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(New York Magazine)   Paul Ryan and the Republicans don't let things like "facts" and "reality" and "empirical evidence" get in the way of their economic point of view   (nymag.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Republican, empirical evidence, Yuval Levin, Carmen Reinhart, Independent Payment Advisory Board, electronic medical records, Kenneth Rogoff, National Affairs  
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4990 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 May 2013 at 12:26 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-11 07:35:24 PM  

Ishkur: The Stealth Hippopotamus: And pray tell what should federal living wage be?

Well, if we peg it to inflation like it should be, probably $12.87 (aka the federal poverty level for a family of four).

At the very least, it should be $10.00, which would put the purchasing power of the bottom rung consumer back to 1968 levels. I would go $11.00 as a compromise.


Wow you actually said a number? Most don't so good on you!

11 bucks is way too much to pay a fast food worker in Tulsa, OK. If you had two McDonalds workers get married you'd be over the average household income for the state. Since we can both agree that half the state of Oklahoma isn't poor I'd say that 11 bucks is too high for Oklahoma.
 
2013-05-11 07:42:53 PM  

vygramul: Keynes basically said that when consumer spending falls (bust), government spending must rise. During booms you pay off the debt you collected during busts - income smoothing on a societal level. But if you have a reasonable surplus, and things are good, then his economics are indistinguishable from trickle-down.


Pretty much.

Keynesian: "The key to keeping your house at a comfortable temperature is turning on your air conditioner when it's hot, and turning on your heater when it's cold."
Neoconservative: "BUT LAST SUMMER I TURNED ON MY HEATER AND IT GOT EVEN HOTTER! CLEARLY HEATERS DON'T WORK AND AIR CONDITIONING IS THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR EVERYTHING!"
 
2013-05-11 07:52:18 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Wow you actually said a number? Most don't so good on you!


I'm good at what I do, and what I do is argue on Fark.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: 11 bucks is way too much to pay a fast food worker in Tulsa, OK.


Why? Is the fast food in Tulsa any cheaper than it is in, say, San Francisco?

let me check: Varies from store to store, but the cost of a Big Mac meal around the country is:
Avg Price: $6.64(USD)
Max Price: $7.96(USD)
Min Price: $5.83(USD)

So even if we want to use the extreme ends of the wealthiest and poorest joints in the country, we're still only looking at $2.13 difference. And Oklahoma is far from the poorest state in the country (Mississippi is).

Would you prefer to use this as a metric for how Oklahoma pays its fast food employees? As far as I know, they all make Federal minimum wage ($7.25), despite the disparate living standards and relative costs of extra value meals. Do you think that's fair?

So $9.00 would suffice?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: If


Protip: Don't back your arguments with "If"
 
2013-05-11 08:36:34 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ishkur: The Stealth Hippopotamus: And pray tell what should federal living wage be?

Well, if we peg it to inflation like it should be, probably $12.87 (aka the federal poverty level for a family of four).

At the very least, it should be $10.00, which would put the purchasing power of the bottom rung consumer back to 1968 levels. I would go $11.00 as a compromise.

Wow you actually said a number? Most don't so good on you!

11 bucks is way too much to pay a fast food worker in Tulsa, OK. If you had two McDonalds workers get married you'd be over the average household income for the state. Since we can both agree that half the state of Oklahoma isn't poor I'd say that 11 bucks is too high for Oklahoma.


Do you live in Oklahoma?  I do.
 
2013-05-11 09:27:40 PM  

Mentat: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ishkur: The Stealth Hippopotamus: And pray tell what should federal living wage be?

Well, if we peg it to inflation like it should be, probably $12.87 (aka the federal poverty level for a family of four).

At the very least, it should be $10.00, which would put the purchasing power of the bottom rung consumer back to 1968 levels. I would go $11.00 as a compromise.

Wow you actually said a number? Most don't so good on you!

11 bucks is way too much to pay a fast food worker in Tulsa, OK. If you had two McDonalds workers get married you'd be over the average household income for the state. Since we can both agree that half the state of Oklahoma isn't poor I'd say that 11 bucks is too high for Oklahoma.

