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(Chicago Trib)   Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local church." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 201
    More: Interesting, supreme courts, Wisconsin, local churches, air conditionings, 1st amendment, Muslim Mosque, graduation, establishment of religion  
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3134 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 May 2013 at 3:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-12 01:30:55 PM  
I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.
 
2013-05-12 01:35:46 PM  
photos1.blogger.com

doesn't appreciate being dragged into murky legal disputes.
 
2013-05-12 01:45:57 PM  
"Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"
 
2013-05-12 01:57:36 PM  
Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.
 
2013-05-12 02:00:49 PM  

Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"


To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:

w3.campusexplorer.com
 
2013-05-12 02:01:14 PM  
Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.
 
2013-05-12 02:06:09 PM  
So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it
 
2013-05-12 02:07:46 PM  
My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.
 
2013-05-12 02:25:14 PM  

CruiserTwelve: My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.


The courts don't really have too much of a beef with bible thumping at private schools. It's when all the Jesus pageantry is happening at a public school (paid for by taxpayer dollars) that makes the courts go full activist.

Likewise for groups like the ACLU, FRFF, etc. You can violate Matthew 6:5-6 to your heart's content and they won't even bat an eyelid at you, just so long as you don't spend so much as one penny in public funds to do so.
 
2013-05-12 02:26:01 PM  
School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.
 
2013-05-12 02:36:44 PM  

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.
 
2013-05-12 02:37:26 PM  
I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?
 
2013-05-12 02:39:57 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?



THIS20.
 
2013-05-12 02:41:37 PM  

DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?
 
2013-05-12 02:44:00 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?


A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.
 
2013-05-12 02:46:21 PM  
This will be extra convenient if a last-minute wedding is needed after the math teacher impregnates the Salutatorian
 
2013-05-12 02:46:57 PM  

Uranus Megahertz: Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.


Giving tax payer money directly to the chuch.  Yeah, that's legal.
 
2013-05-12 02:48:46 PM  
FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.

i.imgur.com

Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.
 
2013-05-12 02:50:10 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.


That is certainly true, although churches (usually liberal Protestant ones) that host organizational meetings (like AA or other ones) do them is classrooms or basements--not in the altar/worship space.
 
2013-05-12 02:51:46 PM  
My HS graduation was at the local college basketball arena every year. Air-conditioned but still pretty warm.

/csb
 
2013-05-12 03:05:46 PM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: Uranus Megahertz: Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.

Giving tax payer money directly to the chuch.  Yeah, that's legal.


For purely secular purposes, it probably would be so long as the rental price was reasonable.
 
2013-05-12 03:08:16 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it


THIS

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


THIS

Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"


THIS

CruiserTwelve: My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.


THIS!

Nabb1: The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May,


THIS

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


Because the money which should be spent on schools is being spent on churches.
Public or private, people determine where assets are allocated. They are choosing to spend money on magic sky potatoes, rather than education.
(Couldn't they have upgraded their school gym and rented the gym out to the church on the weekend? LOLOLOL)

So now for a couple of quick questions which were NOT addressed in the article:
1) how much is the school paying to rent the church?
2) if they are renting the space, then public money is being given to a private church and I have HUGE problems with this on many levels.
3) free or for a fee, do they make the space available to other groups for the same cost? why not?

shudder
It would be awesome if SCOTUS came down 9-0 against this and used one and all of the arguments presented here.
1) farkem, do it outside or in the stuffy gym like everyone used to do
2) you WANT CHURCH in your education, do like you are supposed to do, private religious schools.

HOW FARKING HARD IS THIS???

Do you notice that this is almost always protestants breaking this law and not Catholics?
Farking cheap stealing bastards.

/the final joke on those assholes would be establishing Roman Catholic as the one true faith of America!!!!!
 
2013-05-12 03:09:05 PM  
I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.
 
2013-05-12 03:10:29 PM  

Somacandra: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

That is certainly true, although churches (usually liberal Protestant ones) that host organizational meetings (like AA or other ones) do them is classrooms or basements--not in the altar/worship space.


THIS

and my guess is that few people would have a problem with this.
but in the end, farkem. bunch of whiney little biatches. too hot, might rain, blah blah blah blah
welcome to the real world

/why havent these people built religious private schools so they can have religious education for their children? why do they keep stealing from everyone else?
 
2013-05-12 03:14:27 PM  

maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.


It seemed rather clear.
No state religion.
You can be any religion that you want.
You can pray to any god you want.
Or no god at all.

If you are confused about what that means look up religious persecution and read about the Taliban, Saud Arabia, China, USSR, recent Coptic Church attacks, or any number of cases in recent history where people died because they refused to follow the state LAWS on religion.

or, even simpler
travel to saud arabia
stand in the street on a busy day and proclaim that islam is false religion, that mohammed is a false profit and that JESUS IS GOD.
write back to us with pics
we will wait here where it is safe
 
2013-05-12 03:16:56 PM  

remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.

Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.


i159.photobucket.com

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

 
2013-05-12 03:19:44 PM  

maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.




How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.
 
2013-05-12 03:21:02 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.


They might, sure, but I guess you wouldn't know what a particular church would do unless you asked.
 
2013-05-12 03:23:47 PM  

Nabb1: Lionel Mandrake: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

They might, sure, but I guess you wouldn't know what a particular church would do unless you asked.


The church might not have a problem, but FOX news would be swarming around like flies on shiat.  Hannity would probably broadcast from the church.  I don't even want to think about where Beck would go with this.
 
2013-05-12 03:28:33 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Nabb1: Lionel Mandrake: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

They might, sure, but I guess you wouldn't know what a particular church would do unless you asked.

The church might not have a problem, but FOX news would be swarming around like flies on shiat.  Hannity would probably broadcast from the church.  I don't even want to think about where Beck would go with this.


If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.
 
2013-05-12 03:40:28 PM  

Nabb1: If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.


Right.  It's easier to believe that covering up the cross was suggested and rejected than to believe no one ever thought of it.
 
2013-05-12 03:48:43 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Nabb1: If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.

Right.  It's easier to believe that covering up the cross was suggested and rejected than to believe no one ever thought of it.


It could have been that way, or that could have been offered and rejected by the plaintiffs as insufficient. The article doesn't say either way.
 
2013-05-12 03:56:16 PM  
So say I don't belong to that church and don't want to be forced to go there for graduation. Now what? Have I not earned my opportunity to clomp across the stage? Has graduation became a privilege to be granted based on other criteria?
 
2013-05-12 03:59:31 PM  

cman: School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.


They were going to take a page out of Carrie, and trick some Muslim kid onstage and dump a big bucket of holy water on them, while a priest ran up and baptized them.
 
2013-05-12 03:59:56 PM  

Nabb1: Lionel Mandrake: Nabb1: If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.

Right.  It's easier to believe that covering up the cross was suggested and rejected than to believe no one ever thought of it.

It could have been that way, or that could have been offered and rejected by the plaintiffs as insufficient. The article doesn't say either way.


I wasn't specifying sides one way or the other.  There's no shortage of douchebags on these issues, even if they're on "my" side.
 
2013-05-12 04:00:02 PM  

Somacandra: FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.

[i.imgur.com image 492x348]

Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.


Not to mention it's Elmbrook, you get top flight HVAC people out there like a shot just by passing the hat at a PTA meeting,
 
2013-05-12 04:02:18 PM  
DarwiOdrade:On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Because we cant disenfranchise the job creators and unfortunately it seems like we do unless we loan them the money for their education. Then it is valued VERY highly at 3.75% interest
 
2013-05-12 04:03:11 PM  

Somacandra: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

That is certainly true, although churches (usually liberal Protestant ones) that host organizational meetings (like AA or other ones) do them is classrooms or basements--not in the altar/worship space.


There's an United Church of Christ church here in Seattle that hosts daily Catholic Masses and Muslim services.
 
2013-05-12 04:03:29 PM  

Nabb1: TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.

The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.


Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed doesn't bother you a bit but a little heat makes you go all wilty?  I stopped believing much of anything you said years ago, but I'm inclined to believe you on this one
 
2013-05-12 04:03:32 PM  

Bane of Broone: DarwiOdrade:On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Because we cant disenfranchise the job creators and unfortunately it seems like we do unless we loan them the money for their education. Then it is valued VERY highly at 3.75% interest


Gah, I meant it was unfortunate that we value education so little. Please don't think I believe taxes on the wealthy would be unfortunate, lol.
 
2013-05-12 04:04:08 PM  
As somebody who could not care less about going to a graduation ceremony (skipped 3 so far) it's a bit hard for me to care about this much...
 
2013-05-12 04:06:36 PM  

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


The fact the state of WI took a hatchet to the education budget probably didn't help fix the gym that is falling apart.
 
2013-05-12 04:07:09 PM  
My friend's son graduated from high school last year, and the ceremony was held at a church.  When I asked why, he replied, "Welcome to Georgia!"
 
2013-05-12 04:07:15 PM  

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


Likewise, many non-Christians (even athiests and satanists) have set foot inside a church or cathedral for secular purposes without bursting into flames at the sight of a religious symbol.
 
2013-05-12 04:07:33 PM  
Having a state school hold a ceremony in a Church is not the same exact thing as the Congress establishing a religion.
 
2013-05-12 04:08:00 PM  
Mail the diplomas home and fark the hoopla.  Nobody goes through 12 years of schooling dreaming about that "Big Day."
 
2013-05-12 04:09:19 PM  

TwoHead: Nabb1: TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.

The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.

Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed doesn't bother you a bit but a little heat makes you go all wilty?  I stopped believing much of anything you said years ago, but I'm inclined to believe you on this one


You're reading comprehension could use some polishing. I was outside in the ceremony, but my grandmother was in the auditorium. And this may or may not have been too much of an endorsement, but I don't think the mere fact that the ceremony itself was in a church is sufficient. Churches are often used as polling places in elections in some places, usually without incident. But as long as the ceremony is completely secular, I'd be okay with it. If they include prayers, that would be problematic.
 
2013-05-12 04:10:04 PM  

TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed


What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.
 
2013-05-12 04:11:58 PM  
Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.
 
2013-05-12 04:12:19 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.


He's afraid if he sees a cross, he'll suddenly love Jesus, I guess.
 
2013-05-12 04:14:06 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.


Well, it would be ridiculous if that were true. They are considered the same as secular non-profits as far as the tax code goes.
 
2013-05-12 04:14:11 PM  
Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.

What are their Fark names?

Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it


You know it is a difference in having 40 or 50 people in a gym for an hour long class and having a few hundred sitting for a couple of hours for a graduation.

And the same people that are complaining about this would probably loose their shiat and be all like "Stop spending money on athletics" if they decided to upgrade the gym.
 
2013-05-12 04:16:08 PM  

cman: School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.


Who run Derpertown (Midwest)?  Jesus run Derpertown.
 
2013-05-12 04:16:11 PM  
The Las Vegas Rules of Local Governance:

If no one has complained so far in the state where the grey area is tested hundreds of times a year, let's just take the chance.
 
2013-05-12 04:18:03 PM  

Mrtraveler01: The fact the state of WI took a hatchet to the education budget probably didn't help fix the gym that is falling apart.


Suburban schoools like this one didn't feel much from the last budget.  It mostly brought the boom down on Milwaukee and the rural districts.   And in places like Elbrook a fair majority was cheering for the cuts from the start.
 
2013-05-12 04:18:29 PM  
does this mean i wont have to vote in a church soon?
 
2013-05-12 04:20:42 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am...etc.
 
2013-05-12 04:22:20 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.


The right at issue here seems to be the right to a graduation ceremony free of the slightest unpleasantry.  The Bridezilla right, you might say.
 
2013-05-12 04:22:44 PM  

Nabb1: tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.

He's afraid if he sees a cross, he'll suddenly love Jesus, I guess.


I bet he doesn't listen to the end of 0bama's State of the Union when he said "God bless you, and God bless the United States of America."

ohhhh, his rights would be violated if he heard that.
 
2013-05-12 04:22:45 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.


Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.
 
2013-05-12 04:26:42 PM  

cman: TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.

Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.


some do. others don't. hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.
 
2013-05-12 04:27:05 PM  

ongbok: Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.

What are their Fark names?


Well, the good news is that you don't have any legal grounds to win a suit for being uncomfortable or offended.   If you did, the amount of money Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and Horders would have to pay out would be huge.

This is just a farking money grab.  They are hoping they get a soft-headed jury.
 
2013-05-12 04:29:49 PM  

Hobodeluxe: cman: TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.

Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.

some do. others don't. hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.


Where can I find the financial statements of churches?
 
2013-05-12 04:31:33 PM  

Tumunga: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am...etc.


I honestly don't care.

I'm just upset that the school is moving the event just because it has no AC.

It's farking WI in springtime, how hot does it get up there?
 
2013-05-12 04:32:28 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


Here's the thing... this isn't about endorsing a particular religion.  Churches make some people uncomfortable, I don't like going into them.  I have and will for two reasons, weddings and funerals, and that's out of respect for the people involved in those events.   High school graduation, though, shouldn't be something that someone is forced to go into a church to attend.

/my high school graduation was in a church
//they made the atheist salutatorian say a prayer
///fark the south
 
2013-05-12 04:35:40 PM  

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


Schools in many urban and suburban areas of the country are older buildings.  As buildings age, they typically require greater and greater upkeep.  However "aging infrastructure requires more funding to keep it operational" does not have the same rhetorical impact as "teachers cartel asks for more money and turns out dumber kids ever year".  Even for school supporters, "invested $400,000 in HVAC upgrades and ductwork" doesn't sell as well as "invested $400,000  in smart boards and hands-on technology upgrades".
 
2013-05-12 04:35:43 PM  

Hobodeluxe: hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.


citation or are you making this up again?
 
2013-05-12 04:35:43 PM  
From another article:

Americans United explained that holding graduations in the religious environment of the church violates the Constitution. The mega-church outside Milwaukee failed to remove religious symbols and texts during the graduation ceremonies. In fact, students and parents sat in pews with Bibles and hymnal books directly in front of them, and also saw church promotional materials telling children that they were "God's Little Lambs" and inviting all attendees to return to the church so that they can "know how to become a Christian."

Elmbrook Church even displayed a large cross, which church officials refused to cover, in the sanctuary where graduation ceremonies were held.

The mega-church also attacks the beliefs and identities of some of the students and parents who had to go to the church to attend their graduations. The church condemns atheists as people "who think they are smarter than God." It refers to homosexuality as "not an acceptable lifestyle" and "contrary to God's will."

Americans United noted that there are many non-religious facilities available for the graduation ceremonies, and other school districts in the area make use of them.

...

Writing for the majority, Judge Joel M. Flaum said holding a public school commencement in the Elmbrook Church sanctuary conveyed "an impermissible message of endorsement" of religion and was "religiously coercive."
 
2013-05-12 04:35:50 PM  

Mrtraveler01: It's farking WI in springtime, how hot does it get up there?


It might be 85 and humid or 35 and windy, we're never sure.  It's more that you can't have that many people who, let's face it, aren't skinny in that amount of space.
 
2013-05-12 04:35:56 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


Both of these.

We live in a quite nice area, where the only suitable auditorium large enough for high school graduations, etc., is the...fundamentalist church. And not only the auditorium, but parking and street access. They cover the crosses and close their prominent religious gift shop, and everyone is fine with it.

It's not just if the gym is big enough or nice enough, you know. It's whether everyone can park there, and get in and out without having to close down all the streets.
 
2013-05-12 04:36:16 PM  

namatad: DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.

Because the money which should be spent on schools is being spent on churches.
Public or private, people determine where assets are allocated. They are choosing to spend money on magic sky potatoes, rather than education.
(Couldn't they have upgraded their school gym and rented the gym out to the church on the weekend? LOLOLOL)

So now for a couple of quick questions which were NOT addressed in the article:
1) how much is the school paying to rent the church?
2) if they are renting the space, then public money is being given to a private church and I have HUGE problems with this on many levels.
3) free or for a fee, do they make the space available to other groups for the same cost? why not?

shudder
It would be awesome if SCOTUS came down 9-0 ...


FWIW I agree that the money spent on churches would be better spent on schools, and I also have a problem with public money being spent to rent the space from the church. However, there is no mention in TFA of a rental agreement - the question is whether or not churches (or synagogues, or mosques) are a priori off limits to public functions simply because they primarily associated with a religion. If the church donated the space, and if the religious symbols were covered up for the ceremony, or the ceremony were held in another part of the building - someone mentioned the basement - I see no reason why a public school should be prohibited from having its graduation ceremony in a church.
 
2013-05-12 04:40:01 PM  

Hobodeluxe: cman: TofuTheAlmighty: Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.

Churches do have their part in the community

Many homeless people would go hungry if not for a church who operated a soup kitchen. They also take part in food drives for the poor. They also do drives for other goods like diapers and soap. They do christmas gifts for the unfortunate. They have substance abuse classes.

To say that the Church doesnt use its funds for charity is completely false.

some do. others don't. hardly any of them spend a significant portion of their income towards helping the community.


A lot of the charitable work is done by volunteers. Our parish soup kitchen welcomes any help. If you'd like to help out, we'd love to have a hand.
 
2013-05-12 04:42:16 PM  

Tumunga: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am intellectuallycrippled by stereotypes and unable to divorce my partisanship from the issues.

 
2013-05-12 04:43:03 PM  
Pussies. My high school graduation was held at the football field in the middle of the afternoon during a typical hot, muggy May day in southwest Virginia.
 
2013-05-12 04:44:09 PM  
Hiding the state of school facilites from people who don't usually see it is a proper way to show the life of students.

Besides, if this is allowed to happen, how many small Texas town would be doing this very same thing.  And oops, they may forget to cover up a few religious symbols.
 
2013-05-12 04:45:21 PM  

remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.


That wouldn't go well. When Obama gave a speech at Georgetown rightwingers threw a fit about the name of Jesus being covered.

cnsnews.com

Then again if Obama had given a speech with "Jesus" right above his head, rightwingers would have had a different type of fit.

Maybe they thought that without the cover, Jesus would have driven the anti-Christ Obama away or at least prevented him from speaking.
 
2013-05-12 04:45:22 PM  
If the issue is that there was a cross present and nothing else then I don't have an issue with it. The event isn't about the cross at all. If the school was getting a substantial discount over other entities for using the same space for the same amount of time then there may be a problem (unless the discount was because they had made a deal to do it there every year. My pool league had that type of deal with the location where we held our banquets, kinda a volume deal if you will).

A room is a room. If you need a place that can seat 500 people there isn't going to be a whole lot of options available for most people. As long as the bibles are put down and there is no proselytizing going on outside of the normal non-denominational benediction type thing which is done at many govt functions, including congress every day that it's on the clock, then I don't see the problem. It's not like looking at a cross is going to suddenly make you want to tithe 10% and go door to door waking people up on Saturday morning to talk to them about god.
 
2013-05-12 04:47:24 PM  

HairBolus: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.

That wouldn't go well. When Obama gave a speech at Georgetown rightwingers threw a fit about the name of Jesus being covered.

[cnsnews.com image 220x147]

Then again if Obama had given a speech with "Jesus" right above his head, rightwingers would have had a different type of fit.


