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(Phys Org2)   "Sitting around for eight hours waiting for your (Nissan) Leaf to charge up is not exactly a selling point. EVs have a sitting-on-your-ass factor that conventional cars do not"   (phys.org) divider line 180
    More: Fail, conventional car, J.D. Power, Center for Automotive Research, Rebecca Lindland, Fisker Automotive, plug-in electric car, Sergio Marchionne, government-backed loan  
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3195 clicks; posted to Business » on 12 May 2013 at 10:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-13 01:16:41 AM  

anfrind: rynthetyn: Once I graduate and get a real job where I can't get away with commuting by scooter any more, I guess I'm going to have to give in and buy another car.

Don't give up on your scooter just yet.  I had to relocate after graduation (my new job was nearly 100 miles from where I lived at the time), and I managed to find a decent, reasonably-priced apartment just two miles from work--trivial biking distance.


Yeah, if I can work that I will, though I don't know how much confidence it would instill in a client if their lawyer shows up on a scooter.
 
2013-05-13 01:56:53 AM  

RickN99: Hollie Maea: Waldo Pepper: germ78: If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.

Where do you plug it in?

Find a standard 110V outlet.  You will get 40 miles of range while you work. It will cost your employer 60 cents, so make sure you ask permission first!

After one of the other EV threads, I walked around the parking lot to find a 110V outlet.  Looks like I'd need a looooooooooong extension cord, plus cross the building's driveway to get to an outlet.  It would be pricey to set up and the daily traffic running over the cord means frequent replacement.

Is my suburban Atlanta office building behind the times or do most of them not have outlets in the parking lot?


Hmm never dawned on me that the warm climates wouldnt have plugs at every parking space at homes and apartments....lots of public parkades do too. So the infrastructure is there any place where people have block heaters on their vehicles.
 
2013-05-13 04:25:29 AM  

enry: Gas stations would love that. You have nothing to do for 25 minutes except go in the store and get some food or coffee.


I think this would do good things for the road toll (road deaths).  Forcing people who are driving long distances to stop and rest and maybe have a nap for 15 minutes every few hours would be a good thing.
 
2013-05-13 09:13:19 AM  

ajgeek: Let's see. Infrastructure isn't in place, nearest dealer to me is over 500 miles away, significantly higher cost than a standard internal combustion, lower range, no mechanics, proprietary designs with no access to blueprints or designs... oh and an 8 hour charge!


all of THIS.

People will buy them when they don't suck floppy donkey dick
 
2013-05-13 10:15:21 AM  

MatrixOutsider: Increase the federal tax credit to $15,000 and eliminate state sales tax for purchasing one of these, and see what happens.


Make it completely free and raise income taxes by 10% to support it.

Voila! electric car success!
 
2013-05-13 10:35:46 AM  

if_i_really_have_to: enry: Gas stations would love that. You have nothing to do for 25 minutes except go in the store and get some food or coffee.

I think this would do good things for the road toll (road deaths).  Forcing people who are driving long distances to stop and rest and maybe have a nap for 15 minutes every few hours would be a good thing.


dunno, most accidents seem to be caused by people being impatient/careless regardless of the distance they're driving or what type of transport they're using

as for the EV itself, it's really foolish to think everybody will buy them as they exist now... if you sold a gas-powered car that had a 100 mile range it would bomb worse than an EV, really the EV is selling based on the cost-saving benefits of not buying gas but that range is really what stops it from being a more widespread thing

the other issues are repairs of proprietary components and recharge times... again, if said 100mi gas car took 60min-8 hours to recharge, nobody would buy it

so the issue at the end of the day is practicality, most people don't just drive their car from home to work and then back and that's it, there's the issue of carpooling or picking other people up or groceries or weekend trips, there's also the sheer spontaneity of driving that means being ready to travel at a moment's notice without pre-planning

i wouldn't be shocked if in 10 years battery technology changes dramatically and 300mi range is the minimum and recharge times are lowered dramatically and weight is reduced and repairs cheaper, but as it is right now we're looking at the early adopter phase of this technology... besides, most people didn't buy cars for almost 50 years after they were debuted - the interstate highway system had a lot to do with that
 
2013-05-13 11:50:17 AM  
To all the anti-electric car people who aren't shills for major petroleum corporation I ask you this:
My wife and I have two vehicles: the small car I drive and a minivan with an almost 500 mile range on a tank of gas.
-We both dive under 6 miles to work.
-The minivan is used for errands, trips to the parents and vacations.
-The small car probably hasn't been more than 15 miles from home in almost a decade.

