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(Phys Org2)   "Sitting around for eight hours waiting for your (Nissan) Leaf to charge up is not exactly a selling point. EVs have a sitting-on-your-ass factor that conventional cars do not"   (phys.org) divider line 180
    More: Fail, conventional car, J.D. Power, Center for Automotive Research, Rebecca Lindland, Fisker Automotive, plug-in electric car, Sergio Marchionne, government-backed loan  
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3195 clicks; posted to Business » on 12 May 2013 at 10:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



180 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-05-12 01:51:09 PM  

germ78: If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.


Or sleeping.  Or buying groceries.  Or working out at the gym. Or going for a hike. Or any of the things you do when you are not driving.

Honestly, the most intolerable thing for me if I had to go back to a gas powered car would be stopping for gas. Sure it is only 5 minutes, but I hate that shiat. With a gas car, you refil when you are on your way somewhere. With an EV, you refill when you are staying somewhere.
 
2013-05-12 02:09:36 PM  
2 years ago, if you said you were buying an electric car, people would mostly laugh at you.
Now, some people laugh but many ask questions, as they are starting to enter the mainstream.
5 years from now electric will be a standard choice and will have a fair share of the market.
15 years from now almost nobody will make or sell internal combustion vehicles.
 
2013-05-12 02:11:02 PM  

ajgeek: dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.

Scaling aside,that's not as easy as you'd think. Those batteries are several thousand apiece, not many gas stations would be willing to put that kind of money up front for someone's convenience.

480V is a reasonable option, but not many homes have that option.


Gas stations would love that. You have nothing to do for 25 minutes except go in the store and get some food or coffee.
 
2013-05-12 02:12:22 PM  
Buy one or don't buy one, don't biatch about other people's personal decisions. Stop trying to use the government to force your ideology on everyone else
 
2013-05-12 02:18:55 PM  

edmo: I have a different take on the lifestyle aspect:

The type of person who would buy this car is probably pretty active, out and about and wants to use it to save money/energy.

The type of person who wouldn't buy it probably likes their 12 mpg truck just fine and spends the evening on the sofa watching Duck Dynasty when it could be out there charging.

So it's just a mismatch to begin with.


Huh, yeah, huh.
ALSO:

Lost Thought 00: Buy one or don't buy one, don't biatch about other people's personal decisions. Stop trying to use the government to force your ideology on everyone else


SO you're suggesting we end oil subsides?
 
2013-05-12 02:21:42 PM  

NutWrench: Get a hybrid car, then. If you spend 90% of the time within 50 miles of your house, you'll still save a ton of gas.


This.

Offer electric cars as electric-only or with the option of a turbine generator.  You can use CNG (maybe LNG eventually) for high pollution urban areas and diesel for elsewhere to extend range.
 
2013-05-12 02:22:27 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: 2 years ago, if you said you were buying an electric car, people would mostly laugh at you.
Now, some people laugh but many ask questions, as they are starting to enter the mainstream.
5 years from now electric will be a standard choice and will have a fair share of the market.
15 years from now almost nobody will make or sell internal combustion vehicles.


I don't know about that. people have been declaring the death of internal-combustion engines for longer than I've been alive, and if anything they're getting better. They're hardly in decline.

 For the near-total replacement of ICE-powered cars to happen on your timetable there will have to be a wholesale overhaul of the road infrastructure of the US. I wouldn't bet on that.
 
2013-05-12 02:24:02 PM  
The gas pumps seem to pump slower in the last decade anyway. Takes Damn near 8 hours to fill my truck... I think. I can't afford $150 fill ups.
 
2013-05-12 02:24:37 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Stop trying to use the government to force your ideology on everyone else


Then stop purchasing fuel on the public marketplace and expelling exhaust into the open atmosphere.  When you brew your own fuel from your land's own feedstock and suck your own fumes, then you can biatch about society trying to restrict you.
 
2013-05-12 02:25:23 PM  

Reverend Monkeypants: SO you're suggesting we end oil subsides?