Hells - Obama can't even stand in front of the presidential seal without rightwingers having a fit.
nation.foxnews.com
 
2013-05-12 04:49:35 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: From another article:

Writing for the majority, Judge Joel M. Flaum said holding a public school commencement in the Elmbrook Church sanctuary conveyed "an impermissible message of endorsement" of religion and was "religiously coercive."


So the judge felt that having their religious freedom trampled was a bit more than the slightest of unpleasantries?  He must have read the Constitution.

My personal relationship with Jesus allows me to share whispered jokes with him about the folks in this thread who probably think of themselves as Christians.  He loves you all the same, but even He can't help but giggle when you guys get your holy rolling
 
2013-05-12 04:49:51 PM  
Nobody seems to have noticed that the Supreme Court hasn't actually ruled on this one or denied cert yet.
 
2013-05-12 04:50:14 PM  

Radioactive Ass: If the issue is that there was a cross present and nothing else then I don't have an issue with it. The event isn't about the cross at all. If the school was getting a substantial discount over other entities for using the same space for the same amount of time then there may be a problem (unless the discount was because they had made a deal to do it there every year. My pool league had that type of deal with the location where we held our banquets, kinda a volume deal if you will).

A room is a room. If you need a place that can seat 500 people there isn't going to be a whole lot of options available for most people. As long as the bibles are put down and there is no proselytizing going on outside of the normal non-denominational benediction type thing which is done at many govt functions, including congress every day that it's on the clock, then I don't see the problem. It's not like looking at a cross is going to suddenly make you want to tithe 10% and go door to door waking people up on Saturday morning to talk to them about god.


Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.
 
2013-05-12 04:51:02 PM  

Radioactive Ass: A room is a room.


I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?
 
2013-05-12 04:52:23 PM  

HairBolus: Radioactive Ass: A room is a room.

I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?


Maybe not that church, but others would.
 
2013-05-12 04:53:50 PM  
if they can have graduations outdoors in southern states i don't see why wisconsin can't, i'm sure it's a lot more comfortable
 
2013-05-12 04:54:32 PM  

HairBolus: Radioactive Ass: A room is a room.

I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?


Would you attend one if they did?
 
2013-05-12 04:56:19 PM  
TuteTibiImperes:
To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


That's so alien to me, since that exact situation was my experience in high school.
The school itself was a rundown shiathole, but athletics could not have enough money spent on it.
Hmm I wonder how it is now...
Yep, it's about the same, just more exaggereated. It seems the actual school part was renovated finally, but it's still clearly in the back of the minds of the school system.
Google map aerial view:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=union+high+school+tulsa&hl=en&ll=36.06 67 32,-95.86943&spn=0.005139,0.006647&client=firefox-a&fb=1&gl=us&hq=unio n+high+school&hnear=0x87b692b8ddd12e8f:0xe76910c81bd96af7,Tulsa,+OK&ci d=0,0,2856521135297069003&t=h&z=18

Why does my highschool now have two football fields? The giant stadium with the multi-million dollar entertainment complex wasn't enough? Now there's a high quality baseball field too?
What the fark?
Oh yeah. Across the street you can see a Megachurch. I think it compliments it pretty well. The failed future of Oklahoma in one picture.
 
2013-05-12 04:59:39 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Radioactive Ass: If the issue is that there was a cross present and nothing else then I don't have an issue with it. The event isn't about the cross at all. If the school was getting a substantial discount over other entities for using the same space for the same amount of time then there may be a problem (unless the discount was because they had made a deal to do it there every year. My pool league had that type of deal with the location where we held our banquets, kinda a volume deal if you will).

A room is a room. If you need a place that can seat 500 people there isn't going to be a whole lot of options available for most people. As long as the bibles are put down and there is no proselytizing going on outside of the normal non-denominational benediction type thing which is done at many govt functions, including congress every day that it's on the clock, then I don't see the problem. It's not like looking at a cross is going to suddenly make you want to tithe 10% and go door to door waking people up on Saturday morning to talk to them about god.

Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.


That's probably crossing the line.
 
2013-05-12 04:59:43 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.


Well, shiat...the SCOTUS has been getting it wrong for decades!!  You should get to DC and straighten those idiots out!!
 
2013-05-12 04:59:56 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it


They probably don't hold a lot of classes in the gym. Our gymnasium doesn't have any AC and it can get to be a miserable biatch by the time graduation rolls around. Basketball and volleyball are during the winter, when AC isn't needed. The springtime sports like track and golf are outside sports, so the gym rarely gets used for anything after March or so other than spring concert and graduation. Spending the huge amount of money it would take to air condition it for 3 events each year simply wouldn't be cost effective.

Or, you know, the school board sat back in a smokey room in the middle of the night rubbing their hands with glee and giggling maniacally at the thought of intentionally designing a building without AC just as an excuse to make a few atheists uncomfortable for an hour or two. I'm sure it's either one or the other.
 
2013-05-12 05:07:01 PM  
Or... Use a local auditorium. I'm sure there are plenty that would work with you, Mr. School District. But of course, that's not what you want. The "The Gym has no AC" is just a convenience for you, so it's easier for you to "Sanctify" your crappy little "Congrats on getting the right dots in order on a scantron sheet" ceremony with what will inevitably end up being rhetoric filled with "...In this house of god", etc, etc...
 
2013-05-12 05:08:19 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.


Hold it in a movie theater and the theater will have posters for movies all over the walls and might even invite the people back to watch a movie. So what. It doesn't mean that you now have to come back there to watch a movie that you're not interested in. Sheesh, get a thicker skin.

HairBolus: I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?


Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you ask them, and more importantly, why would those groups even want to rent a room of that size from them in the first place (other than to cause trouble, which would be reason enough to not rent it to them).
 
2013-05-12 05:09:48 PM  
Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.
 
2013-05-12 05:11:18 PM  

cman: School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.


Let's change the headline slightly ...

"Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local mosque." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins" "

Let's see how many heads explode at that one.
 
2013-05-12 05:11:50 PM  

Radioactive Ass: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Nothing was covered or otherwise removed. The parents and students sat in pews with Bibles, and were handed their diplomas under a twenty foot cross, and those assembled were told they should return to the church later to learn how to be better Christians and love God. It was basically one Bible verse away from being a Sunday church service.

Hold it in a movie theater and the theater will have posters for movies all over the walls and might even invite the people back to watch a movie. So what. It doesn't mean that you now have to come back there to watch a movie that you're not interested in. Sheesh, get a thicker skin.

HairBolus: I really doubt this was just renting a room.

Would the church rent out their facilities to gay or atheist groups?

Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you ask them, and more importantly, why would those groups even want to rent a room of that size from them in the first place (other than to cause trouble, which would be reason enough to not rent it to them).


The Circuit Court disagrees with your "get a thicker skin" legal argument.
 
2013-05-12 05:15:54 PM  

Somacandra: FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.



Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.


And this is also Brookfield, WI we're talking about, hardly a poverty-stricken district. Me thinks they have the money to air-condition the gym, but the money went ti the local PD to keep "da blacks" out. (Metro Milwaukee's a fatter, drunker version of South Africa).

This really shoukd be a non-story, plenty if places in Waukesha County that have AC that ciuld have hosted this, the Expo Center off of I-94 for example.
 
2013-05-12 05:17:51 PM  

Somacandra: Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options.


Like the Safe House.

/seeing a thousand kids have to bunny-hop or hula-hoop their way into graduation would be hilarious
//miss me some MECCA GenCon
 
2013-05-12 05:25:40 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.

Well, shiat...the SCOTUS has been getting it wrong for decades!!  You should get to DC and straighten those idiots out!!


wtf?   they got Lamb's Chapel, Rosenberger v. U Va, Westside v. Mergins and WIdmar v. Vincent right.
 
2013-05-12 05:31:48 PM  
I graduated from high school a year before I moved to Wisconsin in 1990 at the Waterfront Park in Beaufort, SC on a hot June day. The stupid farking gown and the new three-piece I bought from Belk's to impress some chick (didnt work BTW) made me feel lkke a foil wrapped baked potato. Turned out well in the ebd though as three of my buddies and me (still clad in the suit) passed a doob in my car, which had the AC blasting.
 
2013-05-12 05:38:21 PM  
So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?
 
2013-05-12 05:38:40 PM  
If the school has some very religious Jews then they could probably raise a stink because some Jews won't enter a church.

Rabbi Naftali Brawer: "The rabbinic consensus, based on the Talmud (Avodah Zara 17a,) is that it is forbidden to enter a church, even if just to admire the architecture or artwork. This body of opinion spans the generations and comprises leading medieval Sephardic and Ashkenazi rabbis such as Maimonides, Rashba (Rabbi Solomon ben Aderet), Ritba (Rabbi Yom Tov ibn Asevilli) and Rosh (Rabbi Asher ben Yechiel), as well as contemporary halachists including Rabbis Moshe Feinstien, Ovadia Yosef and Eliezer Waldenberg."(i think the main idea is that Jews might get contaminated by idols for idol worship)


Then again, Brookfield doesn't seem to have any religious Jews because there are no synagogs there. so I guess the Christian majority can do whatever they want.
 
2013-05-12 05:45:34 PM  

Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.


I think they worship golden idols of Mohammed, Termagent, and Apollo.
 
2013-05-12 05:48:17 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.

Well, shiat...the SCOTUS has been getting it wrong for decades!!  You should get to DC and straighten those idiots out!!

wtf?   they got Lamb's Chapel, Rosenberger v. U Va, Westside v. Mergins and WIdmar v. Vincent right.


wtf do those cases have to do with this case?  You're comparing apples and toasters.
 
2013-05-12 05:51:47 PM  

HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?


