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(Chicago Trib)   Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local church." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 201
    More: Interesting, supreme courts, Wisconsin, local churches, air conditionings, 1st amendment, Muslim Mosque, graduation, establishment of religion  
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3134 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 May 2013 at 3:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-12 05:45:34 PM  

Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.


I think they worship golden idols of Mohammed, Termagent, and Apollo.
 
2013-05-12 05:48:17 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.

Well, shiat...the SCOTUS has been getting it wrong for decades!!  You should get to DC and straighten those idiots out!!

wtf?   they got Lamb's Chapel, Rosenberger v. U Va, Westside v. Mergins and WIdmar v. Vincent right.


wtf do those cases have to do with this case?  You're comparing apples and toasters.
 
2013-05-12 05:51:47 PM  

HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?


Technically, Knights of Columbus is a Catholic organization.  Not a church, sure, but still might make some people uncomfortable.

I'm a Freemason.  I'm sure if someone used a lodge for something like this, they'd be freaking out about teaching kids demon worship or some damned ridiculous thing.

I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church.  The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons).  Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy.  It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.
 
2013-05-12 06:01:17 PM  

Bloody Templar: HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?

Technically, Knights of Columbus is a Catholic organization.  Not a church, sure, but still might make some people uncomfortable.

I'm a Freemason.  I'm sure if someone used a lodge for something like this, they'd be freaking out about teaching kids demon worship or some damned ridiculous thing.

I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church.  The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons).  Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy.  It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.


I've never been in a church that was "just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais."  Usually, at least at the ones I've been to, there's a lot of religious decor that would be inappropriate at a government event, even if the clergy themselves are uninvolved.  Knights of Columbus may be a nominally religious organization, but KoC halls (or at least my local one) usually aren't decorated in an overtly religious manner, nor is the building's primary purpose to be a house of worship.

And DeVry, being a private institution, can hold their event wherever they damn well please.  This, on the other hand, is a public school.
 
2013-05-12 06:04:52 PM  
Bloody Templar:I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church.  The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons).  Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy.  It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.

That's not a public, tax-payer supported institution.
 
2013-05-12 06:07:25 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.


Well they are trying to prohibit it.
 
2013-05-12 06:09:21 PM  
My voting precinct was First Assembly of God Church. Felt good to cast a vote there for the Muslim Atheist Fascist Socialist Communist Fartbama.
 
2013-05-12 06:14:27 PM  

maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.


In what way?
 
2013-05-12 06:14:54 PM  

HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?


This a pretty wealthy end of the area; they don't want their kids having their graduation in some dingy beer hall.

/VFW hall... what are we, famers?
 
2013-05-12 06:20:09 PM  

namatad: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

It seemed rather clear.
No state religion.
You can be any religion that you want.
You can pray to any god you want.
Or no god at all.

If you are confused about what that means look up religious persecution and read about the Taliban, Saud Arabia, China, USSR, recent Coptic Church attacks, or any number of cases in recent history where people died because they refused to follow the state LAWS on religion.

or, even simpler
travel to saud arabia
stand in the street on a busy day and proclaim that islam is false religion, that mohammed is a false profit and that JESUS IS GOD.
write back to us with pics
we will wait here where it is safe


I think you mistake my meaning. We the collective peoples of the US are allowed to worship or not, but the constitution forbades the state from stopping or forcing any religion upon the people. So if a school wants its graduation in a church then the state cannot help nor hinder that process. The 1950's Supreme court ruled was that prayer would not be allowed in school, I remember I was in the 4th or 5th grade when that ruling came down. The court who made that ruling had 3 members who were KU KLUX KlAN members. Stopping prayers in school was the start worshiping the state rather than G#D..
 
2013-05-12 06:29:03 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


You may be "libby lib" but that doesn't mean you and no one else is ever going to drag me or my non-existent kids into a church to graduate from a public school.

IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
AND IT'S A GOOD LAW.
 
2013-05-12 06:33:50 PM  
Somacandra: Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue  Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.

www.esplatter.com
 
2013-05-12 06:35:52 PM  

TwoHead: Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.


See, high schoolers can't drink before the ceremony as you once did. Perhaps it was the drink that permitted you to not give a shiat about the heat.
 
2013-05-12 06:41:30 PM  

jmr61: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You may be "libby lib" but that doesn't mean you and no one else is ever going to drag me or my non-existent kids into a church to graduate from a public school.

IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
AND IT'S A GOOD LAW.


