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(Reuters)   Consumer Reports rates the Tesla Model S a 99/100, tied for the highest score they've ever given. Hey, gas companies, can you see the signs?   (reuters.com) divider line 336
    More: Cool, Model S, Consumer Reports, Fisker Karma, plug-in hybrids, luxury vehicles, 6.0, Porsche Panamera, Back to the Future  
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4536 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 May 2013 at 11:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-09 10:32:29 AM  
Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.
 
2013-05-09 10:40:23 AM  
Don't worry. They'll use all those politicians they own to stifle the technology with regulations and all sorts of bullshiat while lobbying for billions more in welfare. I mean subsidies.
 
2013-05-09 10:40:58 AM  

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


But good for the early adopters - people who buy things like this are helping to pay for the R&D that will make practical vehicles for the rest of us down the road.
 
2013-05-09 10:44:12 AM  

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options, and they actually take less than an hour to charge at the (free) roadside Tesla "supercharge" stations that are popping up all over the place, or they'll recharge in your garage overnight at the rate of about 30 miles of range per hour.  They're perfectly useful for everything but cross-country road trips, and even for that if you use the supercharge stations.

I have two friends who have them, and I've driven both their cars. I have to say, though, that the 99/100 score is wrong. I would rate it 100/100. They're the most amazing cars I've driven, and so fast that it's surreal.  I want one, and I'll probably get one in the not-too-distant future.
 
2013-05-09 10:50:23 AM  
If you can afford an $80,000 second car I'm very happy for you. Or if your needs make the relatively short range feasible.
 
2013-05-09 10:53:57 AM  

Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options, and they actually take less than an hour to charge at the (free) roadside Tesla "supercharge" stations that are popping up all over the place


If by "all over the place" you mean 9 (almost all in one state) then yeah.
i939.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-09 10:55:33 AM  

Aarontology: Don't worry. They'll use all those politicians they own to stifle the technology with regulations and all sorts of bullshiat while lobbying for billions more in welfare. I mean subsidies.


Tesla did receive a small part of its initial capital in an interest-bearing  loan from the Department of Energy--which it's paying back on schedule out of corporate profits, under a program set up by the Bush administration. Otherwise, it's completely privately capitalized. This isn't Fiskar. It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.
 
2013-05-09 11:00:50 AM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options, and they actually take less than an hour to charge at the (free) roadside Tesla "supercharge" stations that are popping up all over the place

If by "all over the place" you mean 9 (almost all in one state) then yeah.
[i939.photobucket.com image 850x598]


In less than a year, yeah. They'll be nationwide fairly soon.  And there are thousands of other private charging stations (hell, there's even one in the parking garage of my office building at work) all over the place already, which, while not as fast as the supercharge stations, can still be pretty fast and charge only a couple of bucks for a recharge.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-09 11:02:21 AM  

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


When it costs a third of that I will get one, but not now.
 
2013-05-09 11:05:08 AM  

Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options


Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 www.teslamotors.com

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.
 
2013-05-09 11:08:21 AM  

vpb: knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.

When it costs a third of that I will get one, but not now.


Conversely, when $80,000 becomes closer to the average car price. Car prices are blowing the doors off regular inflation.
 
2013-05-09 11:09:29 AM  

Cyberluddite: Tesla did receive a small part of its initial capital in an interest-bearing loan from the Department of Energy--which it's paying back on schedule out of corporate profits, under a program set up by the Bush administration. Otherwise, it's completely privately capitalized. This isn't Fiskar. It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.


Tesla Motors enjoys massive financial support from the Federal government, as well as various state and local governments: The Department of Energy (DOE) provided Tesla with $465 mln of low-interest loans under its Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program, buyers of the Tesla Model S luxury sedan gain $7,500 of Federal tax credits (at an annual cost to taxpayers of $150 mln at 'full output' of 20,000 Model S sedans per year) and state and local government incentives include a $2,500 rebate for Model S buyers in California, sales tax waivers, free parking, free charging and authorized travel in car pool lanes. Electric vehicle charging stations have also been subsidized, with Federal tax credits ranging from 30% of the cost of a home charger, up to a $1,000 tax credit, to $30,000 for the installation of commercial chargers. In addition, government environmental credit schemes forced other auto makers to pay Tesla roughly $108 mln in over the past six months to "offset" the CO2 produced by their gasoline engine-equipped vehicles with credits generated by Model S sales

That gravy train has a caboose. It will end at some point.
 
2013-05-09 11:12:29 AM  

knbber2: car that you can drive for three hours


Your daily commute must be hell.
 
2013-05-09 11:12:31 AM  

Cyberluddite: Aarontology: Don't worry. They'll use all those politicians they own to stifle the technology with regulations and all sorts of bullshiat while lobbying for billions more in welfare. I mean subsidies.

Tesla did receive a small part of its initial capital in an interest-bearing  loan from the Department of Energy--which it's paying back on schedule out of corporate profits, under a program set up by the Bush administration. Otherwise, it's completely privately capitalized. This isn't Fiskar. It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.


I mean the petroleum companies are going to be taking the welfare and attempting to use their influence over government to make Tesla less competitive through enacting red tape and the like.
 
2013-05-09 11:21:00 AM  
Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?
 
2013-05-09 11:23:16 AM  
Here is the Consumer Reports video review.

It should be interesting to see how the Model X compares.
 
2013-05-09 11:24:54 AM  

unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?


just like a regular car, you mean?
 
2013-05-09 11:30:17 AM  

Aarontology: Don't worry. They'll use all those politicians they own to stifle the technology with regulations and all sorts of bullshiat while lobbying for billions more in welfare. I mean subsidies.


Yes, just like coal stiffled the oil industry. Remember that?

NightOwl2255: If by "all over the place" you mean 9 (almost all in one state) then yeah.


There are some kind of chargers here and there in Quebec. I don't have a car so I don't know much about them. Have we (the species) standardized a connector?
 
2013-05-09 11:32:10 AM  
Even if you can "fill-up" at a supercharger station, who has an entire hour to refuel? I can fuel up my vehicle in 5 minutes and be back on the road. It's always seemed to me that the way to make the EV feasible is to have battery swap out stations. Pull in with a nearly depleted battery and the station attendant swaps it out for a fresh one in under 10 minutes.  The station recharges the used batteries for later swaps.
 
2013-05-09 11:34:10 AM  
Comrade Reports never met a hybrid or cheap car (non-American, of course) they didn't love.
 
2013-05-09 11:34:59 AM  
You'd figure they'd come up with a design that looks a little less like a Mazda and more like a Merc or Audi.
 
2013-05-09 11:37:09 AM  

FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?

just like a regular car, you mean?


No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.
 
2013-05-09 11:37:34 AM  
It would meet my wife's work car needs perfectly.

And we live in LA, so the existing recharging stations would work for most trips we take. Except for when we go to Phoenix, so we'd need a recharging station around Blythe.

$80k is a bit much for us though.
 
2013-05-09 11:39:21 AM  

JerseyTim: Here is the Consumer Reports video review.

It should be interesting to see how the Model X compares.


I hope that's all true, but I had to wipe my chin off after watching that.
 
2013-05-09 11:40:10 AM  

NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k


whoa.
 
2013-05-09 11:41:57 AM  
 
2013-05-09 11:42:52 AM  
In the Bay Area, I see Nissan Leafs all the time, and a Model S at least two or three times a day. Part of the reason is the little white sticker that lets you use the HOV lane. But since most families around here have two cars, it makes perfect sense to have an electric commuter and a gas powered long range cruiser.

Or, you could have only the electric, and the times you need to take a road trip, rent. As gas prices increase, this is a viable financial model.

I also think that plug-in hybrids don't get nearly the love they deserve. Best of both in one car.
 
2013-05-09 11:43:40 AM  
Um... I meant two or three times a week. They're not that common. Sorry.
 
2013-05-09 11:44:12 AM  

NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


You need a new talking point. Tesla now has an unlimited, "no fault" battery warranty. Even if an owner deliberately trys to destroy or abuse the battery, they'll replace it for free.
 
2013-05-09 11:44:52 AM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.


NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Tesla did receive a small part of its initial capital in an interest-bearing loan from the Department of Energy--which it's paying back on schedule out of corporate profits, under a program set up by the Bush administration. Otherwise, it's completely privately capitalized. This isn't Fiskar. It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.

Tesla Motors enjoys massive financial support from the Federal government, as well as various state and local governments: The Department of Energy (DOE) provided Tesla with $465 mln of low-interest loans under its Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program, buyers of the Tesla Model S luxury sedan gain $7,500 of Federal tax credits (at an annual cost to taxpayers of $150 mln at 'full output' of 20,000 Model S sedans per year) and state and local government incentives include a $2,500 rebate for Model S buyers in California, sales tax waivers, free parking, free charging and authorized travel in car pool lanes. Electric vehicle charging stations have also been subsidized, with Federal tax credits ranging from 30% of the cost of a home charger, up to a $1,000 tax credit, to $30,000 for the installation of commercial chargers. In addition, government environmental credit schemes forced other auto makers to pay Tesla roughly $108 mln in over the past six months to "offset" the CO2 produced by their gasoline engine-equipped vehicles with credits generated by Model S sales

That gravy train has a caboose. It will end at some point.


NightOwl2255: FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?

just like a regular car, you mean?

No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


Jesus man, you are trying WAAAY too hard to get people to hate Tesla.  What's your deal man?
 
2013-05-09 11:47:52 AM  
I don't feel like doing any real research, so I'm hoping a Farker that knows can help me out.  Does the mileage range stay constant as the car/battery gets older?  Like, when you get a new phone, a full charge seems to last forever.  A year later, you gotta plug that sucker in all the time.  Does the Tesla battery life similarly suffer as it gets older?
 
2013-05-09 11:48:27 AM  

MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

You need a new talking point. Tesla now has an unlimited, "no fault" battery warranty. Even if an owner deliberately trys to destroy or abuse the battery, they'll replace it for free.


They also put in several more failsafes on the Model S.


Tesla's corporate blog explained the fail-safe provisions of the new model this way: "A Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge. At that point the car can still sit for many months. Of course you can drive a Model S to 0 percent charge, but even in that circumstance, if you plug it in within 30 days, the battery will recover normally."

Q.How does a fail-safe system work?

A.A fail-safe essentially disconnects the E.V. battery pack from other vehicle systems that drain the battery. When cut off from the rest of the car, the battery will still drain, but it could take a year or more before the battery loses all power.
 
2013-05-09 11:50:07 AM  
Meh, call me when they have a hydrogen car that all i have to do is pour water in to fill up.
 
2013-05-09 11:50:31 AM  

AntonChigger: Jesus man, you are trying WAAAY too hard to get people to hate Tesla. What's your deal man?


Elon Musk touched him in a bad place when he was a child.
 
2013-05-09 11:51:37 AM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: I don't feel like doing any real research, so I'm hoping a Farker that knows can help me out.  Does the mileage range stay constant as the car/battery gets older?  Like, when you get a new phone, a full charge seems to last forever.  A year later, you gotta plug that sucker in all the time.  Does the Tesla battery life similarly suffer as it gets older?


In theory all batteries degrade, but these are supposed to do it much slower. I know the guy that helped develop many batteries but can't say anything about which ones....
 
2013-05-09 11:53:02 AM  

Migrating Coconut: Meh, call me when they have a hydrogen car that all i have to do is pour water in to fill up.


Leaving now to buy stock in Big Water companies. Soon they'll be bought out by Exxon and BP and I'll be rich.
 
2013-05-09 11:53:02 AM  

majestic: Even if you can "fill-up" at a supercharger station, who has an entire hour to refuel? I can fuel up my vehicle in 5 minutes and be back on the road. It's always seemed to me that the way to make the EV feasible is to have battery swap out stations. Pull in with a nearly depleted battery and the station attendant swaps it out for a fresh one in under 10 minutes.  The station recharges the used batteries for later swaps.


My thoughts exactly.

I envisioned a modular battery standard - say 10Kw per battery, which would be about the size of a regular car battery. You could stop ANYWHERE, take out you eight batteries and swap them for eight fresh ones, and go. You could even purchase 'extras' to carry with you if you had a legitimate need to go even longer distances at time (or in case of emergency). Each 10Kw battery would be good for a bit over 30 miles of travel in a typical EV.
A convenience store/gas station - heck, even a restaurant, would have a supercharger installed and buy a set of batteries to use as a pool for exchanges. A typical swap might be $1 each. Maybe $2 as a convenience (since it is a convenience thing, not to be used every day).
 
2013-05-09 11:53:29 AM  

MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

You need a new talking point. Tesla now has an unlimited, "no fault" battery warranty. Even if an owner deliberately trys to destroy or abuse the battery, they'll replace it for free.


Calm down. I could not care less about Tesla. I was just repeating a story, that happens to be true.
 
2013-05-09 11:54:30 AM  

R.A.Danny: In theory all batteries degrade, but these are supposed to do it much slower.


Thanks!
 
2013-05-09 11:56:41 AM  

AntonChigger: Jesus man, you are trying WAAAY too hard to get people to hate Tesla. What's your deal man?


I don't care about Tesla, just like to keep the facts straight. Without sucking the government teat (not the only one, of course) Tesla would not stand a chance. Well, they would have a lot harder row to hoe.
 
2013-05-09 11:57:39 AM  

theorellior: AntonChigger: Jesus man, you are trying WAAAY too hard to get people to hate Tesla. What's your deal man?

Elon Musk touched him in a bad place when he was a child.


Damn, you went there fast. Care to share?
 
2013-05-09 11:57:43 AM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

You need a new talking point. Tesla now has an unlimited, "no fault" battery warranty. Even if an owner deliberately trys to destroy or abuse the battery, they'll replace it for free.

Calm down. I could not care less about Tesla. I was just repeating a story, that happens to be true.


Uh, he seems pretty calm to me bro.  You're the one with multiple posts trying to paint Tesla as a piece of shiat.
 
2013-05-09 11:58:08 AM  

NightOwl2255: Calm down. I could not care less about Tesla. I was just repeating a story, that happens

used  to be true.