If I want to replace the small car with an all-electric Leaf: what's the problem?
 
2013-05-13 01:08:16 PM  

mjohnson71: To all the anti-electric car people who aren't shills for major petroleum corporation I ask you this:
My wife and I have two vehicles: the small car I drive and a minivan with an almost 500 mile range on a tank of gas.
-We both dive under 6 miles to work.
-The minivan is used for errands, trips to the parents and vacations.
-The small car probably hasn't been more than 15 miles from home in almost a decade.

If I want to replace the small car with an all-electric Leaf: what's the problem?


You're spending all your money on gas for a minivan. Under the conditions you listed, there is no scenario where you would ever recoup the premium price you'll pay for an electric vehicle. Get a civic or similar high-mileage car for cheap instead.
 
2013-05-13 01:12:30 PM  
Just to put a perspective on the whole "Electric cars are slightly inconvenient" spin:

Please try to remember what gasoline cars used to be like.  When they were first built, they were a rich-man's toy.  The cost to purchase, keep, and maintain an automobile was easily hundreds of times the cost of stabling a good horse.  The infrastructure was terrible, both in terms of roads and fuel.  More importantly, they were mechanically unreliable, finicky, and dangerous.  People used to be KILLED trying to crank-start an automobile (the designer at Cadillac who pioneered the electric-starter did so after a friend died as a result of chest injuries from a crank-start incident).

Combustion automobiles, even after they became ubiquitous and (relatively) inexpensive were still plagued by many reliability issues and required vastly more skill to operate than the modern auto.  Ever tried to drive a '31 Model A?  Non-synchro-transmission, manual choke, manual MIXTURE control for the carburetor, manual timing advance for the ignition.  Just getting it started requires multiple adjustments, let alone keeping it running during changing seasons and atmospheric conditions.

So, for those of you complaining that a car that spends upwards of 20 hours a day parked might have to spend eight of those hours parked next to an outlet, that's a damn silly thing to you to tell OTHER people not to do.  If it isn't right for you, fine.  For those who want to be on the upward side of the slope in terms of adopting new technology, I say: MORE POWER (heh) TO YOU!
 
2013-05-13 01:15:43 PM  

Herbie555: If it isn't right for you, fine


I don't drive an electric vehicle for the same reason I don't drive an F-350.

Funny, though, how nobody ever tells contractors to stop driving trucks and that their choice of vehicle is an inconvenient trend that will never catch on....
 
2013-05-13 01:27:23 PM  

Carousel Beast: You're spending all your money on gas for a minivan. Under the conditions you listed, there is no scenario where you would ever recoup the premium price you'll pay for an electric vehicle.


For the range he needs, he could get a Mitsubishi i-MiEV.  They cost about 20K after subsidies.  Hardly a "premium price".
 
2013-05-13 02:03:34 PM  
A few points to make, and apologies if they were made earlier in the thread:
* The practicality of EVs is highly geography-dependent. If you live in, say, the Seattle-Tacoma area of Washington and your commute isn't too long, an EV is a wonderful option -- you've got cheap hydro power, above-average gas prices, lots of destinations within range, and a somewhat tech-oriented and green-oriented population (meaning that there are a fair number of businesses putting in charging stations to show their green credentials). If you live in the middle of the country -- with expensive electricity, cheaper gasoline, and destinations much more spread out -- things aren't so good.
* It takes about four hours for me to charge my Leaf from zero to full in my garage. But in another sense, it takes about forty seconds -- twenty seconds to plug in when I get home, twenty seconds to unplug when I leave. As long as I don't have some long-range unexpected trip, it almost doesn't matter how long it actually takes, because I'm not a captive audience.
* Even though high-speed chargers are starting to crop up along the interstates around here, it's still not a good choice for long-distance travel. But with the money you save on daily commutes, you can afford a lot of rental cars for those occasional adventures.
 
