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(Some Girl)   Not News: Indie Author rewrites her first novel to fix plot holes and structure based on reviewers feedback. News: Instead of making you buy it again, she's offering it for free to people who have already purchased   (howmanyfrogs.com) divider line 95
    More: Hero, novels, abandonments, structures  
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3482 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 09 May 2013 at 1:31 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-09 11:58:48 AM
1) Write a crappy book
2) Let paying readers serve as editors
3) Profit
 
2013-05-09 12:39:25 PM
This is why with just one or two exceptions, Self-Pub authors are and always will be tier two.
 
2013-05-09 12:40:41 PM

Mangoose: 1) Write a crappy book
2) Let paying readers serve as editors
3) Profit


Hahahaha exactly what I came to say. Her book is just like damn near every video game now that gets released.

All she did was issue a patch.
 
2013-05-09 01:37:27 PM

unlikely: This is why with just one or two exceptions, Self-Pub authors are and always will be tier two.


I just can't believe that self-publishing authors are  serious about either writing or publishing. Both of these tasks are extremely hard work, and require a great deal of dedication to be successful. The skill overlap between the two areas is nil. Were I a serious writer, I'd much rather work with a publisher, because all of the bits that publishers do are boring to me.

//Actually, I will be part of an anthology book. We're working with a publisher. I'm  definitely not a serious writer.
 
2013-05-09 01:39:34 PM

scottydoesntknow: Mangoose: 1) Write a crappy book
2) Let paying readers serve as editors
3) Profit

Hahahaha exactly what I came to say. Her book is just like damn near every video game now that gets released.

All she did was issue a patch.


Came to say this.
 
2013-05-09 01:41:04 PM

t3knomanser: unlikely: This is why with just one or two exceptions, Self-Pub authors are and always will be tier two.

I just can't believe that self-publishing authors are  serious about either writing or publishing. Both of these tasks are extremely hard work, and require a great deal of dedication to be successful. The skill overlap between the two areas is nil. Were I a serious writer, I'd much rather work with a publisher, because all of the bits that publishers do are boring to me.

//Actually, I will be part of an anthology book. We're working with a publisher. I'm  definitely not a serious writer.


The lure of self-pub is great though.  You get 70% of the proceeds from sales instead of the farking tiny amount the publisher offers.  It is a GREAT deal for authors who have already gone the publishing route with success.  They can now really begin to reap the rewards of their work.  For first timers though, it is hardly the road to riches they are envisioning.
 
2013-05-09 01:54:44 PM

t3knomanser: unlikely: This is why with just one or two exceptions, Self-Pub authors are and always will be tier two.

I just can't believe that self-publishing authors are  serious about either writing or publishing. Both of these tasks are extremely hard work, and require a great deal of dedication to be successful. The skill overlap between the two areas is nil. Were I a serious writer, I'd much rather work with a publisher, because all of the bits that publishers do are boring to me.

//Actually, I will be part of an anthology book. We're working with a publisher. I'm  definitely not a serious writer.


I assume that shopping your book to publishers has the same degree of overlap with writing.
 
2013-05-09 01:55:38 PM
Um isn't this what Bioware did with Mass Effect 3?  Like hell anybody is going to give EA the hero tag.
 
2013-05-09 01:56:37 PM

t3knomanser: //Actually, I will be part of an anthology book. We're working with a publisher. I'm definitely not a serious writer.


Cool!

What publisher?

Congratulations!
 
2013-05-09 01:57:36 PM

scottydoesntknow: Mangoose: 1) Write a crappy book
2) Let paying readers serve as editors
3) Profit

Hahahaha exactly what I came to say. Her book is just like damn near every video game now that gets released.

All she did was issue a patch.


Not just related to video games, any software really operates with this model. Good on her for adopting this approach I say.
 
2013-05-09 01:59:12 PM

t3knomanser: unlikely: This is why with just one or two exceptions, Self-Pub authors are and always will be tier two.