What was true then is not true now. The battery is under warranty for all Tesla cars (retroactively) and it doesn't cost anything for owners to have replaced. And as R.A. Danny pointed out, they wireless delivered a firmware update last year that doesn't allow the battery to go completely dead (unless it's unplugged for over a year).

So essentially, everything you stated is now wrong.
 
2013-05-09 11:58:13 AM  

Migrating Coconut: Meh, call me when they have a hydrogen car that all i have to do is pour water in to fill up.


You do know that water is the stable exhaust product for hydrogen cars, right? No stored energy in it (unless you are talking abour Mr Fusion).
 
2013-05-09 11:58:16 AM  

NightOwl2255: An uproar recently ignited on automotive blogs over a post about a Tesla Roadster whose battery needed replacement after its owner parked the car, low on charge and unplugged, for more than two months. The battery, which had fully discharged, could not be revived.


it sounds like the manual and whatnot stated that you shouldn't let the battery fully discharge, and yet this guy did just that. which would be like driving your car without oil. in any case, $30k for a battery does seem insane.
 
2013-05-09 11:59:02 AM  

NightOwl2255: theorellior: AntonChigger: Jesus man, you are trying WAAAY too hard to get people to hate Tesla. What's your deal man?

Elon Musk touched him in a bad place when he was a child.

Damn, you went there fast. Care to share?


What, you've never used PayPal?
 
2013-05-09 12:00:02 PM  
If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.

Do the same for all other forms of automobile and energy, too.

Cut them all off. If we are a capitalist country, then let us practice capitalism--including capitalism for rich people.
 
2013-05-09 12:01:01 PM  

R.A.Danny: If you can afford an $80,000 second car I'm very happy for you. Or if your needs make the relatively short range feasible.



The average American commuter spent (in 2011) about 50 minutes on the road. Even if you combine that with around-town errands and/or schlepping the kids to and fro most people's driving needs could be easily met by this car, or it's cheaper brethren in the near future.

I see the typical 2-car family of 2020 having one all-electric and one hybrid.*


*Barring GOP presidencies, asteroid strike, zombie apocalypse, or other horrific disasters.
 
2013-05-09 12:02:32 PM  

Silly_Sot: If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.

Do the same for all other forms of automobile and energy, too.

Cut them all off. If we are a capitalist country, then let us practice capitalism--including capitalism for rich people.


You really are silly, those rules are for the little people.
 
2013-05-09 12:02:49 PM  

MrSteve007: So essentially, everything you stated is now wrong.


Damn, you do love you some Tesla, don't ya? That's okay. Did the guy's Tesla brick? Yes. Did Tesla refuse to fix it? Yes. Go on with your bad self.
 
2013-05-09 12:03:30 PM  
This might work in dense places, like SoCal and New England, but for most of the country if a place isn't close it's way far. I'm reminded of a observation; In Europe a hundred miles is a long distance, in the united states a hundred years is a long time.

/shiat, a round trip to my gym would use 5% of the range.
 
2013-05-09 12:03:37 PM  

AntonChigger: Uh, he seems pretty calm to me bro. You're the one with multiple posts trying to paint Tesla as a piece of shiat.


Well, if it walks like a duck...
 
2013-05-09 12:03:53 PM  

FlashHarry: NightOwl2255: An uproar recently ignited on automotive blogs over a post about a Tesla Roadster whose battery needed replacement after its owner parked the car, low on charge and unplugged, for more than two months. The battery, which had fully discharged, could not be revived.

it sounds like the manual and whatnot stated that you shouldn't let the battery fully discharge, and yet this guy did just that. which would be like driving your car without oil. in any case, $30k for a battery does seem insane.


Costs for these batteries run around $500 per KWh. So an 85KWh being sold a $30k is actually a pretty good deal. They are either subsidizing a bit, or they have made good progress in getting battery costs down.

Remember, that means that the car itself costs over $50k without a battery - which is pretty damn expensive. You can buy a brand new Corvette, with an engine, for the cost of the car alone.
 
2013-05-09 12:07:07 PM  
People who spend 80-100k on a car often have a 2nd or even 3rd vehicle they can use for car trips. As a daily commuter the Model S is the best car out there.
 
2013-05-09 12:07:54 PM  

madgonad: Remember, that means that the car itself costs over $50k without a battery - which is pretty damn expensive.


true - but you have to factor a lot of R&D and proprietary parts into that as well. it's not like tesla can buy off-the-shelf parts from suppliers like the detroit boys can - not when it comes to the powertrain, anyway.
 
2013-05-09 12:08:30 PM  

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


Not to mention they're not gas companies, they're energy companies. With everyone so afraid of nuclear and the right against solar and wind no matter what, looks like they have a bright future with gas electricity plants.

They'll go where they need to go to keep making money off us all, have no fear.
 
2013-05-09 12:09:12 PM  

majestic: Even if you can "fill-up" at a supercharger station, who has an entire hour to refuel? I can fuel up my vehicle in 5 minutes and be back on the road. It's always seemed to me that the way to make the EV feasible is to have battery swap out stations. Pull in with a nearly depleted battery and the station attendant swaps it out for a fresh one in under 10 minutes.  The station recharges the used batteries for later swaps.


 There's a company called Better Place that's trying to commercialize a set up like that.
 
2013-05-09 12:11:14 PM  

Silly_Sot: If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.


The one federal government *loan* they got is being repaid, and repaid early - considering it's a *loan,* taxpayers are going to be repaid, with interest.

As for the subsidies, the tax credit currently goes to the *buyers* of any electric vehicle, regardless of brand (I can't speak to any subsudies the company may have received from the state of Cali).

I'll be curious what people will attempt to biatch about when Tesla repays their loan in full. They've already made what most consider to be the best automobile ever built, with the best warranty and depreciation guarantee ever seen for a car - and it just happens to be electric & built entirely by Californians.
 
2013-05-09 12:13:28 PM  
NightOwl2255: FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?
 
just like a regular car, you mean?

No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


Whose ass did you pull that out of?


The car's system isn't going to let you run the battery down low enough to brick it.  At some point, if you run the battery down low enough, it'll shut the motor down and make you pull over to the side of the road, as you would have to do if you ran out of gas in your car.  But there will still be enough juice at that point to open and close the doors, unlock the emergency brake, keep the car's management system up, etc. There's no way the car's very sophisticated electronic/computer management system is going to let the battery get down to absolute zero, so your fantasy is a non-issue.
 
2013-05-09 12:15:55 PM  
notthisshiatagain.jpg

I went "all in" on a Ford Escape hybrid a few years ago, and it's been worth every nickel

/haters gonna hate, etc.
 
2013-05-09 12:16:30 PM  

Cyberluddite: In less than a year, yeah. They'll be nationwide fairly soon.


Tesla is making a big supercharger announcement this week (probably today; Elon is teasing it on Twitter right now).
 
2013-05-09 12:18:31 PM  

NightOwl2255: At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles.


Why are you reading the "Roadster" graph to make arguments about the Model S?
 
2013-05-09 12:19:15 PM  

unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?


If it bricks, warranty covers it.  Even if it is your fault.
 
2013-05-09 12:20:19 PM  

NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


100 percent false.
 
2013-05-09 12:23:57 PM  

flaminio: In the Bay Area, I see Nissan Leafs all the time, and a Model S at least two or three times a day. Part of the reason is the little white sticker that lets you use the HOV lane. But since most families around here have two cars, it makes perfect sense to have an electric commuter and a gas powered long range cruiser.

Or, you could have only the electric, and the times you need to take a road trip, rent. As gas prices increase, this is a viable financial model.

I also think that plug-in hybrids don't get nearly the love they deserve. Best of both in one car.


I'm in the bay area, too, and have noticed that. My employer also has charging stations set up.

Since 90% of my commute is just three miles back and forth to work, I'm seriously considering getting, at the minimum, a plug-in hybrid for our next vehicle.
 
2013-05-09 12:24:36 PM  

NightOwl2255: Without sucking the government teat (not the only one, of course) Tesla would not stand a chance. Well, they would have a lot harder row to hoe.


Wow. Private Sector Stooges really want America to Fail.

Innovation often requires Gov. assistance to get its feet off the ground, see: Railroads, Mail Service, Telephony, Internet,  Tons of Military and NASA applications, Hospitals, etc.

Remove Gov. from supporting business and we'll get Somalia.

The Gov. TEAT should not be reserved for;  Big Oil, Big Food, Big Pharma, and GE/Chrysler. Despite the fact that each of the BIG listed want to squash any other Gov. funded initiatives that might eventually compete with them.
 
2013-05-09 12:26:07 PM  

FlashHarry: madgonad: Remember, that means that the car itself costs over $50k without a battery - which is pretty damn expensive.

true - but you have to factor a lot of R&D and proprietary parts into that as well. it's not like tesla can buy off-the-shelf parts from suppliers like the detroit boys can - not when it comes to the powertrain, anyway.


Not necessarily, but you are pretty close. The Roadster was essentially a Lotus with electric motors and no engine. This article talks specifically about part sourcing for the S.
 
2013-05-09 12:26:25 PM  

Cyberluddite: Whose ass did you pull that out of?


The car's system isn't going to let you run the battery down low enough to brick it.


It sounds like they've addressed it and added a warranty just in case, but

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastating-design-problem
 
2013-05-09 12:27:01 PM  

Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

100 percent false.


Used to be true. Apparently they've remedied it. I didn't know they'd fixed it till researching for this thread.

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastating-design-problem
 
2013-05-09 12:27:18 PM  
Amazing the bullshiat and disinfo out there regarding electric cars. But i'm sure the oil companies aren't behind it. They probably hate having entire populations under their thumbs, and are anxious to end it all.
 
2013-05-09 12:28:08 PM  

unlikely: It sounds like they've addressed it and added a warranty just in case, but

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastating-design-problem


Ancient article.  You could brick a Roadster if you tried really hard.  You have never been able to brick a Model S.  Even if you run it down and then park it.    Either way, bricking is 100 percent covered by warranty, no questions asked.
 
2013-05-09 12:29:08 PM  

NightOwl2255: FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?

just like a regular car, you mean?

No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


That was in their Roadster. No one has had this problem with the new car yet, just rumor that its the same technology.
 
2013-05-09 12:31:46 PM  
 
2013-05-09 12:33:32 PM  

Hollie Maea: Ancient article. You could brick a Roadster if you tried really hard. You have never been able to brick a Model S. Even if you run it down and then park it. Either way, bricking is 100 percent covered by warranty, no questions asked.


So, not exactly 100% false, huh? I accept your apology.
 
2013-05-09 12:33:40 PM  

NightOwl2255: This was from Feb 2012. Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel


Speculative FUD article from before the Model S even came out.  It is revealing how strongly you latched onto that article but have not looked into the issue ever since.
 
2013-05-09 12:34:51 PM  

NightOwl2255: So, not exactly 100% false, huh? I accept your apology.


We were talking specifically of the Model S.  You were also talking in the present tense.  So yes, your statement was 100 percent false.
 
2013-05-09 12:36:20 PM  

BHShaman: Innovation often requires Gov. assistance to get its feet off the ground, see: Railroads, Mail Service, Telephony, Internet, Tons of Military and NASA applications, Hospitals, etc.


At what point is its feet off the ground? According to one Farker, Tesla S is the best car ever produced. Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?
 
2013-05-09 12:37:16 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Whose ass did you pull that out of?

Damn, you have some issues. You make silly statements like Tesla charging stations being "all over the place when in fact, they are in in two states only.

Now, as for my ass. In the case of a Tesla, you apparently can't just do a deep and loving recharge: no battery version of the dent wizard. When the battery bricks, or fully discharges, you replace the battery pack at a cost of around $40,000 ($32,000 plus labor and taxes). It's not covered by the Tesla warranty or car insurance. You can buy a $12,000 replacement policy that would cover a worn out battery but not a dead-from-total-discharge battery while the car is under warranty.
This was from Feb 2012. Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel.


I don't see any mention of the Model S in that article. Do you have any links that talk about the car Consumer Reports gave a 99/100 to?
 
2013-05-09 12:37:26 PM  

NightOwl2255: Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?


Yes.
 
2013-05-09 12:37:51 PM  

MrSteve007: Silly_Sot: If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.

The one federal government *loan* they got is being repaid, and repaid early - considering it's a *loan,* taxpayers are going to be repaid, with interest.

As for the subsidies, the tax credit currently goes to the *buyers* of any electric vehicle, regardless of brand (I can't speak to any subsudies the company may have received from the state of Cali).

I'll be curious what people will attempt to biatch about when Tesla repays their loan in full. They've already made what most consider to be the best automobile ever built, with the best warranty and depreciation guarantee ever seen for a car - and it just happens to be electric & built entirely by Californians.


The electronics are made by a factory in Idaho
 
2013-05-09 12:39:08 PM  

Cyberluddite: It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.


I guess I should've looked at the stock price before I wrote that.  On it's earning announcement, as of right now it's currently up about $15 a share--about 28%--for today alone.
 
2013-05-09 12:39:13 PM  

madgonad: majestic: Even if you can "fill-up" at a supercharger station, who has an entire hour to refuel? I can fuel up my vehicle in 5 minutes and be back on the road. It's always seemed to me that the way to make the EV feasible is to have battery swap out stations. Pull in with a nearly depleted battery and the station attendant swaps it out for a fresh one in under 10 minutes.  The station recharges the used batteries for later swaps.

My thoughts exactly.

I envisioned a modular battery standard - say 10Kw per battery, which would be about the size of a regular car battery. You could stop ANYWHERE, take out you eight batteries and swap them for eight fresh ones, and go. You could even purchase 'extras' to carry with you if you had a legitimate need to go even longer distances at time (or in case of emergency). Each 10Kw battery would be good for a bit over 30 miles of travel in a typical EV.
A convenience store/gas station - heck, even a restaurant, would have a supercharger installed and buy a set of batteries to use as a pool for exchanges. A typical swap might be $1 each. Maybe $2 as a convenience (since it is a convenience thing, not to be used every day).


