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(Reuters)   Consumer Reports rates the Tesla Model S a 99/100, tied for the highest score they've ever given. Hey, gas companies, can you see the signs?   (reuters.com) divider line 336
    More: Cool, Model S, Consumer Reports, Fisker Karma, plug-in hybrids, luxury vehicles, 6.0, Porsche Panamera, Back to the Future  
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4536 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 May 2013 at 11:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-09 07:19:10 PM

NightOwl2255: UnspokenVoice: So it is no longer true as it is now covered under warranty. Got it.

But was true. Got it.

UnspokenVoice: No, you posted an image that showed the charging stations in three states. You later claimed that they were only in three states. Coupled with your earlier claim:

Yes, I posted a big ol picture showing they were in 3 states, not "all over the place" as the Farker claimed (why don't you take issue with his dishonesty?)  and I said they were in two. Does that sound like the action of someone that is willful lying? Posting a large picture? Damn, you make no sense.

UnspokenVoice: We have established a pattern of dishonesty which is actually my subject and is the entirety of my point.

In your mind, maybe. Again, the Farker claimed it's range was 250-300 miles. Sure, if you drive 55, no AC, flat land. I pointed out, correctly, that in the real world, it's range is a lot less. And and at higher, i.e., normal highway speeds, it's much less. It's funny that you accuse me of being dishonest when I'm posting info directly from Tesla.


See here's where you're attempting to make it seem as if you're being honest...

No, you showed a picture where it was in three states. You later claimed it was two states. (That's called lying.) You posted the mileage chart and then claimed the miles where drastically lower than they claim, that's called lying again. You state that something is true, present tense, when it isn't true any longer (though it was true) which is, again, lying. The latter we can give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is intentionally misleading just so you don't cry about it.

The question isn't about the automobile. The question isn't about the benefits, negatives, or various uses of the automobile. The question is, "Why are you lying?" That is it. That's the only question I have for you.
 
2013-05-09 07:49:20 PM

NightOwl2255: SN1987a goes boom: Considering over 50 million people live those zones...

And 260 million don't. And you still have to hope it's on your route. That would be a swing and a miss.


Not all of the 260 million drive. You just love being dishonest. It's okay, I'm home again now and can give you some more attention.

There are about 191,000,000 drivers on the road. Roughly 30 million of them are 60+ so probably don't commute so we can use a 150,000,000 as a decent enough rough estimate of commuters. That's a good 30% of which who can make use of this product at its current level of capacity.

For your final sentence, hopefully the buyers of these vehicles understand their needs and the logistics involved (you know, think and make educated choices based on their individual needs) so it isn't really a "swing and a miss." They'd actually know what they want the vehicle for, what they expect from the vehicle, the financial aspects, the availability of the means to recharge their vehicle, and any other factors they need to be concerned with. The logistics aren't actually all that difficult to figure out and people are able to determine what best suits their needs.

No, it doesn't have the range of a gas vehicle. Nobody is purchasing one expecting it to have that range. They're buying them because the vehicle suits their needs. No, it doesn't suit the needs of everybody. A knife is not the best tool for hammering in a nail. An electric car is not the best tool for driving across the country. It is pretty simple to understand and the attraction is there for those who are capable of thinking AND have a role that this vehicle suits better than a gas-powered vehicle does.
 
2013-05-09 07:54:59 PM

NightOwl2255: Farking Canuck: You have posted 30 or 40 times in this thread, you are posting out-of-date information in the hope of having a negative impact, you are insisting range is the most important thing when all the data and the user testimonials say otherwise.

A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.


All vehicles are limited. Deal with it.

I can't tow a boat with my car. I can't fit five people in my truck. I can't tow a 53' trailer behind my truck. I can't fit a tractor trailer truck in my garage. I can't go mudding in my car. I can't get 35mpg in my truck.

You know what you can't do with a gas powered vehicle?

You can't plug it in at night and charge it up to use it the following day.

I don't know where you got the idea that limitless is an achievable goal but until we have infinite resources we have to deal with limitations.
 
2013-05-09 07:58:44 PM

MrSteve007: Actually, I'm thinking of doing a 283 mile trip in my Leaf in the coming weeks (Seattle WA to Eugene, OR).