Technically, Knights of Columbus is a Catholic organization.  Not a church, sure, but still might make some people uncomfortable.

I'm a Freemason.  I'm sure if someone used a lodge for something like this, they'd be freaking out about teaching kids demon worship or some damned ridiculous thing.

I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church.  The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons).  Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy.  It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.
 
2013-05-12 06:01:17 PM  

Bloody Templar: HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?

Technically, Knights of Columbus is a Catholic organization.  Not a church, sure, but still might make some people uncomfortable.

I'm a Freemason.  I'm sure if someone used a lodge for something like this, they'd be freaking out about teaching kids demon worship or some damned ridiculous thing.

I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church.  The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons).  Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy.  It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.


I've never been in a church that was "just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais."  Usually, at least at the ones I've been to, there's a lot of religious decor that would be inappropriate at a government event, even if the clergy themselves are uninvolved.  Knights of Columbus may be a nominally religious organization, but KoC halls (or at least my local one) usually aren't decorated in an overtly religious manner, nor is the building's primary purpose to be a house of worship.

And DeVry, being a private institution, can hold their event wherever they damn well please.  This, on the other hand, is a public school.
 
2013-05-12 06:04:52 PM  
Bloody Templar:I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church.  The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons).  Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy.  It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.

That's not a public, tax-payer supported institution.
 
2013-05-12 06:07:25 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.


Well they are trying to prohibit it.
 
2013-05-12 06:09:21 PM  
My voting precinct was First Assembly of God Church. Felt good to cast a vote there for the Muslim Atheist Fascist Socialist Communist Fartbama.
 
2013-05-12 06:14:27 PM  

maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.


In what way?
 
2013-05-12 06:14:54 PM  

HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?


This a pretty wealthy end of the area; they don't want their kids having their graduation in some dingy beer hall.

/VFW hall... what are we, famers?
 
2013-05-12 06:20:09 PM  

namatad: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

It seemed rather clear.
No state religion.
You can be any religion that you want.
You can pray to any god you want.
Or no god at all.

If you are confused about what that means look up religious persecution and read about the Taliban, Saud Arabia, China, USSR, recent Coptic Church attacks, or any number of cases in recent history where people died because they refused to follow the state LAWS on religion.

or, even simpler
travel to saud arabia
stand in the street on a busy day and proclaim that islam is false religion, that mohammed is a false profit and that JESUS IS GOD.
write back to us with pics
we will wait here where it is safe


I think you mistake my meaning. We the collective peoples of the US are allowed to worship or not, but the constitution forbades the state from stopping or forcing any religion upon the people. So if a school wants its graduation in a church then the state cannot help nor hinder that process. The 1950's Supreme court ruled was that prayer would not be allowed in school, I remember I was in the 4th or 5th grade when that ruling came down. The court who made that ruling had 3 members who were KU KLUX KlAN members. Stopping prayers in school was the start worshiping the state rather than G#D..
 
2013-05-12 06:29:03 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


You may be "libby lib" but that doesn't mean you and no one else is ever going to drag me or my non-existent kids into a church to graduate from a public school.

IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
AND IT'S A GOOD LAW.
 
2013-05-12 06:33:50 PM  
Somacandra: Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue  Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.

www.esplatter.com
 
2013-05-12 06:35:52 PM  

TwoHead: Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.


See, high schoolers can't drink before the ceremony as you once did. Perhaps it was the drink that permitted you to not give a shiat about the heat.
 
2013-05-12 06:41:30 PM  

jmr61: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You may be "libby lib" but that doesn't mean you and no one else is ever going to drag me or my non-existent kids into a church to graduate from a public school.

IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
AND IT'S A GOOD LAW.


You better read the law again, snookums. Graduating kids from a public school, even at a church, is totally legal so long as it meets the Lemon test:

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. The burden is not on the church. It's on the school. And so long as the school can show that they had a secular purpose in choosing the church building (more room, better parking, air conditioning, whatever); that they were not "advancing or inhibiting religion" (ensured that religious symbols were covered, Bibles or Torahs removed from view); and there was no "excessive entanglement" with religion (no special recognition for Church members, no advertising in the program)....then there is NOTHING that would stop the school using the church for graduation ceremonies.

Except that it upsets the delicate sensibilities of people like you, who think that acknowledging the existence of a god at all is the same as forcing you to worship against your will.
 
2013-05-12 06:41:44 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: You're comparing apples and toasters.


*whynotboth.jpg*

www.easyvegan.info
 
2013-05-12 06:51:02 PM  

Nabb1: For purely secular purposes, it probably would be so long as the rental price was reasonable.


No, because you're using tax payer money to partake in commerce with an organization that exists solely for religious purposes. They are not a business, they are a religious organization.
 
2013-05-12 06:52:07 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Lionel Mandrake: You're comparing apples and toasters.

*whynotboth.jpg*

[www.easyvegan.info image 500x310]


nice

clapping.gif
 
2013-05-12 06:53:11 PM  
Hmmm.... something familiar 'bout this... like I may have seen a ruling on such a matter before... like it happened... just a few years ago... in my own state....

http://www.acluct.org/aboutus/pressroom/enfieldsuitruling.htm

Oh yea. Cause it did.

/I know, CT precedent doesn't hold in WI
//pretty damn sure the outcome will be the same, though.
 
2013-05-12 06:56:51 PM  
remember: using taxes to pay for the upkeep of schools, bridges, roads and other infrastructure is COMMUNIST*.


*unless you're doing it in iraq or afghanistan
 
2013-05-12 07:01:24 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: Google map aerial view:



WTF? John Q. Hammons didn't have enough shiat named after him in Springfield MO, so he drove to Tulsa to slap his name on more stuff?

Christ, what an ego that man must have...
 
2013-05-12 07:02:58 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith.


That is a huge leap from making a law establishing a religion and saying something positive about a religion.
 
2013-05-12 07:14:44 PM  

phaseolus: God-is-a-Taco: Google map aerial view:


WTF? John Q. Hammons didn't have enough shiat named after him in Springfield MO, so he drove to Tulsa to slap his name on more stuff?

Christ, what an ego that man must have...


shiat, that guyhas a street named after him in Middleton, WI
 
2013-05-12 07:17:08 PM  

HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?


Waukesha County has an air conditioned Expo Center about eight miles up the road
 
2013-05-12 07:29:33 PM  

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


Same here. Thing is, it was also 40 degrees outside on the night of our ceremony, and they just opened some doors. I don't even recall our school ever turning the AC on once in my years there.
 
2013-05-12 07:35:58 PM  

Gyrfalcon: jmr61: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You may be "libby lib" but that doesn't mean you and no one else is ever going to drag me or my non-existent kids into a church to graduate from a public school.

IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
AND IT'S A GOOD LAW.

You better read the law again, snookums. Graduating kids from a public school, even at a church, is totally legal so long as it meets the Lemon test:

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. The burden is not on the church. It's on the school. And so long as the school can show that they had a secular purpose in choosing the church building (more room, better parking, air conditioning, whatever); that they were not "advancing or inhibiting religion" (ensured that religious symbols were covered, Bibles or Torahs removed from view); and there was no "excessive entanglement" with religion (no special recognition for Church members, no advertising in the program)....then there is NOTHING that would stop the school using the church for graduation ceremonies.

Except that it upsets the delicate sensibilities of people like you, who think that acknowledging the existence of a god at all is the same as forcing you to worship against your will.


Say a Muslim mosque offers its services to host a graduation.  If the school turns them down flat, it violates the second prong of the Lemon test (as it advances Christianity while inhibiting Islam). If the school accepts them, it is on the slippery slope of violating the third prong of the Lemon test (especially if a Jewish synagogue, a Wiccan coven, and other denominations of Christianity chip in to volunteer their gatherings for graduations).  Either way, it would fail the Lemon test in this regard.

Now, are the circumstances important enough that this distinction changes if no other religious entity offers their services?  What if, instead of the mosque, the owner of a local hotel offers his dance hall for the graduation? The dance hall has no affiliation with any religion (though it often hosts wedding receptions and Sunday brunches), making it a true "non-denominational" choice for a graduation. Would turning a secular space down flat in favor of a space hosted by a religious entity in itself violate prong 2 of the Lemon test? Might it violate prong 3?
 
2013-05-12 07:45:50 PM  
Another cherry-picked "news" story to make the separation of church and state look like the bad guy, ladies and gentlemen.
 
2013-05-12 08:03:53 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Mail the diplomas home and fark the hoopla.  Nobody goes through 12 years of schooling dreaming about that "Big Day."


When I graduated from high school back in the caveman days (1980), my parents and bunches of other relatives were at the ceremony. I was one of the first generation to graduate from high school (my father never did, my mother graduated from a "training school - the district wouldn't allow where the black kids went to be called "high school" like the white kids place) with honors or at all, and it was important. I went to that ceremony not just for me, but more importantly for them.

When I graduated from college in may of 2012 after lots of life happening and 6 years of busting my ass to get my magna cum laude while living on potatoes, generic salami and cheese for months at a time, that was important too. I went to that ceremony, and I enjoyed the living f*ck out of it, wishing it would never end. Then I partied for two days straight with various classmates, since I was usually the only one old enough to buy beer without ID.

Point is that some people take a lot of stuff for granted. If you were fortunate enough to live and grow up in a household where everyone graduated from high school and then went off to college as if that was the norm, I'm happy for you. For some of us though, these ceremonies are important because we never thought we would get here. There are still families here who are having their first high school graduation ever - in 2013 -  and will attend when their graduate walks down to get their diplomas this month. It is important to them, and they deserve to celebrate it.
 
2013-05-12 08:20:15 PM  
They're not letting the poor kids in, are they? My understanding is that they don't deserve air conditioning. Makes them uppity.
 
