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(Reuters)   Consumer Reports rates the Tesla Model S a 99/100, tied for the highest score they've ever given. Hey, gas companies, can you see the signs?   (reuters.com) divider line 37
    More: Cool, Model S, Consumer Reports, Fisker Karma, plug-in hybrids, luxury vehicles, 6.0, Porsche Panamera, Back to the Future  
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4536 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 May 2013 at 11:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-05-09 11:44:12 AM
5 votes:

NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


You need a new talking point. Tesla now has an unlimited, "no fault" battery warranty. Even if an owner deliberately trys to destroy or abuse the battery, they'll replace it for free.
2013-05-09 12:45:49 PM
3 votes:
NightOwl2255:  Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel.

This is the car we're discussing here.

images.thecarconnection.com

This is the car your it-allegedly-happened-one-time-in-the-entire-model-run story was about:

images.thetruthaboutcars.com

Different car, different system, different era, and different warranty.  You might as well talk about how Ford Pinto fuel tanks exploded on contact as proof that the Ford Focus is a firetrap.
2013-05-09 11:32:10 AM
3 votes:
Even if you can "fill-up" at a supercharger station, who has an entire hour to refuel? I can fuel up my vehicle in 5 minutes and be back on the road. It's always seemed to me that the way to make the EV feasible is to have battery swap out stations. Pull in with a nearly depleted battery and the station attendant swaps it out for a fresh one in under 10 minutes.  The station recharges the used batteries for later swaps.
2013-05-09 11:05:08 AM
3 votes:

Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options


Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 www.teslamotors.com

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.
2013-05-09 10:40:23 AM
3 votes:
Don't worry. They'll use all those politicians they own to stifle the technology with regulations and all sorts of bullshiat while lobbying for billions more in welfare. I mean subsidies.
2013-05-09 02:50:40 PM
2 votes:
tl;dr car is awesome, range excellent, charge time fast, luxury car's existence today makes affordable car possible tomorrow

************

I drive the car, and I love it. There are a few misunderstandings in this thread.

First, if you have the High Powered Wall Connector for your garage, and the twin chargers, you can do a full charge (0 range to 285 rated) in about 3.5 hours. For typical daily use... figure 50 miles... you can fully recharge in under an hour.

I plug the car in at night. In the morning, full charge. Every day.

I routinely drive 75-80, and my effective range on a standard (90% capacity) charge is about 175 miles. Using AC has almost zero impact. Curiously, it's the heat that reduces your range the most. I'm in SoCal, so that's usually not an issue. And the seat warmers can keep you very warm without any significant impact on your range.

The "you can brick your battery!" thing is baloney. As many have pointed out, the car won't let you do that anymore. And even if you somehow managed to do it anyway, they'll replace the battery for you free of charge. As far as I know, there are zero examples of this actually happening in the wild with a Tesla Model S.

This is a great car. Obviously it's not for everyone. It's very expensive. Not sure why this generates anger for Tesla, but car lust for BMW, Audi, Bentley, etc. Anger about the politics of it all? Look, I don't care about saving the planet. I just like driving a great car. And I think Tesla is running their company extremely well. They're paying back their loan, they're profitable at long last, and I believe they are the next great American business success story.

There will come a day soon where Tesla manufactures a great electric car in the 30-50K price range. Tesla can't get there without being profitable first, and proving the technology. They've done both with the Model S.
2013-05-09 12:53:49 PM
2 votes:

Silly_Sot: If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.

Do the same for all other forms of automobile and energy, too.

Cut them all off. If we are a capitalist country, then let us practice capitalism--including capitalism for rich people.


Exactly. But we aren't a capitalist country. Haven't been one for 200+ years (when the first regulations started creeping in). Our political-economy is, currently, a mixed economy sub-form of fascism (private means of production w/ state control/oversight) that could be called "democratic interest-group corporate socialism." It favors bigger business interests over smaller ones since the bigger ones have greater lobbying access and bribery abilities.
2013-05-09 12:11:14 PM
2 votes:

Silly_Sot: If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.


The one federal government *loan* they got is being repaid, and repaid early - considering it's a *loan,* taxpayers are going to be repaid, with interest.

As for the subsidies, the tax credit currently goes to the *buyers* of any electric vehicle, regardless of brand (I can't speak to any subsudies the company may have received from the state of Cali).

I'll be curious what people will attempt to biatch about when Tesla repays their loan in full. They've already made what most consider to be the best automobile ever built, with the best warranty and depreciation guarantee ever seen for a car - and it just happens to be electric & built entirely by Californians.
2013-05-09 12:00:02 PM
2 votes:
If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.

