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(New York Magazine)   Paul Ryan and the Republicans don't let things like "facts" and "reality" and "empirical evidence" get in the way of their economic point of view   (nymag.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Republican, empirical evidence, Yuval Levin, Carmen Reinhart, Independent Payment Advisory Board, electronic medical records, Kenneth Rogoff, National Affairs  
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4990 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 May 2013 at 12:26 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-11 01:44:58 PM  

FlashHarry: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I should have added "they tried to use it to get out of the Great Depression". Which it didn't do by the way.

and what, pray tell, did get us out of the great depression? tax cuts and less regulation?


the bootstrap sector.
 
2013-05-11 01:46:15 PM  
Obvious tag appropriate.

/Really, been saying this for years.
 
2013-05-11 01:47:13 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Faith based economics is the most plausible explanation I've heard ta date.



You see the same unquestioned faith applied to a lot of issues. Space-based missile defense, just to name one.

To be fair, you'll undoubtedly find this kind of thinking all over the political spectrum if you look hard enough. (The first one that comes to mind for dirty libs like me is certain kinds of "assault weapons" bans. To my mind, even though I've never even fired a gun myself, the arguments against the ban are logical and sensible, so I'm convinced on this one point even though many of my comrades aren't. I better move on before I accidentally turn this into a gun thread...)

So, uh, anyway, even though anyone's vulnerable to this kind of thinking, I think we see it so much more on the right these days in the U.S. because they've spent the last 30 years purposely crafting Conservativism as a secular faith, and (for now at least) there's no comparable -ism anywhere else on the spectrum.
 
2013-05-11 01:47:38 PM  

heap: FlashHarry: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I should have added "they tried to use it to get out of the Great Depression". Which it didn't do by the way.

and what, pray tell, did get us out of the great depression? tax cuts and less regulation?

the bootstrap sector.


and all those billionaires who single-handedly defeated hitler, tojo and stalin while the goldbricking lower classes begged for handouts and smoked reefer rather than working the factories like they should have!
 
2013-05-11 01:53:08 PM  

Empty Matchbook: Why should today be different from any other day?


Or this topic different from any other?

/ If you can only justify your position by making ad hominem attacks on "The Reality-Based Community," you have lost the argument.
 
2013-05-11 01:53:16 PM  

firefly212: Apologies, Zombie Butter, I did not mean to quite you, I am having some difficulty with my mouse today.


It's cool, been there done that.
 
2013-05-11 01:56:56 PM  
The Stealth Hippopotamus is a Flight of the Concords reference.  I am really doubting extreme right wing Tea Partiers are watching that show and especially doubtful that they would name their handle after it.  Y'all need to stop biting on that troll
 
2013-05-11 01:57:26 PM  
Faith-based economics.
 
2013-05-11 02:00:02 PM  
Mitt Romneys Tax Return

Oh yeah -- something else I wanted to say -- re.: "clinging stubbornly to this interpretation", you'd think a good journalist would be able to nip this faith thing in the bud. When thinkers like this Levin make pronouncements that smell like they started from ideology, they need to be asked something like "What kind of future events, observed phenomena, etc. would cause you to question your propositions, or at least rethink them a little bit?".

It's perfectly honorable to be a polemicist or a hired gun, I guess, if he admits that's what he is. But if he claim he's a scientist, his theories' worth ought to depend on how they actually work in the real world.
 
2013-05-11 02:01:58 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: pueblonative: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Gunther: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The same keynesian economics that allowed us to enjoy a "great" depression while the rest of the world simpley went though a depression?

How was Keynesian economics responsible for the great depression when it was formulated largely in response to it? Did Obama lend Keynes his magical time machine?

Mrbogey: The argument for austerity wasn't that it would stimulate growth.

Utter bullshiat. Plenty of politicians and supply-side economists were claiming back in 2008-9 that the recession was largely the result of some nebulous lack of "confidence" in the markets, and austerity measures would somehow give them that confidence, leading to a recovery.