2013-05-12 08:26:54 PM  

Bloody Templar: I'm a staunch defender of the establishment clause, but I'm having a hard time seeing a problem with using a church. The local DeVry University had their graduation in the big Church of Christ temple in Independence, MO (Church of Christ is an offshoot sect of the Mormons). Prayer wasn't involved, nor were clergy. It was just a big building with a lot of seats and a dais.


No. This is completely and utterly factually incorrect. While I am an atheist, I grew up in the CofC, and my entire extended family attends the CofC. The CofC never at any time had anything to do with the Mormon faith. The CofC came about as a result of the Restoration movement in the late 19th century US, when people wanted to get rid of the hierarchy involved in some organized churches across congregations, and also wanted to return to what they believed was how the 1st century Christians worshiped. This had absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism.

Having said that, my 8th grade (public school) graduation was held in the local CofC, and my (public) high school was held in the auditorium of the local CofC-affiliated university (which was also used for daily mandatory chapel services for all students, so some might consider it a church). One of the advantages to using the CofC buildings is that they are almost entirely devoid of religious symbols and iconography - no steeples, crucifixes, etc.

Check out the wiki if you're curious, it's pretty accurate. You've been seriously misinformed about the CofC if you think it had at any point anything to do with the Mormon church.
 
2013-05-12 08:29:22 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"

To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


I went to a hicktown high school in hillbilly Indiana. School built in 1920, exposed asbestos, heat was always too much or not enough, paint chipped and faded, floor tiles cracked and broken, carpets worn smooth, many windows painted over, bathrooms an abomination, whole place smelled. It was a pit.

The gym was only a few years old, state of the art (for the time), and seated 3000 easily. Huge lobby adjacent for trophy cases.

It was not hard to work out the priorities.
 
2013-05-12 08:31:03 PM  

cmb53208: HeartBurnKid: So... is there a reason why the church is the only suitable venue?  Isn't there a VFW hall or a Knights of Columbus building or the like they could have it at?

Waukesha County has an air conditioned Expo Center about eight miles up the road


I think cost also was a factor. I know around where I live, churches usually rent out their facilities at a price that is much lower than other venues.
 
2013-05-12 08:34:29 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"

To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


A decade? When I went to high school in the late nineties the American history textbooks ended with Watergate.
 
2013-05-12 08:43:39 PM  

Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.


This is my point exactly. It's "ok" if it's a church, but not if it's a Mosque. This is how all religious issues should be considered in this country. If it's ok for a Christian or a church, but not ok for a Muslim or a Mosque, then it isn't ok. Period.
 
2013-05-12 08:54:23 PM  

mod3072: Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it

They probably don't hold a lot of classes in the gym. Our gymnasium doesn't have any AC and it can get to be a miserable biatch by the time graduation rolls around. Basketball and volleyball are during the winter, when AC isn't needed. The springtime sports like track and golf are outside sports, so the gym rarely gets used for anything after March or so other than spring concert and graduation. Spending the huge amount of money it would take to air condition it for 3 events each year simply wouldn't be cost effective.

Or, you know, the school board sat back in a smokey room in the middle of the night rubbing their hands with glee and giggling maniacally at the thought of intentionally designing a building without AC just as an excuse to make a few atheists uncomfortable for an hour or two. I'm sure it's either one or the other.


Lack of A/C isn't supposed to be the only problem. but you already knew that
 
2013-05-12 08:54:24 PM  

wildsnowllama: TuteTibiImperes: Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"

To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:

A decade? When I went to high school in the late nineties the American history textbooks ended with Watergate.


When my stepson was in 8th grade about 10 years ago, the textbooks still showed the Soviet Union on maps. Fark this country's blah blah about education. We only change the textbooks once in 20 years because they cost $200 apiece thanks to the rigged game that siphons off money for connected patrons of politicians.
 
2013-05-12 08:55:27 PM  

mod3072: Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it

They probably don't hold a lot of classes in the gym. Our gymnasium doesn't have any AC and it can get to be a miserable biatch by the time graduation rolls around. Basketball and volleyball are during the winter, when AC isn't needed. The springtime sports like track and golf are outside sports, so the gym rarely gets used for anything after March or so other than spring concert and graduation. Spending the huge amount of money it would take to air condition it for 3 events each year simply wouldn't be cost effective.

Or, you know, the school board sat back in a smokey room in the middle of the night rubbing their hands with glee and giggling maniacally at the thought of intentionally designing a building without AC just as an excuse to make a few atheists uncomfortable for an hour or two. I'm sure it's either one or the other.


A/C isn't supposed to be the only problem. But you already knew that
 
2013-05-12 09:04:33 PM  

wildsnowllama: When I went to high school in the late nineties the American history textbooks ended with Watergate.


That was the Liberal Mainstream MST Texbook authors revising (and stopping) history. They didn't want you to know about Jimmy Carter and the "Great Repressive American Peanut Endeavor" that hindered Reagan's "Never Underestimate The Savior" project.

/For cereal.
 
2013-05-12 09:13:27 PM  

Your Average Witty Fark User: Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.

This is my point exactly. It's "ok" if it's a church, but not if it's a Mosque. This is how all religious issues should be considered in this country. If it's ok for a Christian or a church, but not ok for a Muslim or a Mosque, then it isn't ok. Period.


Right. Because Muslims, being the inclusive lot that they are, are usually inclined to welcome the non-believers into their Holy places. Yeppers. Sally was kissing Jenny in the foot-washjng room? That's a stoning
 
2013-05-12 09:19:49 PM  
So, our public/secular infrastructure is crumbling and we're resorting to our religious institutions to fill the gap left by an increasingly inept and distant government?

Is this twenty-first century America, or fifth-century Gaul?
 
2013-05-12 09:20:38 PM  
This doesn't make sense.  IN one way, we haven an incorporated Constitution in regards to the 1st amendment, where towns and sates cannot declare official religions, suppress speech or censor media yet those same towns and states can have wildly different gun laws from place to place, citing that the Constitution is only a document which limits the federal government - (and states where it professedly does so)
 
2013-05-12 09:26:53 PM  

The Name: So, our public/secular infrastructure is crumbling and we're resorting to our religious institutions to fill the gap left by an increasingly inept and distant government?

Is this twenty-first century America, or fifth-century Gaul?


Actually you just summarized Scott Walker's education policies.
 
2013-05-12 09:37:46 PM  
if the  school pays the church to use the facility and if there are any christian symbols in view during the ceremony, then yes, I would say it violates the 1st amendment. I also find it hard to believe they can't find another place to hold it.
 
2013-05-12 09:54:26 PM  

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.


Imagine if they held it at the local mosque. Imagine the howls that would erupt.

The government's relationship with Christian churches should have the same standard.
 
2013-05-12 09:56:52 PM  
Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.
 
2013-05-12 10:10:42 PM  

Spanky_McFarksalot: if the  school pays the church to use the facility and if there are any christian symbols in view during the ceremony, then yes, I would say it violates the 1st amendment. I also find it hard to believe they can't find another place to hold it.


that might be where the fun begins
other places might charge, while the church might be "free"
the church and the church going parents might want to have the ceremony in the church, what better way to praise god and preach to the unwashed masses.
 
2013-05-12 10:21:40 PM  
Considering nearly every graduation ceremony in the country already has a prayer at the beginning... and a healthy percentage has pastors speak at them... somehow going to a church because your gymnasium is a piece of shiat doesn't really seem like it's going that much farther.
 
2013-05-12 10:24:22 PM  
benghazi

that's all I got.
 
2013-05-12 10:26:25 PM  

Krieghund: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

Imagine if they held it at the local mosque. Imagine the howls that would erupt.

The government's relationship with Christian churches should have the same standard.


It wouldn't change my opinion provided the space was donated and religious symbols were removed or covered for the ceremony.
 
2013-05-12 10:42:22 PM  

DarwiOdrade: It wouldn't change my opinion provided the space was donated and religious symbols were removed or covered for the ceremony.


I understand. But my point is that this isn't a religious people vs non religious people issue. It's a religious people vs other religious people issue.

Some otherwise reasonable people feel that it is sacrilegious to enter certain other faith's worship spaces.
 
2013-05-12 11:06:27 PM  
The stupid it burns.
 
2013-05-12 11:08:33 PM  
they can compromise and hold it in a mosque. since its not a religious thing the parents wouldn't mind right?
 
2013-05-12 11:09:46 PM  

sdd2000: maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.

In what way?


By saying it is a separation of church and state issue. No where in the constitution does it call for a separation of church and state. Did you even read the article? The court has said that they could not have a graduation ceremony in a church.
 
2013-05-12 11:14:20 PM  

Ken VeryBigLiar: Mrtraveler01: It's farking WI in springtime, how hot does it get up there?

It might be 85 and humid or 35 and windy, we're never sure.  It's more that you can't have that many people who, let's face it, aren't skinny in that amount of space.


Tonight, there is a frost warning.  Low of 32, high of like 50 tomorrow.  On tuesday, the high should be 82.

Also known as...

4/30/13 - 81 degrees
5/3/13 - 4 inches of snow
5/5/13 - 74 degrees
 
2013-05-12 11:18:32 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.


Do you speak for all two billion Christians?

There are people in America, lots of them, that boycott stores who say "happy holidays."  You bet your ass plenty of Christians would shiat a brick - f*ck, they'd shiat the Great Wall of China - if they heard graduation was going to be held at mosque.  How you feel isn't relevant.
 
2013-05-12 11:41:12 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.

Do you speak for all two billion Christians?

There are people in America, lots of them, that boycott stores who say "happy holidays."  You bet your ass plenty of Christians would shiat a brick - f*ck, they'd shiat the Great Wall of China - if they heard graduation was going to be held at mosque.  How you feel isn't relevant.


