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(Phys Org2)   "Sitting around for eight hours waiting for your (Nissan) Leaf to charge up is not exactly a selling point. EVs have a sitting-on-your-ass factor that conventional cars do not"   (phys.org) divider line 58
    More: Fail, conventional car, J.D. Power, Center for Automotive Research, Rebecca Lindland, Fisker Automotive, plug-in electric car, Sergio Marchionne, government-backed loan  
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3193 clicks; posted to Business » on 12 May 2013 at 10:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-05-12 09:24:53 AM
5 votes:
<i>Lindland said her view that Americans "just don't see how an electric car can fit into their lifestyle. We continue to be risk-averse in investing in <a data-cke-saved-href="http://phys.org/tags/new+technology/" rel="tag" class="textTag">new technology in our cars." </i>

Let's see. Infrastructure isn't in place, nearest dealer to me is over 500 miles away, significantly higher cost than a standard internal combustion, lower range, no mechanics, proprietary designs with no access to blueprints or designs... oh and an 8 hour charge!

News flash! HALF of America doesn't live in urbania. If you want this, put real money into battery technology.
2013-05-12 10:48:53 AM
4 votes:
Everytime I hear some car 'expert' complain about the charge times for electrics I have to wonder if it isn't being written at Exxon HQ. It's just a BS argument and everyone should know better.

The sweet spot for electric cars is the daily commuter. The Tesla model s has a 300 mile range. That is enough for the longest daily commute most could imagine with power to spare. Plug it in when you get home and its fully charged in the morning. Most families have more than one car as well. So you have a car that runs on gas for the long trips. Or rent one.

In my case I work from home. So I get to keep my gas guzzling mid life crisis car. But the wife has an 80 mile plus commute everyday. We are seriously considering electric for her next daily commuter. If it's something that has a 300 mile range she is good to go every single day. That still leaves us with in range of the beach and mountains. As long as I have electricity on the other side I am good. In fact the only trip we do that would probably not work is the 500 mile trip we take once in a while to see her parents.

In short, no I will not be sitting around watching the car charge. It would have a full charge everytime I leave the driveway. If my destination is not in range I'm taking the hotrod.
2013-05-12 11:12:27 AM
3 votes:

sammyk: Everytime I hear some car 'expert' complain about the charge times for electrics I have to wonder if it isn't being written at Exxon HQ. It's just a BS argument and everyone should know better.

The sweet spot for electric cars is the daily commuter. The Tesla model s has a 300 mile range. That is enough for the longest daily commute most could imagine with power to spare. Plug it in when you get home and its fully charged in the morning. Most families have more than one car as well. So you have a car that runs on gas for the long trips. Or rent one.

In my case I work from home. So I get to keep my gas guzzling mid life crisis car. But the wife has an 80 mile plus commute everyday. We are seriously considering electric for her next daily commuter. If it's something that has a 300 mile range she is good to go every single day. That still leaves us with in range of the beach and mountains. As long as I have electricity on the other side I am good. In fact the only trip we do that would probably not work is the 500 mile trip we take once in a while to see her parents.

In short, no I will not be sitting around watching the car charge. It would have a full charge everytime I leave the driveway. If my destination is not in range I'm taking the hotrod.


It is a BS argument:  my daily commute is about 30 miles combined.  That's a tenth of the Tesla's charge right there.  And if I'm heading out somewhere, I'm not topping 200 miles for that.  I would be a prime candidate for this if I wasn't moving closer to work in the next year or so.

Having electric cars would cut our oil intake significantly.  Big Oil is just freaking because now it's a distinct possibility.
2013-05-12 10:11:06 AM
3 votes:
The technology exists for a specific subset of people. If you don't fit in that subset, don't buy the car.
2013-05-12 08:53:09 PM
2 votes:

Great Janitor: Now, if you lived in a city like Chicago or New York and really wanted a car over the mass transit the city provides, then the Leaf would be a decent option


You'd have to have better charging infrastructure available. A lot of people don't have garages or dedicated parking spaces so charging your car would be a challenge when you have to park down the block.
2013-05-12 06:51:02 PM
2 votes:

Shaggy_C: Batteries become less efficient with each charging cycle. Your 300 mile charge will be a 50 mile charge by year 5. Resale market for electrics cars will suck - hopefully the companies have recycling plans in place.