You better read the law again, snookums. Graduating kids from a public school, even at a church, is totally legal so long as it meets the Lemon test:

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. The burden is not on the church. It's on the school. And so long as the school can show that they had a secular purpose in choosing the church building (more room, better parking, air conditioning, whatever); that they were not "advancing or inhibiting religion" (ensured that religious symbols were covered, Bibles or Torahs removed from view); and there was no "excessive entanglement" with religion (no special recognition for Church members, no advertising in the program)....then there is NOTHING that would stop the school using the church for graduation ceremonies.

Except that it upsets the delicate sensibilities of people like you, who think that acknowledging the existence of a god at all is the same as forcing you to worship against your will.
 
2013-05-12 06:41:44 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: You're comparing apples and toasters.


*whynotboth.jpg*

www.easyvegan.info
 
2013-05-12 06:51:02 PM  

Nabb1: For purely secular purposes, it probably would be so long as the rental price was reasonable.


No, because you're using tax payer money to partake in commerce with an organization that exists solely for religious purposes. They are not a business, they are a religious organization.
 
2013-05-12 06:52:07 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Lionel Mandrake: You're comparing apples and toasters.

*whynotboth.jpg*

[www.easyvegan.info image 500x310]


nice

clapping.gif
 
2013-05-12 06:53:11 PM  
Hmmm.... something familiar 'bout this... like I may have seen a ruling on such a matter before... like it happened... just a few years ago... in my own state....

http://www.acluct.org/aboutus/pressroom/enfieldsuitruling.htm

Oh yea. Cause it did.

/I know, CT precedent doesn't hold in WI
//pretty damn sure the outcome will be the same, though.
 
2013-05-12 06:56:51 PM  
remember: using taxes to pay for the upkeep of schools, bridges, roads and other infrastructure is COMMUNIST*.


*unless you're doing it in iraq or afghanistan
 
2013-05-12 07:01:24 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: Google map aerial view:



WTF? John Q. Hammons didn't have enough shiat named after him in Springfield MO, so he drove to Tulsa to slap his name on more stuff?

Christ, what an ego that man must have...
 
2013-05-12 07:02:58 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith.


That is a huge leap from making a law establishing a religion and saying something positive about a religion.
 
2013-05-12 07:14:44 PM  

phaseolus: God-is-a-Taco: Google map aerial view:


WTF? John Q. Hammons didn't have enough shiat named after him in Springfield MO, so he drove to Tulsa to slap his name on more stuff?

Christ, what an ego that man must have...


shiat, that guyhas a street named after him in Middleton, WI
 
2013-05-12 07:17:08 PM  

HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?


Waukesha County has an air conditioned Expo Center about eight miles up the road
 
2013-05-12 07:29:33 PM  

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


Same here. Thing is, it was also 40 degrees outside on the night of our ceremony, and they just opened some doors. I don't even recall our school ever turning the AC on once in my years there.
 
2013-05-12 07:35:58 PM  

Gyrfalcon: jmr61: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You may be "libby lib" but that doesn't mean you and no one else is ever going to drag me or my non-existent kids into a church to graduate from a public school.

IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
AND IT'S A GOOD LAW.

You better read the law again, snookums. Graduating kids from a public school, even at a church, is totally legal so long as it meets the Lemon test:

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. The burden is not on the church. It's on the school. And so long as the school can show that they had a secular purpose in choosing the church building (more room, better parking, air conditioning, whatever); that they were not "advancing or inhibiting religion" (ensured that religious symbols were covered, Bibles or Torahs removed from view); and there was no "excessive entanglement" with religion (no special recognition for Church members, no advertising in the program)....then there is NOTHING that would stop the school using the church for graduation ceremonies.

Except that it upsets the delicate sensibilities of people like you, who think that acknowledging the existence of a god at all is the same as forcing you to worship against your will.


Say a Muslim mosque offers its services to host a graduation.  If the school turns them down flat, it violates the second prong of the Lemon test (as it advances Christianity while inhibiting Islam). If the school accepts them, it is on the slippery slope of violating the third prong of the Lemon test (especially if a Jewish synagogue, a Wiccan coven, and other denominations of Christianity chip in to volunteer their gatherings for graduations).  Either way, it would fail the Lemon test in this regard.

Now, are the circumstances important enough that this distinction changes if no other religious entity offers their services?  What if, instead of the mosque, the owner of a local hotel offers his dance hall for the graduation? The dance hall has no affiliation with any religion (though it often hosts wedding receptions and Sunday brunches), making it a true "non-denominational" choice for a graduation. Would turning a secular space down flat in favor of a space hosted by a religious entity in itself violate prong 2 of the Lemon test? Might it violate prong 3?
 
2013-05-12 07:45:50 PM  
Another cherry-picked "news" story to make the separation of church and state look like the bad guy, ladies and gentlemen.
 