I never said it caused the Great Depression. I should have added "they tried to use it to get out of the Great Depression". Which it didn't do by the way.

Let me guess, you're going to argue that World War II got us out of depression.  So it wasn't government spending, it was just government spending.

Heh, I love right wing idiots who make that argument.  "The spending works programs didn't bring us out of the Depression, but the spending on military did!  Only military spending can help the economy, all other spending is just wasted!"


There is more to the different economic theories than just governmental spending.

The massive shifts in the unemployment and total labor pool had a massive effect as well
 
2013-05-11 02:06:46 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I never said it caused the Great Depression. I should have added "they tried to use it to get out of the Great Depression". Which it didn't do by the way.


imageshack.us
imageshack.us
imageshack.us

Please stop pretending that you know things.
 
2013-05-11 02:08:17 PM  
What I find alternately amusing / horrifying / absurd is that Paul Ryan, a guy who went to college on his mother's wealth and his father's death benefits from Social Security spent his time reading Ayn Rand in between coughs of dope smoke and became the darling of the "lift yourself up by your bootstraps and be a man" crowd.

It's almost like they really don't care, so long as they have a good narrative in their precious, god-bless-them heads.
 
2013-05-11 02:08:43 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: There is more to the different economic theories than just governmental spending.

The massive shifts in the unemployment and total labor pool had a massive effect as well


Silly troll, the people were employed by the government building war material and being paid to stand around with guns looking scary.  That's government spending at it's finest and what Republicans love the most!
 
2013-05-11 02:08:51 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Satanic_Hamster: pueblonative: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Gunther: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The same keynesian economics that allowed us to enjoy a "great" depression while the rest of the world simpley went though a depression?

How was Keynesian economics responsible for the great depression when it was formulated largely in response to it? Did Obama lend Keynes his magical time machine?

Mrbogey: The argument for austerity wasn't that it would stimulate growth.

Utter bullshiat. Plenty of politicians and supply-side economists were claiming back in 2008-9 that the recession was largely the result of some nebulous lack of "confidence" in the markets, and austerity measures would somehow give them that confidence, leading to a recovery.

I never said it caused the Great Depression. I should have added "they tried to use it to get out of the Great Depression". Which it didn't do by the way.

Let me guess, you're going to argue that World War II got us out of depression.  So it wasn't government spending, it was just government spending.

Heh, I love right wing idiots who make that argument.  "The spending works programs didn't bring us out of the Depression, but the spending on military did!  Only military spending can help the economy, all other spending is just wasted!"

There is more to the different economic theories than just governmental spending.

The massive shifts in the unemployment and total labor pool had a massive effect as well


Love how you're avoiding all those charts being posted. You know, the facts, reality, and empirical evidence. Are they getting in the way of your economic point of view?
 
2013-05-11 02:12:20 PM  
News flash, Republicans are malicious passive-aggressive authoritarian liars who think you're stupid enough to fall for the same con over and over and over and over again. This is absolutely not a repeat from every year since 1929.
 
2013-05-11 02:12:20 PM  
I don't know why I bother to keep following political news anymore. The GOP blatantly lies about everything, obstructs everything for a variety of insincere and contradictory reasons, and calling them out on it doesn't do any good because anyone who needs getting through to either won't believe the data or is out to support their team. This shiat is going to go on and on for years. 

I'm gonna go take a nap, be back in 2024 or something.
 
2013-05-11 02:13:07 PM  

phaseolus: Oh yeah -- something else I wanted to say -- re.: "clinging stubbornly to this interpretation", you'd think a good journalist would be able to nip this faith thing in the bud. When thinkers like this Levin make pronouncements that smell like they started from ideology, they need to be asked something like "What kind of future events, observed phenomena, etc. would cause you to question your propositions, or at least rethink them a little bit?".