Great idea. Use the existing BBQ propane tank business as a model.
 
2013-05-09 12:40:50 PM  

Cyberluddite: Cyberluddite: It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.

I guess I should've looked at the stock price before I wrote that.  On it's earning announcement, as of right now it's currently up about $15 a share--about 28%--for today alone.


A ton of mouthbreathers shorted the stock at about $24.  Something like 40 percent of the overall shares.  They are just realizing that they farked themselves.  As they stampede the stock will keep going up.

/Wish I had bought a few months ago...
 
2013-05-09 12:40:55 PM  

Hollie Maea: Either way, bricking is 100 percent covered by warranty, no questions asked.


That's new.
It was not that way when the first round of bricks were reported.

That's why I asked.
 
2013-05-09 12:41:22 PM  

NightOwl2255: At what point is its feet off the ground? According to one Farker, Tesla S is the best car ever produced. Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?


Actually, it's Consumer Reports that is saying that - which is the linked article and headline of this thread . . .

And they are standing on their own now. They're repaying their debt to the taxpayer 2x's as fast as they're contractually obligated and making a profit for shareholders.
 
2013-05-09 12:42:33 PM  

madgonad: Migrating Coconut: Meh, call me when they have a hydrogen car that all i have to do is pour water in to fill up.

You do know that water is the stable exhaust product for hydrogen cars, right? No stored energy in it (unless you are talking abour Mr Fusion).


A hydrogen can would spew DHMO? ZOMFG!
 
2013-05-09 12:42:49 PM  

unlikely: That's new.
It was not that way when the first round of bricks were reported.

That's why I asked.


Bricking has NEVER been an issue for the Model S.  So your statement "Does IT still brick" in response to the article about the Model S was wrong.
 
2013-05-09 12:43:36 PM  

NightOwl2255: So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.


So let me get this straight, you paid 100K for a car and can't afford to buy airline tickets to get across the country?
 
2013-05-09 12:43:54 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: NightOwl2255: Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?

Yes.


So should Exxon, but here we are..
 
2013-05-09 12:45:49 PM  
NightOwl2255:  Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel.

This is the car we're discussing here.

images.thecarconnection.com

This is the car your it-allegedly-happened-one-time-in-the-entire-model-run story was about:

images.thetruthaboutcars.com

Different car, different system, different era, and different warranty.  You might as well talk about how Ford Pinto fuel tanks exploded on contact as proof that the Ford Focus is a firetrap.
 
2013-05-09 12:47:04 PM  

Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: So, not exactly 100% false, huh? I accept your apology.

We were talking specifically of the Model S.  You were also talking in the present tense.  So yes, your statement was 100 percent false.


The article I linked to way up-thread was on the Roadster. I never said the S would brick.
 
2013-05-09 12:48:26 PM  

Hollie Maea: So your statement "Does IT still brick" in response to the article about the Model S was wrong.


And for most people looking at buying a car, a Tesla is a Tesla. Like a Ford is a Ford.

How much do they pay you to defend the indefensible on obscure boards full of people who could never afford one of their cars anyway?
 
2013-05-09 12:50:27 PM  

The Bestest: J. Frank Parnell: NightOwl2255: Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?

Yes.

So should Exxon, but here we are..


That's more about oil companies having so much political influence. They can have the president tap dance at their child's birthday if they wanted to.
 
2013-05-09 12:50:38 PM  

MrSteve007: Actually, it's Consumer Reports that is saying that - which is the linked article and headline of this thread . . .


Which you then turned into "most are saying".

MrSteve007: And they are standing on their own now. They're repaying their debt to the taxpayer 2x's as fast as they're contractually obligated and making a profit for shareholders.


From the Tesla web site: At the base price of $62,400, including the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit.
 
2013-05-09 12:51:16 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Whose ass did you pull that out of?

Damn, you have some issues. You make silly statements like Tesla charging stations being "all over the place when in fact, they are in in two states only.

Now, as for my ass. In the case of a Tesla, you apparently can't just do a deep and loving recharge: no battery version of the dent wizard. When the battery bricks, or fully discharges, you replace the battery pack at a cost of around $40,000 ($32,000 plus labor and taxes). It's not covered by the Tesla warranty or car insurance. You can buy a $12,000 replacement policy that would cover a worn out battery but not a dead-from-total-discharge battery while the car is under warranty.
This was from Feb 2012. Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel.


The Roadster is not a Model S.

Also from February 2012

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57384571-76/tesla-you-cant-brick-m od el-s-batteries/

"Model S batteries also have the ability to protect themselves as they approach very low charge levels by going into a 'deep sleep' mode that lowers the loss even further. A Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge. At that point the car can still sit for many months. Of course you can drive a Model S to 0 percent charge, but even in that circumstance, if you plug it in within 30 days, the battery will recover normally," Tesla said on its Web site today.
 
2013-05-09 12:51:30 PM  

NightOwl2255: I never said the S would brick.


You responded in the affirmative to UNLIKELY, who stated that the Model S would brick.  Your exact words, responding to a statement about the Model S, were:

 if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

That's why I said your statement was 100 percent false.  It is also no longer true for the Roadster--a simple software update that turns off all parasitic loads at a certain depth of discharge was all it took to fix the issue.
 
2013-05-09 12:51:40 PM  

NightOwl2255: Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: So, not exactly 100% false, huh? I accept your apology.
We were talking specifically of the Model S.  You were also talking in the present tense.  So yes, your statement was 100 percent false.
The article I linked to way up-thread was on the Roadster. I never said the S would brick.


NightOwl2255: FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?
just like a regular car, you mean?
No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


One of these posts is not like the other . . .
 
2013-05-09 12:53:01 PM  

unlikely: Like a Ford is a Ford.


So a Ford Focus is at high risk of rollover following blowout, just because a Ford Explorer was once?  Christ that's dumb....
 
2013-05-09 12:53:49 PM  

Silly_Sot: If Tesla is so great, cut off all government funding and subsidies, both direct and indirect. Then, since Tesla is so great, it will support itself.

Do the same for all other forms of automobile and energy, too.

Cut them all off. If we are a capitalist country, then let us practice capitalism--including capitalism for rich people.


Exactly. But we aren't a capitalist country. Haven't been one for 200+ years (when the first regulations started creeping in). Our political-economy is, currently, a mixed economy sub-form of fascism (private means of production w/ state control/oversight) that could be called "democratic interest-group corporate socialism." It favors bigger business interests over smaller ones since the bigger ones have greater lobbying access and bribery abilities.
 
2013-05-09 12:54:54 PM  

unlikely: Hollie Maea: So your statement "Does IT still brick" in response to the article about the Model S was wrong.

And for most people looking at buying a car, a Tesla is a Tesla. Like a Ford is a Ford.


Yeah, MOST people who get a car don't even know the difference between an F-150 and a Focus and a Mustang.
They walk in and are like "Gimme a Ford!" and just take whatever.
That's a lot of DURP even for Fark, congratulations.
 
2013-05-09 12:56:03 PM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: And they are standing on their own now. They're repaying their debt to the taxpayer 2x's as fast as they're contractually obligated and making a profit for shareholders.

From the Tesla web site: At the base price of $62,400, including the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit.


That tax credit doesn't go to the company. It goes to the person purchasing any electric car. Now you're trying to equate a universal personal tax credit to direct support to Tesla.
 
2013-05-09 12:56:48 PM  
Cyberluddite:  You might as well talk about how Ford Pinto fuel tanks exploded on contact as proof that the Ford Focus is a firetrap.

http://www.warrantyguide.co.uk/vehicle-recall-4C02F926B4042E4680257 5F4 002DB8F9-ford-focus-recall

All I did was ask if the Tesla would still brick if the battery ran down.

Tesla had a problem with that in the past. Documented fact.
When they were having problems with it, they did not cover it under warranty. Documented fact.
That tarnished the brand identity in my eyes. And a lot of others' eyes. Documented... fact. Opinion.

So I asked, since Consumer Reports gave them such a great review, if they've fixed the problem.
The answer is "Yes, they fixed it. AND they now cover it with warranty."

Any douchey defensive answer beyond that is really not doing your company any good.
 
2013-05-09 12:57:48 PM  
NightOwl2255:
So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.

So it's inadequate for a task that the average person will do zero times in their lifetime.

Yeah, throw it away - it's useless.
 
2013-05-09 12:58:22 PM  

Hollie Maea: unlikely: Like a Ford is a Ford.

So a Ford Focus is at high risk of rollover following blowout, just because a Ford Explorer was once?  Christ that's dumb....


Yup. A Ford is a Ford.
 
2013-05-09 12:59:47 PM  

Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: I never said the S would brick.

You responded in the affirmative to UNLIKELY, who stated that the Model S would brick.  Your exact words, responding to a statement about the Model S, were:

 if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

That's why I said your statement was 100 percent false.  It is also no longer true for the Roadster--a simple software update that turns off all parasitic loads at a certain depth of discharge was all it took to fix the issue.


Do you see any mention of the S in the below exchange. FlashHarry had obviously heard about the issue with the battery bricking. unlikely was making it like letting the battery drain was the same as letting a car run out of gas. I was pointing out, correctly, that there was an issue with the battery bricking, not like running out of gas and needing a recharge. No mention of the S model in particular.

NightOwl2255: FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?

just like a regular car, you mean?

No, what he is talking about is if you let one completely run dead, the entire battery will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

 
2013-05-09 01:00:05 PM  
BTW, subby, nice job on the headline. I can't believe I'm the 104th poster, and nobody's given you this:

thegeekydream.files.wordpress.com

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-09 01:03:08 PM  

unlikely: Yup. A Ford is a Ford.


A bad fan causes risk of rollover?  I'm not going to defend Ford as a great company, but your statement that people don't distinguish between models is one of the dumbest things I have seen in a long time.
 
2013-05-09 01:06:46 PM  

MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: And they are standing on their own now. They're repaying their debt to the taxpayer 2x's as fast as they're contractually obligated and making a profit for shareholders.

From the Tesla web site: At the base price of $62,400, including the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit.

That tax credit doesn't go to the company. It goes to the person purchasing any electric car. Now you're trying to equate a universal personal tax credit to direct support to Tesla.


Cherry picking are ya?

Here's what I was responding to:

BHShaman: Innovation often requires Gov. assistance to get its feet off the ground, see: Railroads, Mail Service, Telephony, Internet, Tons of Military and NASA applications, Hospitals, etc.


He was saying that innovation (electric cars) needs government help to get off the ground. What I asked was at what point does that help end (not to Tesla alone, to the entire industry). If, according to you, Tesla is doing so well, building the best car every made, paying off loans, making money, isn't that a indication that they no longer need the subsides?
 
2013-05-09 01:06:47 PM  

Hollie Maea: unlikely: Yup. A Ford is a Ford.

A bad fan causes risk of rollover?  I'm not going to defend Ford as a great company, but your statement that people don't distinguish between models is one of the dumbest things I have seen in a long time.


Whatever.

To most people paying attention, Tesla is the company whose cars brick when they run out of juice. No matter how unjust you think that is, the PR debacle that was the bricked-batteries-no-warranty went far and wide.

You being a complete dick to people who honestly and sincerely try to figure out if that has been resolved is not helping your reputation. Not even a little.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense to you.
 
2013-05-09 01:11:05 PM  

unlikely: All I did was ask if the Tesla would still brick if the battery ran down.
Any douchey defensive answer beyond that is really not doing your company any good.


Yes, I know.  You asked a valid question, you got an answer, and you accepted that answer, and you seem to have read up on the issue and understood it, and I'm glad.

Any douchey responses I may have written here were not directed at you, nor should you think they were.  They were directed at the particular individual whose posts I was responding to, and that wasn't you.  If you thought otherwise, I'm sorry you got that wrong impression, but they're definitely not a response to anything you said in here, nor should they be.
 
2013-05-09 01:12:33 PM  

Hollie Maea: unlikely: That's new.
It was not that way when the first round of bricks were reported.

That's why I asked.

Bricking has NEVER been an issue for the Model S.  So your statement "Does IT still brick" in response to the article about the Model S was wrong.


But the batteries do, in fact, still brick when run completely out of charge.
 
2013-05-09 01:12:51 PM  

NightOwl2255: Tesla is doing so well, building the best car every made, paying off loans, making money, isn't that a indication that they no longer need the subsides?


The subsidies are about encouraging people to embrace new technology. When people don't need any more encouragement they will stop, but people like yourself seem awfully committed to a technological dinosaur from 1860, so that may take some time.
 
2013-05-09 01:14:38 PM  

enik: Comrade Reports never met a hybrid or cheap car (non-American, of course) they didn't love.


Huh, its almost like cheap American cars are total crap, and have been for a very long time, especially when compared to Japanese cars made in the US.  When I asked my dad to name the last market leader small car GM made he listed one he bought before I was born.  I am 27.
 
2013-05-09 01:15:02 PM  

fatbear: NightOwl2255:
So, you leave the left coast on a 300 mile trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.

So it's inadequate for a task that the average person will do zero times in their lifetime.

Yeah, throw it away - it's useless.


Now have it. It's a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on. And once you travel that 150 miles you are SOL for hours while it recharges. That's if you can find somewhere to recharge. Most people will make a 300 mile car trip in their life. As a commuter (second car) car, it's the tops.
 
2013-05-09 01:18:28 PM  

NightOwl2255: Now have it. It's a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on. And once you travel that 150 miles you are SOL for hours while it recharges. That's if you can find somewhere to recharge. Most people will make a 300 mile car trip in their life. As a commuter (second car) car, it's the tops.


Here's his daily schedule:

4:00 AM : Wake up
5:00 AM : Start Drive to Work in California
10:00 AM Arrive at Work in New York

Any car that can't get him there is SUBSTANDARD.
 
2013-05-09 01:19:11 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: NightOwl2255: Tesla is doing so well, building the best car every made, paying off loans, making money, isn't that a indication that they no longer need the subsides?

