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(Chicago Trib)   Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local church." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 203
    More: Interesting, supreme courts, Wisconsin, local churches, air conditionings, 1st amendment, Muslim Mosque, graduation, establishment of religion  
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3139 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 May 2013 at 3:54 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-12 11:06:27 PM  
The stupid it burns.
 
2013-05-12 11:08:33 PM  
they can compromise and hold it in a mosque. since its not a religious thing the parents wouldn't mind right?
 
2013-05-12 11:09:46 PM  

sdd2000: maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.

In what way?


By saying it is a separation of church and state issue. No where in the constitution does it call for a separation of church and state. Did you even read the article? The court has said that they could not have a graduation ceremony in a church.
 
2013-05-12 11:14:20 PM  

Ken VeryBigLiar: Mrtraveler01: It's farking WI in springtime, how hot does it get up there?

It might be 85 and humid or 35 and windy, we're never sure.  It's more that you can't have that many people who, let's face it, aren't skinny in that amount of space.


Tonight, there is a frost warning.  Low of 32, high of like 50 tomorrow.  On tuesday, the high should be 82.

Also known as...

4/30/13 - 81 degrees
5/3/13 - 4 inches of snow
5/5/13 - 74 degrees
 
2013-05-12 11:18:32 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.


Do you speak for all two billion Christians?

There are people in America, lots of them, that boycott stores who say "happy holidays."  You bet your ass plenty of Christians would shiat a brick - f*ck, they'd shiat the Great Wall of China - if they heard graduation was going to be held at mosque.  How you feel isn't relevant.
 
2013-05-12 11:41:12 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.

Do you speak for all two billion Christians?

There are people in America, lots of them, that boycott stores who say "happy holidays."  You bet your ass plenty of Christians would shiat a brick - f*ck, they'd shiat the Great Wall of China - if they heard graduation was going to be held at mosque.  How you feel isn't relevant.


So my opinion doesn't count, but the imaginary Christians in your head do?  Ok there, Derpy McDerptard.
 
2013-05-12 11:56:19 PM  
Here's my question, for reals:

Are the parents/community in question the ones who complained FIRST, or did the "Americans United for Separation of Whosy Whatsis" come in and tell them this was offensive to them, and they should file a civil suit?

Because if some people of Jewish/Moslem/Christian/Wiccan/Cthulhian faiths were upset about having graduation in a church and wanted to do something about it, then fine; but if THEY were perfectly okay with it and the school and church were okay with covering up the crosses and boxing up the Bibles and hymnals for the duration of the ceremony--and some group of outsiders came in and said "No, wait! This is offensive and illegal! You should sue!" then it is not so fine at all.

This idea that "the law is the law and needs to be applied evenly everywhere for everyone" is really wrong and needs to be stopped. What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise--does not affect and need not affect anyone even in another town across the interstate; and would not if a few people would stiffen their sinews and recognize it.

I can hear some people already whining now: But if Town Y Across the Interstate were to be sued by some parents over the same issue, they would say "But Town X has been doing this and you let them--why can't we do it?" Well, the judge should have the balls to say, Because that is a different set of circumstances. Nobody was upset in Town X; but in Town Y, some people are not happy, and so we have to consider things here. What's good for the goose is NOT always good for the gander. Law should neither be a straitjacket nor a whip for some people to wield in the name of their own agendas, no matter how well intentioned (or not). Some things are not matters of personal safety or social welfare, and those areas are open for compromise--like where the high school graduation should be held.
 
2013-05-13 12:14:43 AM  
1) As others have mentioned, curtain over the cross.

2) They can't afford AC in Wisconsin or think of having graduation earlier in the day.    It not like graduation is in August in Arizona.
 
2013-05-13 12:26:36 AM  

Gyrfalcon: This idea that "the law is the law and needs to be applied evenly everywhere for everyone" is really wrong and needs to be stopped.


WTF?
 
2013-05-13 12:59:03 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Your Average Witty Fark User: Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.

This is my point exactly. It's "ok" if it's a church, but not if it's a Mosque. This is how all religious issues should be considered in this country. If it's ok for a Christian or a church, but not ok for a Muslim or a Mosque, then it isn't ok. Period.

Right. Because Muslims, being the inclusive lot that they are, are usually inclined to welcome the non-believers into their Holy places. Yeppers. Sally was kissing Jenny in the foot-washjng room? That's a stoning


If you're going to be inclusive of some religions and not others, then you're discriminatory. Period.
 