So my opinion doesn't count, but the imaginary Christians in your head do?  Ok there, Derpy McDerptard.
 
2013-05-12 11:56:19 PM  
Here's my question, for reals:

Are the parents/community in question the ones who complained FIRST, or did the "Americans United for Separation of Whosy Whatsis" come in and tell them this was offensive to them, and they should file a civil suit?

Because if some people of Jewish/Moslem/Christian/Wiccan/Cthulhian faiths were upset about having graduation in a church and wanted to do something about it, then fine; but if THEY were perfectly okay with it and the school and church were okay with covering up the crosses and boxing up the Bibles and hymnals for the duration of the ceremony--and some group of outsiders came in and said "No, wait! This is offensive and illegal! You should sue!" then it is not so fine at all.

This idea that "the law is the law and needs to be applied evenly everywhere for everyone" is really wrong and needs to be stopped. What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise--does not affect and need not affect anyone even in another town across the interstate; and would not if a few people would stiffen their sinews and recognize it.

I can hear some people already whining now: But if Town Y Across the Interstate were to be sued by some parents over the same issue, they would say "But Town X has been doing this and you let them--why can't we do it?" Well, the judge should have the balls to say, Because that is a different set of circumstances. Nobody was upset in Town X; but in Town Y, some people are not happy, and so we have to consider things here. What's good for the goose is NOT always good for the gander. Law should neither be a straitjacket nor a whip for some people to wield in the name of their own agendas, no matter how well intentioned (or not). Some things are not matters of personal safety or social welfare, and those areas are open for compromise--like where the high school graduation should be held.
 
2013-05-13 12:14:43 AM  
1) As others have mentioned, curtain over the cross.

2) They can't afford AC in Wisconsin or think of having graduation earlier in the day.    It not like graduation is in August in Arizona.
 
2013-05-13 12:26:36 AM  

Gyrfalcon: This idea that "the law is the law and needs to be applied evenly everywhere for everyone" is really wrong and needs to be stopped.


WTF?
 
2013-05-13 12:59:03 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Your Average Witty Fark User: Dear Jerk: Have they considered holding the graduation in a Mosque?

/the first effect of mixing religion and state is religious bigotry. You know damn well a Mosque would be a non-starter, even if they covered up all the false idols or whatever they worship.

This is my point exactly. It's "ok" if it's a church, but not if it's a Mosque. This is how all religious issues should be considered in this country. If it's ok for a Christian or a church, but not ok for a Muslim or a Mosque, then it isn't ok. Period.

Right. Because Muslims, being the inclusive lot that they are, are usually inclined to welcome the non-believers into their Holy places. Yeppers. Sally was kissing Jenny in the foot-washjng room? That's a stoning


If you're going to be inclusive of some religions and not others, then you're discriminatory. Period.
 
2013-05-13 01:02:51 AM  

common sense is an oxymoron: Gyrfalcon: This idea that "the law is the law and needs to be applied evenly everywhere for everyone" is really wrong and needs to be stopped.

WTF?


Sorry, I was in a hurry. I mean this idea that "Well, you let THEM do it, so that means we have to be able to do it too!" whatever "it" is, and regardless of whether the circusmtances are the same. It's the same thing that causes kids' lemonade stands to be shut down under the same business-licensing laws that shut down baseball park hot-dog stands "Because the laws have to apply evenly to everyone." As if a lemonade stand run by two 8-year olds for an afternoon was the same as some adult person selling hot-dogs every weekend at the park--was the same as a multi-million dollar concession at the major-league team's stadium.

But people have been using laws for cudgels lately and cranky old ladies using the same business laws to close down lemonade stands; and do-gooders in Wisconsin or wherever have been using church vs. state rulings (often with the best of intentions) to meddle in areas where until they got there, nobody was upset, on the theory that "the law needs to be the same everywhere". No, it really doesn't. The only place the law needs to be the same for everyone everywhere is in the courtroom, once it has been invoked. Prior to that, someone from outside coming along and saying "I think the law needs to be the same everywhere and so someone here should be as outraged as me," is the same as the cranky old lady invoking the business laws to shut down the kids on the corner. Yes, it is "legal"--but it may not be right.
 
2013-05-13 01:29:36 AM  
Churches rent school space all the time somehow they are able to get Jesus in and and out before the weak-minded can be overcome with fear that Government is establishing a religion.
 
2013-05-13 01:30:51 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:


I give you the Matthew Knight Arena. Not bad for the tiny town of Eugene, Oregon.

www.nwsportsbeat.com
 
2013-05-13 01:41:02 AM  
Meh. my high school graduation was outside 80+ degree heat in black caps and gowns.   th entire class felt like they would die of a stroke.
 
2013-05-13 01:41:18 AM  
The students and teachers were apparently fine with this event being held inside an Evangelical Church for a decade or so?

Fine, let them do that.

9 students and their parents feel strongly enough that the setting is too inappropriate or intimidating or evangelizing and should be moved?

Fine, move it. It's not like there aren't options here.

*makes self-satisfied triple hand dusting motion*

Next.
 
2013-05-13 01:48:20 AM  
I am way too late to this thread for anyone to even take notice but i have been a lurker on this site for so long that when ever an article is posted here about something i have first-hand knowledge of i am compelled to respond.

my mom brought me to Elmbrook Church from the time i was too young to remember till the time i was old enough to demand an alternative. i grew up there. it is one scary and very farked up place. not in a haunted house way. in a stepford wives way.

it is a mega-church, and pridefully so, in every sense of the word. my mom sought grief counseling and was manipulated and emotionally abused by the pastoral staff into believing that my dad left her because she didn't provide a warm and wholesome enough alternative to the fast and fun lifestyle he craved (drugs and sluts. dad loved 'em).

my brother was in the middle school fellowship program run by a "popular and charismatic" youth leader (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=19991030&id=hK caAAAAIBA J&sjid=Wy8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5584,1853698) who years later committed suicide by wrapping his head in plastic after he was found to have molested kids in his charge. as a quick google search will reveal, this was not the first or last time the youth fellowship program was corrupted by perverts.

i am not a fundie and never have been but my mom is and was, though even she wouldn't step foot in this church again.

i don't have only negative views of the place. there were plenty of other interesting kids i met who were similarly compelled to attend by their hoodwinked parents. the highlights of my spiritual upbringing include my first hit of pot, my first taste of 'tang, and a healthy cynicism of anything and everything "evangelical."

as a former taxpayer in the state of wisconsin, in no farking way would i support any money, taxpayer or otherwise, continuing to fund this cult. i can understand why people would want to rent the space. it's massive and pristine. it doesn't even have as much religious iconography as your run-of-the-mill Catholic church. but it is a blight on southeastern wisconsin and an embarrassment to any self-respecting spiritual person, Christian or otherwise.

use the farking gym, New Berlin. It might be uncomfortable in warm weather but you should be way more uncomfortable using this temple of false prophecy
 
2013-05-13 02:30:42 AM  

Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise


If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.
 
2013-05-13 04:13:28 AM  

Krieghund: Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise

If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.


Or maybe nobody was upset. That's the other alternative that nobody seems willing to accept as even a remote possibility, and it irks me that the idea that maybe everyone was okay with having their ceremony in the church is just too beyond the pale for outsiders to accept.
 
2013-05-13 04:57:11 AM  
My high school did it in an opposite, but equally unconstitutional way.  The graduation was held outside on our football field (despite a light rain the entire day).

But the day before, the school held an official prayer session, officiated by a Christian minister, inside our auditorium.  Our school was literally across the street from a church.

Since I was one of the veteran choir kids, my director/teacher tried to order me to come sing at the service on behalf of the school music department.  I very politely declined to aid her and the school's administration in violating the 1st Amendment, and we never spoke again.
 
2013-05-13 07:06:08 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Krieghund: Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise

If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.

Or maybe nobody was upset. That's the other alternative that nobody seems willing to accept as even a remote possibility, and it irks me that the idea that maybe everyone was okay with having their ceremony in the church is just too beyond the pale for outsiders to accept.


FTFA:  Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.

Courts don't just bring suits by themselves, you know.
 
2013-05-13 07:49:20 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Krieghund: Gyrfalcon: What people are doing in one town in Wisconsin--if they are all okay with it and nobody is unhappy with the compromise

If you live in a small town there can be serious consequences for going against the herd. Just because no one is speaking out about something doesn't mean that no one is upset. They might just not want to make waves. Or maybe the person that would be offended isn't even a member of the community yet.

This seems pretty cut and dried. They took the case to a judge, the judge said no. If the people unhappy with the graduation were out of bounds, the judge would have told them to deal with it.

Or maybe nobody was upset. That's the other alternative that nobody seems willing to accept as even a remote possibility, and it irks me that the idea that maybe everyone was okay with having their ceremony in the church is just too beyond the pale for outsiders to accept.


I concede that it is possible to blow something like this out of proportion.  But then you can blow a lot of things out of proportion.  There was a time (and not all that long ago) when people would have rolled their eyes when the subject of neighborhood integration was brought up.  So where do we draw the line on what is OK, and shouldn't be disturbed, so long as the locals don't complain?

Neighborhood segregation
School segregation
Sexual harassment
Police force taking bribes
Child abuse (and I don't even mean sexual, more like, violations of child labor laws)
Gangs extorting money from local businesses

(Yes, all of these are apples-to-oranges comparisons, but they all share one fairly important distinction with the story at hand, the possibility that laws are being broken.)

If all of the people in a community are silent on one of these subjects, does that mean everyone else should keep their noses out of it?  Because all of these things have been tolerated in the past, because "that's just the way it is."
 
