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(Chicago Trib)   Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local church." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 203
    More: Interesting, supreme courts, Wisconsin, local churches, air conditionings, 1st amendment, Muslim Mosque, graduation, establishment of religion  
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3130 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 May 2013 at 3:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-12 04:14:06 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.


Well, it would be ridiculous if that were true. They are considered the same as secular non-profits as far as the tax code goes.
 
2013-05-12 04:14:11 PM
Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.

What are their Fark names?

Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it


You know it is a difference in having 40 or 50 people in a gym for an hour long class and having a few hundred sitting for a couple of hours for a graduation.

And the same people that are complaining about this would probably loose their shiat and be all like "Stop spending money on athletics" if they decided to upgrade the gym.
 
2013-05-12 04:16:08 PM

cman: School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.


Who run Derpertown (Midwest)?  Jesus run Derpertown.
 
2013-05-12 04:16:11 PM
The Las Vegas Rules of Local Governance:

If no one has complained so far in the state where the grey area is tested hundreds of times a year, let's just take the chance.
 
2013-05-12 04:18:03 PM

Mrtraveler01: The fact the state of WI took a hatchet to the education budget probably didn't help fix the gym that is falling apart.


Suburban schoools like this one didn't feel much from the last budget.  It mostly brought the boom down on Milwaukee and the rural districts.   And in places like Elbrook a fair majority was cheering for the cuts from the start.
 
2013-05-12 04:18:29 PM
does this mean i wont have to vote in a church soon?
 
2013-05-12 04:20:42 PM

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am...etc.
 
2013-05-12 04:22:20 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.


The right at issue here seems to be the right to a graduation ceremony free of the slightest unpleasantry.  The Bridezilla right, you might say.
 
2013-05-12 04:22:44 PM

Nabb1: tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.

He's afraid if he sees a cross, he'll suddenly love Jesus, I guess.


I bet he doesn't listen to the end of 0bama's State of the Union when he said "God bless you, and God bless the United States of America."

ohhhh, his rights would be violated if he heard that.
 
2013-05-12 04:22:45 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.


Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.
 
2013-05-12 04:26:42 PM

cman: TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.

Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.


some do. others don't. hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.
 
2013-05-12 04:27:05 PM

ongbok: Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.

What are their Fark names?


Well, the good news is that you don't have any legal grounds to win a suit for being uncomfortable or offended.   If you did, the amount of money Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and Horders would have to pay out would be huge.

This is just a farking money grab.  They are hoping they get a soft-headed jury.
 
2013-05-12 04:29:49 PM

Hobodeluxe: cman: TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.

Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.

some do. others don't. hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.


Where can I find the financial statements of churches?
 
2013-05-12 04:31:33 PM

Tumunga: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am...etc.


I honestly don't care.

I'm just upset that the school is moving the event just because it has no AC.

It's farking WI in springtime, how hot does it get up there?
 
2013-05-12 04:32:28 PM

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


Here's the thing... this isn't about endorsing a particular religion.  Churches make some people uncomfortable, I don't like going into them.  I have and will for two reasons, weddings and funerals, and that's out of respect for the people involved in those events.   High school graduation, though, shouldn't be something that someone is forced to go into a church to attend.

/my high school graduation was in a church
//they made the atheist salutatorian say a prayer
///fark the south
 
2013-05-12 04:35:40 PM

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


Schools in many urban and suburban areas of the country are older buildings.  As buildings age, they typically require greater and greater upkeep.  However "aging infrastructure requires more funding to keep it operational" does not have the same rhetorical impact as "teachers cartel asks for more money and turns out dumber kids ever year".  Even for school supporters, "invested $400,000 in HVAC upgrades and ductwork" doesn't sell as well as "invested $400,000  in smart boards and hands-on technology upgrades".
 
2013-05-12 04:35:43 PM

Hobodeluxe: hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.


citation or are you making this up again?
 
2013-05-12 04:35:43 PM
From another article:

Americans United explained that holding graduations in the religious environment of the church violates the Constitution. The mega-church outside Milwaukee failed to remove religious symbols and texts during the graduation ceremonies. In fact, students and parents sat in pews with Bibles and hymnal books directly in front of them, and also saw church promotional materials telling children that they were "God's Little Lambs" and inviting all attendees to return to the church so that they can "know how to become a Christian."

Elmbrook Church even displayed a large cross, which church officials refused to cover, in the sanctuary where graduation ceremonies were held.