Journalists have given up asking hard questions. It's headline news when a reporter like Anderson Cooper or Soledad O'Orien dares to challenge one of our masters.
 
2013-05-11 02:17:45 PM  

FlashHarry: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I should have added "they tried to use it to get out of the Great Depression". Which it didn't do by the way.

and what, pray tell, did get us out of the great depression? tax cuts and less regulation?


A Libertarian will tell you that freedom-based economics got us out, and we were headed out anyway, but the New Deal made it take longer than it should have. It's all explained simply in these twelve links from mises.org that I am about to spam you with.
 
2013-05-11 02:19:45 PM  

toomuchwhargarbl: News flash, Republicans are malicious passive-aggressive authoritarian liars who think

know America is  stupid enough to fall for the same con over and over and over and over again. This is absolutely not a repeat from every year since 1929.
 
2013-05-11 02:24:11 PM  
Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever, and it won't. Like *every* single time its been tried long term (ref: third world, Zimbabwe, etc.) , it WILL blow up at some point.

Article fails. Propaganda. Makes two minor points, and tried to use them to attempt to refute an entire economic strategy.

/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it
 
2013-05-11 02:24:32 PM  

SnakeLee: The Stealth Hippopotamus is a Flight of the Concords reference.  I am really doubting extreme right wing Tea Partiers are watching that show and especially doubtful that they would name their handle after it.  Y'all need to stop biting on that troll


He's not a troll, he actually believes his posts.  And where'd you get "extreme right wing Tea Party"?  He's a Paul Ryan Ayn Rand pseudo-intellectual, not a knuckle-dragging Tea Party type, probably because he's young enough to have seen some Flight of the Conchords episodes.
 
2013-05-11 02:27:48 PM  

mark12A: Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever, and it won't. Like *every* single time its been tried long term (ref: third world, Zimbabwe, etc.) , it WILL blow up at some point.

Article fails. Propaganda. Makes two minor points, and tried to use them to attempt to refute an entire economic strategy.

/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it


it's only been 80 some years.  Any day now. . .
 
2013-05-11 02:30:03 PM  

mark12A: Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever, and it won't. Like *every* single time its been tried long term (ref: third world, Zimbabwe, etc.) , it WILL blow up at some point.

Article fails. Propaganda. Makes two minor points, and tried to use them to attempt to refute an entire economic strategy.

/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it


While trickle-down (under various names) was the system of choice for such wonderful places as "Dark Ages Europe", "Pre-Revolution France", and "Gilded Age America". When too much wealth concentrates at the top, at the expense of everyone below, a collapse is inevitable. And concentrating that wealth at the top is the entire point of "Trickle down".
 
2013-05-11 02:32:11 PM  
mark12A:
/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it

This is another common theme, their Economic wishes are a manifestation of common Conservative wish-fulfillment that the economy irreversibly explode and we revert to feudalism or some other system where they're not powerless nerds defending to the death the system that keeps them powerless and suddenly become avenging gun totin' Ramboesque vigilante killers.
 
2013-05-11 02:33:24 PM  
the civil war was about states rights, fdr caused or extended the depression, evolution is a myth, gays want to eat your soul, global warming is a conspiracy to get grant money, the united nations and the illuminati are after your guns want to force the country into sustainable community FEMA camps, the sitting president of the united states is a foreigner, it will trickle down eventually, no matter what the tax rate is we're always on the right hand side of the laffer curve, the WMDs are in palistinasyriranistan, the polls need unskewed, the market will regulate itself because sniff the invisible glove, the confidence fairy rules all with the exception that threatening default is fiscally sound behavior, teleprompters were invented in 2009 and as a consequence austerity somehow makes sense, and befarkingchrist if i can continue this without wanting to punch myself in the junk for having paid attention to this much stupid that it's readily available in my memory.
 