The subsidies are about encouraging people to embrace new technology. When people don't need any more encouragement they will stop, but people like yourself seem awfully committed to a technological dinosaur from 1860, so that may take some time.


I see you have completely missed the point. Should they be getting government help? Why the hell not, everyone else seems to be. But, don't piss on my leg and say it's raining. Tesla is doing so well in no small part due to the government help. Until all subsides end, Tesla well continue to be sucking at the mother teat.
 
2013-05-09 01:20:44 PM  

NightOwl2255: He was saying that innovation (electric cars) needs government help to get off the ground. What I asked was at what point does that help end (not to Tesla alone, to the entire industry). If, according to you, Tesla is doing so well, building the best car every made, paying off loans, making money, isn't that a indication that they no longer need the subsides?


As I said, Tesla isn't getting that subsudy, the buyers of the car are (they're the ones who fill out that line on their annual tax return - not Tesla). I fully believe Tesla would do just fine without it, but that's not how the law was written. And as per the tax code, once they are deemed sucessful by the market (with more than 200,000 models sold), that model no longer qualifies for the credit.

With that said, do you think Nissan shouldn't have the buyers of the LEAF qualify, because Nissan makes a profit?
 
2013-05-09 01:24:27 PM  

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


It never will be with the electric car.
 
2013-05-09 01:25:03 PM  
NightOwl2255:  a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on.

One of my two friends who has one drives like a bat out of hell (the car he replaced with his Tesla is a Porsche Carrera 4S, so he's not exactly a slow driver--though the Tesla outperforms the Porsche), and his car has the performance package (with the higher-output motor that sucks up more juice).  He drove his from Sacramento to the Sierra (near Lake Tahoe) to the Bay Area a few weeks ago on one charge--probably 250 miles.

Real world experience trumps whatever else you might pull out of your ass.
 
2013-05-09 01:25:04 PM  

NightOwl2255: fatbear: NightOwl2255:
So, you leave the left coast on a 300 mile trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.

So it's inadequate for a task that the average person will do zero times in their lifetime.

Yeah, throw it away - it's useless.

Now have it. It's a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on. And once you travel that 150 miles you are SOL for hours while it recharges. That's if you can find somewhere to recharge. Most people will make a 300 mile car trip in their life. As a commuter (second car) car, it's the tops.


Now that you've changed your argument by 90%, it makes sense.

Change "electricity" to "petrol" in your argument and you have a valid defense against the early automobile - and we all know what a complete failure THAT turned out to be.

Why piss on the early adopters? They're going to make it affordable for the rest of us
 
2013-05-09 01:25:15 PM  

NightOwl2255: I see you have completely missed the point. Should they be getting government help? Why the hell not, everyone else seems to be. But, don't piss on my leg and say it's raining. Tesla is doing so well in no small part due to the government help. Until all subsides end, Tesla well continue to be sucking at the mother teat.


Like someone else already pointed out, oil companies have received trillions in subsidies, and also tax breaks and whatever else they want. And they've been profitable for over a century. If you have a problem with companies 'sucking at the mother teat' and taking your tax dollars when they don't need them, look no further than oil companies.

Whatever help Tesla gets in miniscule in comparison, and can actually be justified because it's new tech which should be adopted.
 
2013-05-09 01:25:16 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: NightOwl2255: Now have it. It's a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on. And once you travel that 150 miles you are SOL for hours while it recharges. That's if you can find somewhere to recharge. Most people will make a 300 mile car trip in their life. As a commuter (second car) car, it's the tops.

Here's his daily schedule:

4:00 AM : Wake up
5:00 AM : Start Drive to Work in California
10:00 AM Arrive at Work in New York

Any car that can't get him there is SUBSTANDARD.


Damn right!

Any car that can't go 200 miles without needing a several hour charge (if you can find a place to recharge) is very substandard for my needs.
 
2013-05-09 01:27:11 PM  
NightOwl2255:
At what point is its feet off the ground? According to one Farker, Tesla S is the best car ever produced. Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?

I'm glad my bank does not feel that way about my mortgage.

"Hello, Mr. BHShaman? We have been doing some analysis and we have found that ow you have a 30year loan at a really low interest rate. I'm sure you value how that low interest rate allows you to invest money other places like; enhanced education, additional goods and services, or otherwise manage YOUR money the way you like. But, here at Big Banking we have run your credit and it seems like you making more than enough money to repay your loan NOW. Rather than allow you to adhere to the terms of our agreement, we are going to help you get all bootstrappy by requiring you to pay off your balance more expeditiously by accelerating your payment terms."
 
2013-05-09 01:28:15 PM  

Intrepid00: knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.

It never will be with the electric car.


People who predict the future using the word "never" are never wrong.
 
2013-05-09 01:28:16 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.


I don't understand.  It recharges just fine at the airport or train station, both of which are within 50 miles of me.  Wait...have I suddenly become the world's biggest moron and am actually DRIVING across the country?
 
2013-05-09 01:29:17 PM  

NightOwl2255: Now have it. It's a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on. And once you travel that 150 miles you are SOL for hours while it recharges. That's if you can find somewhere to recharge. Most people will make a 300 mile car trip in their life. As a commuter (second car) car, it's the tops.


Motortrend did 285 miles from LA/Vegas, in 101 degree heat, with the A/C on and traveling at 65 mph. They did three different 250+ mile interstate trips over mountain passes, using all different methods, and made it every time.
 
2013-05-09 01:32:24 PM  

Cyberluddite: Real world experience trumps whatever else you might pull out of your ass.


You really are a dick, huh? No worries, lots of them on here.

As for my ass, you seem infatuated with it, here's where I pulled it out of:

www.teslamotors.com

According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.
 
2013-05-09 01:33:18 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Whatever help Tesla gets in miniscule in comparison, and can actually be justified because it's new tech which should be adopted.


Fine, no problem. Just don't try and claim otherwise.
 
2013-05-09 01:35:43 PM  

BHShaman: NightOwl2255:
At what point is its feet off the ground? According to one Farker, Tesla S is the best car ever produced. Shouldn't they be able to stand on their own by now?

I'm glad my bank does not feel that way about my mortgage.

"Hello, Mr. BHShaman? We have been doing some analysis and we have found that ow you have a 30year loan at a really low interest rate. I'm sure you value how that low interest rate allows you to invest money other places like; enhanced education, additional goods and services, or otherwise manage YOUR money the way you like. But, here at Big Banking we have run your credit and it seems like you making more than enough money to repay your loan NOW. Rather than allow you to adhere to the terms of our agreement, we are going to help you get all bootstrappy by requiring you to pay off your balance more expeditiously by accelerating your payment terms."


Poor analogy is poor. Let's talk about section 8 housing. They are getting subsides (you do know what those are, yes?) not just a loan.
 
2013-05-09 01:36:13 PM  

NightOwl2255: According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.


See, now you're really not making any sense. As someone who drives an EV everyday (and as you can see in that graph), electric cars friggen love traffic. Between the reduced wind resistance and the regnerative braking, you easily see range double. I'll often see a boost to ~125 mile range in my LEAF while in traffic, even though it's rated for 75 miles.

Also, the 12v loads (lights, radio, etc) do almost nothing to range. We're talking 0.1% sort of change here.
 
2013-05-09 01:39:07 PM  

unlikely: To most people paying attention, Tesla is the company whose cars brick when they run out of juice. No matter how unjust you think that is, the PR debacle that was the bricked-batteries-no-warranty went far and wide.

You being a complete dick to people who honestly and sincerely try to figure out if that has been resolved is not helping your reputation. Not even a little.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense to you.


Honestly, I don't have much beef with your question.  My issue is more with Night Owl, who claims to have known better but still implied that this is an issue.  My biggest beef with you is the idea that no one distinguishes between models.  That seems odd.

All that said, I wouldn't describe someone who latches onto a single breathless article on an issue and then never follows up on it as "people paying attention".
 
2013-05-09 01:39:14 PM  

NightOwl2255: According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.


The radio isn't going to meaningfully impact your range.  The AC will, of course.  But traffic actually increases your range.  The rules are different for electric cars...
 
2013-05-09 01:42:11 PM  

MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: Now have it. It's a $70-80-90K car that might make it 150 miles at 75 with the AC on. And once you travel that 150 miles you are SOL for hours while it recharges. That's if you can find somewhere to recharge. Most people will make a 300 mile car trip in their life. As a commuter (second car) car, it's the tops.

Motortrend did 285 miles from LA/Vegas, in 101 degree heat, with the A/C on and traveling at 65 mph. They did three different 250+ mile interstate trips over mountain passes, using all different methods, and made it every time.


I didn't have time to read the entire articel, I will later, but I did see this bit: Of course, as you'd expect, the day I go looking for traffic, on a Friday at rush hour no less, there is none to be found. Semis and commuter laden SUVs blow by me at 80 mph as I putt from the I-210 west to 605 south. I should be door handle to door handle with my fellow Angelenos, but instead they're giving my 52 mph cruising speed the one finger salute. Where is everyone? I soon find out. Just before 4pm, traffic grinds to a halt due at our westward connection, the 105 freeway. As my average speed drops to 8 mph, projected range jumps to between 28 and 56 miles.
 
2013-05-09 01:49:33 PM  

Parkanzky: The AC will, of course.


Not as much as you think.  Air conditioners take about 2kW of power.  So running the AC for an hour will knock about 5 miles of range off of a Model S.
 
2013-05-09 01:57:10 PM  

AntonChigger: NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Tesla did receive a small part of its initial capital in an interest-bearing loan from the Department of Energy--which it's paying back on schedule out of corporate profits, under a program set up by the Bush administration. Otherwise, it's completely privately capitalized. This isn't Fiskar. It's doing great--which I'm happy about, as I bought a couple hundred shares a few months ago and the price has gone up about 25% or more since then.

Tesla Motors enjoys massive financial support from the Federal government, as well as various state and local governments: The Department of Energy (DOE) provided Tesla with $465 mln of low-interest loans under its Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program, buyers of the Tesla Model S luxury sedan gain $7,500 of Federal tax credits (at an annual cost to taxpayers of $150 mln at 'full output' of 20,000 Model S sedans per year) and state and local government incentives include a $2,500 rebate for Model S buyers in California, sales tax waivers, free parking, free charging and authorized travel in car pool lanes. Electric vehicle charging stations have also been subsidized, with Federal tax credits ranging from 30% of the cost of a home charger, up to a $1,000 tax credit, to $30,000 for the installation of commercial chargers. In addition, government environmental credit schemes forced other auto makers to pay ...


They also lie about the numbers (while we can see the numbers in the chart they, themselves, posted) in an earlier reply. Perhaps they think we won't see that they're telling lies? Perhaps they think that if they bleat loud enough the other sheep will follow? Either way, they're telling straight up lies and it is obviously intentional.
 
2013-05-09 01:58:57 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.


To be fair, if you are buying an $80K car, you are probably flying on the cross country trip. If you bought a Tesla, you aren't hauling your dorm room back home at the end of the school year in one.
 
2013-05-09 02:01:05 PM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.

You need a new talking point. Tesla now has an unlimited, "no fault" battery warranty. Even if an owner deliberately trys to destroy or abuse the battery, they'll replace it for free.

Calm down. I could not care less about Tesla. I was just repeating a story, that happens to be true.


Except isn't the story not true if they are actually covered under warranty?
 
2013-05-09 02:01:25 PM  
NightOwl2255:

Poor analogy is poor.

No, it is completely the right analogy.
Tesla got a LOAN, at rates agreeable to both parties, and they are paying it back in full on the schedule agreed upon. Unlike my bank loan on my house, the Gov. also sees secondary benefits like; other automakers being pressured to keep up, e-stations being built around the country to meet the demand, and future capable technologies that larger auto makers might see as cutting into their core business (gas powered transportation).

Unless Gov is paying for the facilities which Tesla uses, without any amount of compensation.....
Telsa is not at all like a person requiring housing assistance via Section 8.

Next argument from you will probably be about ObamaCell....

Last post from me in this dialog.  Out
 
2013-05-09 02:04:37 PM  

snowshovel: NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.

To be fair, if you are buying an $80K car, you are probably flying on the cross country trip. If you bought a Tesla, you aren't hauling your dorm room back home at the end of the school year in one.


Elon Musk's cryptic tweet a couple hours ago . . . "There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged throughout the country faster than you could fill a gas tank."

I'm thinking Tesla battery swaps. That would make sense, since their new warranty covers everything involving the battery.
 
2013-05-09 02:05:45 PM  

majestic: Even if you can "fill-up" at a supercharger station, who has an entire hour to refuel? I can fuel up my vehicle in 5 minutes and be back on the road. It's always seemed to me that the way to make the EV feasible is to have battery swap out stations. Pull in with a nearly depleted battery and the station attendant swaps it out for a fresh one in under 10 minutes.  The station recharges the used batteries for later swaps.


According to Wiki, the Tesla Roadster's battery weighs ~1000 lbs. http://en .wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Battery_system

I can't find any specifics for the weight of the Tesla S battery, but considering the increase in capicity it will be larger and heavier. These batteries are very large, very heavy objects.

In order to have any sort of efficient swapping system, you would need some type of standardized battery across many models and makes of cars. You would also need to ensure that the battery is easily accessible.

In order to have any sort of efficient swapping system, you would need some type of standardized battery across many models and makes of cars. You would also need to ensure that the battery is easily accessible. Neither of these is currently true. In order to implement any sort of swappable battery auto manufactures will be forced to make many design compromises. It is likely that a car with a swappable battery would therefore have less range than a similar car with a non-swappable battery.

A battery swap is only going to be useful for people traveling long distances. Most people do not do this on any sort of consistent basis. So the market for swaps is not going to be large.

I just don't see swappable batteries happening. I can't see how a system could be implemented that would swap out a battery quickly and for reasonable cost.
 
2013-05-09 02:10:38 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Whose ass did you pull that out of?

Damn, you have some issues. You make silly statements like Tesla charging stations being "all over the place when in fact, they are in in two states only.