These are not lead acid or nickel metal hydride batteries.  The batteries they are currently putting in electric vehicles are good for 2000-3000 cycles.  I assume that you are not very good at math, but for a car with a 100 mile range like the leaf, you are good for 200,000 to 300,000 miles. For the Tesla with its 250 mile range, you are good for 500,000 to 750,000 miles.  In other words, you could not possibly be more wrong.
2013-05-12 06:28:00 PM
2 votes:
I know I personally cannot leave my house if the gas tank isn't topped off. And I stop to add gas at every gas station I go to. And I drive 300 miles a day, every day.

Just like everyone else.
2013-05-12 05:10:58 PM
2 votes:

Electrify: Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!


It is actually unusual to commute farther than 30 miles one way here too. But it makes a good talking point against EVs so people like to pretend that it is a widespread practice that EVs must somehow address before anyone will buy them.
2013-05-12 02:24:37 PM
2 votes:

Lost Thought 00: Stop trying to use the government to force your ideology on everyone else


Then stop purchasing fuel on the public marketplace and expelling exhaust into the open atmosphere.  When you brew your own fuel from your land's own feedstock and suck your own fumes, then you can biatch about society trying to restrict you.
2013-05-12 01:33:48 PM
2 votes:
The blackout argument ignores the fact that electrics and hybrids can also be set up to serve as home back-up generators/ storage cells to keep the fridge cold a few days, and enough juice for some lights and a TV or computer.
2013-05-12 12:09:34 PM
2 votes:
I tried to get into a Smart. I almost broke the steering wheel when I closed the door and wedged my knee.

I can only imagine what the other "efficient" cars are like. I am a titan, and not a Nissan titan. I am too large for your world.
2013-05-12 11:45:14 AM
2 votes:

dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.


The Nissan Leaf battery pack weighs 660lbs.  The Tesla S would likely run about 150lbs more than that based on the type of batteries they use.  You're not going to be swapping them out without a forklift and other heavy equipment.
2013-05-12 11:38:15 AM
2 votes:
Eight hours from the comfort of my own home when I'm not planning to leave anyway, versus having to go out of my way to drive to a gas station?  I'll take the eight hours.

This is like complaining about a phone with a rechargeable battery, instead of just buying disposable batteries and burning through them at your "convenience".
2013-05-12 11:36:42 AM
2 votes:
All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.
2013-05-12 11:25:45 AM
2 votes:

sammyk: born_yesterday: sammyk: The sweet spot for electric cars is the daily commuter. The Tesla model s has a 300 mile range. That is enough for the longest daily commute most could imagine with power to spare. Plug it in when you get home and its fully charged in the morning. Most families have more than one car as well. So you have a car that runs on gas for the long trips. Or rent one.

While I fully support the development of this technology, I would hate to find myself with a car low on charge and in the middle of an emergency that shuts down the power grid (especially for an extended period).

You really think our power system is so unreliable that you would have an issue like that? Something like an ice storm or hurricane would give you advance warning. You would have time to make sure its fully charged.


You weren't affected by the blackout of 2003 I guess.  No warning, the lights just went off and stayed off for several days (depending on where you lived).  Gas cars didn't fare any better though when the power to pumps went out.

That being said, it's easy enough to put solar panels up to charge up an EV if you're worried about the inevitable zombie apocalypse.  It's pretty hard to set up a oil well and refinery in your backyard without the neighbours complaining.
2013-05-12 11:12:48 AM
2 votes:

born_yesterday: sammyk: The sweet spot for electric cars is the daily commuter. The Tesla model s has a 300 mile range. That is enough for the longest daily commute most could imagine with power to spare. Plug it in when you get home and its fully charged in the morning. Most families have more than one car as well. So you have a car that runs on gas for the long trips. Or rent one.

While I fully support the development of this technology, I would hate to find myself with a car low on charge and in the middle of an emergency that shuts down the power grid (especially for an extended period).


In the blackout of 2003 the power outage shut down gas stations (around here anyway), so either way, you'd be screwed.  I know one guy that had to run his brand new Honda Civic on fuel injector cleaner to limp home.
2013-05-12 11:12:48 AM
2 votes:
Pure electric is pretty awesome, right up until someone figures out how to compress hydrogen/gets a methanol fuel cell working/etc in an economical fashion.   After which the hydrogen fuel cell will pretty much destroy both gas and electric.  DMFCs are already starting to take off in some areas like forklifts.