2013-05-13 01:02:51 AM  

common sense is an oxymoron: Gyrfalcon: This idea that "the law is the law and needs to be applied evenly everywhere for everyone" is really wrong and needs to be stopped.

WTF?


Sorry, I was in a hurry. I mean this idea that "Well, you let THEM do it, so that means we have to be able to do it too!" whatever "it" is, and regardless of whether the circusmtances are the same. It's the same thing that causes kids' lemonade stands to be shut down under the same business-licensing laws that shut down baseball park hot-dog stands "Because the laws have to apply evenly to everyone." As if a lemonade stand run by two 8-year olds for an afternoon was the same as some adult person selling hot-dogs every weekend at the park--was the same as a multi-million dollar concession at the major-league team's stadium.

But people have been using laws for cudgels lately and cranky old ladies using the same business laws to close down lemonade stands; and do-gooders in Wisconsin or wherever have been using church vs. state rulings (often with the best of intentions) to meddle in areas where until they got there, nobody was upset, on the theory that "the law needs to be the same everywhere". No, it really doesn't. The only place the law needs to be the same for everyone everywhere is in the courtroom, once it has been invoked. Prior to that, someone from outside coming along and saying "I think the law needs to be the same everywhere and so someone here should be as outraged as me," is the same as the cranky old lady invoking the business laws to shut down the kids on the corner. Yes, it is "legal"--but it may not be right.
 
2013-05-13 01:29:36 AM  
Churches rent school space all the time somehow they are able to get Jesus in and and out before the weak-minded can be overcome with fear that Government is establishing a religion.
 
2013-05-13 01:30:51 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


I give you the Matthew Knight Arena. Not bad for the tiny town of Eugene, Oregon.

www.nwsportsbeat.com
 
2013-05-13 01:41:02 AM  
Meh. my high school graduation was outside 80+ degree heat in black caps and gowns.   th entire class felt like they would die of a stroke.
 
2013-05-13 01:41:18 AM  
The students and teachers were apparently fine with this event being held inside an Evangelical Church for a decade or so?

Fine, let them do that.

9 students and their parents feel strongly enough that the setting is too inappropriate or intimidating or evangelizing and should be moved?

Fine, move it. It's not like there aren't options here.

*makes self-satisfied triple hand dusting motion*

Next.
 
2013-05-13 01:48:20 AM  
I am way too late to this thread for anyone to even take notice but i have been a lurker on this site for so long that when ever an article is posted here about something i have first-hand knowledge of i am compelled to respond.

my mom brought me to Elmbrook Church from the time i was too young to remember till the time i was old enough to demand an alternative. i grew up there. it is one scary and very farked up place. not in a haunted house way. in a stepford wives way.

it is a mega-church, and pridefully so, in every sense of the word. my mom sought grief counseling and was manipulated and emotionally abused by the pastoral staff into believing that my dad left her because she didn't provide a warm and wholesome enough alternative to the fast and fun lifestyle he craved (drugs and sluts. dad loved 'em).

my brother was in the middle school fellowship program run by a "popular and charismatic" youth leader (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=19991030&id=hK caAAAAIBA J&sjid=Wy8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5584,1853698) who years later committed suicide by wrapping his head in plastic after he was found to have molested kids in his charge. as a quick google search will reveal, this was not the first or last time the youth fellowship program was corrupted by perverts.

i am not a fundie and never have been but my mom is and was, though even she wouldn't step foot in this church again.

i don't have only negative views of the place. there were plenty of other interesting kids i met who were similarly compelled to attend by their hoodwinked parents. the highlights of my spiritual upbringing include my first hit of pot, my first taste of 'tang, and a healthy cynicism of anything and everything "evangelical."

as a former taxpayer in the state of wisconsin, in no farking way would i support any money, taxpayer or otherwise, continuing to fund this cult. i can understand why people would want to rent the space. it's massive and pristine. it doesn't even have as much religious iconography as your run-of-the-mill Catholic church. but it is a blight on southeastern wisconsin and an embarrassment to any self-respecting spiritual person, Christian or otherwise.

use the farking gym, New Berlin. It might be uncomfortable in warm weather but you should be way more uncomfortable using this temple of false prophecy
 
2013-05-13 02:30:42 AM  

Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise


If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.
 
2013-05-13 04:13:28 AM  

Krieghund: Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise

If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.