2013-05-12 08:03:53 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Mail the diplomas home and fark the hoopla.  Nobody goes through 12 years of schooling dreaming about that "Big Day."


When I graduated from high school back in the caveman days (1980), my parents and bunches of other relatives were at the ceremony. I was one of the first generation to graduate from high school (my father never did, my mother graduated from a "training school - the district wouldn't allow where the black kids went to be called "high school" like the white kids place) with honors or at all, and it was important. I went to that ceremony not just for me, but more importantly for them.

When I graduated from college in may of 2012 after lots of life happening and 6 years of busting my ass to get my magna cum laude while living on potatoes, generic salami and cheese for months at a time, that was important too. I went to that ceremony, and I enjoyed the living f*ck out of it, wishing it would never end. Then I partied for two days straight with various classmates, since I was usually the only one old enough to buy beer without ID.

Point is that some people take a lot of stuff for granted. If you were fortunate enough to live and grow up in a household where everyone graduated from high school and then went off to college as if that was the norm, I'm happy for you. For some of us though, these ceremonies are important because we never thought we would get here. There are still families here who are having their first high school graduation ever - in 2013 -  and will attend when their graduate walks down to get their diplomas this month. It is important to them, and they deserve to celebrate it.
 
2013-05-12 08:20:15 PM  
They're not letting the poor kids in, are they? My understanding is that they don't deserve air conditioning. Makes them uppity.
 
2013-05-12 08:26:54 PM  

Bloody Templar: I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church. The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons). Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy. It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.


No. This is completely and utterly factually incorrect. While I am an atheist, I grew up in the CofC, and my entire extended family attends the CofC. The CofC never at any time had anything to do with the Mormon faith. The CofC came about as a result of the Restoration movement in the late 19th century US, when people wanted to get rid of the hierarchy involved in some organized churches across congregations, and also wanted to return to what they believed was how the 1st century Christians worshiped. This had absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism.

Having said that, my 8th grade (public school) graduation was held in the local CofC, and my (public) high school was held in the auditorium of the local CofC-affiliated university (which was also used for daily mandatory chapel services for all students, so some might consider it a church). One of the advantages to using the CofC buildings is that they are almost entirely devoid of religious symbols and iconography - no steeples, crucifixes, etc.

Check out the wiki if you're curious, it's pretty accurate. You've been seriously misinformed about the CofC if you think it had at any point anything to do with the Mormon church.
 
2013-05-12 08:29:22 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"

To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


I went to a hicktown high school in hillbilly Indiana. School built in 1920, exposed asbestos, heat was always too much or not enough, paint chipped and faded, floor tiles cracked and broken, carpets worn smooth, many windows painted over, bathrooms an abomination, whole place smelled. It was a pit.

The gym was only a few years old, state of the art (for the time), and seated 3000 easily. Huge lobby adjacent for trophy cases.

It was not hard to work out the priorities.
 
2013-05-12 08:31:03 PM  

cmb53208: HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?

Waukesha County has an air conditioned Expo Center about eight miles up the road


I think cost also was a factor. I know around where I live, churches usually rent out their facilities at a price that is much lower than other venues.
 
2013-05-12 08:34:29 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"

To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


A decade? When I went to high school in the late nineties the American history textbooks ended with Watergate.
 
2013-05-12 08:43:39 PM  

Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.


This is my point exactly. It's "ok" if it's a church, but not if it's a Mosque. This is how all religious issues should be considered in this country. If it's ok for a Christian or a church, but not ok for a Muslim or a Mosque, then it isn't ok. Period.
 
2013-05-12 08:54:23 PM  

mod3072: Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it

They probably don't hold a lot of classes in the gym. Our gymnasium doesn't have any AC and it can get to be a miserable biatch by the time graduation rolls around. Basketball and volleyball are during the winter, when AC isn't needed. The springtime sports like track and golf are outside sports, so the gym rarely gets used for anything after March or so other than spring concert and graduation. Spending the huge amount of money it would take to air condition it for 3 events each year simply wouldn't be cost effective.

Or, you know, the school board sat back in a smokey room in the middle of the night rubbing their hands with glee and giggling maniacally at the thought of intentionally designing a building without AC just as an excuse to make a few atheists uncomfortable for an hour or two. I'm sure it's either one or the other.


Lack of A/C isn't supposed to be the only problem. but you already knew that
 
2013-05-12 08:54:24 PM  

wildsnowllama: TuteTibiImperes: Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"

To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:

A decade? When I went to high school in the late nineties the American history textbooks ended with Watergate.