I just can't believe that self-publishing authors are  serious about either writing or publishing. Both of these tasks are extremely hard work, and require a great deal of dedication to be successful. The skill overlap between the two areas is nil. Were I a serious writer, I'd much rather work with a publisher, because all of the bits that publishers do are boring to me.

//Actually, I will be part of an anthology book. We're working with a publisher. I'm  definitely not a serious writer.


Speaking as both a self-published and a traditional published author, there's pros and cons for both which all boils down into how much work you want to do for yourself.

If you understand E-Book creation, have lots of friends for critiques and grammar, and are decent at marketing, self-publishing is the way to go since you get more of a cut from distributors. 

If you're lucky and don't mind writing tons of query letters to agents and publishers who couldn't care less about you, traditional publishing is the way to go. You have to play by their rules for things and you get less of a share for your own creation, but all that extra bullshiat is handled by them so it saves you a bit of headache.

Like I do in every fark book thread, here's a link to my latest novel:  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AVRNTEQ
 
2013-05-09 02:07:43 PM

moothemagiccow: I assume that shopping your book to publishers has the same degree of overlap with writing.


That's why there are agents. The authors I know that actually make a living doing  love their agents.

unlikely: What publisher?


I um... actually don't recall. One of my co-authors is handling more of the business-side of it. It's not a technical book, but it's a publisher that usually handles technical subjects.

AdolfOliverPanties: For first timers though, it is hardly the road to riches they are envisioning.


Yeah, I imagine if you have a built-in audience, you can do well. But even when you're getting 70% of the proceeds- how much are you paying your editor? The cover designer? The copy-writer? What's your marketing budget? What sort of vendor management do you need to do to maintain your relationships? Too many self-published authors seem to think having a social networking account is "marketing", and that they'll get great placement on Amazon if only they get enough positive reviews from their fans.

And damn, do so many self-published authors skimp on those other costs. I've seen so many books with covers that were obviously made by a friend in an hour.

What I'd like to see is a collective publishing company, where it's owned by the authors who participate.
 
2013-05-09 02:08:58 PM
This happens ALL THE TIME on Amazon.  I'm completely unsure why this is interesting...
 
2013-05-09 02:14:15 PM

t3knomanser: Yeah, I imagine if you have a built-in audience, you can do well. But even when you're getting 70% of the proceeds- how much are you paying your editor? The cover designer? The copy-writer? What's your marketing budget? What sort of vendor management do you need to do to maintain your relationships? Too many self-published authors seem to think having a social networking account is "marketing", and that they'll get great placement on Amazon if only they get enough positive reviews from their fans.

And damn, do so many self-published authors skimp on those other costs. I've seen so many books with covers that were obviously made by a friend in an hour.

What I'd like to see is a collective publishing company, where it's owned by the authors who participate.


Hi!  Abandon author here, let me recap exactly how much I spent, and how much I gained from this novel:

I spent:

28 days writing it
4 hours of cover design myself
36 hours of figuring out how to convert to mobi and epub
$200 on a book tour by OrangeBerry Book Promotions

I was luckily and actually had another Farker edit it for me in exchange for one of her book designs, so I'll count that as another 3 hours of my time.

I have made, to date on this book roughly $20,000.

That being said, I already had a fairly established fan base since I've been blogging since I was 17.  But I really think it was the $200 investment in the book tour which was targeted to my "romance" fan base that really helped.

All and all, it's been a pretty interesting journey.   I'm actually thinking about taking the money from my second book and investing it in a publishing company to help self-published authors get off the ground.  :)
 
2013-05-09 02:15:33 PM
'Hero' tag?

Really?

Really really?
 
2013-05-09 02:19:04 PM
I have this book on papyrus
 
2013-05-09 02:22:06 PM
Must be nice. Mine is still just waiting for this sort of luck.
 