End any subsidies that are given to companies specifically because they sell/process/mine oil. Do not end general subsidies to them simply because they sell/process/mine oil.
 
2013-05-12 02:31:43 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Buy one or don't buy one, don't biatch about other people's personal decisions. Stop trying to use the government to force your ideology on everyone else


Who you talkin' to, Willis? We're just talking cars here.
 
2013-05-12 02:34:09 PM  
I guess fast charging is imaginary.
 
2013-05-12 02:45:01 PM  

Dinjiin: NutWrench: Get a hybrid car, then. If you spend 90% of the time within 50 miles of your house, you'll still save a ton of gas.

This.

Offer electric cars as electric-only or with the option of a turbine generator.  You can use CNG (maybe LNG eventually) for high pollution urban areas and diesel for elsewhere to extend range.


My idea would be an electric sedan with a battery with the ability for modular extensions. Each extension would weigh about 50 pounds, and would be either extra batteries, or 2000 watt propane generators, or one of each. for perspective the very good Honda 2000i generator weighs 46 pounds
 
2013-05-12 03:00:05 PM  

Chevello: so I just need something for the 4 mile commute that won't get punted off the road by every stupid soccer mom in an Escalade or gardener with an overloaded trailer.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-12 03:02:28 PM  
There are huge chunks of time.. at night.. where I'm just asleep. For hours. It's ridiculous.
 
2013-05-12 03:09:35 PM  

dforkus: My idea would be an electric sedan with a battery with the ability for modular extensions. Each extension would weigh about 50 pounds, and would be either extra batteries, or 2000 watt propane generators, or one of each. for perspective the very good Honda 2000i generator weighs 46 pounds


That's not a bad idea.  It really isn't.  It would solve the problem fairly well.  But, all of the prospective solutions are going to be beaten to the punch by plain old fashioned battery technology.  The following combination:

100kWh battery packs (300 mile range)
3C batteries (charges to 80 percent in 15 minutes)
300kW chargers (3C) on the interstates and in the cities

Solves the range/charging issue completely, and far better than other solutions such as super capacitors, swapable batteries, hydrogen cars or range extenders.

And the technology is all there today.  Batteries can handle 3C charging.  It's "easy" to make a 300kW charger (far easier than building a battery swap station)  100kwH batteries fit in cars (the main limitation now is cost, but that is dropping very rapidly, and the massive lithium stores recently discovered in Wyoming will keep moving that along, though the big drop will be due to improvements in nano fabrication for the cathodes and anodes).

Even the "well how will you power those chargers in BFE when there isn't a massive substation handy" problem isn't too insurmountable.  All you need is 50kW array of solar panels, and a massive flow battery.  With those, just standard grid power would be fine to augment the solar array and keep the flow battery charged.  And the flow battery will pretty much never go bad.  Sure it would be super heavy but who gives a shiat.  Tesla could hide it in that massive obelisk they put at their super charger stations.
 
2013-05-12 03:15:48 PM  

Hollie Maea: 300kW chargers (3C) on the interstates and in the cities


Holy fark.  Even the Tesla Supercharger is only good for 90kW!
 
2013-05-12 03:18:52 PM  

born_yesterday: While I fully support the development of this technology, I would hate to find myself with a car low on charge and in the middle of an emergency that shuts down the power grid (especially for an extended period).


Because those gasoline pumps will keep right on working with no electricity, right?
 
2013-05-12 03:20:42 PM  
If you were the ultimate bum, you'd recharge it at your job or wherever you can find an available plug.

Free transport! :)

It's quite common to see supermarkets with charging stations where I live btw. At high power you get a full charge in 25minutes, plus its free.
 
2013-05-12 03:22:50 PM  
Plug-in electric cars are a stepping stone. The future is hydrogen fuel cells.


img.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-12 03:25:08 PM  

trackerbri: The Nissan Leaf battery pack weighs 660lbs. The Tesla S would likely run about 150lbs more than that based on the type of batteries they use. You're not going to be swapping them out without a forklift and other heavy equipment.


