1853698) who years later committed suicide by wrapping his head in plastic after he was found to have molested kids in his charge. as a quick google search will reveal, this was not the first or last time the youth fellowship program was corrupted by perverts.

i am not a fundie and never have been but my mom is and was, though even she wouldn't step foot in this church again.

i don't have only negative views of the place. there were plenty of other interesting kids i met who were similarly compelled to attend by their hoodwinked parents. the highlights of my spiritual upbringing include my first hit of pot, my first taste of 'tang, and a healthy cynicism of anything and everything "evangelical."

as a former taxpayer in the state of wisconsin, in no farking way would i support any money, taxpayer or otherwise, continuing to fund this cult. i can understand why people would want to rent the space. it's massive and pristine. it doesn't even have as much religious iconography as your run-of-the-mill Catholic church. but it is a blight on southeastern wisconsin and an embarrassment to any self-respecting spiritual person, Christian or otherwise.

use the farking gym, New Berlin. It might be uncomfortable in warm weather but you should be way more uncomfortable using this temple of false prophecy
2013-05-12 04:35:43 PM  
2 votes:
From another article:

Americans United explained that holding graduations in the religious environment of the church violates the Constitution. The mega-church outside Milwaukee failed to remove religious symbols and texts during the graduation ceremonies. In fact, students and parents sat in pews with Bibles and hymnal books directly in front of them, and also saw church promotional materials telling children that they were "God's Little Lambs" and inviting all attendees to return to the church so that they can "know how to become a Christian."

Elmbrook Church even displayed a large cross, which church officials refused to cover, in the sanctuary where graduation ceremonies were held.

The mega-church also attacks the beliefs and identities of some of the students and parents who had to go to the church to attend their graduations. The church condemns atheists as people "who think they are smarter than God." It refers to homosexuality as "not an acceptable lifestyle" and "contrary to God's will."

Americans United noted that there are many non-religious facilities available for the graduation ceremonies, and other school districts in the area make use of them.

...

Writing for the majority, Judge Joel M. Flaum said holding a public school commencement in the Elmbrook Church sanctuary conveyed "an impermissible message of endorsement" of religion and was "religiously coercive."
2013-05-12 04:06:36 PM  
2 votes:

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


The fact the state of WI took a hatchet to the education budget probably didn't help fix the gym that is falling apart.
2013-05-12 03:56:16 PM  
2 votes:
So say I don't belong to that church and don't want to be forced to go there for graduation. Now what? Have I not earned my opportunity to clomp across the stage? Has graduation became a privilege to be granted based on other criteria?
2013-05-12 03:23:47 PM  
2 votes:

Nabb1: Lionel Mandrake: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

They might, sure, but I guess you wouldn't know what a particular church would do unless you asked.


The church might not have a problem, but FOX news would be swarming around like flies on shiat.  Hannity would probably broadcast from the church.  I don't even want to think about where Beck would go with this.
2013-05-12 03:16:56 PM  
2 votes:

remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.

Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.


i159.photobucket.com

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

2013-05-12 03:08:16 PM  
2 votes:

Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it


THIS

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


THIS

Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"


THIS

CruiserTwelve: My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.


THIS!

Nabb1: The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May,


THIS

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


Because the money which should be spent on schools is being spent on churches.
Public or private, people determine where assets are allocated. They are choosing to spend money on magic sky potatoes, rather than education.
(Couldn't they have upgraded their school gym and rented the gym out to the church on the weekend? LOLOLOL)

So now for a couple of quick questions which were NOT addressed in the article:
1) how much is the school paying to rent the church?
2) if they are renting the space, then public money is being given to a private church and I have HUGE problems with this on many levels.
3) free or for a fee, do they make the space available to other groups for the same cost? why not?

shudder
It would be awesome if SCOTUS came down 9-0 against this and used one and all of the arguments presented here.
1) farkem, do it outside or in the stuffy gym like everyone used to do
2) you WANT CHURCH in your education, do like you are supposed to do, private religious schools.

HOW FARKING HARD IS THIS???

Do you notice that this is almost always protestants breaking this law and not Catholics?
Farking cheap stealing bastards.

/the final joke on those assholes would be establishing Roman Catholic as the one true faith of America!!!!!
2013-05-12 02:37:26 PM  
2 votes:
I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?
2013-05-12 02:07:46 PM  
2 votes:
My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.
2013-05-12 02:00:49 PM  
2 votes:

Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"


To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:

w3.campusexplorer.com
2013-05-12 01:57:36 PM  
2 votes:
Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.
2013-05-12 01:30:55 PM  
2 votes:
I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.
2013-05-13 12:26:36 AM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: This idea that "the law is the law and needs to be applied evenly everywhere for everyone" is really wrong and needs to be stopped.


WTF?
2013-05-12 11:41:12 PM  
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.

Do you speak for all two billion Christians?

There are people in America, lots of them, that boycott stores who say "happy holidays."  You bet your ass plenty of Christians would shiat a brick - f*ck, they'd shiat the Great Wall of China - if they heard graduation was going to be held at mosque.  How you feel isn't relevant.