The battery will always be a limiting factor in that you need to sit on your ass, swap batteries, or supercharge.  You can mitigate the pain in the ass with technology, but it still remains.  That said there are many electric cars on the road that mitigate those factors through a supercharger or having a backup gasoline engine, etc.

The big problem electric cars face is no one has really been able to get a mass market electric car out the door.  You either pay a premium with the MSRP for a long range vehicle or you pay a premium in your time due to limited range and recharge needs.  Which is fine, but it limits the electric vehicle to being a vehicle sought after by people whose values align with the product, just like how performance nuts only buy Corvettes, Mustangs, Challengers, etc.  The big question of course is will we see such a car or will fuel cells mature first.
2013-05-13 01:12:30 PM
1 votes:
Just to put a perspective on the whole "Electric cars are slightly inconvenient" spin:

Please try to remember what gasoline cars used to be like.  When they were first built, they were a rich-man's toy.  The cost to purchase, keep, and maintain an automobile was easily hundreds of times the cost of stabling a good horse.  The infrastructure was terrible, both in terms of roads and fuel.  More importantly, they were mechanically unreliable, finicky, and dangerous.  People used to be KILLED trying to crank-start an automobile (the designer at Cadillac who pioneered the electric-starter did so after a friend died as a result of chest injuries from a crank-start incident).

Combustion automobiles, even after they became ubiquitous and (relatively) inexpensive were still plagued by many reliability issues and required vastly more skill to operate than the modern auto.  Ever tried to drive a '31 Model A?  Non-synchro-transmission, manual choke, manual MIXTURE control for the carburetor, manual timing advance for the ignition.  Just getting it started requires multiple adjustments, let alone keeping it running during changing seasons and atmospheric conditions.

So, for those of you complaining that a car that spends upwards of 20 hours a day parked might have to spend eight of those hours parked next to an outlet, that's a damn silly thing to you to tell OTHER people not to do.  If it isn't right for you, fine.  For those who want to be on the upward side of the slope in terms of adopting new technology, I say: MORE POWER (heh) TO YOU!
2013-05-13 11:50:17 AM
1 votes:
To all the anti-electric car people who aren't shills for major petroleum corporation I ask you this:
My wife and I have two vehicles: the small car I drive and a minivan with an almost 500 mile range on a tank of gas.
-We both dive under 6 miles to work.
-The minivan is used for errands, trips to the parents and vacations.
-The small car probably hasn't been more than 15 miles from home in almost a decade.

If I want to replace the small car with an all-electric Leaf: what's the problem?
2013-05-13 01:02:16 AM
1 votes:

anfrind: Do the needful: Lot of talk about pure EV running out of electricity or having to sit around and wait for a charge. So why isn't the Volt more popular? Run till the batteries are dead and then switch over to gas to get you home. Is it the price?

Not so much the price as what you get for the price.  The Volt looks and feels pretty much like a run-of-the-mill Chevrolet vehicle, but the price point is higher than most Buicks, and the fuel efficiency isn't nearly as good as a Prius (therefore it's only a "green" vehicle if you rarely travel more than 35 miles).  The Model S is far more expensive, but it compares quite favorably to luxury cars in the same price range (Mercedes et al).


And that's where I am still confused. I get having creature comforts, but if you are truly in this to save either money, gas, or the environment (whichever you prefer) then wouldn't things like whale penis leather be less of a deciding factor? From what I have read, the Corvette has "run of the mill chevy interior" and you still have people shelling out big bucks for the muscle, not ergonomic ac vents.

It seems to quell the whole issue that it seems the majority of people who want to have an electric car but don't want to be stuck somewhere waiting for a charge have. The batteries run out, you let the gas take over and get you home or to work and charge back up. Maybe it's the weak 35 miles bit.

It's going to be a long time before I am shelling out money for a new anything so I can't even imagine what my next vehicle will be.
2013-05-13 12:32:36 AM
1 votes:

rynthetyn: Once I graduate and get a real job where I can't get away with commuting by scooter any more, I guess I'm going to have to give in and buy another car.


Don't give up on your scooter just yet.  I had to relocate after graduation (my new job was nearly 100 miles from where I lived at the time), and I managed to find a decent, reasonably-priced apartment just two miles from work--trivial biking distance.

HotWingAgenda: If someone can develop a power cell that I can carry into my apartment and charge overnight, or carry into the office and charge at my desk, I'll be first in line to buy an EV.