Good luck. Going to document it? Ever wish you'd gone for something with a greater range? I like the LEAF but, alas, I live in Maine which means the range isn't adequate for my needs. I've been considering a Tesla for a long time now though I'd prefer they put the Lotus chassis back on it.
 
2013-05-09 08:00:10 PM

NightOwl2255: FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?

just like a regular car, you mean?

No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


Well, no. Tesla recently announced that they'd replace the Model S battery regardless of fault for free.
 
2013-05-09 08:00:56 PM
I'd love to have one as I work from home and most of my driving is very small trips so an electric car would work perfectly for me.  But the price is going to have to come way down before I'll consider it when I can buy a Hyundai for under 20K and it will last me a couple of decades.
 
2013-05-09 08:07:45 PM

NightOwl2255: Hollie Maea: Ancient article. You could brick a Roadster if you tried really hard. You have never been able to brick a Model S. Even if you run it down and then park it. Either way, bricking is 100 percent covered by warranty, no questions asked.

So, not exactly 100% false, huh? I accept your apology.


This thread refers to the Model S. So ya, it is 100% false.

Next up: "if the iPhone 5 is so great, why can I kill the signal just by holding it wrong?"
 
2013-05-09 08:11:13 PM

NightOwl2255: PartTimeBuddha: The reasons you have given have been debunked.

The limited range and long charging time has been debunked? Telsa's's didn't brick because of failure to charge them? Do you know what debunk means?


Let's take these one at a time.

The limited range and long charging time has been debunked?

These are not long range vehicles, they are designed for use within their range. They aren't designed to be in use all the time thus allowing time to recharge easily and conveniently.

Telsa's's didn't brick because of failure to charge them?

They did when people didn't follow the directions given to them by the manufacturer. They have since taken greater steps to prevent that from happening because, it would appear, some people are stupid enough to not heed the manufacturer's warnings or follow the directions.

Do you know what debunk means?

Yes, do you?

/you're kind of fun
//for a retard
/no, really - you are
 
2013-05-09 08:24:16 PM

deffuse: Another example of how the internet enables people who sit well to the extremes of the standard distribution curve to interact with society at large.


That is a brilliant way of looking at it. Thank you.
 
2013-05-09 08:30:28 PM

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: It doesn't take a genius to see that it doesn't take that many miles to come out ahead in an electric car. In the 5 months I've owned mine, I've saved $937 in fuel costs already.

If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?


I don't have the time or energy to read this whole thread. I'm going to assume that  somebody pointed out that electric vehicles are not designed for cross-country road trips, the same way a Boeing 777 is not designed for a grocery run.
 
2013-05-09 08:37:30 PM

Jurodan: NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Real world experience trumps whatever else you might pull out of your ass.

You really are a dick, huh? No worries, lots of them on here.

As for my ass, you seem infatuated with it, here's where I pulled it out of:

[www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.

Ok, I gotta ask, since you've implied you're from Los Angeles: are there many highways around there with a speed limit of 75? Because there are NO roads around my area where that's legal.  Now I know I don't always go the speed limit, but the likelihood of me driving 225 miles at 75mph consistently is somewhere between slim and infinitesimal. Assuming perfect road conditions it isn't likely. Hell, assuming roads where it's LEGAL, driving for 3 hours without having to slow down for a while or just being forced to stop, odds are still pretty low.

Your claim is foolish because it's unrealistic. And it's unrealistic because unless you're in bizarro world where everyone else drives on sidewalks or through fields leaving the roads open to you, or you put your car on a treadmill to work it out, NOBODY DOES IT.


Well, slowing down and speeding up constantly (which people tend to do) actually hurts the mileage more. However, I will say that unless you're gunning it or going uphill, ~200 miles is about what you should expect when using a full charge and not holding back. The radio, etc. are all trivial. The only two things that make a difference are AC and heater -- with the heater significantly cutting down on range (~20% or so).

So while it does have many limitations, if you live in CA and don't travel more than 200 miles a day, you're likely going to be ok.
 
2013-05-09 09:32:28 PM

mjohnson71: NightOwl: I live 6 miles from work. Am I wrong for considering a Nissan Leaf as a second vehicle for just my driving to/from work?


Why wouldnt you bike?  What invest in a $20-25K vehicle to commute 12 miles round trip to work?  Provided you have a viable vehicle already, even an H1 or something getting 9 mpg, you wont ever recover the price by the time you changed jobs anyhow.
 