Do you live in Oklahoma?  I do.


Wait, since when do you live in Oklahoma?

/Thought you lived near KC for some reason
 
2013-05-11 09:40:41 PM  

Ishkur: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Wow you actually said a number? Most don't so good on you!

I'm good at what I do, and what I do is argue on Fark.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: 11 bucks is way too much to pay a fast food worker in Tulsa, OK.

Why? Is the fast food in Tulsa any cheaper than it is in, say, San Francisco?

let me check: Varies from store to store, but the cost of a Big Mac meal around the country is:
Avg Price: $6.64(USD)
Max Price: $7.96(USD)
Min Price: $5.83(USD)

So even if we want to use the extreme ends of the wealthiest and poorest joints in the country, we're still only looking at $2.13 difference. And Oklahoma is far from the poorest state in the country (Mississippi is).

Would you prefer to use this as a metric for how Oklahoma pays its fast food employees? As far as I know, they all make Federal minimum wage ($7.25), despite the disparate living standards and relative costs of extra value meals. Do you think that's fair?

So $9.00 would suffice?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: If

Protip: Don't back your arguments with "If"


9 works for me.

And picking a fast food worker was more a how much do we as a society value a fast food worker? Should a person working at McDonalds be able to support a family of 4 on that pay check? Where is the starter job for the kid just leaving highschool? Should every job produce a paycheck large enough to afford a house, car, and leave a little for saving for the kids college fund?
At 9 dollars an hour in Tulsa, OK (where I live) 20k could make those things happen. In Boston? Not so much.
 
2013-05-11 10:09:57 PM  
dericwater:

Outside of a couple of missed points (like the Apple/Microsoft comparison, since both companies are large for different reasons - Apple because it has high profit margins/superb marketing and Microsoft because it developed a standard for industry and set up large barriers to entry to protect itself), it was a good post. You've earned the $5.
 
2013-05-11 10:11:40 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And picking a fast food worker was more a how much do we as a society value a fast food worker? Should a person working at McDonalds be able to support a family of 4 on that pay check? Where is the starter job for the kid just leaving highschool? Should every job produce a paycheck large enough to afford a house, car, and leave a little for saving for the kids college fund?
At 9 dollars an hour in Tulsa, OK (where I live) 20k could make those things happen. In Boston? Not so much.


The cost of living in OK is low, but it's not that low.  And given that the Tea Bagger government is trying to destroy public education in the state, a $9 an hour McDonald's job might be the best many of these kids can hope for.
 
2013-05-11 10:12:57 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Wait, since when do you live in Oklahoma?

/Thought you lived near KC for some reason


My ass lives in Oklahoma but my heart lives in KC.
 
2013-05-11 10:13:56 PM  

Mentat: Mrtraveler01: Wait, since when do you live in Oklahoma?

/Thought you lived near KC for some reason

My ass lives in Oklahoma but my heart lives in KC.


Pooping must be one hell of a commute.
 
2013-05-11 11:50:22 PM  
This has been common knowledge for years.  It's a little hard to believe there are people who are just now figuring it out.
 
2013-05-11 11:55:52 PM  

Bucky Katt: This has been common knowledge for years.  It's a little hard to believe there are people who are just now figuring it out.


Common knowledge is kinda like common sense.

Not what it used to be.
 
2013-05-11 11:58:56 PM  

toomuchwhargarbl: LordJiro:  When too much wealth concentrates at the top, at the expense of everyone below, a collapse is inevitable. And concentrating that wealth at the top is the entire point of "Trickle down".

No one other than weird Rothbard reading types deny this. The only controversy seems to be whether the crash is a feature, or a bug.


A buggy feature?
 
2013-05-12 12:22:46 AM  

Mrbogey: Gunther: Utter bullshiat. Plenty of politicians and supply-side economists were claiming back in 2008-9 that the recession was largely the result of some nebulous lack of "confidence" in the markets, and austerity measures would somehow give them that confidence, leading to a recovery.