Given that the battery arrays on electric cars typically weigh a minimum of 600 pounds, you'll be waiting a long time for that to happen.

Do the needful: Lot of talk about pure EV running out of electricity or having to sit around and wait for a charge. So why isn't the Volt more popular? Run till the batteries are dead and then switch over to gas to get you home. Is it the price?


Not so much the price as what you get for the price.  The Volt looks and feels pretty much like a run-of-the-mill Chevrolet vehicle, but the price point is higher than most Buicks, and the fuel efficiency isn't nearly as good as a Prius (therefore it's only a "green" vehicle if you rarely travel more than 35 miles).  The Model S is far more expensive, but it compares quite favorably to luxury cars in the same price range (Mercedes et al).
2013-05-13 12:08:54 AM
1 votes:

ghare: Electrify: Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!

Because rent is cheap out there, and their time is totally worthless, and their only car maintenance expense is gas.

/In other words, they can't do math.


yeah, i have a friend who moved over forty-five minutes away because of better schools. Keep in mind better is a difference between very good and great, not like some inner city hellhole or anything. He has to take home call, on occasion, but one of the stipulations is that you have to be thirty mins from the hospital to take the call from home. The result is that he actually has to stay overnight in the hospital.

I asked him if he ever though about how their kids would do in school if he got home 45 minutes earlier to help them with their homework or if he didnt spend so much time at the hospital he could otherwise spend at home. He had no answer, really, but I could tell he had never though about it.
2013-05-12 11:52:05 PM
1 votes:
Lot of talk about pure EV running out of electricity or having to sit around and wait for a charge. So why isn't the Volt more popular? Run till the batteries are dead and then switch over to gas to get you home. Is it the price?

Saw a Tesla today in Austin. I was heading up 183 doing about 70 in a 65 and he must have been doing about 80 when he went by. Pretty cool looking. Note to Tesla, you need to make the name stand out better in the chrome piece along the trunk. I couldn't read it but the guy had a license plate frame that said Tesla. Neat looking car for the fraction of time I got to gawk at it.
2013-05-12 10:35:45 PM
1 votes:

Notabunny: That's weird. Because the hydrogen filling stations Honda built in LA are solar powered. At this point though, efficiency isn't the most important criteria. Both are young technologies and have to overcome many hurdles before becoming mainstream, while at the same time competing against a hugely profitable industry which has been receiving huge government subsidies for a century. However, I believe a form of energy which generates no pollution in its creation, and which emits only water when used, is ultimately going to win the contest. Probably not next week, but ultimately.


It's even easier to generate electricity straight for the car with solar than it is to go through the hydrogen middleman.   Straight EV is always going to be cleaner than hydrogen, because hydrogen is an extra unnecessary step that has associated inefficiencies.  I used to be pretty gung ho about hydrogen, but after taking some classes about it and looking closer into it, I realized that it has far more disadvantages than advantages compared to battery EVs.  Really the only "advantage" is that you can pull in to a filling station and refuel fairly rapidly.  But that is a dying paradigm.  Once people get a taste of EVs, they would never dream of going back to a system in which you regularly have to go fill up.
2013-05-12 09:39:28 PM
1 votes:

dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.


I don't see how it will ever be as convenient to winch multi-hundred-pound battery packs into and out of place as it is to pump one or two dozen gallons of liquid from tank A to tank B.

Or why gas stations would be interested in keeping racks of charged battery packs ready to go, when they're bound to be less profitable by volume than liquid gasoline.
2013-05-12 09:28:10 PM
1 votes:

Hollie Maea: Notabunny: How much carbon dioxide and fine particulate soot is put into the atmosphere when making electricity? How much for hydrogen? I don't think people are going to forget about wanting to breath clean air.

More for hydrogen.  A lot more.  Hydrogen is either made from reforming hydrocarbons (with CO2 as the byproduct) or by electrolysis of water (uses electricity and is inefficient).  Once you have the hydrogen, your fuel cell is significantly less efficient than a battery.



That's weird. Because the hydrogen filling stations Honda built in LA are solar powered. At this point though, efficiency isn't the most important criteria. Both are young technologies and have to overcome many hurdles before becoming mainstream, while at the same time competing against a hugely profitable industry which has been receiving huge government subsidies for a century. However, I believe a form of energy which generates no pollution in its creation, and which emits only water when used, is ultimately going to win the contest. Probably not next week, but ultimately.
2013-05-12 09:24:02 PM
1 votes:

ha-ha-guy: After which the hydrogen fuel cell will pretty much destroy both gas and electric.