So maybe we should look at making these modular - like 11 - 66lb. packs, or 22 - 33lbs. This would no doubt add to manufacturing costs, but it would likely extend battery lifespan (total use through years before failure) as smaller battery packs could be replaced far easier and cheaper than a large one as its cells die.

I'm not a design engineer at an electric car company, but I'm pretty sure those guys are really smart. I bet they have a reason for doing it all in one battery pack rather than making smaller ones, I just wish I knew what it was. It sounds counterintuitive to me.
 
2013-05-12 03:39:58 PM  

ox45tallboy: trackerbri: The Nissan Leaf battery pack weighs 660lbs. The Tesla S would likely run about 150lbs more than that based on the type of batteries they use. You're not going to be swapping them out without a forklift and other heavy equipment.

So maybe we should look at making these modular - like 11 - 66lb. packs, or 22 - 33lbs. This would no doubt add to manufacturing costs, but it would likely extend battery lifespan (total use through years before failure) as smaller battery packs could be replaced far easier and cheaper than a large one as its cells die.

I'm not a design engineer at an electric car company, but I'm pretty sure those guys are really smart. I bet they have a reason for doing it all in one battery pack rather than making smaller ones, I just wish I knew what it was. It sounds counterintuitive to me.


Evs don't have one giant battery. The battery pack is an array of thousands of small cells. If want more range you just add more batteries in parallel. I think the issue with making them modular is that it just be a pain to take on and off that much weight.
 
2013-05-12 03:52:34 PM  
The Nissan Leaf is the wrong car for me.  I live in DFW.  I live pretty much the same distance between Dallas and Fort Worth. That is enough distance for me to get from my home to Dallas or Ft Worth and have to plug the car in some where and wait for it to charge enough for me to get home.  I have friends in some places where I'd be unable to visit because once you factor in the road path to get to them, it would be over 40 miles.  With a gas engine you can drive you car in a way to slightly extend your gas mileage.  You can't do that with a battery car.  It says 40 miles, it's exactly 40 miles no coasting.  My mom is over 40 miles away from me.  In a Leaf she is too far away for me to visit.

Now, if you lived in a city like Chicago or New York and really wanted a car over the mass transit the city provides, then the Leaf would be a decent option.  That's assuming you never ever wanted to drive out of those cities.  For me, I still need a gas engine that gets more than 300 miles on a complete gas up.  Now, I would not mind a hybrid.  I test drove the Kia Optima hybrid last year and I loved it and I wouldn't mind driving it again.  But here's the thing with hybrids: are they really cheaper in the long run?  Right now between car payment and gas ups my car costs me $600/month with $400 of that being the car payment. My car pays off in October.  Last time I looked, a used 2012 Kia Optima hybrid was over $20,000.  That's going to cost me more than $600 a month even if I only had to gas up once a month.  Right now it's cheaper to me to stay with my car.  Especially after October when the car pays off.  Now, if some jackass rear ends me and totals out my car before October or after it pays off, then I may take the check for the car the insurance company would give me and go ahead and buy a used Kia Optima hybrid if the numbers worked out.
 
2013-05-12 03:55:08 PM  
MrSteve007: Nissan LEAF charge times, from zero:

110v = 21 hours
220v = 4 hours
480v = 25 minutes (to 80%)


21 hrs on 110 v, 4 hrs on 220 v. Yeah IF I was buying an electric I'd have to add a 220 socket in the garage, I mean it takes 21 hours to charge with a 110, and there is less than 16 hours from getting off work today and going into work tomorrow.
 
2013-05-12 04:31:43 PM  

ox45tallboy: trackerbri: The Nissan Leaf battery pack weighs 660lbs. The Tesla S would likely run about 150lbs more than that based on the type of batteries they use. You're not going to be swapping them out without a forklift and other heavy equipment.

So maybe we should look at making these modular - like 11 - 66lb. packs, or 22 - 33lbs. This would no doubt add to manufacturing costs, but it would likely extend battery lifespan (total use through years before failure) as smaller battery packs could be replaced far easier and cheaper than a large one as its cells die.