The mega-church also attacks the beliefs and identities of some of the students and parents who had to go to the church to attend their graduations. The church condemns atheists as people "who think they are smarter than God." It refers to homosexuality as "not an acceptable lifestyle" and "contrary to God's will."

Americans United noted that there are many non-religious facilities available for the graduation ceremonies, and other school districts in the area make use of them.

...

Writing for the majority, Judge Joel M. Flaum said holding a public school commencement in the Elmbrook Church sanctuary conveyed "an impermissible message of endorsement" of religion and was "religiously coercive."
 
2013-05-12 04:35:50 PM

Mrtraveler01: It's farking WI in springtime, how hot does it get up there?


It might be 85 and humid or 35 and windy, we're never sure.  It's more that you can't have that many people who, let's face it, aren't skinny in that amount of space.
 
2013-05-12 04:35:56 PM

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


Both of these.

We live in a quite nice area, where the only suitable auditorium large enough for high school graduations, etc., is the...fundamentalist church. And not only the auditorium, but parking and street access. They cover the crosses and close their prominent religious gift shop, and everyone is fine with it.

It's not just if the gym is big enough or nice enough, you know. It's whether everyone can park there, and get in and out without having to close down all the streets.
 
2013-05-12 04:36:16 PM

namatad: DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.

Because the money which should be spent on schools is being spent on churches.
Public or private, people determine where assets are allocated. They are choosing to spend money on magic sky potatoes, rather than education.
(Couldn't they have upgraded their school gym and rented the gym out to the church on the weekend? LOLOLOL)

So now for a couple of quick questions which were NOT addressed in the article:
1) how much is the school paying to rent the church?
2) if they are renting the space, then public money is being given to a private church and I have HUGE problems with this on many levels.
3) free or for a fee, do they make the space available to other groups for the same cost? why not?

shudder
It would be awesome if SCOTUS came down 9-0 ...


FWIW I agree that the money spent on churches would be better spent on schools, and I also have a problem with public money being spent to rent the space from the church. However, there is no mention in TFA of a rental agreement - the question is whether or not churches (or synagogues, or mosques) are a priori off limits to public functions simply because they primarily associated with a religion. If the church donated the space, and if the religious symbols were covered up for the ceremony, or the ceremony were held in another part of the building - someone mentioned the basement - I see no reason why a public school should be prohibited from having its graduation ceremony in a church.
 
2013-05-12 04:40:01 PM

Hobodeluxe: cman: TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.

Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.

some do. others don't. hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.


A lot of the charitable work is done by volunteers. Our parish soup kitchen welcomes any help. If you'd like to help out, we'd love to have a hand.
 
2013-05-12 04:42:16 PM

Tumunga: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am intellectuallycrippled by stereotypes and unable to divorce my partisanship from the issues.

 
2013-05-12 04:43:03 PM
Pussies. My high school graduation was held at the football field in the middle of the afternoon during a typical hot, muggy May day in southwest Virginia.
 
2013-05-12 04:44:09 PM
Hiding the state of school facilites from people who don't usually see it is a proper way to show the life of students.

Besides, if this is allowed to happen, how many small Texas town would be doing this very same thing.  And oops, they may forget to cover up a few religious symbols.
 
2013-05-12 04:45:21 PM

remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.


That wouldn't go well. When Obama gave a speech at Georgetown rightwingers threw a fit about the name of Jesus being covered.

cnsnews.com

Then again if Obama had given a speech with "Jesus" right above his head, rightwingers would have had a different type of fit.

Maybe they thought that without the cover, Jesus would have driven the anti-Christ Obama away or at least prevented him from speaking.
 
2013-05-12 04:45:22 PM
If the issue is that there was a cross present and nothing else then I don't have an issue with it. The event isn't about the cross at all. If the school was getting a substantial discount over other entities for using the same space for the same amount of time then there may be a problem (unless the discount was because they had made a deal to do it there every year. My pool league had that type of deal with the location where we held our banquets, kinda a volume deal if you will).

A room is a room. If you need a place that can seat 500 people there isn't going to be a whole lot of options available for most people. As long as the bibles are put down and there is no proselytizing going on outside of the normal non-denominational benediction type thing which is done at many govt functions, including congress every day that it's on the clock, then I don't see the problem. It's not like looking at a cross is going to suddenly make you want to tithe 10% and go door to door waking people up on Saturday morning to talk to them about god.
 
2013-05-12 04:47:24 PM

HairBolus: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.

That wouldn't go well. When Obama gave a speech at Georgetown rightwingers threw a fit about the name of Jesus being covered.