2013-05-09 02:28:39 PM

ZeroCorpse: Must be nice. Mine is still just waiting for this sort of luck.


http://www.orangeberrybooktours.com/

Seriously, make your own luck.  Pandora is really cool and she can take payment after commission too - so you can pay her out of the book earnings instead of up front.  I wouldn't have had the success I did without her.
 
2013-05-09 02:31:09 PM

t3knomanser: I just can't believe that self-publishing authors are  serious about either writing or publishing. Both of these tasks are extremely hard work, and require a great deal of dedication to be successful. The skill overlap between the two areas is nil. Were I a serious writer, I'd much rather work with a publisher, because all of the bits that publishers do are boring to me.


Replace publishing/publisher with editing/editor, and I'll agree with you.  The best books, whether traditionally or self-published, have a strong editor to make sure a story is strong. Successful authors frequently keep using the same editor, even when they move from publisher to publisher.

The publisher handles the nuts and bolts of getting the book to market, but the author/editor are responsible for how good the content is.
 
2013-05-09 02:35:14 PM

t3knomanser: Yeah, I imagine if you have a built-in audience, you can do well. But even when you're getting 70% of the proceeds- how much are you paying your editor? The cover designer? The copy-writer? What's your marketing budget? What sort of vendor management do you need to do to maintain your relationships? Too many self-published authors seem to think having a social networking account is "marketing", and that they'll get great placement on Amazon if only they get enough positive reviews from their fans.


You can still put out a good quality book.  My real work is in dramatic writing, but a friend made a nice chunk of change publishing a few romance novels, so I took a crack at it under an assumed name.  It was 1$ per thousand words for the editor my friend was hooked up through her publishing house (before she went the self-pub route) and she also introduced me to her cover artist (also met through her publisher).

I was charged $59 for the editing but paid $70 because I liked the work and want to be high on her to-do list if I write another book.  I was charged about $85 for the cover.  It would've been higher, but the designer provided a link to the image collection she works with and I found all the desired elements myself - she just had to pull the pieces together.  She did such a great job (in only a few days) I paid about $100.

I've also done two fiverr marketing campaigns, one with an add-on.

That's about $200 bucks total.  I've received from Amazon about $560 in royalties so far.  As this isn't my first or second main source of income and I enjoy the work, this is a nice payout for me.  I bought a new laptop with the net plus about $40 bucks which will probably come out of the next royalty payment.  I still haven't looked into Nook publishing.

Here's what I've learned:  Some genres sell themselves.  I think my nice cover, tight blurb, and low cost (3 bucks, because that's about what I figure it's worth as it was my first time in a new field) contributed to a TON of upfront sales.  When those dropped off I did a free promotional weekend and got to see myself second on the free book bestseller list in my genre, right behind Ocsar Wilde.  That was fun for me and the free days resulted in more reviews, which resulted in more sales, though still less than the original few weeks.

Per my friend's experience, if I write another book in this genre and publish under the same name (which I plan to, perhaps once a year if 'real writing' and work allows), I can look forward to a sales bump on the first book as well as a hopefully comparable experience with the second.

tl:dr:  If you want a lot of money, get a job.  If you want some extra money for sitting in your pjs at your computer and being creative, self-publishing isn't a bad way to go.
 
2013-05-09 02:35:51 PM

Mangoose: 1) Write a crappy book
2) Let paying readers serve as editors
3) Profit


The EA guide to game releases.
 
2013-05-09 02:37:59 PM
Isn't that already an automatic feature with some ebook publishers, like Smashwords?
 
2013-05-09 02:41:19 PM

The Crepes of Wrath: Replace publishing/publisher with editing/editor, and I'll agree with you.


Editing is a completely different topic. Publishing is the act of getting the book out to market, and I just don't have the impression that self-published authors are serious about this (and I'm being a little more candid here on the topic than I normally would, because I have lots of friends who are self-published who believe that they're very serious, even though they're wrong). Now, you have some exceptions, like <b>skillbride</b>, who has made made $20k in 18 months or so, which isn't bad for a bottom-tier author at a traditional publishing house, and is pretty great for a self-published author. She also has shown a little more marketing effort by arranging an actual book tour, which doesn't hurt,  and isn't relying on ebook sales (although I'll guess that's been the biggest income driver).