Now, as for my ass. In the case of a Tesla, you apparently can't just do a deep and loving recharge: no battery version of the dent wizard. When the battery bricks, or fully discharges, you replace the battery pack at a cost of around $40,000 ($32,000 plus labor and taxes). It's not covered by the Tesla warranty or car insurance. You can buy a $12,000 replacement policy that would cover a worn out battery but not a dead-from-total-discharge battery while the car is under warranty.
This was from Feb 2012. Seems like they have made some changes, but, Skippy, it don't make it POA materiel.


You, yourself, posted a picture earlier that indicated the chargers are in three states. The only substantial difference between the two numbers is the degree to which it indicates your ability to be dishonest.

Why are you lying?
 
2013-05-09 02:11:01 PM  

give me doughnuts: R.A.Danny: If you can afford an $80,000 second car I'm very happy for you. Or if your needs make the relatively short range feasible.


The average American commuter spent (in 2011) about 50 minutes on the road. Even if you combine that with around-town errands and/or schlepping the kids to and fro most people's driving needs could be easily met by this car, or it's cheaper brethren in the near future.

I see the typical 2-car family of 2020 having one all-electric and one hybrid.*


*Barring GOP presidencies, asteroid strike, zombie apocalypse, or other horrific disasters.


I wasn't being sarcastic for once. They seem to be great cars. Not designed for road trips, not for loooong commutes. They have a niche and seem to fill it very well.
 
2013-05-09 02:12:09 PM  
Elon Musk sues anyone who gives them bad reviews.

I imagine Consumer Reports just didn't want the hassle.
 
2013-05-09 02:14:18 PM  
Slightly related since electric cars will increase the demand for electricity, has anyone else noticed that the price of solar panels has dropped faster than a pair of panties at a frat kegger? Down 80% over the past four years. It's crazy... but the good kind of crazy, not the show up at your door at 3am declaring never ending love kind of crazy.

/Mostly because solar doesn't work very well at 3am
 
2013-05-09 02:15:06 PM  

MrSteve007: I'm thinking Tesla battery swaps. That would make sense, since their new warranty covers everything involving the battery.


I don't see them going down the battery swap road.  They should know better than that.
 
2013-05-09 02:17:15 PM  
NightOwl2255:
I didn't have time to read the entire articel, I will later, but I did see this bit: Of course, as you'd expect, the day I go looking for traffic, on a Friday at rush hour no less, there is none to be found. Semis and commuter laden SUVs blow by me at 80 mph as I putt from the I-210 west to 605 south. I should be door handle to door handle with my fellow Angelenos, but instead they're giving my 52 mph cruising speed the one finger salute. Where is everyone? I soon find out. Just before 4pm, traffic grinds to a halt due at our westward connection, the 105 freeway. As my average speed drops to 8 mph, projected range jumps to between 28 and 56 miles.


Now the question that needs to really be asked is, what is the posted speed limit of that road? Honest question. I don't live in CA so I have no idea what those roads are like. Going 52 in a posted 50 zone is fine. Conversely going 52 in a posted 65 is just stupid.
 
2013-05-09 02:17:55 PM  

Cyberluddite: NightOwl2255:   Tesla outperforms the Porsche

Carrera 4S  ,

Outperforms it how?
 
2013-05-09 02:18:18 PM  

fluffy2097: Elon Musk sues anyone who gives them bad reviews.

I imagine Consumer Reports just didn't want the hassle.


Really? He sued the NYTimes? When?
 
2013-05-09 02:18:21 PM  

NightOwl2255: Any car that can't go 200 miles without needing a several hour charge (if you can find a place to recharge) is very substandard for my needs.


Then don't buy one.

From moped to 18-wheeler, we have different vehicles for different purposes.  There's not such thing as an "all-purpose vehicle".
 
2013-05-09 02:18:39 PM  

EngineerAU: Slightly related since electric cars will increase the demand for electricity, has anyone else noticed that the price of solar panels has dropped faster than a pair of panties at a frat kegger? Down 80% over the past four years. It's crazy... but the good kind of crazy, not the show up at your door at 3am declaring never ending love kind of crazy.

/Mostly because solar doesn't work very well at 3am


Yep. I'm looking to double the 13kw solar array on the roof of our office in the coming months; get the place up to 50% powered by on-site solar.

The price we paid for 10kw of PV array in 2007 was $10 a watt ($100,000). Today we can do it for about $3.50 a watt.

Interestingly, at least in this area of the country, the overal ROI date always ends up being just about the same, regardless of when we install the panels. In 2007, the ROI date was 12 years out 2019. In 2013, the ROI date is 6.5 years out, in 2019.
 
2013-05-09 02:22:07 PM  

Hollie Maea: MrSteve007: I'm thinking Tesla battery swaps. That would make sense, since their new warranty covers everything involving the battery.

I don't see them going down the battery swap road.  They should know better than that.


Yeah, I agree. Although, I can't technically figure out how they'd supply 85 kWh of juice to the battery in under 5 minutes, without: a. blacking out a couple city blocks and; b. blowing up the battery.
 
2013-05-09 02:22:08 PM  

majestic: Tesla outperforms the Porsche Carrera 4S


Google, how does it work?

2nd result.
 
2013-05-09 02:30:50 PM  

fatbear: majestic: Tesla outperforms the Porsche Carrera 4S

Google, how does it work?

2nd result.


Well, I assumed he was talking about the new model, not the roadster. Even so, you are talking about a 17 year old Porsche in that test. My truck outperforms a Ferrari!
 
2013-05-09 02:32:56 PM  
I would buy a Model S in a hot second if I had a garage.
(Teens in this neighborhood would steal that charging cable nightly.)
 
2013-05-09 02:36:20 PM  
http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/corvette

madgonad: FlashHarry: NightOwl2255: An uproar recently ignited on automotive blogs over a post about a Tesla Roadster whose battery needed replacement after its owner parked the car, low on charge and unplugged, for more than two months. The battery, which had fully discharged, could not be revived.

it sounds like the manual and whatnot stated that you shouldn't let the battery fully discharge, and yet this guy did just that. which would be like driving your car without oil. in any case, $30k for a battery does seem insane.

Costs for these batteries run around $500 per KWh. So an 85KWh being sold a $30k is actually a pretty good deal. They are either subsidizing a bit, or they have made good progress in getting battery costs down.

Remember, that means that the car itself costs over $50k without a battery - which is pretty damn expensive. You can buy a brand new Corvette, with an engine, for the cost of the car alone.


I'm pretty sure you can't buy the Corvette with all the trimmings for $50k to get it up to the luxury car level that Consumer Reports will gush over (although I think they are available now for less than the cost of the Tesla battery).  The big catch: close enough to vette mileage: 20mpg (source): number of gallons burned over 100,000 miles: 5000.  Miles available at $3.00/gal: 200,000, miles available at $6.00: 100,000.

Those numbers make me think that a hybrid with a much smaller battery makes sense (more like a volt than a prius, since priuses are more about optimizing the gas engine).  The tesla method means I'm paying roughly the same cost for a battery as the vette is paying for gas (assuming it lasts somewhere between 100k-200k), but then paying for electricity and (or not getting) interest on the battery.

If you go the volt method (hybrid that plugs in and heavily uses the battery) you should be able to dump half your miles on a battery that is 1/10th that.  The catch is right now you have to choose between strong electric range with a lousy gas engine (volt) or a great gas engine (mileagewise) that hates to use the battery (plug-in prius) and cars that are bad at both (pretty much every other hybrid out there).

Considering how much money is poured into iphones and androids, it shouldn't be a surprise that battery tech is booming.  Last I heard, Black & Decker no longer designs NiMH battery chargers because Li-ion batteries are too cheap (they will still build Ni-Cd ones, so it isn't all about selling a whole different array of spare batteries (at least not the chemistry change)).
 
2013-05-09 02:43:36 PM  
What a cute toy
 
2013-05-09 02:44:52 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.


You realize any car will have a similar curve for range vs speed?  I don't know why you feel the need to point out that going faster decreases your range, when it's not unique to electric cars.  These are not cross country vehicles, they are (incredibly fun) commuter vehicles.  Are they economical vs gasoline cars currently?  Definitely not.  But the technology is getting there.  And it's certainly a better investment than the midlife crisis vettes that seem oh so popular.  Probably get driven further, too.
 
2013-05-09 02:49:39 PM  

flaminio: In the Bay Area, I see Nissan Leafs all the time, and a Model S at least two or three times a day. Part of the reason is the little white sticker that lets you use the HOV lane. But since most families around here have two cars, it makes perfect sense to have an electric commuter and a gas powered long range cruiser.

Or, you could have only the electric, and the times you need to take a road trip, rent. As gas prices increase, this is a viable financial model.


Some neighbors of a family member have a Nissan Leaf and a Chevy Traverse. Was talking with them last week since I'm also thinking about a Leaf as a second car. He said that his dad got foaming-at-the-mouth mad, claiming that if there was an emergency they'd be trapped with the 80 to 100 mile range of the Leaf. Somehow his dad couldn't grasp the concept that the Traverse was right there and has an almost 600 mile range on a single tank of gas.

/His dad sounds derpy
 
2013-05-09 02:50:34 PM  

MrSteve007: Although, I can't technically figure out how they'd supply 85 kWh of juice to the battery in under 5 minutes, without: a. blacking out a couple city blocks and; b. blowing up the battery.


Eh, what's a megawatt of power between friends. (I work at a solar factory that has 90 crystal pullers, so that's not much power around here.  At some rest area in Bumfark, AR it might take some infrastructure upgrades).  But yeah 12C isn't going to be good for the batteries.  He should forget about trying to make it exactly like a gas station and just plaster the country with 250kW chargers.  Those could charge the 85kW pack at 3C, which the batteries CAN take, and no one would care if it were as fast as a gas station, since you hardly ever would need to use it.
 
2013-05-09 02:50:40 PM  
tl;dr car is awesome, range excellent, charge time fast, luxury car's existence today makes affordable car possible tomorrow

************

I drive the car, and I love it. There are a few misunderstandings in this thread.

First, if you have the High Powered Wall Connector for your garage, and the twin chargers, you can do a full charge (0 range to 285 rated) in about 3.5 hours. For typical daily use... figure 50 miles... you can fully recharge in under an hour.

I plug the car in at night. In the morning, full charge. Every day.

I routinely drive 75-80, and my effective range on a standard (90% capacity) charge is about 175 miles. Using AC has almost zero impact. Curiously, it's the heat that reduces your range the most. I'm in SoCal, so that's usually not an issue. And the seat warmers can keep you very warm without any significant impact on your range.

The "you can brick your battery!" thing is baloney. As many have pointed out, the car won't let you do that anymore. And even if you somehow managed to do it anyway, they'll replace the battery for you free of charge. As far as I know, there are zero examples of this actually happening in the wild with a Tesla Model S.

This is a great car. Obviously it's not for everyone. It's very expensive. Not sure why this generates anger for Tesla, but car lust for BMW, Audi, Bentley, etc. Anger about the politics of it all? Look, I don't care about saving the planet. I just like driving a great car. And I think Tesla is running their company extremely well. They're paying back their loan, they're profitable at long last, and I believe they are the next great American business success story.

There will come a day soon where Tesla manufactures a great electric car in the 30-50K price range. Tesla can't get there without being profitable first, and proving the technology. They've done both with the Model S.
 
2013-05-09 02:51:08 PM  

Rezurok: Are they economical vs gasoline cars currently? Definitely not. But the technology is getting there.


Well, most reviewers say that the Tesla S outperforms and is more comfortable than comparable luxury sedans, so yeah, I'd say that model is economical to its competitors.

And as I'd pointed out in similar threads, I spend less on the fuel (electricity) + $199 monthly lease on a Leaf than I spend simply putting gas into my former 20mpg daily driver & commuting 56 miles a day.

In my position, it's the gasoline car that isn't as economical as the EV.
 
2013-05-09 02:51:57 PM  

MrSteve007: Elon Musk's cryptic tweet a couple hours ago . . . "There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged throughout the country faster than you could fill a gas tank."

I'm thinking Tesla battery swaps. That would make sense, since their new warranty covers everything involving the battery.


Have you seen the batteries on the Model S?  You'd have to disassemble the entire underside of the car in order to swap the battery.

Night Night Cream Puff: Now the question that needs to really be asked is, what is the posted speed limit of that road? Honest question. I don't live in CA so I have no idea what those roads are like. Going 52 in a posted 50 zone is fine. Conversely going 52 in a posted 65 is just stupid.


Most freeways have posted speed limits of either 55 or (occasionally) 65, but when traffic isn't too heavy many people ignore them and drive in excess of 70.
 
2013-05-09 02:56:00 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Real world experience trumps whatever else you might pull out of your ass.

You really are a dick, huh? No worries, lots of them on here.

As for my ass, you seem infatuated with it, here's where I pulled it out of:

[www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.


Are you a little slow?  You can't quote the mileage for 75mph and then say "hope you don't run into traffic".  You do realize what traffic does, right?  Protip:  It doesn't mean you keep driving at 75mph and not move anywhere.  It means you slow down and your mileage increases as a result of going slower.  If you stop, guess how much power an electric car uses?  And a radio?  Do you have any idea how long a car radio runs on a typical shiatty lead acid battery?  Do you honestly think that's even slightly relevant to your mileage with an 85Wh battery?  The only valid point you make is the AC, but even then if we assume it's around 12000 BTUs, which would translate to around 1KW at typical efficiencies, you're talking a a 3-4% reduction in mileage over the duration of a charge if driven at 75mph.  So about a 7-9 mile difference?  Holy shiat, how will I* ever get anywhere on time agan?!

*I wish I could afford this, this is the royal I.  There's a royal I, right?
 
2013-05-09 02:56:04 PM  

MrSteve007: In my position, it's the gasoline car that isn't as economical as the EV.


Don't lie.  You know you commute 200+ miles across open desert each way to your job as a ranch hand and, when you arrive, have to haul a 12,000 lb. trailer up a 7% grade several miles.

You know, just like most Americans.
 