I'm not a design engineer at an electric car company, but I'm pretty sure those guys are really smart. I bet they have a reason for doing it all in one battery pack rather than making smaller ones, I just wish I knew what it was. It sounds counterintuitive to me.


A couple of reasons. Making batteries hot swappable adds bulk, weight, and expense (the same reason why iPhones don't have swappable batteries), also the Tesla design puts the batteries on the bottom of the car, not only giving the car a lower center of gravity but also giving you a front storage space in addition to the rear hatch.
 
2013-05-12 04:33:41 PM  

born_yesterday: sammyk: The sweet spot for electric cars is the daily commuter. The Tesla model s has a 300 mile range. That is enough for the longest daily commute most could imagine with power to spare. Plug it in when you get home and its fully charged in the morning. Most families have more than one car as well. So you have a car that runs on gas for the long trips. Or rent one.

While I fully support the development of this technology, I would hate to find myself with a car low on charge and in the middle of an emergency that shuts down the power grid (especially for an extended period).


That tends to knock out the gas pumps too.

I'm assuming you have never actually been in such a situation. There are a lot of things that suck about a large scale power outage. I'd be more concerned about the local water being importable for several weeks.
 
2013-05-12 04:39:34 PM  
If there is any place where an EV could do well, it is in North American metro areas. With the exception of a few star players, mass transit in the US - even in some of the largest cities - is deplorable, so that is not a realistic option. In Canada transit is somewhat better in more of our larger cities, but in medium to small urban areas it is next to useless. And obviously those out in a rural setting would not benefit since besides the long distances, fossil fuels are most efficient at open road driving.

If you are in the built up area of any number of metropolitan areas however, an EV could be perfect.
 
2013-05-12 04:43:20 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Hollie Maea: 300kW chargers (3C) on the interstates and in the cities

Holy fark.  Even the Tesla Supercharger is only good for 90kW!


True, but there is no reason why we couldn't build 300kW chargers. One of the companies that makes EV conversion components makes a 1.2 MW controller (which from a power electronics standpoint is very similar to a charger) When Tesla started making the supercharger network, no one had done prolonged cycle tests on batteries above 1C charge rate, so that is what they built. Since then it has been discovered that they are good up to 3C charging rate. Don't be surprised if next week's big supercharger announcement includes higher power.
 
2013-05-12 04:47:14 PM  

Notabunny: Plug-in electric cars are a stepping stone. The future is hydrogen fuel cells.


[img.photobucket.com image 275x183]


Hydrogen is way behind EVs and falling behind every year.  In a couple of years when people finally realize that refilling speed is a non factor, no one will ever even think about hydrogen cars again.
 
2013-05-12 04:48:22 PM  

Great Janitor: The Nissan Leaf is the wrong car for me.  I live in DFW.  I live pretty much the same distance between Dallas and Fort Worth. That is enough distance for me to get from my home to Dallas or Ft Worth and have to plug the car in some where and wait for it to charge enough for me to get home.  I have friends in some places where I'd be unable to visit because once you factor in the road path to get to them, it would be over 40 miles.  With a gas engine you can drive you car in a way to slightly extend your gas mileage.  You can't do that with a battery car.  It says 40 miles, it's exactly 40 miles no coasting.  My mom is over 40 miles away from me.  In a Leaf she is too far away for me to visit.

Now, if you lived in a city like Chicago or New York and really wanted a car over the mass transit the city provides, then the Leaf would be a decent option.  That's assuming you never ever wanted to drive out of those cities.  For me, I still need a gas engine that gets more than 300 miles on a complete gas up.  Now, I would not mind a hybrid.  I test drove the Kia Optima hybrid last year and I loved it and I wouldn't mind driving it again.  But here's the thing with hybrids: are they really cheaper in the long run?  Right now between car payment and gas ups my car costs me $600/month with $400 of that being the car payment. My car pays off in October.  Last time I looked, a used 2012 Kia Optima hybrid was over $20,000.  That's going to cost me more than $600 a month even if I only had to gas up once a month.  Right now it's cheaper to me to stay with my car.  Especially after October when the car pays off.  Now, if some jackass rear ends me and totals out my car before October or after it pays off, then I may take the check for the car the insurance company would give me and go ahead and buy a used Kia Optima hybrid if the numbers worked out.