Hydrogen is not a fuel. The energy cost of manufacturing, transporting and storing hydrogen makes this a total loser. The cycle is less than 18% efficient, which is worse than the gasoline cars of the 1950s.
2013-05-12 09:05:00 PM
1 votes:

wildlifer: 332,000 miles and counting. I can fix it with a small set of tools. No computer required. Parts are even on deep discount on amazon.


Oh, I don't doubt that your rig is indestructable.  But I think you will find far fewer stranded EVers to play hero for than you expect.
2013-05-12 09:03:52 PM
1 votes:

Notabunny: How much carbon dioxide and fine particulate soot is put into the atmosphere when making electricity? How much for hydrogen? I don't think people are going to forget about wanting to breath clean air.


More for hydrogen.  A lot more.  Hydrogen is either made from reforming hydrocarbons (with CO2 as the byproduct) or by electrolysis of water (uses electricity and is inefficient).  Once you have the hydrogen, your fuel cell is significantly less efficient than a battery.
2013-05-12 09:03:38 PM
1 votes:

satanorsanta: What nobody seems to recognize is the sheer number of people that live in apartments ~25% of all americans.  I have no way to charge an electric car even though I should be in the perfect demographic.  My wife and I take a bus to work even though we have a car (because it is cheaper/easier than parking in Boston).  Even though we drive all weekend and often during the evenings we get gas once per month.  But the only way to charge an electric car would be to run an extension cord up to my second floor apartment and through a window.  It would even be difficult for my parents to charge an electric car because they don't have garages and would need to run an extension cord.


Same here. It's only a five mile commute each way. But no outlets available at either end of the trip.
2013-05-12 08:24:29 PM
1 votes:
I want an electric car. Make it affordable and practical and I'll buy it.
2013-05-12 08:16:37 PM
1 votes:
Increase the federal tax credit to $15,000 and eliminate state sales tax for purchasing one of these, and see what happens.
2013-05-12 08:09:38 PM
1 votes:

Hollie Maea: Notabunny: Plug-in electric cars are a stepping stone. The future is hydrogen fuel cells.


[img.photobucket.com image 275x183]

Hydrogen is way behind EVs and falling behind every year.  In a couple of years when people finally realize that refilling speed is a non factor, no one will ever even think about hydrogen cars again.


How much carbon dioxide and fine particulate soot is put into the atmosphere when making electricity? How much for hydrogen? I don't think people are going to forget about wanting to breath clean air.
2013-05-12 08:07:04 PM
1 votes:
I wonder what the critical mass needs to be before the automobile associations put a few charging trucks online to their roadside assistance fleet?  That would give a little more comfort if you could have AAA/CAA come out and charge you up with a mobile DC fast charge system if you miscalculated your distances or were counting on topping up at a charger but found it was out of order.
2013-05-12 07:52:39 PM
1 votes:

RickN99: After one of the other EV threads, I walked around the parking lot to find a 110V outlet.  Looks like I'd need a looooooooooong extension cord, plus cross the building's driveway to get to an outlet.  It would be pricey to set up and the daily traffic running over the cord means frequent replacement.

Is my suburban Atlanta office building behind the times or do most of them not have outlets in the parking lot?


There are certainly buildings/parking lots that exist that don't have outdoor outlets, but far more often than not they do.  A lot of times there are outlets on lightpoles in parking lots.  Often several weatherproof outlets along the edge of buildings.  I think I am going to start taking pictures of them when I see them because this is nowhere near the last time we will have this thread.
2013-05-12 07:38:56 PM
1 votes:

Hollie Maea: Waldo Pepper: germ78: If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.

Where do you plug it in?

Find a standard 110V outlet.  You will get 40 miles of range while you work. It will cost your employer 60 cents, so make sure you ask permission first!


After one of the other EV threads, I walked around the parking lot to find a 110V outlet.  Looks like I'd need a looooooooooong extension cord, plus cross the building's driveway to get to an outlet.  It would be pricey to set up and the daily traffic running over the cord means frequent replacement.