Or maybe nobody was upset. That's the other alternative that nobody seems willing to accept as even a remote possibility, and it irks me that the idea that maybe everyone was okay with having their ceremony in the church is just too beyond the pale for outsiders to accept.
 
2013-05-13 04:57:11 AM  
My high school did it in an opposite, but equally unconstitutional way.  The graduation was held outside on our football field (despite a light rain the entire day).

But the day before, the school held an official prayer session, officiated by a Christian minister, inside our auditorium.  Our school was literally across the street from a church.

Since I was one of the veteran choir kids, my director/teacher tried to order me to come sing at the service on behalf of the school music department.  I very politely declined to aid her and the school's administration in violating the 1st Amendment, and we never spoke again.
 
2013-05-13 06:54:04 AM  

HotWingAgenda: My high school did it in an opposite, but equally unconstitutional way.  The graduation was held outside on our football field (despite a light rain the entire day).

But the day before, the school held an official prayer session, officiated by a Christian minister, inside our auditorium.  Our school was literally across the street from a church.

Since I was one of the veteran choir kids, my director/teacher tried to order me to come sing at the service on behalf of the school music department.  I very politely declined to aid her and the school's administration in violating the 1st Amendment, and we never spoke again.


oh you arsonist you...
 
2013-05-13 07:06:08 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Krieghund: Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise

If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.

Or maybe nobody was upset. That's the other alternative that nobody seems willing to accept as even a remote possibility, and it irks me that the idea that maybe everyone was okay with having their ceremony in the church is just too beyond the pale for outsiders to accept.


FTFA:  Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.

Courts don't just bring suits by themselves, you know.
 
2013-05-13 07:49:20 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Krieghund: Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise

If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.

Or maybe nobody was upset. That's the other alternative that nobody seems willing to accept as even a remote possibility, and it irks me that the idea that maybe everyone was okay with having their ceremony in the church is just too beyond the pale for outsiders to accept.


I concede that it is possible to blow something like this out of proportion.  But then you can blow a lot of things out of proportion.  There was a time (and not all that long ago) when people would have rolled their eyes when the subject of neighborhood integration was brought up.  So where do we draw the line on what is OK, and shouldn't be disturbed, so long as the locals don't complain?

Neighborhood segregation
School segregation
Sexual harassment
Police force taking bribes
Child abuse (and I don't even mean sexual, more like, violations of child labor laws)
Gangs extorting money from local businesses

(Yes, all of these are apples-to-oranges comparisons, but they all share one fairly important distinction with the story at hand, the possibility that laws are being broken.)

If all of the people in a community are silent on one of these subjects, does that mean everyone else should keep their noses out of it?  Because all of these things have been tolerated in the past, because "that's just the way it is."
 
2013-05-13 08:07:37 AM  

HotWingAgenda: My high school did it in an opposite, but equally unconstitutional way.  The graduation was held outside on our football field (despite a light rain the entire day).

But the day before, the school held an official prayer session, officiated by a Christian minister, inside our auditorium.  Our school was literally across the street from a church.

Since I was one of the veteran choir kids, my director/teacher tried to order me to come sing at the service on behalf of the school music department.  I very politely declined to aid her and the school's administration in violating the 1st Amendment, and we never spoke again.


One of the hardest parts about teaching vocal music is how historically it is linked to the church and for a significant span of time after the emergence of secular offerings it is viewed as being somewhere on par with a barroom rendition of "Louie Louie"

I had an excellent vocal teacher who was very aware of this.  It is only now that I appreciate the pins he had to walk on to use material that very likely would have ignited a backlash but was imperative that as performers and musicians we have under our belt.

So, if you're out there Mr. Weiss, thanks for doing an awesome job.
 
2013-05-13 08:14:05 AM  
There's a good chance the people bringing the complaint are another religion and not atheists.
Yeah I agree with them. Until they say it should be in their church instead
 
2013-05-13 08:16:34 AM  
I graduated in a church. The ceremony was going to be in the schools stadium, but the threat of rain pushed it indoors. The church was picked because it had the largest auditorium that was close by.
 
2013-05-13 08:35:46 AM  

remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility images of a man nailed to boards, human hearts with swords stuck through them, crowns full of blood dripping thorns, shepherds looking at sheep longingly, chalices of wine, etc. ..


Might as well have it in an abandoned haunted house.
 
2013-05-13 08:37:16 AM  
Dear Wisconsin High School,

 you should have sent your mice to Private Schools like good rich americans do.  they're doing well and enjoying the tax cuts that 'your' government gave them.  they can't thank you enough.  and as an added plus, their mice don't have to compete with your mice in school and after school.  that is, if their mice even work at all.