When my stepson was in 8th grade about 10 years ago, the textbooks still showed the Soviet Union on maps. Fark this country's blah blah about education. We only change the textbooks once in 20 years because they cost $200 apiece thanks to the rigged game that siphons off money for connected patrons of politicians.
 
2013-05-12 08:55:27 PM  

mod3072: Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it

They probably don't hold a lot of classes in the gym. Our gymnasium doesn't have any AC and it can get to be a miserable biatch by the time graduation rolls around. Basketball and volleyball are during the winter, when AC isn't needed. The springtime sports like track and golf are outside sports, so the gym rarely gets used for anything after March or so other than spring concert and graduation. Spending the huge amount of money it would take to air condition it for 3 events each year simply wouldn't be cost effective.

Or, you know, the school board sat back in a smokey room in the middle of the night rubbing their hands with glee and giggling maniacally at the thought of intentionally designing a building without AC just as an excuse to make a few atheists uncomfortable for an hour or two. I'm sure it's either one or the other.


A/C isn't supposed to be the only problem. But you already knew that
 
2013-05-12 09:04:33 PM  

wildsnowllama: When I went to high school in the late nineties the American history textbooks ended with Watergate.


That was the Liberal Mainstream MST Texbook authors revising (and stopping) history. They didn't want you to know about Jimmy Carter and the "Great Repressive American Peanut Endeavor" that hindered Reagan's "Never Underestimate The Savior" project.

/For cereal.
 
2013-05-12 09:13:27 PM  

Your Average Witty Fark User: Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.

This is my point exactly. It's "ok" if it's a church, but not if it's a Mosque. This is how all religious issues should be considered in this country. If it's ok for a Christian or a church, but not ok for a Muslim or a Mosque, then it isn't ok. Period.


Right. Because Muslims, being the inclusive lot that they are, are usually inclined to welcome the non-believers into their Holy places. Yeppers. Sally was kissing Jenny in the foot-washjng room? That's a stoning
 
2013-05-12 09:19:49 PM  
So, our public/secular infrastructure is crumbling and we're resorting to our religious institutions to fill the gap left by an increasingly inept and distant government?

Is this twenty-first century America, or fifth-century Gaul?
 
2013-05-12 09:20:38 PM  
This doesn't make sense.  IN one way, we haven an incorporated Constitution in regards to the 1st amendment, where towns and sates cannot declare official religions, suppress speech or censor media yet those same towns and states can have wildly different gun laws from place to place, citing that the Constitution is only a document which limits the federal government - (and states where it professedly does so)
 
2013-05-12 09:26:53 PM  

The Name: So, our public/secular infrastructure is crumbling and we're resorting to our religious institutions to fill the gap left by an increasingly inept and distant government?

Is this twenty-first century America, or fifth-century Gaul?


Actually you just summarized Scott Walker's education policies.
 
2013-05-12 09:37:46 PM  
if the  school pays the church to use the facility and if there are any christian symbols in view during the ceremony, then yes, I would say it violates the 1st amendment. I also find it hard to believe they can't find another place to hold it.
 
2013-05-12 09:54:26 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.


Imagine if they held it at the local mosque. Imagine the howls that would erupt.

The government's relationship with Christian churches should have the same standard.
 
2013-05-12 09:56:52 PM  
Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.
 
2013-05-12 10:10:42 PM  

Spanky_McFarksalot: if the  school pays the church to use the facility and if there are any christian symbols in view during the ceremony, then yes, I would say it violates the 1st amendment. I also find it hard to believe they can't find another place to hold it.


that might be where the fun begins
other places might charge, while the church might be "free"
the church and the church going parents might want to have the ceremony in the church, what better way to praise god and preach to the unwashed masses.
 
2013-05-12 10:21:40 PM  
Considering nearly every graduation ceremony in the country already has a prayer at the beginning... and a healthy percentage has pastors speak at them... somehow going to a church because your gymnasium is a piece of shiat doesn't really seem like it's going that much farther.
 
2013-05-12 10:24:22 PM  
benghazi

that's all I got.
 
2013-05-12 10:26:25 PM  

Krieghund: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

Imagine if they held it at the local mosque. Imagine the howls that would erupt.

The government's relationship with Christian churches should have the same standard.


It wouldn't change my opinion provided the space was donated and religious symbols were removed or covered for the ceremony.
 
2013-05-12 10:42:22 PM  

DarwiOdrade: It wouldn't change my opinion provided the space was donated and religious symbols were removed or covered for the ceremony.


I understand. But my point is that this isn't a religious people vs non religious people issue. It's a religious people vs other religious people issue.

Some otherwise reasonable people feel that it is sacrilegious to enter certain other faith's worship spaces.
 
2013-05-12 11:06:27 PM  
The stupid it burns.
 
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