I just double checked the range of the Leaf on Wikipedia, and the EPA says it is about 73 miles. So ya, while it should get you into town (a rough distance measure on Google Maps says 30 miles between downtown Fort Worth and Dallas), it wouldn't be flexible enough for what you need it to do.

That said, the Tesla Model S has a 300 mile range. While expensive now, as the prices come down an EV could be a real option for you in the near future.

/EVs and hybrids also have lower maintenance costs, something to factor in when comparing costs as well
 
2013-05-12 04:56:48 PM  
The 2013 leaf has an EPA range of 84 miles that you can use when you need it.

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2013-nissan-leaf-revealed-gets- 75 -mile-range-actually-84-in-n/
 
2013-05-12 05:06:30 PM  
Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!
 
2013-05-12 05:08:16 PM  

germ78: If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.


Where do you plug it in?
 
2013-05-12 05:09:10 PM  

edmo: I have a different take on the lifestyle aspect:

The type of person who would buy this car is probably pretty active, out and about and wants to use it to save money/energy.

The type of person who wouldn't buy it probably likes their 12 mpg truck just fine and spends the evening on the sofa watching Duck Dynasty when it could be out there charging.

So it's just a mismatch to begin with.


Using a higher quality bait might help you with your trolling
 
2013-05-12 05:10:58 PM  

Electrify: Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!


It is actually unusual to commute farther than 30 miles one way here too. But it makes a good talking point against EVs so people like to pretend that it is a widespread practice that EVs must somehow address before anyone will buy them.
 
2013-05-12 05:12:47 PM  

Waldo Pepper: germ78: If you're sitting on your ass at work for 8 hours a day, might as well use that time to let it charge.

Where do you plug it in?


Find a standard 110V outlet.  You will get 40 miles of range while you work. It will cost your employer 60 cents, so make sure you ask permission first!
 
2013-05-12 05:18:57 PM  

Hollie Maea: Electrify: Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!

It is actually unusual to commute farther than 30 miles one way here too. But it makes a good talking point against EVs so people like to pretend that it is a widespread practice that EVs must somehow address before anyone will buy them.


EV threads, where prefect is the enemy of the good.
 
Xai
2013-05-12 05:23:18 PM  
Have a look at the Tesla S - 300 miles of juice in 1hr (and rather than paying $100 for the privilege, this is free)
 
2013-05-12 05:30:10 PM  

flaminio: haywatchthis: are you stealing power from your job

Many companies are providing EV charging stations free for employees.


Yep. One of my employees has an electric, so I offered free charging as part of the package. He's a valuable worker, so I let him pull into the shop and plug in for the hour or so it takes to charge up. His commute isn't that long (~10 miles), so the cost is very modest.
 
2013-05-12 05:31:46 PM  
It is actually unusual to commute farther than 30 miles one way here too. But it makes a good talking point against EVs so people like to pretend that it is a widespread practice that EVs must somehow address before anyone will buy them.

It's a really common thing in a lot of metropolitan areas in the US, because property costs are so high that people have to live out in the suburbs. In the DC area, it's not uncommon for people to have to commute 50 miles, simply because they can't afford a 3 bedroom house any closer.

Right now the model S is the first electric car that I've seen that could actually be a practical car for a lot of Americans. It's just too expensive right now, but that's to be expected as Tesla is still a small company and is working with new technologies.

I think the problem is that right now the economic case just isn't there yet for electric vehicles.  However if Tesla can ramp up production, in perhaps 5 years we may have the first true mass-market electric car (wouldn't surprise me if Tesla calls it the Model T after the first mass market car). If this car can get 300+ miles per charge, charge in less than a half hour, and cost around 30k, it would be able to curb stomp any other commuter vehicle on the market.
 
