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(Chicago Trib)   Wisconsin High School: "our gym is run down and doesn't have air conditioning, let's have graduation at a local church." Supreme Court: "Not so fast, Fuzzy Lumpkins"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 203
    More: Interesting, supreme courts, Wisconsin, local churches, air conditionings, 1st amendment, Muslim Mosque, graduation, establishment of religion  
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3134 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 May 2013 at 3:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-12 01:30:55 PM
I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.
 
2013-05-12 01:35:46 PM
photos1.blogger.com

doesn't appreciate being dragged into murky legal disputes.
 
2013-05-12 01:45:57 PM
"Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"
 
2013-05-12 01:57:36 PM
Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.
 
2013-05-12 02:00:49 PM

Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"


To be fair, in many school districts, asking for funds to upgrade an athletic facility while the textbooks are a decade out of date wouldn't play to well.  Heck, there are division 1 colleges with gyms that wouldn't pass muster for a graduation ceremony:

w3.campusexplorer.com
 
2013-05-12 02:01:14 PM
Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.
 
2013-05-12 02:06:09 PM
So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it
 
2013-05-12 02:07:46 PM
My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.
 
2013-05-12 02:25:14 PM

CruiserTwelve: My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.


The courts don't really have too much of a beef with bible thumping at private schools. It's when all the Jesus pageantry is happening at a public school (paid for by taxpayer dollars) that makes the courts go full activist.

Likewise for groups like the ACLU, FRFF, etc. You can violate Matthew 6:5-6 to your heart's content and they won't even bat an eyelid at you, just so long as you don't spend so much as one penny in public funds to do so.
 
2013-05-12 02:26:01 PM
School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.
 
2013-05-12 02:36:44 PM

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.
 
2013-05-12 02:37:26 PM
I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?
 
2013-05-12 02:39:57 PM

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?



THIS20.
 
2013-05-12 02:41:37 PM

DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?


Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?
 
2013-05-12 02:44:00 PM

ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?


A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.
 
2013-05-12 02:46:21 PM
This will be extra convenient if a last-minute wedding is needed after the math teacher impregnates the Salutatorian
 
2013-05-12 02:46:57 PM

Uranus Megahertz: Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.


Giving tax payer money directly to the chuch.  Yeah, that's legal.
 
2013-05-12 02:48:46 PM
FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.

i.imgur.com

Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.
 
2013-05-12 02:50:10 PM

DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.


That is certainly true, although churches (usually liberal Protestant ones) that host organizational meetings (like AA or other ones) do them is classrooms or basements--not in the altar/worship space.
 
2013-05-12 02:51:46 PM
My HS graduation was at the local college basketball arena every year. Air-conditioned but still pretty warm.

/csb
 
2013-05-12 03:05:46 PM

Britney Spear's Speculum: Uranus Megahertz: Rent the church gym, keep the religion out of it. Sure I'm fine with it.

Giving tax payer money directly to the chuch.  Yeah, that's legal.


For purely secular purposes, it probably would be so long as the rental price was reasonable.
 
2013-05-12 03:08:16 PM

Peter von Nostrand: So it's in good enough shape to educate kids but not enough for a ceremony. Ok, got it


THIS

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


THIS

Saborlas: "Hey, lets make sure our gym is never suitable for graduation ceremonies! Then we can have them in a church, so we can put the unbelievers in their place!"


THIS

CruiserTwelve: My high school graduation was held in a Catholic church with Jesus prayers and a Catholic priest officiating, and nobody complained about it.

/maybe because it was a Catholic high school.


THIS!

Nabb1: The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May,


THIS

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


Because the money which should be spent on schools is being spent on churches.
Public or private, people determine where assets are allocated. They are choosing to spend money on magic sky potatoes, rather than education.
(Couldn't they have upgraded their school gym and rented the gym out to the church on the weekend? LOLOLOL)

So now for a couple of quick questions which were NOT addressed in the article:
1) how much is the school paying to rent the church?
2) if they are renting the space, then public money is being given to a private church and I have HUGE problems with this on many levels.
3) free or for a fee, do they make the space available to other groups for the same cost? why not?

shudder
It would be awesome if SCOTUS came down 9-0 against this and used one and all of the arguments presented here.
1) farkem, do it outside or in the stuffy gym like everyone used to do
2) you WANT CHURCH in your education, do like you are supposed to do, private religious schools.

HOW FARKING HARD IS THIS???

Do you notice that this is almost always protestants breaking this law and not Catholics?
Farking cheap stealing bastards.

/the final joke on those assholes would be establishing Roman Catholic as the one true faith of America!!!!!
 
2013-05-12 03:09:05 PM
I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.
 