2013-05-09 10:09:47 PM

Cuyose: mjohnson71: NightOwl: I live 6 miles from work. Am I wrong for considering a Nissan Leaf as a second vehicle for just my driving to/from work?

Why wouldnt you bike?  What invest in a $20-25K vehicle to commute 12 miles round trip to work?  Provided you have a viable vehicle already, even an H1 or something getting 9 mpg, you wont ever recover the price by the time you changed jobs anyhow.


Not everyone lives in southern california.

velojoy.com
 
2013-05-10 12:00:18 AM
One more note on the Roadster bricking incident, there's more than a little circumstantial evidence that the owner did it deliberately, after having the car for sale for two months, in order to extort Tesla to buy it back when he couldn't find a buyer at the price he wanted.
 
2013-05-10 12:50:37 AM
I paid 5000 for my car. I expect to get 215 to 220k miles out of it like my last car, of the same make, model etc. It had 15k when I bought it. It gets 30 miles to the gallon, so 200k ÷30=6667 gallons of gas my car will use during its life. 6667× 4.20 (I live in ca gas is expensive here) = 28000. 28000 + 5000= 33000 to buy and drive my car. They want 80k for the one that goes further....pass.

Yes I know there are other costs with a car but the main difference is gas vs electric, if all other costs are the same for either car, these aren't worth it for anything other than ego stroking.
 
2013-05-10 01:27:17 AM
fatbear:
Not everyone lives in southern california.

[velojoy.com image 640x480]


You can see the bike locked up in the winter?

You must live somewhere warm. Where I am the bikes get buried under snowbanks
 
2013-05-10 02:01:14 AM

Magnanimous_Spirit: I paid 5000 for my car. I expect to get 215 to 220k miles out of it like my last car, of the same make, model etc. It had 15k when I bought it. It gets 30 miles to the gallon, so 200k ÷30=6667 gallons of gas my car will use during its life. 6667× 4.20 (I live in ca gas is expensive here) = 28000. 28000 + 5000= 33000 to buy and drive my car. They want 80k for the one that goes further....pass.

Yes I know there are other costs with a car but the main difference is gas vs electric, if all other costs are the same for either car, these aren't worth it for anything other than ego stroking.


it is a luxury car. You pay accordingly. It is competing with, say, an Audi A8, not with your $5000 cracker box.
 
2013-05-10 02:44:08 AM

Hollie Maea: it is a luxury car. You pay accordingly. It is competing with, say, an Audi A8, not with your $5000 cracker box.


Quite. Also, pre-owned cracker box vs new Audi A8.
 
2013-05-10 03:49:58 AM

Magnanimous_Spirit: I paid 5000 for my car. I expect to get 215 to 220k miles out of it like my last car, of the same make, model etc. It had 15k when I bought it. It gets 30 miles to the gallon, so 200k ÷30=6667 gallons of gas my car will use during its life. 6667× 4.20 (I live in ca gas is expensive here) = 28000. 28000 + 5000= 33000 to buy and drive my car. They want 80k for the one that goes further....pass.

Yes I know there are other costs with a car but the main difference is gas vs electric, if all other costs are the same for either car, these aren't worth it for anything other than ego stroking.


You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense
 
2013-05-10 04:24:38 AM
This thread feels like an episode of Top Gear, lots of people arguing the finer points of cars that 99.99% of the market will never be able to afford.

Should I buy an Aventador or the latest 911? Questions only people who actually host shows about sports cars can afford to ask themselves.

I love Top Gear, but just like Tesla it's a dream show, letting us see what the extremely rich use for their toys. Tesla will never be a dominant car company so long as their vehicles cost as much as a house.

When they put out a $20,000 vehicle with a single charge range of 300 miles, and the ability to charge in under 30 min, then you are looking at something that will be a plausible replacement for gasoline based engines.

Until then it's just another Bently or Lamborghini style toy for rich people.
 
2013-05-10 05:18:59 AM

hetheeme: This thread feels like an episode of Top Gear, lots of people arguing the finer points of cars that 99.99% of the market will never be able to afford.

Should I buy an Aventador or the latest 911? Questions only people who actually host shows about sports cars can afford to ask themselves.