2013-05-12 05:33:51 PM  

dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.


Doesn't work like that. Propane tanks are one size, with one type of thread . The battery center would have to carry every type of battery for every type of car, and have the machinery necessary to swap them out without taking the vehicle apart.

Ever try to replace the rechargeable batteries in a cellphone that had swappable batteries? Ever try to do that with one where you needed to open the case to get the battery?

For your plan to work, everyone would need to use the same type of battery or at least one of a few types ("ford truck battery" "nissan car battery" "GM type 1" "GM type2") and so on, or sales would need to be restricted to just a few types of cars.
 
2013-05-12 05:39:05 PM  

dobro: All they need is interchangeable battery packs. Like the Blue Rhino propane tanks. Pull into a station and swap the battery pack. Faster than pumping gas.


img200.imageshack.us

You mean like the Better Place robotic battery swap stations?
 
2013-05-12 05:40:45 PM  

Electrify: Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!


Cost.  A $300K house in the outer East Bay is $1.5 Million here in the Valley (hour without traffic, 3 with).  Same with DC, New York (Heck, some people commute from PA to DC and NYC), LA (which is actually a bunch of urban centers that ran together.), and a whole bunch of cities like that.

It's not common, but it's not unheard of.  Especially after 35 or so, where you can't afford anything closer and have bedrooms for the kids (or if you change jobs, find it easier to commute a long distance than uproot your entire life)
 
2013-05-12 05:42:41 PM  

Dommo: (wouldn't surprise me if Tesla calls it the Model T after the first mass market car).


Pretty sure it would be the Model E, for economical, and electric. It would go right in with the Models S and X.

/Ford Model T was *not* the first mass-market car.  Not even the first to be produced on an assembly line.  Also, it was available in colors other than black.
 
2013-05-12 05:53:27 PM  
Fuggin Bizzy:
Also, then suddenly you have a security problem. Think a padlock will keep the tweakers out of the battery cage? Padlocks don't keep anyone serious out of anything, but at least propane tanks aren't so valuable. So you'd need a safe, and ... yeah, fark it.

The battery and control module on a Nissan Leaf weigh about 300 kg (660 lbs). And it's under the floor of the car.
They ain't stealing that sh*t.
 
2013-05-12 06:00:28 PM  
Batteries become less efficient with each charging cycle. Your 300 mile charge will be a 50 mile charge by year 5. Resale market for electrics cars will suck - hopefully the companies have recycling plans in place.
 
2013-05-12 06:01:57 PM  

Electrify: Quick question: Why do so many Americans live so far away from work? Canada has plenty of sprawl as well, but even then a 30 mile commute each way is at the top end of our daily travel range, and many of those commutes are done by commuter train rather than car. Seriously, why the hell are people commuting 50, 80, even 100 miles each way? By this point you are well outside the metropolitan statistical area and approaching cross-state commuting!


I am assuming you aren't from Southern Ontario. Commuting from Kitchener or Barrie is quite common, Barrie in particular is known as a commuter city for Toronto. And people living further away aren't uncommon.
 
2013-05-12 06:25:29 PM  
Waldo Pepper (favorite: fundie troll): Using a higher quality bait might help you with your trolling

Says the troll himself.
 
2013-05-12 06:28:00 PM  
I know I personally cannot leave my house if the gas tank isn't topped off. And I stop to add gas at every gas station I go to. And I drive 300 miles a day, every day.

Just like everyone else.
 
2013-05-12 06:28:41 PM  

rewind2846: Fuggin Bizzy:
Also, then suddenly you have a security problem. Think a padlock will keep the tweakers out of the battery cage? Padlocks don't keep anyone serious out of anything, but at least propane tanks aren't so valuable. So you'd need a safe, and ... yeah, fark it.

The battery and control module on a Nissan Leaf weigh about 300 kg (660 lbs). And it's under the floor of the car.
They ain't stealing that sh*t.


Never underestimate a tweaker Jawa, when it comes to scrapping.
 
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