2013-05-12 03:10:29 PM

Somacandra: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

That is certainly true, although churches (usually liberal Protestant ones) that host organizational meetings (like AA or other ones) do them is classrooms or basements--not in the altar/worship space.


THIS

and my guess is that few people would have a problem with this.
but in the end, farkem. bunch of whiney little biatches. too hot, might rain, blah blah blah blah
welcome to the real world

/why havent these people built religious private schools so they can have religious education for their children? why do they keep stealing from everyone else?
 
2013-05-12 03:14:27 PM

maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.


It seemed rather clear.
No state religion.
You can be any religion that you want.
You can pray to any god you want.
Or no god at all.

If you are confused about what that means look up religious persecution and read about the Taliban, Saud Arabia, China, USSR, recent Coptic Church attacks, or any number of cases in recent history where people died because they refused to follow the state LAWS on religion.

or, even simpler
travel to saud arabia
stand in the street on a busy day and proclaim that islam is false religion, that mohammed is a false profit and that JESUS IS GOD.
write back to us with pics
we will wait here where it is safe
 
2013-05-12 03:16:56 PM

remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.

Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.


i159.photobucket.com

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

 
2013-05-12 03:19:44 PM

maxalt: I still wonder what 1st amendment was supposed to mean..  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No law means leave the people alone, but the Supreme court cried in their collective beers because people were worshiping G*D and not the state.




How can you type the words, yet not understand? The state cannot be seen to promote any faith. Nor can it prohibit it either.
 
2013-05-12 03:21:02 PM

Lionel Mandrake: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.


They might, sure, but I guess you wouldn't know what a particular church would do unless you asked.
 
2013-05-12 03:23:47 PM

Nabb1: Lionel Mandrake: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

They might, sure, but I guess you wouldn't know what a particular church would do unless you asked.


The church might not have a problem, but FOX news would be swarming around like flies on shiat.  Hannity would probably broadcast from the church.  I don't even want to think about where Beck would go with this.
 
2013-05-12 03:28:33 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Nabb1: Lionel Mandrake: remus: I'm left wondering if they could have just hung some curtains up to conceal the church symbols.  I've seen events held at various locations where they used a lot of fabrics to cover up the walls, etc. and hide the underlying facility.Well, evangelicals have no problem covering up offensive images, like naked women.  They'll even use taxpayer money to do it, lest the Attorney General inadvertently lust after a 20' tall aluminum strumpet.

But I have a feeling that doing that to a cross would be a War on Christianity™ or religious persecution or something.

They might, sure, but I guess you wouldn't know what a particular church would do unless you asked.

The church might not have a problem, but FOX news would be swarming around like flies on shiat.  Hannity would probably broadcast from the church.  I don't even want to think about where Beck would go with this.


If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.
 
2013-05-12 03:40:28 PM

Nabb1: If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.


Right.  It's easier to believe that covering up the cross was suggested and rejected than to believe no one ever thought of it.
 
2013-05-12 03:48:43 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Nabb1: If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.

Right.  It's easier to believe that covering up the cross was suggested and rejected than to believe no one ever thought of it.


It could have been that way, or that could have been offered and rejected by the plaintiffs as insufficient. The article doesn't say either way.
 
2013-05-12 03:56:16 PM
So say I don't belong to that church and don't want to be forced to go there for graduation. Now what? Have I not earned my opportunity to clomp across the stage? Has graduation became a privilege to be granted based on other criteria?
 
2013-05-12 03:59:31 PM

cman: School should have known better although I really doubt their intentions were to force people into praising Jesus.


They were going to take a page out of Carrie, and trick some Muslim kid onstage and dump a big bucket of holy water on them, while a priest ran up and baptized them.
 
2013-05-12 03:59:56 PM

Nabb1: Lionel Mandrake: Nabb1: If the church and the school agreed I can't imagine why it would make the news, but then there is no shortage of hypersensitive ninnies out there who have to complain about everything.

Right.  It's easier to believe that covering up the cross was suggested and rejected than to believe no one ever thought of it.

It could have been that way, or that could have been offered and rejected by the plaintiffs as insufficient. The article doesn't say either way.


I wasn't specifying sides one way or the other.  There's no shortage of douchebags on these issues, even if they're on "my" side.
 
2013-05-12 04:00:02 PM

Somacandra: FTFA: They said holding school events in church buildings is common around the country, and they argue that the mere presence of religious symbols does not "establish" an official religion.

[i.imgur.com image 492x348]

Like a source in TFA said, the Becket people would totally lose their shiat if it was held in a mosque, a temple, a gurdwara or synagogue Try rotating the religious buildings used and see if everyone is really cool with it. Its greater Milwaukee--so there are plenty of other options. Not to mention a local park or civil auditorium.