Is my suburban Atlanta office building behind the times or do most of them not have outlets in the parking lot?
2013-05-12 07:14:23 PM
1 votes:
What nobody seems to recognize is the sheer number of people that live in apartments ~25% of all americans.  I have no way to charge an electric car even though I should be in the perfect demographic.  My wife and I take a bus to work even though we have a car (because it is cheaper/easier than parking in Boston).  Even though we drive all weekend and often during the evenings we get gas once per month.  But the only way to charge an electric car would be to run an extension cord up to my second floor apartment and through a window.  It would even be difficult for my parents to charge an electric car because they don't have garages and would need to run an extension cord.
2013-05-12 06:31:02 PM
1 votes:

Electrify: Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!


Because rent is cheap out there, and their time is totally worthless, and their only car maintenance expense is gas.

/In other words, they can't do math.
2013-05-12 06:00:28 PM
1 votes:
Batteries become less efficient with each charging cycle. Your 300 mile charge will be a 50 mile charge by year 5. Resale market for electrics cars will suck - hopefully the companies have recycling plans in place.
2013-05-12 05:53:27 PM
1 votes:
Fuggin Bizzy:
Also, then suddenly you have a security problem. Think a padlock will keep the tweakers out of the battery cage? Padlocks don't keep anyone serious out of anything, but at least propane tanks aren't so valuable. So you'd need a safe, and ... yeah, fark it.

The battery and control module on a Nissan Leaf weigh about 300 kg (660 lbs). And it's under the floor of the car.
They ain't stealing that sh*t.
2013-05-12 05:09:10 PM
1 votes:

edmo: I have a different take on the lifestyle aspect:

The type of person who would buy this car is probably pretty active, out and about and wants to use it to save money/energy.

The type of person who wouldn't buy it probably likes their 12 mpg truck just fine and spends the evening on the sofa watching Duck Dynasty when it could be out there charging.

So it's just a mismatch to begin with.


Using a higher quality bait might help you with your trolling
2013-05-12 04:48:22 PM
1 votes:

Great Janitor: The Nissan Leaf is the wrong car for me.  I live in DFW.  I live pretty much the same distance between Dallas and Fort Worth. That is enough distance for me to get from my home to Dallas or Ft Worth and have to plug the car in some where and wait for it to charge enough for me to get home.  I have friends in some places where I'd be unable to visit because once you factor in the road path to get to them, it would be over 40 miles.  With a gas engine you can drive you car in a way to slightly extend your gas mileage.  You can't do that with a battery car.  It says 40 miles, it's exactly 40 miles no coasting.  My mom is over 40 miles away from me.  In a Leaf she is too far away for me to visit.

Now, if you lived in a city like Chicago or New York and really wanted a car over the mass transit the city provides, then the Leaf would be a decent option.  That's assuming you never ever wanted to drive out of those cities.  For me, I still need a gas engine that gets more than 300 miles on a complete gas up.  Now, I would not mind a hybrid.  I test drove the Kia Optima hybrid last year and I loved it and I wouldn't mind driving it again.  But here's the thing with hybrids: are they really cheaper in the long run?  Right now between car payment and gas ups my car costs me $600/month with $400 of that being the car payment. My car pays off in October.  Last time I looked, a used 2012 Kia Optima hybrid was over $20,000.  That's going to cost me more than $600 a month even if I only had to gas up once a month.  Right now it's cheaper to me to stay with my car.  Especially after October when the car pays off.  Now, if some jackass rear ends me and totals out my car before October or after it pays off, then I may take the check for the car the insurance company would give me and go ahead and buy a used Kia Optima hybrid if the numbers worked out.


I just double checked the range of the Leaf on Wikipedia, and the EPA says it is about 73 miles. So ya, while it should get you into town (a rough distance measure on Google Maps says 30 miles between downtown Fort Worth and Dallas), it wouldn't be flexible enough for what you need it to do.

That said, the Tesla Model S has a 300 mile range. While expensive now, as the prices come down an EV could be a real option for you in the near future.

/EVs and hybrids also have lower maintenance costs, something to factor in when comparing costs as well
2013-05-12 04:47:14 PM
1 votes:

Notabunny: Plug-in electric cars are a stepping stone. The future is hydrogen fuel cells.


[img.photobucket.com image 275x183]


Hydrogen is way behind EVs and falling behind every year.  In a couple of years when people finally realize that refilling speed is a non factor, no one will ever even think about hydrogen cars again.
2013-05-12 02:22:27 PM
1 votes:

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: 2 years ago, if you said you were buying an electric car, people would mostly laugh at you.
Now, some people laugh but many ask questions, as they are starting to enter the mainstream.
5 years from now electric will be a standard choice and will have a fair share of the market.
15 years from now almost nobody will make or sell internal combustion vehicles.