I love Top Gear, but just like Tesla it's a dream show, letting us see what the extremely rich use for their toys. Tesla will never be a dominant car company so long as their vehicles cost as much as a house.

When they put out a $20,000 vehicle with a single charge range of 300 miles, and the ability to charge in under 30 min, then you are looking at something that will be a plausible replacement for gasoline based engines.

Until then it's just another Bently or Lamborghini style toy for rich people.


Early generations of new technologies are expensive. This is nothing new. It was the same for gas powered cars. The Tesla S is a luxury car meant to compete with other luxury cars. It is price comprable with high end cars from makers like Mercedes, Lexus, etc. (not Lamborghini or Bently, those are in a whole other price class). The tesla is not supposed to be the model T of electric cars. Nobody is saying it is.
 
2013-05-10 06:29:04 AM
Lots of Repugnicans Fark Independentstm in here.

As for the car, WANT!
 
2013-05-10 07:04:21 AM

Thrag: Early generations of new technologies are expensive.


Yet they wont shut up about how cheap it is, and how power everywhere is free (and will always remain free because when everyone has EV's outlets in parking lots won't become a commodity...)

You didn't save any farking money paying 14 cents per kWh to charge an $80,000 when you could by a $20,000 car that will go it's entire lifetime without spending $60,000 on fuel or repairs.
 
2013-05-10 07:25:23 AM

fluffy2097: Thrag: Early generations of new technologies are expensive.

Yet they wont shut up about how cheap it is, and how power everywhere is free (and will always remain free because when everyone has EV's outlets in parking lots won't become a commodity...)

You didn't save any farking money paying 14 cents per kWh to charge an $80,000 when you could by a $20,000 car that will go it's entire lifetime without spending $60,000 on fuel or repairs.


Who is talking about how cheap it is? In this thread I see people acknowledging the price is that of a high end luxury car. Who is saying the free charging stations will always be free? What bizzaro universe version of this thread are you reading?

I will never understand why people are so dedicated to ignorant naysaying.
 
2013-05-10 07:56:50 AM

fluffy2097: Thrag: Early generations of new technologies are expensive.

Yet they wont shut up about how cheap it is, and how power everywhere is free (and will always remain free because when everyone has EV's outlets in parking lots won't become a commodity...)

You didn't save any farking money paying 14 cents per kWh to charge an $80,000 when you could by a $20,000 car that will go it's entire lifetime without spending $60,000 on fuel or repairs.


Who's saying it's cheap?

You're comparing a 20,000 POS to an 80,000 luxury car.

If you're starting with a $20,000 gasoline car, compare it to the $30,000 Nisssan Leaf. Now tell me you won't put $10,000 of gas in it over its lifetime. Of course, for $20,000 you're buying a Dodge dart, so maybe it will only go 68,000 miles (at 27mpg, $4/gallon) before it shiats the bed.
 
2013-05-10 09:18:02 AM
They need to make a Texas Edition that can go ~400 miles on a charge at 85 MPH. I'll be sold then.
 
2013-05-10 10:04:43 AM

Glitchwerks: You'd figure they'd come up with a design that looks a little less like a Mazda and more like a Merc or Audi.


I thought it looked an oversized 2013 Dodge Dart.

That said, that car's starting to grow on me, as is the Model S (I've seen two now). It's a very slick-looking car, and given a few tweaks to the EV system and a better price, I wouldn't mind owning one. It's certainly not as attention-whorish as the Fisker Karma.
 
2013-05-10 11:42:53 AM
I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  I think a lot of folks have been going pretty hard on  NightOwl2255 (and with good reason).  Not because I think he's right or has a good point to make, but because he's allowed you guys ample opportunity to dispell a lot of fictions about Electric Vehicles that I'd still had in my head (and a few I haven't).  Because of this, it's pretty likely that, when I'm done with my Civic (in a couple years), my next car will be an EV (Either the Fit EV or Nissan Leaf, if they haven't come out with a Civic EV by then)

I plan on always living close to where I work, and even if the battery and charging station tech doesn't solve the range issue (not a big one for me), I can take the money I save on not filling up on gas to rent a car for long hauls.  The Teslas are out of my price range, but the Nissan Leaf should be fine for my commutes and starts at under $22k; not too much more than a Civic Sedan.