Do the same for all other forms of automobile and energy, too.

Cut them all off. If we are a capitalist country, then let us practice capitalism--including capitalism for rich people.
2013-05-09 10:53:57 AM
2 votes:

Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options, and they actually take less than an hour to charge at the (free) roadside Tesla "supercharge" stations that are popping up all over the place


If by "all over the place" you mean 9 (almost all in one state) then yeah.
i939.photobucket.com
2013-05-09 10:32:29 AM
2 votes:
Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.
2013-05-10 03:38:19 PM
1 votes:

Mean Daddy: Another gubmint sponsored green technology bankruptcy in 5,4,3,2,1... but,but this time it's different.  Consumer Reports said so.


Go short some Tesla stock.
2013-05-10 03:14:37 PM
1 votes:
Up almost another 10% since the opening bell rang.

I wonder if this thread's chief naysayer got that short order placed? ;)
2013-05-10 11:42:53 AM
1 votes:
I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  I think a lot of folks have been going pretty hard on  NightOwl2255 (and with good reason).  Not because I think he's right or has a good point to make, but because he's allowed you guys ample opportunity to dispell a lot of fictions about Electric Vehicles that I'd still had in my head (and a few I haven't).  Because of this, it's pretty likely that, when I'm done with my Civic (in a couple years), my next car will be an EV (Either the Fit EV or Nissan Leaf, if they haven't come out with a Civic EV by then)

I plan on always living close to where I work, and even if the battery and charging station tech doesn't solve the range issue (not a big one for me), I can take the money I save on not filling up on gas to rent a car for long hauls.  The Teslas are out of my price range, but the Nissan Leaf should be fine for my commutes and starts at under $22k; not too much more than a Civic Sedan.

From what I've read here (and in looking up information to verify claims), I'm getting the feeling that EV's are going to really start taking off soon, especially once the charging station infrastructure is in place (it took a good long while to get where we are with gas stations everywhere; originally, you'd be lucky to have a gas station in a major city, let alone in every town of 500 people).  And with charging stations using solar to power them, it will also push along solar technology to help lighten the load for the oil and natural gas plants.

It seems like, if this tech takes off, everyone wins except the oil companies.  So, I have to stand behind it.
2013-05-09 05:35:13 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?


Finding places to charge aren't all that difficult - the car's Nav system automatically pulls in new public charging stations every week or so (it actually just added another 39 charge points within 20 miles of my office this morning). Interestingly, there's becoming so many level 2 charge points, it's hard to make out the level 3 (quick charge) points.

fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net
You can see one quick charge point poking out towards the bottom of Tacoma (it looks more like a gas pump with a plug). Had you taken a look at the link of the West Coast Green Highway, you'd see that WA, OR and CA are putting quick chargers into major gas stations or rest stops, about every 30 miles, from the Canadian to the Mexican borders. Washington and Oregon have decided to go one step further and put fast chargers about every 50 miles along all the highways within the states. Most of those are now operational. And, at least for the next year - they're completely free.

At least for now, I have a quick charge range of ~1,400 miles north/south, and about 300 miles east/west for free.

/my car only shows 83 mile range because it's not fully charged - that's about 85% charged.
2013-05-09 04:59:27 PM
1 votes:

Thrag: Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: Yeah, we're all idiots.

Here's an idea.  Why don't you just go short TSLA stock if you are so goddamn sure that they suck?

To be fair, there may be a very short term shorting opportunity as the price will no doubt suffer a correction soon if not tomorrow. It would be an incredibly risky move to try it.


I wouldn't be so sure of a correction.  There are still a ton of people in the market who shorted at $25.  If a bunch of them decide that they want to cut their losses before Elon brings the hammer down on them with the supercharger announcement (coming within a week), it could go up even farther in the next couple of days.  Elon has publicly said that he's going to make sure that the shorters lose their shirts.
2013-05-09 04:32:26 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: You make a good point. All 4 cars you have now would make that 400 mile trip, no problem (I assume they are gas drinkers and are not junk). The problem is, your $80k Tesla (or any electric car), simply can't in the same manner as a Honda Accord. A car that can't go a few hundred miles is a limited car.


Well, my 20mpg Toyota Tacoma only gets about 325 miles per tank - so it wouldn't make 400 miles without a refil (assuming it was full to start out with). Does that make it a limited vehicle?