-your pals

-the Richest 2% who own 80% of this Nations wealth.

PS -- our churches enjoy not having to pay taxes too!
 
2013-05-13 08:50:25 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Are the parents/community in question the ones who complained FIRST, or did the "Americans United for Separation of Whosy Whatsis" come in and tell them this was offensive to them, and they should file a civil suit?


The way it usually works is someone in the community gets upset, contacts one of the AUSWW type of groups, and the AUSWW contacts the school with a letter explaining that they believe the schools conduct is a violation of the Constitution and have a potential plaintiff for the courts. Generally, secularists prefer to get an AUSWW as cover, because there tend to be a significant number of Christians who retaliate if the process starts with a non-anonymous complaint. (Peculiar, as I'm not able to find where "Snitches get stitches" is in the King James Bible.)

Gyrfalcon: Or maybe nobody was upset.


Not possible, here. A "stop that" legal nastygram could go out in the mail in theory, but in practice most AUSWW type of group won't act until they get someone local griping, because they only like to "bluff" with a straight flush. The next stage of initiating legal action -- which this has apparently reached, as this is being considered as an appeal from a lower federal court ruling -- is to file a court case, which requires someone with legal standing, and although it can be done anonymously such standing pretty much has to be local to be sufficiently impacted for the courts to consider there to be court-redressible injury.

Once you're talking about court rulings and appeals of court rulings, there's someone local who's pissed enough to have called in the national-grade hired gun.

GameSprocket: FTFA:  Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.


EG.

Kid the Universe: I am way too late to this thread for anyone to even take notice but i have been a lurker on this site for so long that when ever an article is posted here about something i have first-hand knowledge of i am compelled to respond.


There's some regulars who usually check back on what people are saying until the thread closes, and it's always nice to have some first hand reporting.
 
2013-05-13 09:23:21 AM  

Apos: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


THIS20.


It is not like we don't spend enough money: but the money for a new gym proably got diverted to a pay raise for the superintendent, highng a couselor just for LGBT students and a child care center for the spawn of students/unwed teen moms. Plus they had to pay an out of court settlements for a dodgeball injury and a stuendt who was suspended for having pastry that looked like a gun.



Switzerland and the U.S. spend the most,Switzerland and the United States are two of the countries with the highest teachers' salaries

US Education Spend vs rest of the World

spending, class sizes, teachers pay and statistics compared by country

static.guim.co.uk
 
2013-05-13 09:26:07 AM  

common sense is an oxymoron: Somacandra: Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue  Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.

[www.esplatter.com image 360x270]


That would be interesting as, realistically, the Hindu Temple of Wisconsin, is not that far away.

/Ike's football field isn't a bad place to have it either.
 
2013-05-13 09:42:45 AM  
Your Average Witty Fark User: If you're going to be inclusive of non-religious events and not religious events, then you're discriminatory. Period.

ftfy
 
2013-05-13 10:05:47 AM  
Atheists are delicate snowflakes and they will scream to their mommy if they see a cross. Waaaaa!
Crybabies. Get over it. You should be more upset at a baseball game...having to look at all those advertisements. No.as a consumer drone, that's OK.
 
2013-05-13 10:06:56 AM  
If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.
 
2013-05-13 11:01:05 AM  

TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.


It is settled law, and it has been... ** looks at username***

Never mind, carry on.

**plonk**
 
2013-05-13 11:06:02 AM  

maxalt: sdd2000: maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.

In what way?

By saying it is a separation of church and state issue. No where in the constitution does it call for a separation of church and state. Did you even read the article? The court has said that they could not have a graduation ceremony in a church.


No I think the court said
"towering over the graduation proceedings ... was a 15- to 20-foot-tall Latin cross, the preeminent symbol of Christianity."

The appeals court said that goes too far, turning a public school ceremony into an "endorsement" of a particular religion.


Is that like attempting to prohibit the building of a mosque (although not even really a mosque) near the site of the World Trade Center?


The easiest test for me would be if the fundies / derpers in an area would be as happy if the event was done in front of a Jewish Star or a Muslim Cresent or the invocation was done by an Imam.
 
2013-05-13 11:06:14 AM  

Proteios1: Atheists

Christians are delicate snowflakes and they will scream to their mommy daddy if they see can't have a cross at a government event. Waaaaa!