Not to mention it's Elmbrook, you get top flight HVAC people out there like a shot just by passing the hat at a PTA meeting,
 
2013-05-12 04:02:18 PM
DarwiOdrade:On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Because we cant disenfranchise the job creators and unfortunately it seems like we do unless we loan them the money for their education. Then it is valued VERY highly at 3.75% interest
 
2013-05-12 04:03:11 PM

Somacandra: DarwiOdrade: I'm a libby lib and I think this is dumb. Churches host other organizations all the time - even non-religious or non-denominational organizations. Using the building should not be construed as endorsing that particular religion or even religion in general.

That is certainly true, although churches (usually liberal Protestant ones) that host organizational meetings (like AA or other ones) do them is classrooms or basements--not in the altar/worship space.


There's an United Church of Christ church here in Seattle that hosts daily Catholic Masses and Muslim services.
 
2013-05-12 04:03:29 PM

Nabb1: TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.

The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.


Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed doesn't bother you a bit but a little heat makes you go all wilty?  I stopped believing much of anything you said years ago, but I'm inclined to believe you on this one
 
2013-05-12 04:03:32 PM

Bane of Broone: DarwiOdrade:On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Because we cant disenfranchise the job creators and unfortunately it seems like we do unless we loan them the money for their education. Then it is valued VERY highly at 3.75% interest


Gah, I meant it was unfortunate that we value education so little. Please don't think I believe taxes on the wealthy would be unfortunate, lol.
 
2013-05-12 04:04:08 PM
As somebody who could not care less about going to a graduation ceremony (skipped 3 so far) it's a bit hard for me to care about this much...
 
2013-05-12 04:06:36 PM

DarwiOdrade: ecmoRandomNumbers: DarwiOdrade: On the other hand, why can't we have nicer schools? Do we value our children and their education so little?

Is this rhetorical, or an actual question?

A little of both - if you have a good answer I'd like to hear it.


The fact the state of WI took a hatchet to the education budget probably didn't help fix the gym that is falling apart.
 
2013-05-12 04:07:09 PM
My friend's son graduated from high school last year, and the ceremony was held at a church.  When I asked why, he replied, "Welcome to Georgia!"
 
2013-05-12 04:07:15 PM

TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.


Likewise, many non-Christians (even athiests and satanists) have set foot inside a church or cathedral for secular purposes without bursting into flames at the sight of a religious symbol.
 
2013-05-12 04:07:33 PM
Having a state school hold a ceremony in a Church is not the same exact thing as the Congress establishing a religion.
 
2013-05-12 04:08:00 PM
Mail the diplomas home and fark the hoopla.  Nobody goes through 12 years of schooling dreaming about that "Big Day."
 
2013-05-12 04:09:19 PM

TwoHead: Nabb1: TwoHead: Many many years ago, when the earth was still cooling and the moons orbit had yet to stabilize, I graduated from a Wisconsin HS that had no AC in the gymnasium.  Despite stifling heat and humidity up on the stage and the beers we drank in the park before the ceremony, we somehow survived the event.

Maybe these folks should stop being such wusses.

The traditional graduation ceremony where I went to college is outdoors in the sweltering heat of May, and they use one of the auditoriums on campus to show the ceremony via closed circuit television for the elderly or people with health problems who might not tolerate the heat as well as you tough folks. I've sat through non-religious functions and churches where I dd not their particular faith and it did me no harm, because in some of the small towns I lived in when I was young, churches were often the only places that could accommodate a large gathering of people. I guess my sensibilities aren't so delicate as to let things like that bother me.

Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed doesn't bother you a bit but a little heat makes you go all wilty?  I stopped believing much of anything you said years ago, but I'm inclined to believe you on this one


You're reading comprehension could use some polishing. I was outside in the ceremony, but my grandmother was in the auditorium. And this may or may not have been too much of an endorsement, but I don't think the mere fact that the ceremony itself was in a church is sufficient. Churches are often used as polling places in elections in some places, usually without incident. But as long as the ceremony is completely secular, I'd be okay with it. If they include prayers, that would be problematic.
 
2013-05-12 04:10:04 PM

TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed


What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.
 
2013-05-12 04:11:58 PM
Here's an idea - tax churches to pay for school improvements. It's completely ridiculous that property and other wealth is sheltered simply by labeling it for religious use.
 
2013-05-12 04:12:19 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: TwoHead: Let me get this straight...you are so tough that freedom loving Americans having their rights infringed

What right is being infringed?

There is a right of freedom of religion, there is no right of freedom from seeing a religious symbol.


He's afraid if he sees a cross, he'll suddenly love Jesus, I guess.
 
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