2013-05-09 03:00:28 PM  

Rezurok: 85kWh


Missed by 3 orders of magnitude...I know what I meant!
 
2013-05-09 03:01:08 PM  

tricycleracer: Don't lie.  You know you commute 200+ miles across open desert each way to your job as a ranch hand and, when you arrive, have to haul a 12,000 lb. trailer up a 7% grade several miles.

You know, just like most Americans.


Have you ever noticed that (if you believe pickup truck ads) every body of water big enough to drive a big old boat around in is always at the top of a huge mountain?
 
2013-05-09 03:01:42 PM  

UnspokenVoice: Except isn't the story not true if they are actually covered under warranty?


People with a Tesla Roadster that bricked the battery did not get them replaced under warranty.
 
2013-05-09 03:02:59 PM  
Hurr durr. Something new ... must attack it!!!!

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
- Isaac  Asimov
 
2013-05-09 03:03:24 PM  

UnspokenVoice: You, yourself, posted a picture earlier that indicated the chargers are in three states. The only substantial difference between the two numbers is the degree to which it indicates your ability to be dishonest.

Why are you lying?


Guy claimed they were "all over the place". So, they are in 3 states, not 2. You got me! I'm a liar. Any hate for the guy clam they are all over the place? Why not?
 
2013-05-09 03:05:04 PM  

Hollie Maea: tricycleracer: Don't lie.  You know you commute 200+ miles across open desert each way to your job as a ranch hand and, when you arrive, have to haul a 12,000 lb. trailer up a 7% grade several miles.

You know, just like most Americans.

Have you ever noticed that (if you believe pickup truck ads) every body of water big enough to drive a big old boat around in is always at the top of a huge mountain?


I know when I load up the wife and our 5 kids and 3 dogs, I always take the boat up to  Lake Titicaca.  I bet you shove in at sea level like some sort of rube.
 
2013-05-09 03:05:21 PM  

MrSteve007: Rezurok: Are they economical vs gasoline cars currently? Definitely not. But the technology is getting there.

Well, most reviewers say that the Tesla S outperforms and is more comfortable than comparable luxury sedans, so yeah, I'd say that model is economical to its competitors.

And as I'd pointed out in similar threads, I spend less on the fuel (electricity) + $199 monthly lease on a Leaf than I spend simply putting gas into my former 20mpg daily driver & commuting 56 miles a day.

In my position, it's the gasoline car that isn't as economical as the EV.


I can understand that, but I'm not really considering amenities here...just cost of car + gas vs cost of tesla + electricity.  You'd have to drive hundreds of thousands of miles to ever make up the difference in cost with even the most notorious of gas guzzlers.  My car was 23k and gets 40mpg...the miles required to "even out" assuming free electricity and $4 gas is....570,000 miles.  So I won't be writing a check just yet, though I wish I could :p
 
2013-05-09 03:05:33 PM  

Parkanzky: NightOwl2255: According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.

The radio isn't going to meaningfully impact your range.  The AC will, of course.  But traffic actually increases your range.  The rules are different for electric cars...


The point is, every thing you would normally do in a normal car, radio, lights, AC, speed up to pass, go 75-80 all contributes to a reduced range.
 
2013-05-09 03:06:59 PM  
I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.
 
2013-05-09 03:07:51 PM  

BHShaman: NightOwl2255:

Poor analogy is poor.

No, it is completely the right analogy.
Tesla got a LOAN, at rates agreeable to both parties, and they are paying it back in full on the schedule agreed upon. Unlike my bank loan on my house, the Gov. also sees secondary benefits like; other automakers being pressured to keep up, e-stations being built around the country to meet the demand, and future capable technologies that larger auto makers might see as cutting into their core business (gas powered transportation).

Unless Gov is paying for the facilities which Tesla uses, without any amount of compensation.....
Telsa is not at all like a person requiring housing assistance via Section 8.

Next argument from you will probably be about ObamaCell....

Last post from me in this dialog.  Out


Way to ignore the subsides. I bet you're out. Ass.
 
2013-05-09 03:08:14 PM  

mjohnson71: I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.


Yeah, I don't get that either. They definitely have their place. Not as versatile as a gas jobbie yet, but the technology is improving.
 
2013-05-09 03:09:55 PM  

mjohnson71: I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.


There really aren't that many of them.  They are just really loud.

/I do my best to be loud back.
 
2013-05-09 03:10:20 PM  
NightOwl2255:

The point is, for every car, every thing you would normally do in a normal car, radio, lights, AC, speed up to pass, go 75-80 all contributes to a reduced range.

FTFY.
 
2013-05-09 03:11:55 PM  

majestic: fatbear: majestic: Tesla outperforms the Porsche Carrera 4S

Google, how does it work?

2nd result.

Well, I assumed he was talking about the new model, not the roadster. Even so, you are talking about a 17 year old Porsche in that test. My truck outperforms a Ferrari!


You asked, the internet answered. No point biatching just because you don't like the answer.
 
2013-05-09 03:12:19 PM  
This is for our resident "concern troll" NightOwl.

mestadelsbilder.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-05-09 03:13:00 PM  
Slowly we turn...
Bit by bit
Inch by inch
Step by step


/y'all a bunch of stooges.
 
2013-05-09 03:14:21 PM  

mjohnson71: I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.


While I'm not anti-electric car, I do see they have a major flaw. They have a limited range, and worse yet, at the end of that range, you are SOL till you get a recharge. And right now, that takes hours, and that's if you can find a recharge station. Unless you find one of the 9 places that Tesla will recharge it (not fully) in 30 minutes. It simply is inferior.
 
2013-05-09 03:16:22 PM  

NightOwl2255: mjohnson71: I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.

While I'm not anti-electric car, I do see they have a major flaw. They have a limited range, and worse yet, at the end of that range, you are SOL till you get a recharge. And right now, that takes hours, and that's if you can find a recharge station. Unless you find one of the 9 places that Tesla will recharge it (not fully) in 30 minutes. It simply is inferior.


In that one aspect?  Granted.  Now, about every other aspect...
 
2013-05-09 03:21:07 PM  

Rezurok: NightOwl2255: mjohnson71: I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.

While I'm not anti-electric car, I do see they have a major flaw. They have a limited range, and worse yet, at the end of that range, you are SOL till you get a recharge. And right now, that takes hours, and that's if you can find a recharge station. Unless you find one of the 9 places that Tesla will recharge it (not fully) in 30 minutes. It simply is inferior.

In that one aspect?  Granted.  Now, about every other aspect...


Well, that fact a car can't go is aspect numbers 1-99. That's why hybrids are the way to go until they find a way to remedy the range\recharge issue.
 
2013-05-09 03:22:50 PM  

NightOwl2255: Unless you find one of the 9 places that Tesla will recharge it (not fully) in 30 minutes.


Wait a week.  The Supercharger network is about to get a huge upgrade.
 
2013-05-09 03:23:24 PM  

NightOwl2255: UnspokenVoice: Except isn't the story not true if they are actually covered under warranty?

People with a Tesla Roadster that bricked the battery did not get them replaced under warranty.


So it is no longer true as it is now covered under warranty. Got it.

NightOwl2255: UnspokenVoice: You, yourself, posted a picture earlier that indicated the chargers are in three states. The only substantial difference between the two numbers is the degree to which it indicates your ability to be dishonest.

Why are you lying?

Guy claimed they were "all over the place". So, they are in 3 states, not 2. You got me! I'm a liar. Any hate for the guy clam they are all over the place? Why not?


No, you posted an image that showed the charging stations in three states. You later claimed that they were only in three states. Coupled with your earlier claim:

NightOwl2255: At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles.


Your own posted chart indicates that it would be about a 225 mile range unless you suddenly wish to change the reference vehicle, I will quote you using the other numbers here:

NightOwl2255: Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.


And your rather absurd accusation here:

NightOwl2255: So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge.


We have established a pattern of dishonesty which is actually my subject and is the entirety of my point.

I am, on the other hand, a fan of the Tesla company and the products that they make and willingly point that out. My only concern, with this thread, is your passionate dishonesty and what your motives are. I hope you're at least getting paid to be dishonest online. Doing it for free seems a bit much if you ask me.
 
2013-05-09 03:23:29 PM  
C$50K/300mile.  That's the magic numbers for my needs since I'm always going to customer sites (50K km a year).  If someone can get me an EV off the lot at C$50K (with an honest 300 mile range) it'll break even with my current $25K four-cylinder car in about 6 years (assuming maintenance and insurance is comparable).  Since I usually keep cars 10 years it becomes such a no-brainer the wife won't even be able to argue with.
 
2013-05-09 03:26:18 PM  

Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: Unless you find one of the 9 places that Tesla will recharge it (not fully) in 30 minutes.

Wait a week.  The Supercharger network is about to get a huge upgrade.


From Tesla: Tesla Superchargers are placed along well-traveled routes in North America. Nine stations are currently active, expanding to over 100 stations in 2015.
How many gas stations are they? How long does it take to fill a tank?
 
2013-05-09 03:27:56 PM  
Correction: You later claimed they were only in two states.
 
2013-05-09 03:30:30 PM  

NightOwl2255: The point is, every thing you would normally do in a normal car, radio, lights, AC, speed up to pass, go 75-80 all contributes to a reduced range.


Here's a newsflash.  They also reduce the range of a gasoline powered car.

/I'll stop feeding the troll now, promise.
 
2013-05-09 03:30:32 PM  

NightOwl2255: Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: Unless you find one of the 9 places that Tesla will recharge it (not fully) in 30 minutes.

Wait a week.  The Supercharger network is about to get a huge upgrade.

From Tesla: Tesla Superchargers are placed along well-traveled routes in North America. Nine stations are currently active, expanding to over 100 stations in 2015.
How many gas stations are they? How long does it take to fill a tank?


How many people have a gas station at home and can start every day with a full tank?
 
2013-05-09 03:31:21 PM  

trackerbri: (assuming maintenance and insurance is comparable)


That's just the thing: maintenance on a EV is pretty much zero, except maybe for windshield wiper fluid and blades. No oil changes or tuneups or emissions tests. I think MrSteve007 was extolling this virtue of EVs a few weeks ago.
 
2013-05-09 03:31:51 PM  

NightOwl2255: How many gas stations are they? How long does it take to fill a tank?


How often to your start the day with a full gas tank?

I have had an electric car for 6 months.  My car has a range of 80-100 miles, but I have only used a public charger twice so far.  If I has the 250 mile range of a Model S, I would not yet have used any charging except at home.

You imagine slow charging being a big deal, because you have to stop for gas every week.   But if your gas tank were magically full every morning, how often would you give a shiat how many gas stations there are?

A sufficient charging network will require much much fewer fast chargers than gas stations, since they will only be used on very long trips. Yes, we know that you can't yet drive these things to Nebraska, but like I said...wait a week.
 
2013-05-09 03:35:01 PM  

NightOwl2255: mjohnson71: I love the anti-electric car people who think they're some sort of affront to God an/or are un-American.

While I'm not anti-electric car, I do see they have a major flaw. They have a limited range, and worse yet, at the end of that range, you are SOL till you get a recharge. And right now, that takes hours, and that's if you can find a recharge station. Unless you find one of the 9 places that Tesla will recharge it (not fully) in 30 minutes. It simply is inferior.


This is exactly the same argument people made about the first iPhone.

"Nobody will buy them.  There's no SD slot, removable battery or physical keyboard.  They're going to be a failure."

They have different limitations than gasoline cars.  For some people, that's no big deal.  For others, it doesn't work out and they just don't buy an electric car.

For instance, my wife and I have four cars.  A Tesla S would be a neat replacement for one of them and would work really well for us on our ~50 mile round-trip commute and even trips to neighboring cities to visit friends and family.  If we needed to suddently make a 400 mile drive we wouldn't be SOL, we'd just be driving a different car.
 
2013-05-09 03:36:00 PM  

fatbear: majestic: fatbear: majestic: Tesla outperforms the Porsche Carrera 4S

Google, how does it work?

2nd result.

Well, I assumed he was talking about the new model, not the roadster. Even so, you are talking about a 17 year old Porsche in that test. My truck outperforms a Ferrari!

You asked, the internet answered. No point biatching just because you don't like the answer.


Hey, friendo, go fark yourself.
 
2013-05-09 03:37:00 PM  

UnspokenVoice: So it is no longer true as it is now covered under warranty. Got it.


But was true. Got it.

UnspokenVoice: No, you posted an image that showed the charging stations in three states. You later claimed that they were only in three states. Coupled with your earlier claim:


Yes, I posted a big ol picture showing they were in 3 states, not "all over the place" as the Farker claimed (why don't you take issue with his dishonesty?)  and I said they were in two. Does that sound like the action of someone that is willful lying? Posting a large picture? Damn, you make no sense.

UnspokenVoice: We have established a pattern of dishonesty which is actually my subject and is the entirety of my point.


In your mind, maybe. Again, the Farker claimed it's range was 250-300 miles. Sure, if you drive 55, no AC, flat land. I pointed out, correctly, that in the real world, it's range is a lot less. And and at higher, i.e., normal highway speeds, it's much less. It's funny that you accuse me of being dishonest when I'm posting info directly from Tesla.
 
2013-05-09 03:38:47 PM  

Parkanzky: Here's a newsflash. They also reduce the range of a gasoline powered car.


And when that car needs gas, does it take 3-4-5 hours to fill up? Do you have to hope you can find somewhere to fill up?
 
2013-05-09 03:39:30 PM  

mak3_7up_y0urs: How many people have a gas station at home and can start every day with a full tank?


And your point?
 
2013-05-09 03:41:42 PM  
I might come off as some kind of hippie communist liberal scum....but how is the government giving loans and tax breaks to green companies a bad thing?

Companies that actually might help get us off the oil tit and stop doing business with asswipe Islamic fundamentalists and other people who hate us? Companies that might develop the technology to reduce carbon emissions so climate change won't destroy the planet? Companies that hire American workers? How do we lose investing in technology in the long run?
 