Actually, I'm thinking of doing a 283 mile trip in my Leaf in the coming weeks (Seattle WA to Eugene, OR). It ought to take 3, maybe 4 quick charges (@ 20 minutes each). In all practicality, I'll drive for 80-90 minutes, take a 15 minute piss & soda break, and do that 3 times. So for 4 1/2 hours of driving, I'll take 60-80 minutes worth of breaks. Not as fast as I could do it in my truck, and about the same time as I could do it on my motorcycle (which only has a 2.5 gallon tank and required a refill every 100 miles). However to drive that far in my truck, I'd use 20 gallons of gas. Is an extra hour worth it to me to save $55 in fuel each way? You bet your ass it is.

Luckily for me, there are about 4-5 dozen, operational, 20-minute "quick" chargers in WA and OR now.

Meanwhile, people like you will keep bleating on how it's impossible to do roadtrips in electric cars with only 75 a mile range.
2013-05-09 04:18:41 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: Thrag: While internet idiots ignorantly naysay, TSLA posted 1Q results that beat EPS estimates by 300% (.04 average analyst expectation, .12 actual) leading the stock to a one day gain of over 24%.

/wish I had taken a larger position

Tesla reported its first profit in 10 years on May 8, 2013 and the market celebrated by propelling the stock price by 24% in after-hours trading. It posted a GAAP profit of $11 million, but this included a one-time DOE stock warrant profit of $10.7 million,

Ten years to turn a tiny, tiny profit (without the government help). What's the burn rate been for the last 10 years? Yeah, we're all idiots.


No, in this thread it is really just you who is the idiot. Loudly proclaiming your ignorance about business by thinking that a new technology startup taking years to turn a profit is somehow unusual or bad isn't exactly helping you. I've made a 60% gain in less than a month, you've made a fool of yourself. But please, continue.
2013-05-09 03:50:19 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: Parkanzky: For instance, my wife and I have four cars. A Tesla S would be a neat replacement for one of them and would work really well for us on our ~50 mile round-trip commute and even trips to neighboring cities to visit friends and family. If we needed to suddently make a 400 mile drive we wouldn't be SOL, we'd just be driving a different car.

You make a good point. All 4 cars you have now would make that 400 mile trip, no problem (I assume they are gas drinkers and are not junk). The problem is, your $80k Tesla (or any electric car), simply can't in the same manner as a Honda Accord. A car that can't go a few hundred miles is a limited car.


The range limitation does not make it junk.  The automotive press, the satisfied owners and the huge sales success are plenty of evidence of that.  It just makes it unsuitable in that role.  Is there something wrong with that?  Is a Ferrari 458 junk because it can't haul mulch home for the flower beds or tow your boat?  Buy what suits your purpose.  For many people, a Tesla is perfectly suited for commuting.
2013-05-09 03:06:59 PM
1 votes:
I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.
2013-05-09 03:02:59 PM
1 votes:
Hurr durr. Something new ... must attack it!!!!

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
- Isaac  Asimov
2013-05-09 02:04:37 PM
1 votes:

snowshovel: NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.

To be fair, if you are buying an $80K car, you are probably flying on the cross country trip. If you bought a Tesla, you aren't hauling your dorm room back home at the end of the school year in one.


Elon Musk's cryptic tweet a couple hours ago . . . "There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged throughout the country faster than you could fill a gas tank."

I'm thinking Tesla battery swaps. That would make sense, since their new warranty covers everything involving the battery.
2013-05-09 01:36:13 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.


See, now you're really not making any sense. As someone who drives an EV everyday (and as you can see in that graph), electric cars friggen love traffic. Between the reduced wind resistance and the regnerative braking, you easily see range double. I'll often see a boost to ~125 mile range in my LEAF while in traffic, even though it's rated for 75 miles.

Also, the 12v loads (lights, radio, etc) do almost nothing to range. We're talking 0.1% sort of change here.
2013-05-09 01:29:17 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: Now have it. It's a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on. And once you travel that 150 miles you are SOL for hours while it recharges. That's if you can find somewhere to recharge. Most people will make a 300 mile car trip in their life. As a commuter (second car) car, it's the tops.


Motortrend did 285 miles from LA/Vegas, in 101 degree heat, with the A/C on and traveling at 65 mph. They did three different 250+ mile interstate trips over mountain passes, using all different methods, and made it every time.
2013-05-09 12:51:16 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Whose ass did you pull that out of?

Damn, you have some issues. You make silly statements like Tesla charging stations being "all over the place when in fact, they are in in two states only.