[citation needed]


Sure, here's David Cameron claiming austerity will somehow result in a recovery through "confidence" back in 2010. There's hundreds more examples of what Keynesians dismissively call the "confidence fairy" if you bother googling.

Mrbogey: This may come as a shock, because you apparently didn't know this, but GDP includes gov't spending. So your actual argument is literally "If we count gov't spending, spending goes up because the gov't spends more."


The cost of the New Deal as a percentage of GDP is a tiny fraction of the increase in GDP we see in that graph.

Mrbogey: The point of the NEw Deal was to recover the economy to 1929 levels and then allow it to resume and pay for itself afterwards. That literally never happened as the cutbacks in the programs showed there was no pump priming.


I don't even know what you're arguing here; it's so badly worded. It sounds like "the economic recovery didn't directly pay for the stimulus which caused it", which is inherently nonsensical. If you want to know why the national debt stayed high after the country started to recover, there was a little thing called WW2. It was rather expensive.
 
2013-05-12 12:25:52 AM  

Gunther: Sure, here's David Cameron claiming austerity will somehow result in a recovery through "confidence" back in 2010.


Dammit, Fark apparently doesn't like Financial Times links. If you just google "David Cameron austerity confidence" you'll find a whole slew of articles on that article he wrote for the FT.
 
2013-05-12 03:28:07 AM  

Thrag: On an entirely unrelated note, fark really needs to kill these malicious "mobicow" ads on mobile that hijack the browser window and open the app store. They are making mobile fark almost unusable.


Use farkback on the "report error" link at the bottom. Take a screen shot so you can show the mods in a followup email.
 
2013-05-12 03:45:00 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And picking a fast food worker was more a how much do we as a society value a fast food worker?


You tell me. I was simply pegging the wage of a fast food worker against the median value of a Big Mac extra value meal.

But it's not a question of what we value in a fast food worker (by way of education, experience, competence, protocol, etc.) but rather a question of how valuable is a fast food worker to the overall economy.

In an economy of nothing but fast food workers, the fast food worker is king.
 
2013-05-12 03:49:47 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Baryogenesis: The Stealth Hippopotamus: WhyteRaven74: The Stealth Hippopotamus: We need more people pulling the cart than people in the cart.

Well if incomes hadn't been flat the last 30 years that wouldn't be an issue.

If we did increase the size and cost of government in the last 30 years it would be an issue either

Not increasing the size of government for 30 years would be demographically impossible.  We've added close to 100 million people since 1980.

But maybe there's more to government spending than raw numbers...oh look...we're spending a massive 1.6 points more now than in 1981 weighed against the total size of the economy.

We were overbuying on 81 too.


Where are you going with those goal posts?

Well, ok, a 1.6 point drop isn't enough for you.  Let's skip right to the part where you state exactly the ideal level of government spending as a share of GDP.  Then tell us exactly what you're cutting and by how much to get down to that number.
 
2013-05-12 08:01:21 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ishkur: The Stealth Hippopotamus: And pray tell what should federal living wage be?

Well, if we peg it to inflation like it should be, probably $12.87 (aka the federal poverty level for a family of four).

At the very least, it should be $10.00, which would put the purchasing power of the bottom rung consumer back to 1968 levels. I would go $11.00 as a compromise.

Wow you actually said a number? Most don't so good on you!

11 bucks is way too much to pay a fast food worker in Tulsa, OK. If you had two McDonalds workers get married you'd be over the average household income for the state. Since we can both agree that half the state of Oklahoma isn't poor I'd say that 11 bucks is too high for Oklahoma.


They're not?
 
2013-05-12 01:24:56 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Flight of the Conchords June 17, 2007

The Stealth Hippoppotamus
Boobies: (what's this?) 2007-01-31 17:42:13, in thread number 2578047

Never watched the show


It was one of their songs from before the TV show.  Here it is from 2006

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbbxA8a_M_s

You didn't make it up so stop lying.