2013-05-11 02:35:29 PM  
static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com

Call me crazy, but the last time we had that sort of ratio some very bad things happened.
Bonus points... Was your first impression "Woo hoo! We're doing better than the third world banana republic Venezuala!" or the reverse?
 
2013-05-11 02:35:57 PM  
LordJiro:  When too much wealth concentrates at the top, at the expense of everyone below, a collapse is inevitable. And concentrating that wealth at the top is the entire point of "Trickle down".

No one other than weird Rothbard reading types deny this. The only controversy seems to be whether the crash is a feature, or a bug.
 
2013-05-11 02:37:39 PM  

NewportBarGuy: Karac: Whereas trickle-down economics hasn't worked for at least 30 some odd years.

It is so obviously a Feudal economic system. I can't believe how many people they swindle with it.


More like a futile economic system.
 
2013-05-11 02:37:50 PM  

diaphoresis: ya.. cuz Dems are all so honest about their economic bs.. they're both FOS... troll on peeps


You are right, I am going to go study it out.

mark12A: Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever, and it won't. Like *every* single time its been tried long term (ref: third world, Zimbabwe, etc.) , it WILL blow up at some point.

Article fails. Propaganda. Makes two minor points, and tried to use them to attempt to refute an entire economic strategy.

/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it


media.avclub.com
 
2013-05-11 02:43:36 PM  

heap: sniff the invisible glove


The whole thing was funny, but this one - (makes kissing of fingertips gesture) - was exquisite.
 
2013-05-11 02:44:13 PM  

El Pachuco: SnakeLee: The Stealth Hippopotamus is a Flight of the Concords reference.  I am really doubting extreme right wing Tea Partiers are watching that show and especially doubtful that they would name their handle after it.  Y'all need to stop biting on that troll

He's not a troll, he actually believes his posts.  And where'd you get "extreme right wing Tea Party"?  He's a Paul Ryan Ayn Rand pseudo-intellectual, not a knuckle-dragging Tea Party type, probably because he's young enough to have seen some Flight of the Conchords episodes.


Flight of the Conchords June 17, 2007

The Stealth Hippoppotamus
Boobies: (what's this?) 2007-01-31 17:42:13, in thread number 2578047

Never watched the show

Henry Morgenthau the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury during the administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt. He played a major role in designing and financing the New Deal and called it a failure! The man incharge of the program admitted this.

The only thing that saved us was FDR's trust busting that lead to more competition and kept us going until the war.
 
2013-05-11 02:47:10 PM  

mark12A: Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever, and it won't. Like *every* single time its been tried long term (ref: third world, Zimbabwe, etc.) , it WILL blow up at some point.

Article fails. Propaganda. Makes two minor points, and tried to use them to attempt to refute an entire economic strategy.

/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it


So basically what you are saying is that you don't have the slightest farking clue as to what Keynesian ecomonics actally says. Here's a hint, it does not say to continue deficit spending forever.
 
2013-05-11 02:48:15 PM  

maxheck: [static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com image 300x268]

Call me crazy, but the last time we had that sort of ratio some very bad things happened.
Bonus points... Was your first impression "Woo hoo! We're doing better than the third world banana republic Venezuala!" or the reverse?


USA! USA! USA!
 
2013-05-11 02:48:20 PM  

FlashHarry: it's actually pretty simple, as far as the US and europe go, supply-side, trickle-down economics has never worked and keynesian economic theory has. they are pushing a failed notion simply because they and their masters want to pay as little tax as possible.


QE is now being called tricke-down in right-wing circles.  So, Obama loves trickle-down economics and everyone knows trickle-down is bad.  I'm not kidding.
 
2013-05-11 02:48:47 PM  
Thank you to The Stealth Hippopotimus for demonstrating once again how libertaritrons think they can logic their way through history, Praxeology style.
 
2013-05-11 02:49:16 PM  
When questioned further Ryan said, "Imagine an island where there are coconuts, fish and monkeys on pogo sticks...."
 