But since we're discussing editors, there's another thing that drives me up the wall: too many writers, both amatuer and professional, believe that the story is their vision and that editors only dilute that vision. Books, like any other serious undertaking, are collaborative efforts. I  love editors who can really rip apart the moving parts of my stories and put them back together. I also love doing editing (although I'm sloppy with the technical aspects- I'm much better at ripping out the weak ideas and grafting in stronger ones).
 
2013-05-09 02:44:23 PM

K.B.O. Winston: I still haven't looked into Nook publishing.


I have a nook - so I've published mine on there - but I make WAY more on Amazon than I do on my nook so I was thinking about doing KDP select for the second novel.  (The theory being they will download it for free, and then buy the first one.)

What were your thoughts on it?  I got to number 5 on my genre without it so I didn't know if the lost royalties would be worth it.
 
2013-05-09 02:52:15 PM
My wife has published over 50 novels and is migrating away from the big publishers.
Her last book did quite well and we're thinking whether her brand is big enough to go solo.
 
2013-05-09 02:59:37 PM

skilbride: K.B.O. Winston: I still haven't looked into Nook publishing.

I have a nook - so I've published mine on there - but I make WAY more on Amazon than I do on my nook so I was thinking about doing KDP select for the second novel.  (The theory being they will download it for free, and then buy the first one.)

What were your thoughts on it?  I got to number 5 on my genre without it so I didn't know if the lost royalties would be worth it.


KDP select was good for me.  I wasn't planning on republishing again via another distributor for a bit, so it was no loss.  You mention free downloads, but remember Amazon does pay royalties for the 'borrowed' books.  They set it at a different amount per month, but it's usually about 2$ (it's supposed to be a slice of the Prime profits - like how musicians get paid for download-per-month sites such as emusic).

It may be a smaller royalty amount but you will get paid (unless you run a 'free for X days' promotion, which KDP allows for).
 
2013-05-09 03:01:01 PM
cdn5.mixrmedia.com
 
2013-05-09 03:02:49 PM

scottydoesntknow: All she did was issue a patch.


To give her a little credit, I'm sure the "fixes" she made weren't like "Ok, so Raul doesn't kill Giovanni with sword from a distance of 3 kilometers away" and other stupid sh*t you see in buggy video games.
 
2013-05-09 03:06:21 PM

Killer Cars: scottydoesntknow: All she did was issue a patch.

To give her a little credit, I'm sure the "fixes" she made weren't like "Ok, so Raul doesn't kill Giovanni with sword from a distance of 3 kilometers away" and other stupid sh*t you see in buggy video games.


Yeah, but I'm pretty sure the "falls through the floor" bug is still there.
 
2013-05-09 03:10:50 PM
Not news: It still sucks
 
2013-05-09 03:13:45 PM

t3knomanser: moothemagiccow: I assume that shopping your book to publishers has the same degree of overlap with writing.

That's why there are agents. The authors I know that actually make a living doing  love their agents.

unlikely: What publisher?

I um... actually don't recall. One of my co-authors is handling more of the business-side of it. It's not a technical book, but it's a publisher that usually handles technical subjects.

AdolfOliverPanties: For first timers though, it is hardly the road to riches they are envisioning.

Yeah, I imagine if you have a built-in audience, you can do well. But even when you're getting 70% of the proceeds- how much are you paying your editor? The cover designer? The copy-writer? What's your marketing budget? What sort of vendor management do you need to do to maintain your relationships? Too many self-published authors seem to think having a social networking account is "marketing", and that they'll get great placement on Amazon if only they get enough positive reviews from their fans.

And damn, do so many self-published authors skimp on those other costs. I've seen so many books with covers that were obviously made by a friend in an hour.