2013-05-13 02:36:54 PM  

skozlaw: Funny, though, how nobody ever tells contractors to stop driving trucks


Do people really walk up to an electric car driver and say "Hey!  Stop driving that electric car!".  That is the insinuation of your comment, isn't it?
 
2013-05-13 02:46:46 PM  

dforkus: I'd really like a cng civic. 250 mile range and less than 30k. not as green as an electric, but since we are burning the stuff off at the wellhead, might as well use it...

The problem is my 12 year old 4 cylinder sedan is paid for, only needs liability insurance and doesn't seem to want to die.

I'd like to see more cng filling stations, though there is one in the area.


this, This, THIS

We have so much natural gas right now that we don't know what to do with it. It's literally being burned off uselessly instead of being put to productive use.

The technology to use this as engine fuel is decades old. Converting a conventional engine is quite inexpensive. i can't imagine why we haven't at least converted the trucking industry and corporate vehicle fleets over to this.

If battery or fuel cell powered electric vehicles represent the future, natural gas damn well should represent the present.
 
2013-05-13 02:58:23 PM  

MrEricSir: dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.

[img200.imageshack.us image 670x445]

You mean like the Better Place robotic battery swap stations?


Oooooh... Now that's seriously cool.
 
2013-05-13 03:06:33 PM  

RickN99: Do people really walk up to an electric car driver and say "Hey!  Stop driving that electric car!".  That is the insinuation of your comment, isn't it?


They do sometimes unplug our cars when they walk by in order to "show us" though.
 
2013-05-13 03:09:32 PM  

BullBearMS: Oooooh... Now that's seriously cool.


It's also something you'll never see. The only major manufacturer that was supporting this (Renault) has decided that it is pointless due to the significant increases in the rate at which batteries can be recharged.
 
2013-05-13 03:24:55 PM  

Notabunny: Plug-in electric cars are a stepping stone. The future is hydrogen fuel cells.


Why go electricity--hydrogen---car instead of electricity----car? Hydrogen is a crappy substitute for a good battery.
 
2013-05-13 03:27:55 PM  

RickN99: Do people really walk up to an electric car driver and say "Hey! Stop driving that electric car!". That is the insinuation of your comment, isn't it?


I don't know about that, but you see exactly that sort of attitude in these threads all the time. People act like they're proven failures and there's no need or justification anywhere for them and anybody who would buy one must be some sort of hippy idiot. Look at the attitude so many people have toward Prius drivers, saying that they're smug and whatnot.

Basically, they take the attitude that because their experience tells them an EV would be wrong in their situation it must be wrong in all situations.  "I live 40 miles from work therefore there must be nobody who could drive one of these things regularly!"

We're talking about a country in which a significant portion of people took it as a personal attack against them when Bush signed off on the CFL changeover.... we're not talking about entirely rational people here.
 
2013-05-13 03:53:56 PM  

Ned Stark: Why go electricity--hydrogen---car instead of electricity----car? Hydrogen is a crappy substitute for a good battery.


Most of the arguments for hydrogen that I have heard boil down to the fact that some people feel a lot better about life if they have a jerrycan of fuel in their trunk.
 
2013-05-13 04:16:59 PM  

anfrind: therefore it's only a "green" vehicle if you rarely travel more than 35 miles


Conveniently enough, that's the <a href="
http://1bts.rita.dot.gov/publications/highlights_of_the_2001_nationa l_ household_travel_survey/html/table_a17.html">average American</a>.
 
2013-05-13 04:43:25 PM  

germ78: If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.


Additionally, I also know many people who sleep on a fairly regular basis.
 
2013-05-13 05:57:49 PM  
I've had my Leaf for two months now. My commute is about 60 miles round trip every weekday, plus I drive it about 30-50 miles each weekend.

I've never had to wait one second for my car to be charged when I need it. Sometimes I will stop at the Fred Meyer that's on the way home and plug into the (free) quick-charger there while I shop, but that's purely optional and just saves me a bit of money off my home electricity bill.

This car isn't for everyone. It's PERFECT for me. I am in love with it.
 
2013-05-13 06:43:30 PM  

Hollie Maea: The 2013 leaf has an EPA range of 84 miles that you can use when you need it.