2013-05-13 08:07:37 AM  

HotWingAgenda: My high school did it in an opposite, but equally unconstitutional way.  The graduation was held outside on our football field (despite a light rain the entire day).

But the day before, the school held an official prayer session, officiated by a Christian minister, inside our auditorium.  Our school was literally across the street from a church.

Since I was one of the veteran choir kids, my director/teacher tried to order me to come sing at the service on behalf of the school music department.  I very politely declined to aid her and the school's administration in violating the 1st Amendment, and we never spoke again.


One of the hardest parts about teaching vocal music is how historically it is linked to the church and for a significant span of time after the emergence of secular offerings it is viewed as being somewhere on par with a barroom rendition of "Louie Louie"

I had an excellent vocal teacher who was very aware of this.  It is only now that I appreciate the pins he had to walk on to use material that very likely would have ignited a backlash but was imperative that as performers and musicians we have under our belt.

So, if you're out there Mr. Weiss, thanks for doing an awesome job.
 
2013-05-13 08:14:05 AM  
There's a good chance the people bringing the complaint are another religion and not atheists.
Yeah I agree with them. Until they say it should be in their church instead
 
2013-05-13 08:16:34 AM  
I graduated in a church. The ceremony was going to be in the schools stadium, but the threat of rain pushed it indoors. The church was picked because it had the largest auditorium that was close by.
 
2013-05-13 08:35:46 AM  

remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility images of a man nailed to boards, human hearts with swords stuck through them, crowns full of blood dripping thorns, shepherds looking at sheep longingly, chalices of wine, etc. ..


Might as well have it in an abandoned haunted house.
 
2013-05-13 08:37:16 AM  
Dear Wisconsin High School,

 you should have sent your mice to Private Schools like good rich americans do.  they're doing well and enjoying the tax cuts that 'your' government gave them.  they can't thank you enough.  and as an added plus, their mice don't have to compete with your mice in school and after school.  that is, if their mice even work at all.

-your pals

-the Richest 2% who own 80% of this Nations wealth.

PS -- our churches enjoy not having to pay taxes too!
 
2013-05-13 08:50:25 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Are the parents/community in question the ones who complained FIRST, or did the "Americans United for Separation of Whosy Whatsis" come in and tell them this was offensive to them, and they should file a civil suit?


The way it usually works is someone in the community gets upset, contacts one of the AUSWW type of groups, and the AUSWW contacts the school with a letter explaining that they believe the schools conduct is a violation of the Constitution and have a potential plaintiff for the courts. Generally, secularists prefer to get an AUSWW as cover, because there tend to be a significant number of Christians who retaliate if the process starts with a non-anonymous complaint. (Peculiar, as I'm not able to find where "Snitches get stitches" is in the King James Bible.)

Gyrfalcon: Or maybe nobody was upset.


Not possible, here. A "stop that" legal nastygram could go out in the mail in theory, but in practice most AUSWW type of group won't act until they get someone local griping, because they only like to "bluff" with a straight flush. The next stage of initiating legal action -- which this has apparently reached, as this is being considered as an appeal from a lower federal court ruling -- is to file a court case, which requires someone with legal standing, and although it can be done anonymously such standing pretty much has to be local to be sufficiently impacted for the courts to consider there to be court-redressible injury.

Once you're talking about court rulings and appeals of court rulings, there's someone local who's pissed enough to have called in the national-grade hired gun.

GameSprocket: FTFA:  Nine students and parents, all unnamed, sued the school district, saying they felt uncomfortable and offended by having graduation in an evangelical church.


EG.

Kid the Universe: I am way too late to this thread for anyone to even take notice but i have been a lurker on this site for so long that when ever an article is posted here about something i have first-hand knowledge of i am compelled to respond.


There's some regulars who usually check back on what people are saying until the thread closes, and it's always nice to have some first hand reporting.
 
2013-05-13 09:23:21 AM  

Apos: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


THIS20.


It is not like we don't spend enough money: but the money for a new gym proably got diverted to a pay raise for the superintendent, highng a couselor just for LGBT students and a child care center for the spawn of students/unwed teen moms. Plus they had to pay an out of court settlements for a dodgeball injury and a stuendt who was suspended for having pastry that looked like a gun.



Switzerland and the U.S. spend the most,Switzerland and the United States are two of the countries with the highest teachers' salaries

US Education Spend vs rest of the World

spending, class sizes, teachers pay and statistics compared by country

static.guim.co.uk
 
2013-05-13 09:26:07 AM  

common sense is an oxymoron: Somacandra: Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue  Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.

[www.esplatter.com image 360x270]


That would be interesting as, realistically, the Hindu Temple of Wisconsin, is not that far away.

/Ike's football field isn't a bad place to have it either.
 
2013-05-13 09:42:45 AM  
Your Average Witty Fark User: If you're going to be inclusive of non-religious events and not religious events, then you're discriminatory. Period.

ftfy
 
2013-05-13 10:05:47 AM  
Atheists are delicate snowflakes and they will scream to their mommy if they see a cross. Waaaaa!
Crybabies. Get over it. You should be more upset at a baseball game...having to look at all those advertisements. No.as a consumer drone, that's OK.
 
2013-05-13 10:06:56 AM  
If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.
 
2013-05-13 11:01:05 AM  

TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.


It is settled law, and it has been... ** looks at username***

Never mind, carry on.

**plonk**
 
2013-05-13 11:06:02 AM  

maxalt: sdd2000: maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.

In what way?

By saying it is a separation of church and state issue. No where in the constitution does it call for a separation of church and state. Did you even read the article? The court has said that they could not have a graduation ceremony in a church.


No I think the court said
"towering over the graduation proceedings ... was a 15- to 20-foot-tall Latin cross, the preeminent symbol of Christianity."

The appeals court said that goes too far, turning a public school ceremony into an "endorsement" of a particular religion.


Is that like attempting to prohibit the building of a mosque (although not even really a mosque) near the site of the World Trade Center?


The easiest test for me would be if the fundies / derpers in an area would be as happy if the event was done in front of a Jewish Star or a Muslim Cresent or the invocation was done by an Imam.
 
2013-05-13 11:06:14 AM  

Proteios1: Atheists

Christians are delicate snowflakes and they will scream to their mommy daddy if they see can't have a cross at a government event. Waaaaa!

Or, alternately,

Proteios1: Atheists are delicate snowflakes

litigious secularists and they will scream to their mommy the court system if they see a cross any intrusion of sectarian religion into any aspect of the sphere of government functions.

Either way.

TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.


Except voters are adults, so the analogy neglects "the particular concerns that arise in the context of public elementary and secondary schools" which subjects religion in the schools to tighter scrutiny. See part II of the majority ruling in Edwards v Aguillard.

Also, I'm not sure either practice has yet been explicitly challenged for review by a federal court since Everson v Board of Education started the modern line of precedent on religion in the States.
 
2013-05-13 11:17:24 AM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.

It is settled law, and it has been... ** looks at username***

Never mind, carry on.

**plonk**


really you are going to plonk me for that. don't know if you can still read me but you are a farking whiny little child and have shiate for brains.
 
2013-05-13 11:18:47 AM  

abb3w: Proteios1: Atheists Christians are delicate snowflakes and they will scream to their mommy daddy if they see can't have a cross at a government event. Waaaaa!

Or, alternately,

Proteios1: Atheists are delicate snowflakes litigious secularists and they will scream to their mommy the court system if they see a cross any intrusion of sectarian religion into any aspect of the sphere of government functions.

Either way.

TrollingForColumbine: If I can vote in a church, they can graduate in a church. I don't like it but I think this is settled law.

Except voters are adults, so the analogy neglects "the particular concerns that arise in the context of public elementary and secondary schools" which subjects religion in the schools to tighter scrutiny. See part II of the majority ruling in Edwards v Aguillard.

Also, I'm not sure either practice has yet been explicitly challenged for review by a federal court since Everson v Board of Education started the modern line of precedent on religion in the States.


see that's a much better response that ctrl-alt-del. what a dick.
 
2013-05-13 11:47:33 AM  
s3.amazonaws.com

/from WI
//sad
///MN now and happy to be here.
 
2013-05-13 12:27:39 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Lionel Mandrake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Christians should "stop and think about how it would feel if their high school graduation ceremonies were held in a Jewish temple or Muslim mosque, where diplomas were handed out beneath a looming Star of David or Islamic crescent," said Ayesha Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represented the winning plaintiffs.

I did stop and think of how that would feel, and I quite honestly would feel nothing.  It's a farking building, complain when they start preaching to you.  If you're as sensitive to the presence of crosses and "holy ground" as some b-movie vampire, then nobody should take you seriously, and you quite honestly have failed at life.

Do you speak for all two billion Christians?

There are people in America, lots of them, that boycott stores who say "happy holidays."  You bet your ass plenty of Christians would shiat a brick - f*ck, they'd shiat the Great Wall of China - if they heard graduation was going to be held at mosque.  How you feel isn't relevant.

So my opinion doesn't count, but the imaginary Christians in your head do?  Ok there, Derpy McDerptard.


Are you part of the lawsuit?  Are you on the Supreme Court?
 
2013-05-13 12:41:43 PM  
I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the validictorian with 2 moms?
 
2013-05-13 01:18:59 PM  

SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the
validictorian with 2 moms?


I doubt that the church would actively bar them from attending.

Even if the church ignored these issues do you think those people would feel comfortable in a church that spends the other 364 days of the year telling them they are dirty sinners who will be eternally cast into fire and despair because of who they love?

Maybe this church isn't 'one of those' churches. Maybe they are friendly and inclusive. How would the conservative religious folks feel being in the building of a blasphemous church that allows the sinful and the depraved to join.