So my opinion doesn't count, but the imaginary Christians in your head do?  Ok there, Derpy McDerptard.
2013-05-12 10:10:42 PM  
1 votes:

Spanky_McFarksalot: if the  school pays the church to use the facility and if there are any christian symbols in view during the ceremony, then yes, I would say it violates the 1st amendment. I also find it hard to believe they can't find another place to hold it.


that might be where the fun begins
other places might charge, while the church might be "free"
the church and the church going parents might want to have the ceremony in the church, what better way to praise god and preach to the unwashed masses.
2013-05-12 09:19:49 PM  
1 votes:
So, our public/secular infrastructure is crumbling and we're resorting to our religious institutions to fill the gap left by an increasingly inept and distant government?

Is this twenty-first century America, or fifth-century Gaul?
2013-05-12 08:26:54 PM  
1 votes:

Bloody Templar: I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church. The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons). Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy. It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.


No. This is completely and utterly factually incorrect. While I am an atheist, I grew up in the CofC, and my entire extended family attends the CofC. The CofC never at any time had anything to do with the Mormon faith. The CofC came about as a result of the Restoration movement in the late 19th century US, when people wanted to get rid of the hierarchy involved in some organized churches across congregations, and also wanted to return to what they believed was how the 1st century Christians worshiped. This had absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism.

Having said that, my 8th grade (public school) graduation was held in the local CofC, and my (public) high school was held in the auditorium of the local CofC-affiliated university (which was also used for daily mandatory chapel services for all students, so some might consider it a church). One of the advantages to using the CofC buildings is that they are almost entirely devoid of religious symbols and iconography - no steeples, crucifixes, etc.

Check out the wiki if you're curious, it's pretty accurate. You've been seriously misinformed about the CofC if you think it had at any point anything to do with the Mormon church.
2013-05-12 07:45:50 PM  
1 votes:
Another cherry-picked "news" story to make the separation of church and state look like the bad guy, ladies and gentlemen.
2013-05-12 07:35:58 PM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: jmr61: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You may be "libby lib" but that doesn't mean you and no one else is ever going to drag me or my non-existent kids into a church to graduate from a public school.

IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
AND IT'S A GOOD LAW.

You better read the law again, snookums. Graduating kids from a public school, even at a church, is totally legal so long as it meets the Lemon test:

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. The burden is not on the church. It's on the school. And so long as the school can show that they had a secular purpose in choosing the church building (more room, better parking, air conditioning, whatever); that they were not "advancing or inhibiting religion" (ensured that religious symbols were covered, Bibles or Torahs removed from view); and there was no "excessive entanglement" with religion (no special recognition for Church members, no advertising in the program)....then there is NOTHING that would stop the school using the church for graduation ceremonies.

Except that it upsets the delicate sensibilities of people like you, who think that acknowledging the existence of a god at all is the same as forcing you to worship against your will.


Say a Muslim mosque offers its services to host a graduation.  If the school turns them down flat, it violates the second prong of the Lemon test (as it advances Christianity while inhibiting Islam). If the school accepts them, it is on the slippery slope of violating the third prong of the Lemon test (especially if a Jewish synagogue, a Wiccan coven, and other denominations of Christianity chip in to volunteer their gatherings for graduations).  Either way, it would fail the Lemon test in this regard.

Now, are the circumstances important enough that this distinction changes if no other religious entity offers their services?  What if, instead of the mosque, the owner of a local hotel offers his dance hall for the graduation? The dance hall has no affiliation with any religion (though it often hosts wedding receptions and Sunday brunches), making it a true "non-denominational" choice for a graduation. Would turning a secular space down flat in favor of a space hosted by a religious entity in itself violate prong 2 of the Lemon test? Might it violate prong 3?
2013-05-12 06:51:02 PM  
1 votes:

Nabb1: For purely secular purposes, it probably would be so long as the rental price was reasonable.


No, because you're using tax payer money to partake in commerce with an organization that exists solely for religious purposes. They are not a business, they are a religious organization.
2013-05-12 05:11:50 PM  
1 votes:

Radioactive Ass: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.

Hold it in a movie theater and the theater will have posters for movies all over the walls and might even invite the people back to watch a movie. So what. It doesn't mean that you now have to come back there to watch a movie that you're not interested in. Sheesh, get a thicker skin.

HairBolus: I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?

Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you ask them, and more importantly, why would those groups even want to rent a room of that size from them in the first place (other than to cause trouble, which would be reason enough to not rent it to them).


The Circuit Court disagrees with your "get a thicker skin" legal argument.
2013-05-12 05:08:19 PM  
1 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.


Hold it in a movie theater and the theater will have posters for movies all over the walls and might even invite the people back to watch a movie. So what. It doesn't mean that you now have to come back there to watch a movie that you're not interested in. Sheesh, get a thicker skin.

HairBolus: I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?


Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you ask them, and more importantly, why would those groups even want to rent a room of that size from them in the first place (other than to cause trouble, which would be reason enough to not rent it to them).
2013-05-12 04:50:14 PM  
1 votes:

Radioactive Ass: If the issue is that there was a cross present and nothing else then I don't have an issue with it. The event isn't about the cross at all. If the school was getting a substantial discount over other entities for using the same space for the same amount of time then there may be a problem (unless the discount was because they had made a deal to do it there every year. My pool league had that type of deal with the location where we held our banquets, kinda a volume deal if you will).

A room is a room. If you need a place that can seat 500 people there isn't going to be a whole lot of options available for most people. As long as the bibles are put down and there is no proselytizing going on outside of the normal non-denominational benediction type thing which is done at many govt functions, including congress every day that it's on the clock, then I don't see the problem. It's not like looking at a cross is going to suddenly make you want to tithe 10% and go door to door waking people up on Saturday morning to talk to them about god.


Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.
2013-05-12 04:49:35 PM  
1 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: From another article:

Writing for the majority, Judge Joel M. Flaum said holding a public school commencement in the Elmbrook Church sanctuary conveyed "an impermissible message of endorsement" of religion and was "religiously coercive."


So the judge felt that having their religious freedom trampled was a bit more than the slightest of unpleasantries?  He must have read the Constitution.

My personal relationship with Jesus allows me to share whispered jokes with him about the folks in this thread who probably think of themselves as Christians.  He loves you all the same, but even He can't help but giggle when you guys get your holy rolling
2013-05-12 04:43:03 PM  
1 votes:
Pussies. My high school graduation was held at the football field in the middle of the afternoon during a typical hot, muggy May day in southwest Virginia.
2013-05-12 04:42:16 PM  
1 votes:

Tumunga: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am intellectuallycrippled by stereotypes and unable to divorce my partisanship from the issues.

2013-05-12 04:32:28 PM  
1 votes:

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


Here's the thing... this isn't about endorsing a particular religion.  Churches make some people uncomfortable, I don't like going into them.  I have and will for two reasons, weddings and funerals, and that's out of respect for the people involved in those events.   High school graduation, though, shouldn't be something that someone is forced to go into a church to attend.

/my high school graduation was in a church
//they made the atheist salutatorian say a prayer
///fark the south
2013-05-12 04:20:42 PM  
1 votes:

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am...etc.
2013-05-12 04:08:00 PM  
1 votes:
Mail the diplomas home and fark the hoopla.  Nobody goes through 12 years of schooling dreaming about that "Big Day."
2013-05-12 04:07:09 PM  
1 votes:
My friend's son graduated from high school last year, and the ceremony was held at a church.  When I asked why, he replied, "Welcome to Georgia!"
2013-05-12 04:03:29 PM  
1 votes:

Nabb1: TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.

The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.


Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed doesn't bother you a bit but a little heat makes you go all wilty?  I stopped believing much of anything you said years ago, but I'm inclined to believe you on this one
2013-05-12 04:02:18 PM  
1 votes:
DarwiOdrade:On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Because we cant disenfranchise the job creators and unfortunately it seems like we do unless we loan them the money for their education. Then it is valued VERY highly at 3.75% interest
2013-05-12 04:00:02 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.

[i.imgur.com image 492x348]

Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.


Not to mention it's Elmbrook, you get top flight HVAC people out there like a shot just by passing the hat at a PTA meeting,
2013-05-12 03:59:31 PM  
1 votes:

cman: School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.


They were going to take a page out of Carrie, and trick some Muslim kid onstage and dump a big bucket of holy water on them, while a priest ran up and baptized them.
2013-05-12 03:40:28 PM  
1 votes:

Nabb1: If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.


Right.  It's easier to believe that covering up the cross was suggested and rejected than to believe no one ever thought of it.
2013-05-12 03:10:29 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

That is certainly true, although churches (usually liberal Protestant ones) that host organizational meetings (like AA or other ones) do them is classrooms or basements--not in the altar/worship space.


THIS

and my guess is that few people would have a problem with this.
but in the end, farkem. bunch of whiney little biatches. too hot, might rain, blah blah blah blah
welcome to the real world

/why havent these people built religious private schools so they can have religious education for their children? why do they keep stealing from everyone else?
2013-05-12 03:09:05 PM  
1 votes:
I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.
2013-05-12 03:05:46 PM  
1 votes:

Britney Spear's Speculum: Uranus Megahertz: Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.

Giving tax payer money directly to the chuch.  Yeah, that's legal.


For purely secular purposes, it probably would be so long as the rental price was reasonable.
2013-05-12 02:46:57 PM  
1 votes:

Uranus Megahertz: Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.


Giving tax payer money directly to the chuch.  Yeah, that's legal.
2013-05-12 02:39:57 PM  
1 votes:

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?



THIS20.
2013-05-12 02:36:44 PM  
1 votes:

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.
2013-05-12 02:26:01 PM  
1 votes:
School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.
2013-05-12 01:35:46 PM  
1 votes:
photos1.blogger.com

doesn't appreciate being dragged into murky legal disputes.
 
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