[cnsnews.com image 220x147]

Then again if Obama had given a speech with "Jesus" right above his head, rightwingers would have had a different type of fit.


Hells - Obama can't even stand in front of the presidential seal without rightwingers having a fit.
nation.foxnews.com
 
2013-05-12 04:49:35 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: From another article:

Writing for the majority, Judge Joel M. Flaum said holding a public school commencement in the Elmbrook Church sanctuary conveyed "an impermissible message of endorsement" of religion and was "religiously coercive."


So the judge felt that having their religious freedom trampled was a bit more than the slightest of unpleasantries?  He must have read the Constitution.

My personal relationship with Jesus allows me to share whispered jokes with him about the folks in this thread who probably think of themselves as Christians.  He loves you all the same, but even He can't help but giggle when you guys get your holy rolling
 
2013-05-12 04:49:51 PM
Nobody seems to have noticed that the Supreme Court hasn't actually ruled on this one or denied cert yet.
 
2013-05-12 04:50:14 PM

Radioactive Ass: If the issue is that there was a cross present and nothing else then I don't have an issue with it. The event isn't about the cross at all. If the school was getting a substantial discount over other entities for using the same space for the same amount of time then there may be a problem (unless the discount was because they had made a deal to do it there every year. My pool league had that type of deal with the location where we held our banquets, kinda a volume deal if you will).

A room is a room. If you need a place that can seat 500 people there isn't going to be a whole lot of options available for most people. As long as the bibles are put down and there is no proselytizing going on outside of the normal non-denominational benediction type thing which is done at many govt functions, including congress every day that it's on the clock, then I don't see the problem. It's not like looking at a cross is going to suddenly make you want to tithe 10% and go door to door waking people up on Saturday morning to talk to them about god.


Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.
 
2013-05-12 04:51:02 PM

Radioactive Ass: A room is a room.


I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?
 
2013-05-12 04:52:23 PM

HairBolus: Radioactive Ass: A room is a room.

I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?


Maybe not that church, but others would.
 
2013-05-12 04:53:50 PM
if they can have graduations outdoors in southern states i don't see why wisconsin can't, i'm sure it's a lot more comfortable
 
2013-05-12 04:54:32 PM

HairBolus: Radioactive Ass: A room is a room.

I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?


Would you attend one if they did?
 
2013-05-12 04:56:19 PM
TuteTibiImperes:
To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


That's so alien to me, since that exact situation was my experience in high school.
The school itself was a rundown shiathole, but athletics could not have enough money spent on it.
Hmm I wonder how it is now...
Yep, it's about the same, just more exaggereated. It seems the actual school part was renovated finally, but it's still clearly in the back of the minds of the school system.
Google map aerial view:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=union+high+school+tulsa&hl=en&ll=36.06 67 32,-95.86943&spn=0.005139,0.006647&client=firefox-a&fb=1&gl=us&hq=unio n+high+school&hnear=0x87b692b8ddd12e8f:0xe76910c81bd96af7,Tulsa,+OK&ci d=0,0,2856521135297069003&t=h&z=18

Why does my highschool now have two football fields? The giant stadium with the multi-million dollar entertainment complex wasn't enough? Now there's a high quality baseball field too?
What the fark?
Oh yeah. Across the street you can see a Megachurch. I think it compliments it pretty well. The failed future of Oklahoma in one picture.
 
2013-05-12 04:59:39 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Radioactive Ass: If the issue is that there was a cross present and nothing else then I don't have an issue with it. The event isn't about the cross at all. If the school was getting a substantial discount over other entities for using the same space for the same amount of time then there may be a problem (unless the discount was because they had made a deal to do it there every year. My pool league had that type of deal with the location where we held our banquets, kinda a volume deal if you will).

A room is a room. If you need a place that can seat 500 people there isn't going to be a whole lot of options available for most people. As long as the bibles are put down and there is no proselytizing going on outside of the normal non-denominational benediction type thing which is done at many govt functions, including congress every day that it's on the clock, then I don't see the problem. It's not like looking at a cross is going to suddenly make you want to tithe 10% and go door to door waking people up on Saturday morning to talk to them about god.

Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.


That's probably crossing the line.
 
2013-05-12 04:59:43 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.


Well, shiat...the SCOTUS has been getting it wrong for decades!!  You should get to DC and straighten those idiots out!!
 