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2013-nissan-leaf-revealed-gets- 75 -mile-range-actually-84-in-n/


I average between 90 and 95 miles a charge on my commute.
 
2013-05-13 08:16:03 PM  
Speaking as someone who has been around for over a half a century, I'd like to weigh in.
/185#, same as highschool.
Seriously.
EVs are gadgets.
Like PCs were. Big, expensive, clunky, full of bugs,
Wait a few years while they work the bugs out, make them lighter, with high impact crumple zones, made from recycled juice boxes, and smaller.
Then all you need to do is buy and app at the stop light to print you a burger in the in dash food processor.
Let them recharge on recycled farts from your seat cushion.
Pour a margarita from the stick shifter/beer tap because it's self driving, and prop your crotchfuit up in the driver's seat. It's all good.
/in 40 years.
 
2013-05-13 08:23:19 PM  

Falin: Hollie Maea: The 2013 leaf has an EPA range of 84 miles that you can use when you need it.

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2013-nissan-leaf-revealed-gets- 75 -mile-range-actually-84-in-n/

I average between 90 and 95 miles a charge on my commute.


Yeah...the EPA rating algorithm doesn't baby the cars at all. I also regularly do better with my Think City and I don't hyper mile or do anything weird like that.
 
2013-05-13 08:36:50 PM  
ajgeek * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-05-12 09:24:53 AM <i>Lindland said her view that Americans "just don't see how an electric car can fit into their lifestyle. We continue to be risk-averse in investing in <a data-cke-saved-href="http://phys.org/tags/new+technology/" rel="tag" class="textTag">new technology in our cars." </i> Let's see. Infrastructure isn't in place, nearest dealer to me is over 500 miles away, significantly higher cost than a standard internal combustion, lower range, no mechanics, proprietary designs with no access to blueprints or designs... oh and an 8 hour charge!
--------------------------------------------------------

What the hell infrastructure do you need for electric cars? An electric plug. Every single building in america has at least 10 of them.

Plug it in, go to sleep. This is not rocket science.

Hydrogen cars would need a lot of infrastructure, cause you need places to sell it. Electric cars DO NOT have this problem.
 
2013-05-13 09:18:43 PM  

jake3988: Hydrogen cars would need a lot of infrastructure, cause you need places to sell it. Electric cars DO NOT have this problem.


Well, they kind of do, since the existing electric grid has trouble keeping up with the demand for a/c on hot days already.

We'd need a higher capacity electric grid if everyone was going to switch over to this at once.

However, since our electric grid is part of the nation's infrastructure that pretty much needs to be replaced already....
 
2013-05-13 10:36:45 PM  

Hollie Maea: Ned Stark: Why go electricity--hydrogen---car instead of electricity----car? Hydrogen is a crappy substitute for a good battery.

Most of the arguments for hydrogen that I have heard boil down to the fact that some people feel a lot better about life if they have a jerrycan of fuel in their trunk.


Actually, most of the manufacturers' arguments pro-hydrogen are that FCVs are better suited for larger sedans and trucks, which require longer ranges and cargo capacities.  For instance, the very-popular SUV segment is ideal ground for FCVs.

BEVs, so argue the automakers, are well suited for smaller cars, specifically daily commuters that don't require large ranges.

Both BEVs and FCVs will be made and sold to the public.  Anyone who says it's got to be one or the other is obviously biased.  It's like saying either gasoline or diesel, but you have to choose.  Different drivetrains offer different benefits.  However, both BEVs and FCVs offer the same benefit of reducing and ultimately eliminating GHG emissions from autos (moving them back to a centralized power/hydrogen plant), as well as reducing our need to import oil.
 
2013-05-13 10:40:00 PM  

Hollie Maea: RickN99: Do people really walk up to an electric car driver and say "Hey!  Stop driving that electric car!".  That is the insinuation of your comment, isn't it?

They do sometimes unplug our cars when they walk by in order to "show us" though.


That sounds like easy pickings for meth heads looking for some copper to steal. The cords, that is. I can't imagine they'd be cheap to replace either. Of course, with gas power they'll siphon your tank, so that's kind of a wash.
 
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