What I'd like to see is a collective publishing company, where it's owned by the authors who participate.


Let's just assume that amazon (or whatever vanity press) is advertising to these writers while agents, publishers, and editors are not.

The writers don't realize the work involved because amazon is showing its handful of success stories and the writers are assuming that this is the complete package. These are the first people who appear to give a fark about their work. They're also willing to list it in their megapopular store. It sounds pretty good when you put it like that, but then of course they get your $100 (or whatever) and nothing happens.
 
2013-05-09 03:14:04 PM

K.B.O. Winston: KDP select was good for me.  I wasn't planning on republishing again via another distributor for a bit, so it was no loss.  You mention free downloads, but remember Amazon does pay royalties for the 'borrowed' books.  They set it at a different amount per month, but it's usually about 2$ (it's supposed to be a slice of the Prime profits - like how musicians get paid for download-per-month sites such as emusic).

It may be a smaller royalty amount but you will get paid (unless you run a 'free for X days' promotion, which KDP allows for).


Interesting - yeah the free for x days was what I was looking for.  The one thing I hate about amazon is the pricing structure.  I can't put it on "sale" for a couple days without changing it like it was a new version which can get frustrating.  :(   So I was thinking about doing a gorilla campaign for launch day, making it free for that day so it topped the charts, then hoping it boosted the sales of the first one and people bought it after.
 
2013-05-09 03:19:14 PM
PS:  While I'm in here - I have a children's story complete that I need an illustrator for.  Does anyone want to do this and go halfsies with me?  You do the artwork, I'll do all the promotion and you get half the proceeds?
 
2013-05-09 03:26:21 PM

moothemagiccow: The writers don't realize the work involved because amazon is showing its handful of success stories and the writers are assuming that this is the complete package. These are the first people who appear to give a fark about their work. They're also willing to list it in their megapopular store. It sounds pretty good when you put it like that, but then of course they get your $100 (or whatever) and nothing happens.


How much money do you think it costs to self-publish on Amazon?

/hint: it's starts with 0
 
2013-05-09 03:38:03 PM

Dhusk: Isn't that already an automatic feature with some ebook publishers, like Smashwords?


Yes, all eBook publishers allow for revisions. It was only notable recently when the latest Nook program did not allow revisions
 
2013-05-09 03:41:54 PM
She writes that she took a "large hiatus." WTF? You mean a LONG hiatus? No wonder you had to rewrite your damn book. Hack.
 
2013-05-09 03:42:56 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: scottydoesntknow: Mangoose: 1) Write a crappy book
2) Let paying readers serve as editors
3) Profit

Hahahaha exactly what I came to say. Her book is just like damn near every video game now that gets released.

All she did was issue a patch.

Not just related to video games, any software really operates with this model. Good on her for adopting this approach I say.


Yes, good on her for not actually proofing her story. Good on developers of software releasing buggy messes to fix for later on because they need cash now.

It's a horrible approach that should be done away with. If you want me to test your game, then sell it cheaper since I'm now doing some of the work you should've been doing all along. If you want me to proofread your book for you, sell it for cheaper. When it's all done then release a full-price version. That way it rewards the people who helped and delivers a final product at full-price for everyone else.
 
2013-05-09 03:43:28 PM
SPOILER: The book still sucks.


/Have by no means read it, read plenty of bad books. There's no rehabbing a bad writer.
 
2013-05-09 03:46:32 PM
I took a glance at KDP for a youth-oriented science/experimenter book and I thought their download charges for the 70% route were a bit steep.  Since I haven't delved into making documents Kindle-ready, I don't have a feel for how big one might be that is filled with illustrations and other graphics.  Any hints out there?

I could just not be greedy and go for 35%, but I want the book to be affordable and still make enough change to pay for all the explosives science materials I've gone through.
 
2013-05-09 03:49:54 PM

scottydoesntknow: Crotchrocket Slim: scottydoesntknow: Mangoose: 1) Write a crappy book
2) Let paying readers serve as editors
3) Profit

Hahahaha exactly what I came to say. Her book is just like damn near every video game now that gets released.