A better solution is to keep religion at arms length from publicly funded organizations that way nobody is disadvantaged.
 
2013-05-13 02:03:38 PM  

SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the validictorian with 2 moms?


If you want to go to graduation, you have to show up to a church.  While you are at the church, you will be ever so slightly exposed to church teachings.  In an ever so tiny way, that's public schools promoting a specific religion.  I think this one's mostly about the principle but the people suing are right.

For perspective, my Wisconsin High School gym was run down and had no air conditioning.  We stuffed the HS gym full of over 1,000 people and it got hot and sweaty as fark in there.  But we didn't have it at a local church.  Also, my HS was a private catholic HS.  So I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around the public school not stuffing the kids and their parents in the gym.  Or at least planning it for outside every year, weather permitting and otherwise in the gym.
 
2013-05-13 03:09:01 PM  

sdd2000: maxalt: sdd2000: maxalt: Darth_Lukecash: maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.

How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.

Well they are trying to prohibit it.

In what way?

By saying it is a separation of church and state issue. No where in the constitution does it call for a separation of church and state. Did you even read the article? The court has said that they could not have a graduation ceremony in a church.

No I think the court said
"towering over the graduation proceedings ... was a 15- to 20-foot-tall Latin cross, the preeminent symbol of Christianity."

The appeals court said that goes too far, turning a public school ceremony into an "endorsement" of a particular religion.


Is that like attempting to prohibit the building of a mosque (although not even really a mosque) near the site of the World Trade Center?


The easiest test for me would be if the fundies / derpers in an area would be as happy if the event was done in front of a Jewish Star or a Muslim Cresent or the invocation was done by an Imam.


READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it. Your comparing the World Trade Center is just plain BS, on many levels. Just one it is a private building. Now if you want a comparison try the mosque in the spot where Davids temple was built, who should own that property.
 
2013-05-13 03:26:32 PM  

Egoy3k: SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the
validictorian with 2 moms?

I doubt that the church would actively bar them from attending.

Even if the church ignored these issues do you think those people would feel comfortable in a church that spends the other 364 days of the year telling them they are dirty sinners who will be eternally cast into fire and despair because of who they love?

Maybe this church isn't 'one of those' churches. Maybe they are friendly and inclusive. How would the conservative religious folks feel being in the building of a blasphemous church that allows the sinful and the depraved to join.

A better solution is to keep religion at arms length from publicly funded organizations that way nobody is disadvantaged.


What the Flack does sex have to do with a graduation? If you are gay and want the world to know don't do it where people could be offended. It's like the gays walking around in San Francisco with big dildos strapped on, or that girl who handed out condoms partly dressed, your freedom stops where mine begins, and if I don't want to know your sexual preferences SHUT UP. If I don't want to see your teets or your sex organs keep them under your clothes, you have no right to talk about sex at a graduation period. Just as the church could not give a sermon prior to the graduation. Stop trying to make an impression by what you are and try to make an impression by what you can accomplish, sheesh you young people got screwed in your education.
 
2013-05-13 05:22:03 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Tumunga: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

You need to turn in your Libby Lib card. You know good and well, after the pro-choice section of the manual, any mention of church and school in the same story demands you be belligerently against it.

Son, I am intellectuallycrippled by stereotypes and unable to divorce my partisanship from the issues, just like the rest of my libby brethren.

 
2013-05-13 08:00:15 PM  

maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.


The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.
 
2013-05-13 09:04:06 PM  

timujin: maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.

The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.


Oh so then I guess you are against Obama Care, the income tax and all drug laws, because they were passed by a majority. In fact all laws were passed with some descention therefore no laws or rules apply to those who choose to disobey them. The interpretation of the laws banning religion was from a 1950's court that had 3 KKK members as "justices". Ben Franklin a person who knew a bit about the constitution said that the US would only work for people who believed in G*D, Actually he said "This country will only be sustained by a G*D fearing people". If you don't like religion don't practice just leave you tears at home.
 
2013-05-13 09:24:11 PM  

maxalt: timujin: maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.

The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.

Oh so then I guess you are against Obama Care, the income tax and all drug laws, because they were passed by a majority. In fact all laws were passed with some descention therefore no laws or rules apply to those who choose to disobey them. The interpretation of the laws banning religion was from a 1950's court that had 3 KKK members as "justices". Ben Franklin a person who knew a bit about the constitution said that the US would only work for people who believed in G*D, Actually he said "This country will only be sustained by a G*D fearing people". If you don't like religion don't practice just leave you tears at home.


You know how we can tell you may have flunked American History? I seem to remember from my education something about the 16th Amendment which, was passed by more than a simple majority.

Also I think Jefferson's  letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 might be in order here.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared thattheir legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free  exercisethereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional  performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious  exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

 I would think that Jefferson's thoughts on the meaning are more illustrative than yours.
 
2013-05-13 09:46:53 PM  
Well

sdd2000: maxalt: timujin: maxalt: READ THE CONSTITUTION it strictly prohibits the state in ANY religious affairs, not just the public one. I can see you were educated in the last 30 years. If the school was presented with a mosque that was air conditioned and the kids voted for having their graduation there then so be it.

The 1st Amendment doesn't get ignored by a majority vote.  Even if 99/100 kids think it's okay, forcing even one kid to make the choice between entering a temple and not going to graduation is not only wrong, it's against the Constitution.  That's why the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the way it did.  If this actually goes before the SC, they'll say the same thing.

Oh so then I guess you are against Obama Care, the income tax and all drug laws, because they were passed by a majority. In fact all laws were passed with some descention therefore no laws or rules apply to those who choose to disobey them. The interpretation of the laws banning religion was from a 1950's court that had 3 KKK members as "justices". Ben Franklin a person who knew a bit about the constitution said that the US would only work for people who believed in G*D, Actually he said "This country will only be sustained by a G*D fearing people". If you don't like religion don't practice just leave you tears at home.

You know how we can tell you may have flunked American History? I seem to remember from my education something about the 16th Amendment which, was passed by more than a simple majority.

Also I think Jefferson's  letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 might be in order here.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more ...


 Jefferson also wrote a bible, cutting out all of the "unimportant parts". He had said many time that he was unsure of a great creator. Again the constitution NEVER has the words separation of church quite to the contrary, the constitution says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. What part of NO LAWS, don't you understand? The Supreme Courts job is interpretation, not making law. They exceeded that with the rule against religious text or buildings. Congress never even mentioned separation of church and state. I guess FDR was wrong with his stated belief that with G*D on our side we will beat the forces of evil in WW2. Obvious you need to study more reread what you quoted Jefferson. Building a wall between church and state, is just a rehash of the 1st amendment.
 
2013-05-13 10:05:32 PM  

maxalt: Oh so then I guess you are against Obama Care, the income tax and all drug laws, because they were passed by a majority.


and do any of those violate the Constitution?  Damn, man, you're right on the edge of Poe's Law, I just can't tell anymore.
 
Ook
2013-05-13 10:15:46 PM  

maxalt: Egoy3k: SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the
validictorian with 2 moms?

I doubt that the church would actively bar them from attending.

Even if the church ignored these issues do you think those people would feel comfortable in a church that spends the other 364 days of the year telling them they are dirty sinners who will be eternally cast into fire and despair because of who they love?

Maybe this church isn't 'one of those' churches. Maybe they are friendly and inclusive. How would the conservative religious folks feel being in the building of a blasphemous church that allows the sinful and the depraved to join.

A better solution is to keep religion at arms length from publicly funded organizations that way nobody is disadvantaged.

What the Flack does sex have to do with a graduation? If you are gay and want the world to know don't do it where people could be offended. It's like the gays walking around in San Francisco with big dildos strapped on, or that girl who handed out condoms partly dressed, your freedom stops where mine begins, and if I don't want to know your sexual preferences SHUT UP. If I don't want to see your teets or your sex organs keep them under your clothes, you have no right to talk about sex at a graduation period. Just as the church could not give a sermon prior to the graduation. Stop trying to make an impression by what you are and try to make an impression by what you can accomplish, sheesh you young people got screwed in your education.


I won't force you to go to a pride parade to get your diploma if you don't force me to go to a church to get mine. Deal?
 
2013-05-14 12:05:39 AM  

Ook: maxalt: Egoy3k: SisterMaryElephant: I don't see the problem here unless the church won't let teh gays graduate.  How soon before their rights are being violated by allwoing teh gay in teh jesus gym?  In my high school, 2 girls were about ready to pop at graduation - is the church gonna let these sluts in?  and what about the
validictorian with 2 moms?

I doubt that the church would actively bar them from attending.

Even if the church ignored these issues do you think those people would feel comfortable in a church that spends the other 364 days of the year telling them they are dirty sinners who will be eternally cast into fire and despair because of who they love?

Maybe this church isn't 'one of those' churches. Maybe they are friendly and inclusive. How would the conservative religious folks feel being in the building of a blasphemous church that allows the sinful and the depraved to join.

A better solution is to keep religion at arms length from publicly funded organizations that way nobody is disadvantaged.

What the Flack does sex have to do with a graduation? If you are gay and want the world to know don't do it where people could be offended. It's like the gays walking around in San Francisco with big dildos strapped on, or that girl who handed out condoms partly dressed, your freedom stops where mine begins, and if I don't want to know your sexual preferences SHUT UP. If I don't want to see your teets or your sex organs keep them under your clothes, you have no right to talk about sex at a graduation period. Just as the church could not give a sermon prior to the graduation. Stop trying to make an impression by what you are and try to make an impression by what you can accomplish, sheesh you young people got screwed in your education.

I won't force you to go to a pride parade to get your diploma if you don't force me to go to a church to get mine. Deal?


you bore me
 
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