2013-05-09 03:44:00 PM  

NightOwl2255: Parkanzky: Here's a newsflash. They also reduce the range of a gasoline powered car.

And when that car needs gas, does it take 3-4-5 hours to fill up? Do you have to hope you can find somewhere to fill up?


This is really simple.  One limitation of an electric car is that it has a limited range.  If you cannot deal with that constraint, then you have the option of purchasing a car with a traditional internal combustion engine.  However, many people don't find the range to be a limitation for their use.  I would be happy owning an electric car with a ~175 mile range.  It wouldn't inconvenience me.  If that doesn't work for you, buy something else.

Why all the electric car rage when you clearly don't have a dog in the fight and it's obvious that lots of people have purchased them and are happy with their purchase?
 
2013-05-09 03:44:21 PM  

Parkanzky: For instance, my wife and I have four cars. A Tesla S would be a neat replacement for one of them and would work really well for us on our ~50 mile round-trip commute and even trips to neighboring cities to visit friends and family. If we needed to suddently make a 400 mile drive we wouldn't be SOL, we'd just be driving a different car.


You make a good point. All 4 cars you have now would make that 400 mile trip, no problem (I assume they are gas drinkers and are not junk). The problem is, your $80k Tesla (or any electric car), simply can't in the same manner as a Honda Accord. A car that can't go a few hundred miles is a limited car.
 
2013-05-09 03:46:52 PM  

NightOwl2255: Parkanzky: Here's a newsflash. They also reduce the range of a gasoline powered car.

And when that car needs gas, does it take 3-4-5 hours to fill up? Do you have to hope you can find somewhere to fill up?


Strategy for winning internet arguments, number 82: Whenever one of your points is proven wrong, meaningless, or absurd, switch to a different point. Repeat as necessary.
 
2013-05-09 03:50:19 PM  

NightOwl2255: Parkanzky: For instance, my wife and I have four cars. A Tesla S would be a neat replacement for one of them and would work really well for us on our ~50 mile round-trip commute and even trips to neighboring cities to visit friends and family. If we needed to suddently make a 400 mile drive we wouldn't be SOL, we'd just be driving a different car.

You make a good point. All 4 cars you have now would make that 400 mile trip, no problem (I assume they are gas drinkers and are not junk). The problem is, your $80k Tesla (or any electric car), simply can't in the same manner as a Honda Accord. A car that can't go a few hundred miles is a limited car.


The range limitation does not make it junk.  The automotive press, the satisfied owners and the huge sales success are plenty of evidence of that.  It just makes it unsuitable in that role.  Is there something wrong with that?  Is a Ferrari 458 junk because it can't haul mulch home for the flower beds or tow your boat?  Buy what suits your purpose.  For many people, a Tesla is perfectly suited for commuting.
 
2013-05-09 03:51:18 PM  

Parkanzky: Why all the electric car rage when you clearly don't have a dog in the fight and it's obvious that lots of people have purchased them and are happy with their purchase?


I would ask why all the rage for a product that is so clearly limited? But, you asked in a civil manner (thank you for that) so I will answer. Consumer Reports just issued a glowing report on the S. I find it silly to absurd that a car that is so limited in its operation would get such a review. It's a sedan, it should be measured against other sedans, not as an electric vehicle, as a sedan. On that bases it has a major flaw. It can't go very far, and it takes a lot of time to "fill up". If you want to call it a great, or the best, electric car, fine. But do so with the understanding that it has a major, inherent weakness.
 
2013-05-09 03:51:19 PM  

Hollie Maea: All that said, I wouldn't describe someone who latches onto a single breathless article on an issue and then never follows up on it as "people paying attention".


Whether or not it is something that is STILL a problem is pretty much settled. It's not still a problem.

But to deny that a non-Tesla-employee could form a bad impression of the company based on actual input... that's just silly. The story was everywhere.
   
Single breathless article


Second single breathless article from person who got what you're giving others here - angry defensiveness over first single breathless article

Single breathless letter from Tesla admitting the single breathless article is right and offering to fix it for $40k

Single breathless New York Times article about the problem

Single breathless Jalopnik article that has been updated to detail five separate cases of the problem, including one because the extension cord was too long, one in Japan, one in Newport Beach. AND this single breathless article warns that this problem affects the Model S.

Single breathless Fark Thread where someone named "Hollie Maea" who apparently works for Tesla first says what even Tesla admits happened didn't happen, and then says what happened will continue to be a design flaw in future models


And once you know you're not investing a hundred grand in a POS brick of a car, why would you follow up? Unless there were a Fark thread saying Consumer reports had given the car a good rating... then you might look into it or something.
 
2013-05-09 03:53:10 PM  

R.A.Danny: vpb: knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.

When it costs a third of that I will get one, but not now.

Conversely, when $80,000 becomes closer to the average car price. Car prices are blowing the doors off regular inflation.


Cash for clunkers and new fuel standards will do that.
 
2013-05-09 03:53:23 PM  

Parkanzky: The range limitation does not make it junk.


I didn't mean junk as in electric, I meant junk as in could go 400 miles without falling apart. It was more of a joke. I would never call an electric car junk. Just limited.
 
2013-05-09 03:55:22 PM  

fatbear: NightOwl2255: Parkanzky: Here's a newsflash. They also reduce the range of a gasoline powered car.

And when that car needs gas, does it take 3-4-5 hours to fill up? Do you have to hope you can find somewhere to fill up?

Strategy for winning internet arguments, number 82: Whenever one of your points is proven wrong, meaningless, or absurd, switch to a different point. Repeat as necessary.


You are tiresome. When discussing the range of a car. and what limits that range, the method you use to extend that range is very important to the discussion. Now, I'm done with you.
 
2013-05-09 03:56:05 PM  

theorellior: trackerbri: (assuming maintenance and insurance is comparable)

That's just the thing: maintenance on a EV is pretty much zero, except maybe for windshield wiper fluid and blades. No oil changes or tuneups or emissions tests. I think MrSteve007 was extolling this virtue of EVs a few weeks ago.


Well, the $600 annual Tesla maintenance package is pretty expensive then if it's a maintenance free car.  Do I spend more than $600 on maintenance for my litter commuter?  Maybe, not much more than that though.  So it's a wash.

Nothing is maintenance free, tires still need to be rotated and replaced (the tires on a Tesla S would cost twice what my little wagon is currently shod with), bulbs burn out, brakes need to be inspected if only for liability concerns, filters need to be changed, even if it's just a cabin filter.  My stealership loves suggesting changing my cabin air filter for $95.  It's a 3 minute job and I can source the filter direct from Asia for thirteen bucks shipped.  I'm sure EV charging systems and batteries need some sort of a checkup, even if it's only annually.  Plus you get the software updates from Tesla.

My brother in law has a LEAF but it's a company car so he has no clue what the maintenance visits cost or what they cover, he just brings it in when they tell him to.

Right now I don't know how maintenance on a Tesla works in Canada.  I don't think we have any Canadian dealers, but I've seen and know of a handful of Tesla roadsters in the area.
 
2013-05-09 04:03:57 PM  
While internet idiots ignorantly naysay, TSLA posted 1Q results that beat EPS estimates by 300% (.04 average analyst expectation, .12 actual) leading the stock to a one day gain of over 24%.

/wish I had taken a larger position
 
2013-05-09 04:05:40 PM  

trackerbri: Right now I don't know how maintenance on a Tesla works in Canada.  I don't think we have any Canadian dealers, but I've seen and know of a handful of Tesla roadsters in the area.


It appears we have now have one dealership in Toronto, so whatever maintenance required would be a day trip I guess.
 
2013-05-09 04:07:30 PM  

NightOwl2255: mak3_7up_y0urs: How many people have a gas station at home and can start every day with a full tank?

And your point?


That a majority of driving needs can be adequately met by having the ability to start every day with a full "tank" without ever having to go to a gas station?

Yes, I understand you are very, very concerned that you can't make a 1,000 mile trip in a Model S. Fortunately there are many other vehicles that can handle such a task, so you can purchase one of those instead.

An electric vehicle isn't for you, but that does nothing to detract from what Tesla has accomplished with the Model S.
 
2013-05-09 04:11:11 PM  

Thrag: While internet idiots ignorantly naysay, TSLA posted 1Q results that beat EPS estimates by 300% (.04 average analyst expectation, .12 actual) leading the stock to a one day gain of over 24%.

/wish I had taken a larger position


Tesla reported its first profit in 10 years on May 8, 2013 and the market celebrated by propelling the stock price by 24% in after-hours trading. It posted a GAAP profit of $11 million, but this included a one-time DOE stock warrant profit of $10.7 million,

Ten years to turn a tiny, tiny profit (without the government help). What's the burn rate been for the last 10 years? Yeah, we're all idiots.
 
2013-05-09 04:14:16 PM  

mak3_7up_y0urs: An electric vehicle isn't for you, but that does nothing to detract from what Tesla has accomplished with the Model S.


No doubt the S is a great electric car. The best electric car every made. With all the limitations that come with being all electric.
 
2013-05-09 04:15:37 PM  

NightOwl2255: Yeah, we're all idiots.


Here's an idea.  Why don't you just go short TSLA stock if you are so goddamn sure that they suck?
 
2013-05-09 04:17:45 PM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: So essentially, everything you stated is now wrong.

Damn, you do love you some Tesla, don't ya? That's okay. Did the guy's Tesla brick? Yes. Did Tesla refuse to fix it? Yes. Go on with your bad self.


Has someone not filled changed their oil as proscribed by the owners manuel?  Yes.  Do auto manufacturers refuse to fix burned out engines due to negligence?.  Yes.  Going on with my bad self now, cuz that's how I roll....
 
2013-05-09 04:18:14 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options, and they actually take less than an hour to charge at the (free) roadside Tesla "supercharge" stations that are popping up all over the place

If by "all over the place" you mean 9 (almost all in one state) then yeah.
[i939.photobucket.com image 850x598]


Considering over 50 million people live those zones...
 
2013-05-09 04:18:41 PM  

NightOwl2255: Thrag: While internet idiots ignorantly naysay, TSLA posted 1Q results that beat EPS estimates by 300% (.04 average analyst expectation, .12 actual) leading the stock to a one day gain of over 24%.

/wish I had taken a larger position

Tesla reported its first profit in 10 years on May 8, 2013 and the market celebrated by propelling the stock price by 24% in after-hours trading. It posted a GAAP profit of $11 million, but this included a one-time DOE stock warrant profit of $10.7 million,

Ten years to turn a tiny, tiny profit (without the government help). What's the burn rate been for the last 10 years? Yeah, we're all idiots.


No, in this thread it is really just you who is the idiot. Loudly proclaiming your ignorance about business by thinking that a new technology startup taking years to turn a profit is somehow unusual or bad isn't exactly helping you. I've made a 60% gain in less than a month, you've made a fool of yourself. But please, continue.
 
2013-05-09 04:19:41 PM  

majestic: Even if you can "fill-up" at a supercharger station, who has an entire hour to refuel? I can fuel up my vehicle in 5 minutes and be back on the road. It's always seemed to me that the way to make the EV feasible is to have battery swap out stations. Pull in with a nearly depleted battery and the station attendant swaps it out for a fresh one in under 10 minutes.  The station recharges the used batteries for later swaps.


Batteries are much bigger, more complicated, and much less fungible than you are envisioning.  They wear at different rates, so you might be trading in a brand new $10k battery for a crappy old one, etc.
 
2013-05-09 04:21:14 PM  
I don't understand why more people don't buy these things just for the fun of it. If you can't drop 80K on an amusement ride, then you really should be taking the bus anyway.
 
2013-05-09 04:21:19 PM  

NightOwl2255: I'm not anti-electric car


Out of all the lies you've posted in this thread this is by far the largest.

You have posted 30 or 40 times in this thread, you are posting out-of-date information in the hope of having a negative impact, you are insisting range is the most important thing when all the data and the user testimonials say otherwise.

The worst part is that your basic premise is weapon's grade stupidity: "Since this new technology is not the same or better than a mature technology in every category we should not support it".

You clearly have an agenda ... your "concern troll" persona does not hold water.
 
2013-05-09 04:21:27 PM  

NightOwl2255: mak3_7up_y0urs: An electric vehicle isn't for you, but that does nothing to detract from what Tesla has accomplished with the Model S.

No doubt the S is a great electric car. The best electric car every made. With all the limitations that come with being all electric.


Fair enough.
 
2013-05-09 04:22:31 PM  
Here's a nice little chart for NightOwl, the super obviously-employed-by-a-major-gas-drilling-company guy.


American Commute Distance (One Way)Percent1-5 Miles29 %6-10 Miles22 %11-15 Miles17 %16-20 Miles10 %21-25 Miles7 %26-30 Miles5 %31-35 Miles3 %35 + Miles8 %
 
2013-05-09 04:23:07 PM  
Well, that sucked. Here's the link.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/

Hint, like, most Americans drive less than 70 miles per day.
 
2013-05-09 04:24:40 PM  

NightOwl2255: fatbear: NightOwl2255: Parkanzky: Here's a newsflash. They also reduce the range of a gasoline powered car.

And when that car needs gas, does it take 3-4-5 hours to fill up? Do you have to hope you can find somewhere to fill up?

Strategy for winning internet arguments, number 82: Whenever one of your points is proven wrong, meaningless, or absurd, switch to a different point. Repeat as necessary.

You are tiresome. When discussing the range of a car. and what limits that range, the method you use to extend that range is very important to the discussion. Now, I'm done with you.


Exactly. You are saying that the range of an EV drops by more than the range of a gas powered car when you turn on the A/C (or radio, headlights, siren, blender or laser.) It doesn't. This is why the engineers in the discussion want to smack you with a circular slide rule.
 
2013-05-09 04:25:45 PM  

Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: Yeah, we're all idiots.

Here's an idea.  Why don't you just go short TSLA stock if you are so goddamn sure that they suck?


I think I will.
 
2013-05-09 04:27:24 PM  

RyansPrivates: NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: So essentially, everything you stated is now wrong.