Everyone should watch their actual HBO show though, it's the best.  Their standup was meh but their show was next level.
 
2013-05-12 03:52:48 PM  

Mrtraveler01: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The same keynesian economics that allowed us to enjoy a "great" depression while the rest of the world simpley went though a depression? Even FDRs financial advisor called a failure. Do you want to go into what happened when Hoover tried it? Care to google "Hoover flag"?

The historical revisionism is strong in this one.


I stopped reading when he misspelled 'simply'.
 
2013-05-12 04:14:46 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: El Pachuco: SnakeLee: The Stealth Hippopotamus is a Flight of the Concords reference.  I am really doubting extreme right wing Tea Partiers are watching that show and especially doubtful that they would name their handle after it.  Y'all need to stop biting on that troll

He's not a troll, he actually believes his posts.  And where'd you get "extreme right wing Tea Party"?  He's a Paul Ryan Ayn Rand pseudo-intellectual, not a knuckle-dragging Tea Party type, probably because he's young enough to have seen some Flight of the Conchords episodes.

Flight of the Conchords June 17, 2007

The Stealth Hippoppotamus
Boobies: (what's this?) 2007-01-31 17:42:13, in thread number 2578047

Never watched the show

Henry Morgenthau the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury during the administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt. He played a major role in designing and financing the New Deal and called it a failure! The man incharge of the program admitted this.

The only thing that saved us was FDR's trust busting that lead to more competition and kept us going until the war.


He also advocated for increasing taxes on the wealthy...
 
2013-05-12 04:32:56 PM  

eggrolls: The Stealth Hippopotamus: FlashHarry: it's actually pretty simple, as far as the US and europe go, supply-side, trickle-down economics has never worked and keynesian economic theory has. they are pushing a failed notion simply because they and their masters want to pay as little tax as possible.

The same keynesian economics that allowed us to enjoy a "great" depression while the rest of the world simpley went though a depression? Even FDRs financial advisor called a failure. Do you want to go into what happened when Hoover tried it? Care to google "Hoover flag"?

I guess the author of the article hasn't been checking the news lately. The people behind The ACA (even one of the co-authors) have admitted it going to cost billions more than projected to get into place and increase insurance premiums by 50-60 percent.

It's ok to want to end private healthcare and install a single payer healthcare system. What's not ok is lying about and trying to it piece by piece. We voted him in! Elections DO consequences. I just wish the White House would be honest with its intentions. But more and more this White House looks like it is having trouble telling the truth.


AThe Stealth Hippopotamus: FlashHarry: it's actually pretty simple, as far as the US and europe go, supply-side, trickle-down economics has never worked and keynesian economic theory has. they are pushing a failed notion simply because they and their masters want to pay as little tax as possible.

The same keynesian economics that allowed us to enjoy a "great" depression while the rest of the world simpley went though a depression? Even FDRs financial advisor called a failure. Do you want to go into what happened when Hoover tried it? Care to google "Hoover flag"?

I guess the author of the article hasn't been checking the news lately. The people behind The ACA (even one of the co-authors) have admitted it going to cost billions more than projected to get into place and increase insurance premiums by 50-60 percent.

It's ok to want to end private healthcare and install a single payer healthcare system. What's not ok is lying about and trying to it piece by piece. We voted him in! Elections DO consequences. I just wish the White House would be honest with its intentions. But more and more this White House looks like it is having trouble telling the truth.

About that New Deal 'failure'...

You do know that that same advisor, Henry Morgenthau Jr. didn't like the New Deal because it didn't go far enough ? Morgenthau wanted a higher tax on the rich to pay off the depression debt & stimulate the economy? To quote: "We have never begun to tax the people in this country the way they should be..... I don't pay what I should. People in my class don't. People who have it should pay."

He's also the man who invented Social Security, and also the man who decided to fund it through a payroll tax, separate and protected from the annual federal budget.

Not exactly the ardent anti-social program economist you hoped he would be, eh?


His fw:fw:fw:fw:fw: email didnt go that far...
 
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