2013-05-11 02:49:52 PM  

mark12A: Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever, and it won't. Like *every* single time its been tried long term (ref: third world, Zimbabwe, etc.) , it WILL blow up at some point.

Article fails. Propaganda. Makes two minor points, and tried to use them to attempt to refute an entire economic strategy.

/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it


Sounds pretty sweet.  I used to love playing fort when I was 8.
 
2013-05-11 02:50:40 PM  

randomjsa: It's on the internet and more importantly it's being said by a liberal, so it must be true. It's also just what I wanted to be told, so that makes it even more true.


The news of the sharp decrease in growth of healthcare expenditures has been in the news a lot this week. For some reason, some conservative media has avoided the story. It's almost like they don't want to talk about Keynesian economics working successfully in the real world.
 
2013-05-11 02:52:37 PM  

mark12A: Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever, and it won't. Like *every* single time its been tried long term (ref: third world, Zimbabwe, etc.) , it WILL blow up at some point.

Article fails. Propaganda. Makes two minor points, and tried to use them to attempt to refute an entire economic strategy.

/when it blows up, I've got a farm to grow food with, and friends to help me defend it


Funny, since it was Cheney who said deficits don't matter.

Zimbabwe has nothing to do with Keynesian economics.

Keynesian economics has run most of the liberal democracies, including the U.S., and it's come out on top.
 
2013-05-11 02:53:37 PM  
Mitt Romneys Tax Return"

maxheck: [static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com image 300x268]

Call me crazy, but the last time we had that sort of ratio some very bad things happened.
Bonus points... Was your first impression "Woo hoo! We're doing better than the third world banana republic Venezuala!" or the reverse?

USA! USA! USA!


The thing that struck me... That's not a minor difference, that's order-of-magnitude difference.

But hey, the feudal system worked so well!
 
2013-05-11 02:54:15 PM  

toomuchwhargarbl: News flash, Republicans are malicious passive-aggressive authoritarian liars who think you're stupid enough to fall for the same con over and over and over and over again.


That's actually an effective strategy.  We are stupid enough to fall for the same con over and over again.
 
2013-05-11 02:54:41 PM  

toomuchwhargarbl: News flash, Republicans are malicious passive-aggressive authoritarian liars who think you're stupid enough to fall for the same con over and over and over and over again. This is absolutely not a repeat from every year since 1929.




This joke must date back to the nineteen thirties:
The Democrat Hitchhiker

A boy is hitchhiking on a country road. A car stops for him, and the driver asks, "Are you a Republican or a Democrat?"

"Democrat," says the boy, and the car speeds off.

Another car stops, and the driver asks, "Are you a Republican or a Democrat?"

"Democrat," says the boy, and the car speeds off.

This happens two or three times, and the boy decides he's giving the wrong answer. The next car that stops is a convertible driven by a beautiful blonde. "Are you a Republican or a Democrat?" she asks.

"Republican," says the boy, and she lets him in.

But as they're driving along, the wind from the open top begins to push the blonde's skirt higher and higher up her legs. And the boy finds himself becoming aroused.

Finally he can't control himself any longer. "Stop!" he hollers. "Let me out! I've only been a Republican for ten minutes and already I feel like screwing somebody!"
 
2013-05-11 02:55:20 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: El Pachuco: SnakeLee: The Stealth Hippopotamus is a Flight of the Concords reference.  I am really doubting extreme right wing Tea Partiers are watching that show and especially doubtful that they would name their handle after it.  Y'all need to stop biting on that troll

He's not a troll, he actually believes his posts.  And where'd you get "extreme right wing Tea Party"?  He's a Paul Ryan Ayn Rand pseudo-intellectual, not a knuckle-dragging Tea Party type, probably because he's young enough to have seen some Flight of the Conchords episodes.