All she did was issue a patch.

Not just related to video games, any software really operates with this model. Good on her for adopting this approach I say.

Yes, good on her for not actually proofing her story. Good on developers of software releasing buggy messes to fix for later on because they need cash now.

It's a horrible approach that should be done away with.


Tell that to the people who keep lining up to buy games on Day 1, then maybe game makers will listen.
 
2013-05-09 04:08:40 PM
VALIDATE ME PLEASE!
Look how I, the author, wrote this book, but it sucked, so I, the author, rewrote it and it still sucks, but ... VALIDATE ME!
 
2013-05-09 04:09:48 PM

K.B.O. Winston: moothemagiccow: The writers don't realize the work involved because amazon is showing its handful of success stories and the writers are assuming that this is the complete package. These are the first people who appear to give a fark about their work. They're also willing to list it in their megapopular store. It sounds pretty good when you put it like that, but then of course they get your $100 (or whatever) and nothing happens.

How much money do you think it costs to self-publish on Amazon?

/hint: it's starts with 0


Doesn't that cement the point? They want nothing but points and they advertise to writers. It certainly sounds better than the slog of finding an agent, editor and publisher. Too bad it's not.
 
2013-05-09 04:12:55 PM
So, should we have Paul McCartney go back and rewrite his songs too?  Lord knows there have been lots of critics, even of his good stuff from the 1970s.
 
2013-05-09 04:16:58 PM

moothemagiccow: K.B.O. Winston: moothemagiccow: The writers don't realize the work involved because amazon is showing its handful of success stories and the writers are assuming that this is the complete package. These are the first people who appear to give a fark about their work. They're also willing to list it in their megapopular store. It sounds pretty good when you put it like that, but then of course they get your $100 (or whatever) and nothing happens.

How much money do you think it costs to self-publish on Amazon?

/hint: it's starts with 0

Doesn't that cement the point? They want nothing but points and they advertise to writers. It certainly sounds better than the slog of finding an agent, editor and publisher. Too bad it's not.


I was referring to your comment "... then they get your $100 or whatever..."  You might be thinking of BookBaby or another such pay service.  On Amazon, you pay no money upfront for publishing.  They make money when you sell copies of your book, not before.

In some cases, yes, it is better than 'the slog of finding an agent, editor and publisher.'  For people looking not for a career but a way to make money off a hobby, it's roughly the same as selling on Etsy or Ebay.
 
2013-05-09 04:17:58 PM

skilbride: ZeroCorpse: Must be nice. Mine is still just waiting for this sort of luck.

http://www.orangeberrybooktours.com/

Seriously, make your own luck.  Pandora is really cool and she can take payment after commission too - so you can pay her out of the book earnings instead of up front.  I wouldn't have had the success I did without her.


Thanks. I really do appreciate the push in that direction!
 
2013-05-09 04:31:43 PM

RatOmeter: I took a glance at KDP for a youth-oriented science/experimenter book and I thought their download charges for the 70% route were a bit steep.  Since I haven't delved into making documents Kindle-ready, I don't have a feel for how big one might be that is filled with illustrations and other graphics.  Any hints out there?

I could just not be greedy and go for 35%, but I want the book to be affordable and still make enough change to pay for all the explosives science materials I've gone through.


Amazon just released a Kindle comic book creator... thingie.  I haven't looked at it, but I imagine it's image-file friendly.  You might want to check it out.
 
2013-05-09 04:50:09 PM
She shouldn't be a writer.
 
2013-05-09 05:10:17 PM
Hero? Really?

Too speechless to be snide.

So instead, here are my books:

www.jericlaing.com
 
2013-05-09 05:15:09 PM
Your blog sucks. I'm sure your book is of equal quality.
 
2013-05-09 05:18:59 PM
Harass your friends into proofreading for free like the rest of us.
 
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