I don't know about that. people have been declaring the death of internal-combustion engines for longer than I've been alive, and if anything they're getting better. They're hardly in decline.

 For the near-total replacement of ICE-powered cars to happen on your timetable there will have to be a wholesale overhaul of the road infrastructure of the US. I wouldn't bet on that.
2013-05-12 02:18:55 PM
1 votes:

edmo: I have a different take on the lifestyle aspect:

The type of person who would buy this car is probably pretty active, out and about and wants to use it to save money/energy.

The type of person who wouldn't buy it probably likes their 12 mpg truck just fine and spends the evening on the sofa watching Duck Dynasty when it could be out there charging.

So it's just a mismatch to begin with.


Huh, yeah, huh.
ALSO:

Lost Thought 00: Buy one or don't buy one, don't biatch about other people's personal decisions. Stop trying to use the government to force your ideology on everyone else


SO you're suggesting we end oil subsides?
2013-05-12 01:51:09 PM
1 votes:

germ78: If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.


Or sleeping.  Or buying groceries.  Or working out at the gym. Or going for a hike. Or any of the things you do when you are not driving.

Honestly, the most intolerable thing for me if I had to go back to a gas powered car would be stopping for gas. Sure it is only 5 minutes, but I hate that shiat. With a gas car, you refil when you are on your way somewhere. With an EV, you refill when you are staying somewhere.
2013-05-12 01:44:05 PM
1 votes:
Pure EVs won't make it here in most of Florida. We have this thing called Hurricane Season every year. We don't get bad ones every year, but when we do, you can't be sitting on your ass for 8 hours waiting for the car to charge just to drive 200 miles and then wait for ANOTHER 8 hours to recharge. And that's only if the power is still on. Even down in the Keys, you can fill up a standard car and toss a couple 5 gallon containers of gas in the back and be able to hit Georgia or South Carolina (depending on vehicle). You can bring 'extra charge' with you. For extended power outages, gas pumps (some) can be run from generator or, if need be, hand pump. Good luck recharging a dead EV car with a portable generator while a storm with 125 MPH winds approaches. Even having one of each doesn't sound so good if you are stuck leaving the $70k car behind to get eaten by the storm.

/yeah, yeah, I know... Florida People Problems
2013-05-12 01:37:07 PM
1 votes:
If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.
2013-05-12 01:30:14 PM
1 votes:

dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.


Here's a picture of the Tesla Model S platform:
static.ddmcdn.com

Basically, everything you see that isn't fenders or directly connected to wheels is part of the battery array.  There's no way that you could economically swap the batteries on that while taking a road trip.

What you could do, however, is stop at a supercharger station for 30-60 minutes and leave your car to fully recharge while you get something to eat at a nearby diner.  The battery lasts long enough that by the time I'd need to recharge it (4-5 hours for the 85kWh model), I know I'd need to recharge myself as well.
2013-05-12 01:06:05 PM
1 votes:

dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.


It is a different paradigm. With an EV, if you are "pulling into a station" more than twice a year, you're doing it wrong. Even with a relatively limited range, you would be surprised how having a full charge every morning all but eliminates the need to ever stop to charge when you are out and about.  When I bought my EV I expected to be stopping at public charging stations once a month or so. 6500 miles later, I have had to use one exactly once. And it was no big deal because I had stuff to do while it charged. And I wouldn't have ever needed one so far if I bothered to install a level 2 charger at home.  And it's not like I have a Model S.  My car has a range of 80-100 miles.

People who don't have EVs think about every time they have to stop for gas and then imagine how much it would suck if it took  several hours. But that isn't how it works. As longer ranges from 200-300 miles become more common in the next 2 or 3 years, the only time it will be necessary for anyone to charge on the go will b during cross country trips. And battery swap stations won't be necessary. If we really are going to build a bunch of new infrastructure, make chargers that can handle the capabilities of the batteries, which is 3C--fast enough to charge to 80 percent in about 15 minutes.

The only people who were supporting battery swap (Renault) have already realized that it is an unnecessary and undesirable non starter.
2013-05-12 12:56:57 PM
1 votes:

Fuggin Bizzy: At the same time, the analyst said, gasoline-powered cars "are improving enough to meet the needs of the consumer," without the price tag of electric cars.