Or, alternately,

Proteios1: Atheists are delicate snowflakes

litigious secularists and they will scream to their mommy the court system if they see a cross any intrusion of sectarian religion into any aspect of the sphere of government functions.

Either way.

TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.


Except voters are adults, so the analogy neglects "the particular concerns that arise in the context of public elementary and secondary schools" which subjects religion in the schools to tighter scrutiny. See part II of the majority ruling in Edwards v Aguillard.

Also, I'm not sure either practice has yet been explicitly challenged for review by a federal court since Everson v Board of Education started the modern line of precedent on religion in the States.
 
2013-05-13 11:17:24 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.

It is settled law, and it has been... ** looks at username***

Never mind, carry on.

**plonk**


really you are going to plonk me for that. don't know if you can still read me but you are a farking whiny little child and have shiate for brains.
 
2013-05-13 11:18:47 AM  

abb3w: Proteios1: Atheists Christians are delicate snowflakes and they will scream to their mommy daddy if they see can't have a cross at a government event. Waaaaa!

Or, alternately,

Proteios1: Atheists are delicate snowflakes litigious secularists and they will scream to their mommy the court system if they see a cross any intrusion of sectarian religion into any aspect of the sphere of government functions.

Either way.

TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.

Except voters are adults, so the analogy neglects "the particular concerns that arise in the context of public elementary and secondary schools" which subjects religion in the schools to tighter scrutiny. See part II of the majority ruling in Edwards v Aguillard.

Also, I'm not sure either practice has yet been explicitly challenged for review by a federal court since Everson v Board of Education started the modern line of precedent on religion in the States.


see that's a much better response that ctrl-alt-del. what a dick.
 
2013-05-13 11:47:33 AM  
s3.amazonaws.com

/from WI
//sad
///MN now and happy to be here.
 
2013-05-13 12:27:39 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Lionel Mandrake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.

Do you speak for all two billion Christians?

There are people in America, lots of them, that boycott stores who say "happy holidays."  You bet your ass plenty of Christians would shiat a brick - f*ck, they'd shiat the Great Wall of China - if they heard graduation was going to be held at mosque.  How you feel isn't relevant.

So my opinion doesn't count, but the imaginary Christians in your head do?  Ok there, Derpy McDerptard.


Are you part of the lawsuit?  Are you on the Supreme Court?
 
2013-05-13 12:41:43 PM  
I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the validictorian with 2 moms?
 
2013-05-13 01:18:59 PM  

SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the
validictorian with 2 moms?


I doubt that the church would actively bar them from attending.

Even if the church ignored these issues do you think those people would feel comfortable in a church that spends the other 364 days of the year telling them they are dirty sinners who will be eternally cast into fire and despair because of who they love?

Maybe this church isn't 'one of those' churches. Maybe they are friendly and inclusive. How would the conservative religious folks feel being in the building of a blasphemous church that allows the sinful and the depraved to join.

A better solution is to keep religion at arms length from publicly funded organizations that way nobody is disadvantaged.
 
2013-05-13 02:03:38 PM  

SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the validictorian with 2 moms?


If you want to go to graduation, you have to show up to a church.  While you are at the church, you will be ever so slightly exposed to church teachings.  In an ever so tiny way, that's public schools promoting a specific religion.  I think this one's mostly about the principle but the people suing are right.

For perspective, my Wisconsin High School gym was run down and had no air conditioning.  We stuffed the HS gym full of over 1,000 people and it got hot and sweaty as fark in there.  But we didn't have it at a local church.  Also, my HS was a private catholic HS.  So I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around the public school not stuffing the kids and their parents in the gym.  Or at least planning it for outside every year, weather permitting and otherwise in the gym.
 
2013-05-13 03:09:01 PM  

sdd2000: maxalt: sdd2000: maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.

In what way?

By saying it is a separation of church and state issue. No where in the constitution does it call for a separation of church and state. Did you even read the article? The court has said that they could not have a graduation ceremony in a church.

No I think the court said
"towering over the graduation proceedings ... was a 15- to 20-foot-tall Latin cross, the preeminent symbol of Christianity."

The appeals court said that goes too far, turning a public school ceremony into an "endorsement" of a particular religion.


Is that like attempting to prohibit the building of a mosque (although not even really a mosque) near the site of the World Trade Center?


The easiest test for me would be if the fundies / derpers in an area would be as happy if the event was done in front of a Jewish Star or a Muslim Cresent or the invocation was done by an Imam.


READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it. Your comparing the World Trade Center is just plain BS, on many levels. Just one it is a private building. Now if you want a comparison try the mosque in the spot where Davids temple was built, who should own that property.
 
2013-05-13 03:26:32 PM  

Egoy3k: SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the
validictorian with 2 moms?

I doubt that the church would actively bar them from attending.

Even if the church ignored these issues do you think those people would feel comfortable in a church that spends the other 364 days of the year telling them they are dirty sinners who will be eternally cast into fire and despair because of who they love?

Maybe this church isn't 'one of those' churches. Maybe they are friendly and inclusive. How would the conservative religious folks feel being in the building of a blasphemous church that allows the sinful and the depraved to join.

A better solution is to keep religion at arms length from publicly funded organizations that way nobody is disadvantaged.


What the Flack does sex have to do with a graduation? If you are gay and want the world to know don't do it where people could be offended. It's like the gays walking around in San Francisco with big dildos strapped on, or that girl who handed out condoms partly dressed, your freedom stops where mine begins, and if I don't want to know your sexual preferences SHUT UP. If I don't want to see your teets or your sex organs keep them under your clothes, you have no right to talk about sex at a graduation period. Just as the church could not give a sermon prior to the graduation. Stop trying to make an impression by what you are and try to make an impression by what you can accomplish, sheesh you young people got screwed in your education.
 
2013-05-13 05:22:03 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Tumunga: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am intellectuallycrippled by stereotypes and unable to divorce my partisanship from the issues, just like the rest of my libby brethren.

 
2013-05-13 08:00:15 PM  

maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.


The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.
 
2013-05-13 09:04:06 PM  

timujin: maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.

The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.


Oh so then I guess you are against Obama Care, the income tax and all drug laws, because they were passed by a majority. In fact all laws were passed with some descention therefore no laws or rules apply to those who choose to disobey them. The interpretation of the laws banning religion was from a 1950's court that had 3 KKK members as "justices". Ben Franklin a person who knew a bit about the constitution said that the US would only work for people who believed in G*D, Actually he said "This country will only be sustained by a G*D fearing people". If you don't like religion don't practice just leave you tears at home.
 
2013-05-13 09:24:11 PM  

maxalt: timujin: maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.

The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.

Oh so then I guess you are against Obama Care, the income tax and all drug laws, because they were passed by a majority. In fact all laws were passed with some descention therefore no laws or rules apply to those who choose to disobey them. The interpretation of the laws banning religion was from a 1950's court that had 3 KKK members as "justices". Ben Franklin a person who knew a bit about the constitution said that the US would only work for people who believed in G*D, Actually he said "This country will only be sustained by a G*D fearing people". If you don't like religion don't practice just leave you tears at home.


You know how we can tell you may have flunked American History? I seem to remember from my education something about the 16th Amendment which, was passed by more than a simple majority.

Also I think Jefferson's  letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 might be in order here.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared thattheir legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free  exercisethereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional  performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious  exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

 I would think that Jefferson's thoughts on the meaning are more illustrative than yours.
 
2013-05-13 09:46:53 PM  
Well

sdd2000: maxalt: timujin: maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.

The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.

Oh so then I guess you are against Obama Care, the income tax and all drug laws, because they were passed by a majority. In fact all laws were passed with some descention therefore no laws or rules apply to those who choose to disobey them. The interpretation of the laws banning religion was from a 1950's court that had 3 KKK members as "justices". Ben Franklin a person who knew a bit about the constitution said that the US would only work for people who believed in G*D, Actually he said "This country will only be sustained by a G*D fearing people". If you don't like religion don't practice just leave you tears at home.

You know how we can tell you may have flunked American History? I seem to remember from my education something about the 16th Amendment which, was passed by more than a simple majority.

Also I think Jefferson's  letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 might be in order here.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more ...


 Jefferson also wrote a bible, cutting out all of the "unimportant parts". He had said many time that he was unsure of a great creator. Again the constitution NEVER has the words separation of church quite to the contrary, the constitution says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. What part of NO LAWS, don't you understand? The Supreme Courts job is interpretation, not making law. They exceeded that with the rule against religious text or buildings. Congress never even mentioned separation of church and state. I guess FDR was wrong with his stated belief that with G*D on our side we will beat the forces of evil in WW2. Obvious you need to study more reread what you quoted Jefferson. Building a wall between church and state, is just a rehash of the 1st amendment.
 
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