Now, as for my ass. In the case of a Tesla, you apparently can't just do a deep and loving recharge: no battery version of the dent wizard. When the battery bricks, or fully discharges, you replace the battery pack at a cost of around $40,000 ($32,000 plus labor and taxes). It's not covered by the Tesla warranty or car insurance. You can buy a $12,000 replacement policy that would cover a worn out battery but not a dead-from-total-discharge battery while the car is under warranty.
This was from Feb 2012. Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel.


The Roadster is not a Model S.

Also from February 2012

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57384571-76/tesla-you-cant-brick-m od el-s-batteries/

"Model S batteries also have the ability to protect themselves as they approach very low charge levels by going into a 'deep sleep' mode that lowers the loss even further. A Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge. At that point the car can still sit for many months. Of course you can drive a Model S to 0 percent charge, but even in that circumstance, if you plug it in within 30 days, the battery will recover normally," Tesla said on its Web site today.
2013-05-09 12:43:54 PM
1 votes:

J. Frank Parnell: NightOwl2255: Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?

Yes.


So should Exxon, but here we are..
2013-05-09 12:43:36 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.


So let me get this straight, you paid 100K for a car and can't afford to buy airline tickets to get across the country?
2013-05-09 12:41:22 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: At what point is its feet off the ground? According to one Farker, Tesla S is the best car ever produced. Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?


Actually, it's Consumer Reports that is saying that - which is the linked article and headline of this thread . . .

And they are standing on their own now. They're repaying their debt to the taxpayer 2x's as fast as they're contractually obligated and making a profit for shareholders.
2013-05-09 12:33:40 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: This was from Feb 2012. Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel


Speculative FUD article from before the Model S even came out.  It is revealing how strongly you latched onto that article but have not looked into the issue ever since.
2013-05-09 12:24:36 PM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: Without sucking the government teat (not the only one, of course) Tesla would not stand a chance. Well, they would have a lot harder row to hoe.


Wow. Private Sector Stooges really want America to Fail.

Innovation often requires Gov. assistance to get its feet off the ground, see: Railroads, Mail Service, Telephony, Internet,  Tons of Military and NASA applications, Hospitals, etc.

Remove Gov. from supporting business and we'll get Somalia.

The Gov. TEAT should not be reserved for;  Big Oil, Big Food, Big Pharma, and GE/Chrysler. Despite the fact that each of the BIG listed want to squash any other Gov. funded initiatives that might eventually compete with them.
2013-05-09 11:58:08 AM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: Calm down. I could not care less about Tesla. I was just repeating a story, that happens

used  to be true.

What was true then is not true now. The battery is under warranty for all Tesla cars (retroactively) and it doesn't cost anything for owners to have replaced. And as R.A. Danny pointed out, they wireless delivered a firmware update last year that doesn't allow the battery to go completely dead (unless it's unplugged for over a year).

So essentially, everything you stated is now wrong.
2013-05-09 11:57:43 AM
1 votes:

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

You need a new talking point. Tesla now has an unlimited, "no fault" battery warranty. Even if an owner deliberately trys to destroy or abuse the battery, they'll replace it for free.

Calm down. I could not care less about Tesla. I was just repeating a story, that happens to be true.


Uh, he seems pretty calm to me bro.  You're the one with multiple posts trying to paint Tesla as a piece of shiat.
2013-05-09 11:34:10 AM
1 votes:
Comrade Reports never met a hybrid or cheap car (non-American, of course) they didn't love.
2013-05-09 11:24:54 AM
1 votes:

unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?


just like a regular car, you mean?
2013-05-09 10:55:33 AM
1 votes:

Aarontology: Don't worry. They'll use all those politicians they own to stifle the technology with regulations and all sorts of bullshiat while lobbying for billions more in welfare. I mean subsidies.


Tesla did receive a small part of its initial capital in an interest-bearing  loan from the Department of Energy--which it's paying back on schedule out of corporate profits, under a program set up by the Bush administration. Otherwise, it's completely privately capitalized. This isn't Fiskar. It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.
2013-05-09 10:44:12 AM
1 votes:

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options, and they actually take less than an hour to charge at the (free) roadside Tesla "supercharge" stations that are popping up all over the place, or they'll recharge in your garage overnight at the rate of about 30 miles of range per hour.  They're perfectly useful for everything but cross-country road trips, and even for that if you use the supercharge stations.

I have two friends who have them, and I've driven both their cars. I have to say, though, that the 99/100 score is wrong. I would rate it 100/100. They're the most amazing cars I've driven, and so fast that it's surreal.  I want one, and I'll probably get one in the not-too-distant future.
2013-05-09 10:40:58 AM
1 votes:

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


But good for the early adopters - people who buy things like this are helping to pay for the R&D that will make practical vehicles for the rest of us down the road.
 
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