This right here. I just bought a 2011 Toyota Corolla that routinely gets 35 MPG with snow tires on it. It was much, much, cheaper than the Prius we bought brand-new a few years back, and the mileage is comparable. (The Prius averaged around 45 - most of my driving is on the highway in a mountainous area.)


That said, why can't there be both?  I'm getting tired of people who think we just need one solution.  Why not have a variety of them?  That will work as well.

I'm a bit concerned about our national attitude.  We've gone from 'let'shiat the moon in X years' to 'but this will mean we have to update our power infrastructure (which needs to be done anyway), and it's sooooo haaaard.'  What the fark happened to Americans where we boast about paying for our shiat yet don't?
2013-05-12 12:43:57 PM
1 votes:
Living in northern Canada, many businesses have plugs available so that you can use a block heater in the winter. Charging at work instead of at home would be a nice benefit.
Thing is, we also deal with lots of snow and ice. I'm not sure how the cold weather would affect range, but I do know that having an adequate winter vehicle is a major necessity. All of the electric vehicles are typically low clearance and non four wheel drive.
I wonder if a small pickup (think Ranger or Tacoma) would be successful. You've got more room for batteries, and the high torque would be nice as well.
2013-05-12 11:23:23 AM
1 votes:
I think many here will agree that no matter what you think of EV vs regular vehicle I think the real problem is how far a lot of people have to drive to and from work every day and that mistakes were made along the way with the development of suburbia.
2013-05-12 11:20:55 AM
1 votes:

Adolf Oliver Nipples: The technology exists for a specific subset of people. If you don't fit in that subset, don't buy the car.


It seems like many people look at if from the other side: If it doesn't work for EVERYONE, don't sell it.

Can I get a full size car with a 60 mile range for a reasonable price yet? We already have the minivan for hauling the kids and vacations, and I'm in the process of buying a hotrod, so I just need something for the 4 mile commute that won't get punted off the road by every stupid soccer mom in an Escalade or gardener with an overloaded trailer.
2013-05-12 11:13:52 AM
1 votes:
I'll take it.

8 hours? So, I get home at night, maybe pop out again, then at 11pm, it's on charge, so by 7am, it's fully charged. I'll live with that.

Now, I know there's the whole "what about driving 500 miles?" Fine. I'll hire a car. Not enough charge occassionally? Fine, I'll pay for a cab those days.

The main downside at the moment is the damn cost of electric cars. Too expensive.
2013-05-12 11:13:06 AM
1 votes:

sammyk: Everytime I hear some car 'expert' complain about the charge times for electrics I have to wonder if it isn't being written at Exxon HQ. It's just a BS argument and everyone should know better.

The sweet spot for electric cars is the daily commuter. The Tesla model s has a 300 mile range. That is enough for the longest daily commute most could imagine with power to spare. Plug it in when you get home and its fully charged in the morning. Most families have more than one car as well. So you have a car that runs on gas for the long trips. Or rent one.

In my case I work from home. So I get to keep my gas guzzling mid life crisis car. But the wife has an 80 mile plus commute everyday. We are seriously considering electric for her next daily commuter. If it's something that has a 300 mile range she is good to go every single day. That still leaves us with in range of the beach and mountains. As long as I have electricity on the other side I am good. In fact the only trip we do that would probably not work is the 500 mile trip we take once in a while to see her parents.

In short, no I will not be sitting around watching the car charge. It would have a full charge everytime I leave the driveway. If my destination is not in range I'm taking the hotrod.




Not that I'm going to tell you how to live your life,but if you work from home and wife has an 80-mile commute, isn't it the more environmentally friendly thing to move closer to where she works?
2013-05-12 11:06:40 AM
1 votes:

sammyk: The sweet spot for electric cars is the daily commuter. The Tesla model s has a 300 mile range. That is enough for the longest daily commute most could imagine with power to spare. Plug it in when you get home and its fully charged in the morning. Most families have more than one car as well. So you have a car that runs on gas for the long trips. Or rent one.


While I fully support the development of this technology, I would hate to find myself with a car low on charge and in the middle of an emergency that shuts down the power grid (especially for an extended period).
2013-05-12 11:04:58 AM
1 votes:
I drive about one hour a day. Rest of the time Car sits pretty much next to a electric socket. So eight hours doesn't sound too bad. Too bad it runs on gasoline and seems to like it a lot.
 
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