From what I've read here (and in looking up information to verify claims), I'm getting the feeling that EV's are going to really start taking off soon, especially once the charging station infrastructure is in place (it took a good long while to get where we are with gas stations everywhere; originally, you'd be lucky to have a gas station in a major city, let alone in every town of 500 people).  And with charging stations using solar to power them, it will also push along solar technology to help lighten the load for the oil and natural gas plants.

It seems like, if this tech takes off, everyone wins except the oil companies.  So, I have to stand behind it.
 
2013-05-10 12:24:43 PM

Thrag: I will never understand why people are so dedicated to ignorant naysaying.


Because they're lazy, and getting the facts takes work.

ColdFusion: I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  I think a lot of folks have been going pretty hard on  NightOwl2255 (and with good reason).  Not because I think he's right or has a good point to make, but because he's allowed you guys ample opportunity to dispell a lot of fictions about Electric Vehicles that I'd still had in my head (and a few I haven't).  Because of this, it's pretty likely that, when I'm done with my Civic (in a couple years), my next car will be an EV (Either the Fit EV or Nissan Leaf, if they haven't come out with a Civic EV by then)

I plan on always living close to where I work, and even if the battery and charging station tech doesn't solve the range issue (not a big one for me), I can take the money I save on not filling up on gas to rent a car for long hauls.  The Teslas are out of my price range, but the Nissan Leaf should be fine for my commutes and starts at under $22k; not too much more than a Civic Sedan.

From what I've read here (and in looking up information to verify claims), I'm getting the feeling that EV's are going to really start taking off soon, especially once the charging station infrastructure is in place (it took a good long while to get where we are with gas stations everywhere; originally, you'd be lucky to have a gas station in a major city, let alone in every town of 500 people).  And with charging stations using solar to power them, it will also push along solar technology to help lighten the load for the oil and natural gas plants.

It seems like, if this tech takes off, everyone wins except the oil companies.  So, I have to stand behind it.


I'm mostly in the same situation, except that while I live about 6 miles from work, I travel about 100 miles each way every few weeks, and it doesn't make sense for me to own two cars (and taking public transit on the 100-mile trip would take 5 hours each way).  Right now the Model S is the only electric car in existence that can meet my needs, but in order to afford it I'd need to save up a lot of money.
 
2013-05-10 01:48:10 PM

ColdFusion: Because of this, it's pretty likely that, when I'm done with my Civic (in a couple years), my next car will be an EV (Either the Fit EV or Nissan Leaf, if they haven't come out with a Civic EV by then)


If you are waiting a couple of years, the Tesla Bluestar will probably be the best car on the market.  They are targeting 30K (that might be before incentives) and 200+ mile range.  It's going to be sweet.
 
2013-05-10 01:51:50 PM

anfrind: I'm mostly in the same situation, except that while I live about 6 miles from work, I travel about 100 miles each way every few weeks, and it doesn't make sense for me to own two cars (and taking public transit on the 100-mile trip would take 5 hours each way).  Right now the Model S is the only electric car in existence that can meet my needs, but in order to afford it I'd need to save up a lot of money.


Sounds like another potential Tesla Bluestar customer.
 
2013-05-10 03:14:37 PM
Up almost another 10% since the opening bell rang.

I wonder if this thread's chief naysayer got that short order placed? ;)
 
2013-05-10 03:25:08 PM
Another gubmint sponsored green technology bankruptcy in 5,4,3,2,1... but,but this time it's different.  Consumer Reports said so.
 
2013-05-10 03:38:19 PM

Mean Daddy: Another gubmint sponsored green technology bankruptcy in 5,4,3,2,1... but,but this time it's different.  Consumer Reports said so.


Go short some Tesla stock.
 
2013-05-10 04:04:43 PM

Thrag: Up almost another 10% since the opening bell rang.

I wonder if this thread's chief naysayer got that short order placed? ;)


My guess is that his handlers told him that he'd gone too far, and the next time there's a Tesla thread he'll develop Romnesia and try to pretend that he never said he'd short the stock.
 
2013-05-10 10:03:10 PM

Mean Daddy: Another gubmint sponsored green technology bankruptcy in 5,4,3,2,1... but,but this time it's different.  Consumer Reports said so.


And their earnings said so to, but hey, why let real profit get in the way of a good narrative?
 
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