2013-05-12 04:59:56 PM

Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it


They probably don't hold a lot of classes in the gym. Our gymnasium doesn't have any AC and it can get to be a miserable biatch by the time graduation rolls around. Basketball and volleyball are during the winter, when AC isn't needed. The springtime sports like track and golf are outside sports, so the gym rarely gets used for anything after March or so other than spring concert and graduation. Spending the huge amount of money it would take to air condition it for 3 events each year simply wouldn't be cost effective.

Or, you know, the school board sat back in a smokey room in the middle of the night rubbing their hands with glee and giggling maniacally at the thought of intentionally designing a building without AC just as an excuse to make a few atheists uncomfortable for an hour or two. I'm sure it's either one or the other.
 
2013-05-12 05:07:01 PM
Or... Use a local auditorium. I'm sure there are plenty that would work with you, Mr. School District. But of course, that's not what you want. The "The Gym has no AC" is just a convenience for you, so it's easier for you to "Sanctify" your crappy little "Congrats on getting the right dots in order on a scantron sheet" ceremony with what will inevitably end up being rhetoric filled with "...In this house of god", etc, etc...
 
2013-05-12 05:08:19 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.


Hold it in a movie theater and the theater will have posters for movies all over the walls and might even invite the people back to watch a movie. So what. It doesn't mean that you now have to come back there to watch a movie that you're not interested in. Sheesh, get a thicker skin.

HairBolus: I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?


Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you ask them, and more importantly, why would those groups even want to rent a room of that size from them in the first place (other than to cause trouble, which would be reason enough to not rent it to them).
 
2013-05-12 05:09:48 PM
Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.
 
2013-05-12 05:11:18 PM

cman: School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.


Let's change the headline slightly ...

"Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local mosque." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins" "

Let's see how many heads explode at that one.
 
2013-05-12 05:11:50 PM

Radioactive Ass: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.

Hold it in a movie theater and the theater will have posters for movies all over the walls and might even invite the people back to watch a movie. So what. It doesn't mean that you now have to come back there to watch a movie that you're not interested in. Sheesh, get a thicker skin.

HairBolus: I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?

Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you ask them, and more importantly, why would those groups even want to rent a room of that size from them in the first place (other than to cause trouble, which would be reason enough to not rent it to them).


The Circuit Court disagrees with your "get a thicker skin" legal argument.
 
2013-05-12 05:15:54 PM

Somacandra: FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.



Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.


And this is also Brookfield, WI we're talking about, hardly a poverty-stricken district. Me thinks they have the money to air-condition the gym, but the money went ti the local PD to keep "da blacks" out. (Metro Milwaukee's a fatter, drunker version of South Africa).

This really shoukd be a non-story, plenty if places in Waukesha County that have AC that ciuld have hosted this, the Expo Center off of I-94 for example.
 
2013-05-12 05:17:51 PM

Somacandra: Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options.


Like the Safe House.

/seeing a thousand kids have to bunny-hop or hula-hoop their way into graduation would be hilarious
//miss me some MECCA GenCon
 
2013-05-12 05:25:40 PM

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.

Well, shiat...the SCOTUS has been getting it wrong for decades!!  You should get to DC and straighten those idiots out!!


wtf?   they got Lamb's Chapel, Rosenberger v. U Va, Westside v. Mergins and WIdmar v. Vincent right.
 
2013-05-12 05:31:48 PM
I graduated from high school a year before I moved to Wisconsin in 1990 at the Waterfront Park in Beaufort, SC on a hot June day. The stupid farking gown and the new three-piece I bought from Belk's to impress some chick (didnt work BTW) made me feel lkke a foil wrapped baked potato. Turned out well in the ebd though as three of my buddies and me (still clad in the suit) passed a doob in my car, which had the AC blasting.
 
2013-05-12 05:38:21 PM
So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?
 
2013-05-12 05:38:40 PM
If the school has some very religious Jews then they could probably raise a stink because some Jews won't enter a church.

Rabbi Naftali Brawer: "The rabbinic consensus, based on the Talmud (Avodah Zara 17a,) is that it is forbidden to enter a church, even if just to admire the architecture or artwork. This body of opinion spans the generations and comprises leading medieval Sephardic and Ashkenazi rabbis such as Maimonides, Rashba (Rabbi Solomon ben Aderet), Ritba (Rabbi Yom Tov ibn Asevilli) and Rosh (Rabbi Asher ben Yechiel), as well as contemporary halachists including Rabbis Moshe Feinstien, Ovadia Yosef and Eliezer Waldenberg."(i think the main idea is that Jews might get contaminated by idols for idol worship)


Then again, Brookfield doesn't seem to have any religious Jews because there are no synagogs there. so I guess the Christian majority can do whatever they want.
 
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