Flight of the Conchords June 17, 2007

The Stealth Hippoppotamus
Boobies: (what's this?) 2007-01-31 17:42:13, in thread number 2578047

Never watched the show

Henry Morgenthau the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury during the administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt. He played a major role in designing and financing the New Deal and called it a failure! The man incharge of the program admitted this.

The only thing that saved us was FDR's trust busting that lead to more competition and kept us going until the war.


Going off the gold standard. Countries left their depressions in the order they adopted fiat currency. The sooner they did it, the sooner they left.
 
2013-05-11 02:56:11 PM  

Karac: NewportBarGuy: Republicans talking about economics is a lot like an 8-year-old talking about sex. They have no clue what they are talking about.

An 8 year old is at least the product of sex.  So he knew something about it as early as 8 years and 9 months ago.
Whereas trickle-down economics hasn't worked for at least 30 some odd years.


Trickle-down has never worked whenever and wherever it has been implemented, and under whatever different names it used. It used to be called slavery and serfdom.
 
2013-05-11 02:56:15 PM  

Rapmaster2000: FlashHarry: it's actually pretty simple, as far as the US and europe go, supply-side, trickle-down economics has never worked and keynesian economic theory has. they are pushing a failed notion simply because they and their masters want to pay as little tax as possible.

QE is now being called tricke-down in right-wing circles.  So, Obama loves trickle-down economics and everyone knows trickle-down is bad.  I'm not kidding.


So they went from one ignorant description of QE to another.

"Out of the frying pan into another frying pan."
 
2013-05-11 02:56:16 PM  

mark12A: Hold tight to your dreams, Libtards. Keynesian deficit spending CANNOT go on forever,


It isn't supposed to, do you know anything about Keynesian economics other than, "Fox NEWS says it is bad"?
 
2013-05-11 02:56:56 PM  

dericwater: Karac: NewportBarGuy: Republicans talking about economics is a lot like an 8-year-old talking about sex. They have no clue what they are talking about.

An 8 year old is at least the product of sex.  So he knew something about it as early as 8 years and 9 months ago.
Whereas trickle-down economics hasn't worked for at least 30 some odd years.

Trickle-down has never worked whenever and wherever it has been implemented, and under whatever different names it used. It used to be called slavery and serfdom.


I disagree, it is working as intended for those at the top.
 
2013-05-11 02:57:07 PM  
Reality? Your "reality", sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
 
2013-05-11 02:59:53 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: FlashHarry: it's actually pretty simple, as far as the US and europe go, supply-side, trickle-down economics has never worked and keynesian economic theory has. they are pushing a failed notion simply because they and their masters want to pay as little tax as possible.

The same keynesian economics that allowed us to enjoy a "great" depression while the rest of the world simpley went though a depression? Even FDRs financial advisor called a failure. Do you want to go into what happened when Hoover tried it? Care to google "Hoover flag"?

I guess the author of the article hasn't been checking the news lately. The people behind The ACA (even one of the co-authors) have admitted it going to cost billions more than projected to get into place and increase insurance premiums by 50-60 percent.

It's ok to want to end private healthcare and install a single payer healthcare system. What's not ok is lying about and trying to it piece by piece. We voted him in! Elections DO consequences. I just wish the White House would be honest with its intentions. But more and more this White House looks like it is having trouble telling the truth.


No one on the left is particularly happy with the ACA. It was, eventually, a band-aid compromise that basically took all the Heritage Foundation's ideas that went into RomneyCare in Massachusetts and federalized it. The only benefit that Obama's win with the ACA is that it's a foot in the door to make further changes, eventually moving towards a real single-payer system.
 
2013-05-11 03:01:52 PM  
dericwater:
Trickle-down has never worked whenever and wherever it has been implemented, and under whatever different names it used. It used to be called slavery and serfdom.

I for one am legitimately excited to behold the next re-branding effort for the same old bullshiat where corrupt Republicans whine and cry until they're put back in charge of the government where they can continue looting the rest of us six ways from Sunday and daring us to do anything about it.
 
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