Damn, you do love you some Tesla, don't ya? That's okay. Did the guy's Tesla brick? Yes. Did Tesla refuse to fix it? Yes. Go on with your bad self.

Has someone not filled changed their oil as proscribed by the owners manuel?  Yes.  Do auto manufacturers refuse to fix burned out engines due to negligence?.  Yes.  Going on with my bad self now, cuz that's how I roll....


Yes, driving a car without any oil is exactly the same as parking your car in a garage, coming back a couple months later and it's dead. $40k dead.
 
2013-05-09 04:28:20 PM  
Oh, and to all the conspiracy anti-oil people out there, I work for a major oil and gas company, and have people in my office on the wait list for these.  It doesn't really bother us one bit, commuters don't provide as much revenue from oil as people think (oil goes into almost everything you use), and the natural gas just goes to a power plant that gets burned to turn into electricity for the electric car.  Win-win.

Our biggest competitors are alternative sources of energy, an electric car is not a source of energy, so no big deal.
 
2013-05-09 04:28:33 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: Considering over 50 million people live those zones...


And 260 million don't. And you still have to hope it's on your route. That would be a swing and a miss.
 
2013-05-09 04:29:33 PM  

Farking Canuck: You have posted 30 or 40 times in this thread, you are posting out-of-date information in the hope of having a negative impact, you are insisting range is the most important thing when all the data and the user testimonials say otherwise.


A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.
 
2013-05-09 04:32:26 PM  

NightOwl2255: You make a good point. All 4 cars you have now would make that 400 mile trip, no problem (I assume they are gas drinkers and are not junk). The problem is, your $80k Tesla (or any electric car), simply can't in the same manner as a Honda Accord. A car that can't go a few hundred miles is a limited car.


Well, my 20mpg Toyota Tacoma only gets about 325 miles per tank - so it wouldn't make 400 miles without a refil (assuming it was full to start out with). Does that make it a limited vehicle?

Actually, I'm thinking of doing a 283 mile trip in my Leaf in the coming weeks (Seattle WA to Eugene, OR). It ought to take 3, maybe 4 quick charges (@ 20 minutes each). In all practicality, I'll drive for 80-90 minutes, take a 15 minute piss & soda break, and do that 3 times. So for 4 1/2 hours of driving, I'll take 60-80 minutes worth of breaks. Not as fast as I could do it in my truck, and about the same time as I could do it on my motorcycle (which only has a 2.5 gallon tank and required a refill every 100 miles). However to drive that far in my truck, I'd use 20 gallons of gas. Is an extra hour worth it to me to save $55 in fuel each way? You bet your ass it is.

Luckily for me, there are about 4-5 dozen, operational, 20-minute "quick" chargers in WA and OR now.

Meanwhile, people like you will keep bleating on how it's impossible to do roadtrips in electric cars with only 75 a mile range.
 
2013-05-09 04:36:05 PM  

Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: Yeah, we're all idiots.

Here's an idea.  Why don't you just go short TSLA stock if you are so goddamn sure that they suck?


To be fair, there may be a very short term shorting opportunity as the price will no doubt suffer a correction soon if not tomorrow. It would be an incredibly risky move to try it.
 
2013-05-09 04:38:59 PM  

Thrag: To be fair, there may be a very short term shorting opportunity as the price will no doubt suffer a correction soon if not tomorrow. It would be an incredibly risky move to try it.


Those two phrases don't belong together. One of them is wrong.
 
2013-05-09 04:39:08 PM  

NightOwl2255: A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.


Nobody is arguing that the range of this relatively new technology currently limited.

Why do you feel the need to make 40 posts about this well known point. And why do you need to point out that, in the past, on a previous model, there used to be a battery problem?

Should we be listing every problem that gas powered cars have ever had? Especially in their early days??

Oh that's right - despite your denials, you are anti-electric car and you seem to have a pathetic need to rant on the internet about it. And you are clearly not above posting out of date information ... which is dishonest.
 
2013-05-09 04:39:33 PM  
NightOwl: I live 6 miles from work. Am I wrong for considering a Nissan Leaf as a second vehicle for just my driving to/from work?
 
2013-05-09 04:41:05 PM  

Thrag: No, in this thread it is really just you who is the idiot. Loudly proclaiming your ignorance about business by thinking that a new technology startup taking years to turn a profit is somehow unusual or bad isn't exactly helping you. I've made a 60% gain in less than a month, you've made a fool of yourself. But please, continue.


10 years, and they still have not really made any money. And their hope for the future is based on, shall we say, hopeful sales projections.
 
2013-05-09 04:43:03 PM  

NightOwl2255: Yes, driving a car without any oil is exactly the same as parking your car in a garage, coming back a couple months later and it's dead. $40k dead.


Both were expressly prohibited by the manufacturer, both were spelled out in detail in the owner's manual, and both resulted in expensive, non-warrantied damage. Completely different.
 
2013-05-09 04:43:20 PM  

fatbear: Thrag: To be fair, there may be a very short term shorting opportunity as the price will no doubt suffer a correction soon if not tomorrow. It would be an incredibly risky move to try it.

Those two phrases don't belong together. One of them is wrong.


Why? To make money on a short you have to time it right. The price can correct but then recover and go higher again before the gain is realized. You don't just automatically make money the second the stock goes down. To try and short a stock that is gaining momentum on the expectation of a brief correction is indeed risky.
 
2013-05-09 04:45:08 PM  

MrSteve007: Meanwhile, people like you will keep bleating on how it's impossible to do roadtrips in electric cars with only 75 a mile range.


It's funny how you have to make up excuses for how long and often you have to stop, and then make an ignorant statement like that. In a Civic, no stops, a few gallons of gas and you're there. Get real.
 
2013-05-09 04:46:05 PM  

Farking Canuck: NightOwl2255: A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.

Nobody is arguing that the range of this relatively new technology currently limited.

Why do you feel the need to make 40 posts about this well known point. And why do you need to point out that, in the past, on a previous model, there used to be a battery problem?

Should we be listing every problem that gas powered cars have ever had? Especially in their early days??

Oh that's right - despite your denials, you are anti-electric car and you seem to have a pathetic need to rant on the internet about it. And you are clearly not above posting out of date information ... which is dishonest.


Feel better?
 
2013-05-09 04:47:07 PM  

NightOwl2255: Thrag: No, in this thread it is really just you who is the idiot. Loudly proclaiming your ignorance about business by thinking that a new technology startup taking years to turn a profit is somehow unusual or bad isn't exactly helping you. I've made a 60% gain in less than a month, you've made a fool of yourself. But please, continue.

10 years, and they still have not really made any money. And their hope for the future is based on, shall we say, hopeful sales projections.


Look, you do not need to continue to reinforce the fact you haven't a clue about business. We get it, you've made it more than obvious.

They just beat their hopeful sales projections by a huge margin. While that is no guarantee of the future, it carries more weight than ignorant naysaying.
 
2013-05-09 04:47:23 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: They have a range of 250-300 miles depending on the battery and options

Wow, you really have laid it on. Are you on their payroll?
Tesla says the car can go 300 miles at 55 mph.
 [www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

At 75, with no AC, you would be lucky to get 150 miles. Turn on the AC and I'm guessing it's closer to 125 (or less).

So, you leave the left coast on a trip across the country. You'll get a little over 100 miles before you need to recharge. Since there is nowhere to recharge, your trip is basically over. But on the upside, you only paid $100k.



Can you read your own graph there buddy? It's 200 miles at 80 mph for the Model S, and no comment on whether or not AC or other auxiliaries are on for that range. That's more than adequate for most of us metropolitan areas that want to drive a few days between charges, or plenty of range to drive up and down California using a single super-charger station along the way. My gasoline car doesn't get great mileage at 80 mph either, the range only being 350 mi or so... either way I'd have to stop once driving from LA to SF so yeah, wouldn't mind the S one bit. And who said anything about $100k? It's clearly $80k in the article  before tax credits.

Furthermore, If you buy ANY electric car with the intention of a road trip across the US today, you're a complete idiot. We're moving in the right direction but we're not that far yet, better off with the Volt at that point which has already made a 2000 mi venture from Detroit to Los Angeles for Motor Trend I believe.
 
2013-05-09 04:50:35 PM  

NightOwl2255: Feel better?


Yes. I live to point out stupidity.

It was very satisfying to point the spotlight on you and your idiotic arguments.
 
2013-05-09 04:52:07 PM  

Thrag: Look, you do not need to continue to reinforce the fact you haven't a clue about business. We get it, you've made it more than obvious.

They just beat their hopeful sales projections by a huge margin. While that is no guarantee of the future, it carries more weight than ignorant naysaying.


Feel better?
 
2013-05-09 04:54:39 PM  

NightOwl2255: Thrag: Look, you do not need to continue to reinforce the fact you haven't a clue about business. We get it, you've made it more than obvious.

They just beat their hopeful sales projections by a huge margin. While that is no guarantee of the future, it carries more weight than ignorant naysaying.

Feel better?


Feel bitter?
 
2013-05-09 04:54:59 PM  

Farking Canuck: Yes. I live to point out stupidity.


Must be a sad life.
 
2013-05-09 04:56:23 PM  

Thrag: NightOwl2255: Thrag: Look, you do not need to continue to reinforce the fact you haven't a clue about business. We get it, you've made it more than obvious.

They just beat their hopeful sales projections by a huge margin. While that is no guarantee of the future, it carries more weight than ignorant naysaying.

Feel better?

Feel bitter?


Well, I have several frakers going ape shiat over their love of an inferior product. I feel pretty good.
 
2013-05-09 04:57:12 PM  

NightOwl2255: Thrag: Look, you do not need to continue to reinforce the fact you haven't a clue about business. We get it, you've made it more than obvious.

They just beat their hopeful sales projections by a huge margin. While that is no guarantee of the future, it carries more weight than ignorant naysaying.

Feel better?


And I should add, fark yes, I do feel pretty good about seeing a 60% gain on a stock I've owned for less than a month.

How do you feel about wasting a good part of your day making a complete fool of yourself?
 
2013-05-09 04:57:17 PM  

NightOwl2255: RyansPrivates: NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: So essentially, everything you stated is now wrong.

Damn, you do love you some Tesla, don't ya? That's okay. Did the guy's Tesla brick? Yes. Did Tesla refuse to fix it? Yes. Go on with your bad self.

Has someone not filled changed their oil as proscribed by the owners manuel?  Yes.  Do auto manufacturers refuse to fix burned out engines due to negligence?.  Yes.  Going on with my bad self now, cuz that's how I roll....

Yes, driving a car without any oil is exactly the same as parking your car in a garage, coming back a couple months later and it's dead. $40k dead.


There seems to be something wrong with you. The "$40k dead" point has been addressed over and over in this thread.

Why are you reluctant to say, "Ah. Okay. I'm glad they dealt with that," and then move on without returning to something which is not a current issue?

Likewise, with the 'range' point. If the car isn't suitable for 600 mile trips, don't take it on 600 mile trips. This is not complicated. For you, it would not be worth it. Okay. For most people with daily commutes in urban or semiurban environments, it seems perfectly adequate.

All that is coming across from you is that you don't like 'em. That's okay. The reasons you have given have been debunked. You're  perfectly entitled to have other reasons, of course, but at this stage you're only showing yourself to be quite irrational. In fact, your continued participation is an argument for electric cars, because the way you're approaching things is so wrong-headed that you're appearing willfully ignorant and unpersuasive.
 
2013-05-09 04:57:56 PM  

Hella Fark: Can you read your own graph there buddy? It's 200 miles at 80 mph for the Model S, and no comment on whether or not AC or other auxiliaries are on for that range. That's more than adequate for most of us metropolitan areas that want to drive a few days between charges, or plenty of range to drive up and down California using a single super-charger station along the way. My gasoline car doesn't get great mileage at 80 mph either, the range only being 350 mi or so... either way I'd have to stop once driving from LA to SF so yeah, wouldn't mind the S one bit. And who said anything about $100k? It's clearly $80k in the article before tax credits.


And let's hope you have a lot of time to kill while the S charges, and that's if you can find a place to change it.
 
2013-05-09 04:59:27 PM  

Thrag: Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: Yeah, we're all idiots.

Here's an idea.  Why don't you just go short TSLA stock if you are so goddamn sure that they suck?

To be fair, there may be a very short term shorting opportunity as the price will no doubt suffer a correction soon if not tomorrow. It would be an incredibly risky move to try it.


I wouldn't be so sure of a correction.  There are still a ton of people in the market who shorted at $25.  If a bunch of them decide that they want to cut their losses before Elon brings the hammer down on them with the supercharger announcement (coming within a week), it could go up even farther in the next couple of days.  Elon has publicly said that he's going to make sure that the shorters lose their shirts.
 
2013-05-09 05:01:49 PM  

NightOwl2255: Thrag: NightOwl2255: Thrag: Look, you do not need to continue to reinforce the fact you haven't a clue about business. We get it, you've made it more than obvious.

They just beat their hopeful sales projections by a huge margin. While that is no guarantee of the future, it carries more weight than ignorant naysaying.

Feel better?

Feel bitter?

Well, I have several frakers going ape shiat over their love of an inferior product. I feel pretty good.


This post coming right after the "sad life" comment could not have been more perfect. Did you even feel a twinge of cognitive dissonance typing those two posts?
 
2013-05-09 05:02:25 PM  

NightOwl2255: It's funny how you have to make up excuses for how long and often you have to stop, and then make an ignorant statement like that. In a Civic, no stops, a few gallons of gas and you're there. Get real.


Ok, that's a good comparison! Let's you're driving a 2013 Honda Civic LX automatic sedan (MSRP $22,00 w/ shipping and taxes) 283 miles, that car gets 32 mpg combined (there is typically heavy traffic in the Seattle and Portland metro areas). The trip takes you 4 hours 45 minutes and costs $33.16 in fuel (@ $3.75 a gallon).

Or

You could drive a Nissan Leaf S w/ quick charger (MSRP $23,450 w/ incentives). The trip will take 5 hours, 45 minutes (with 3 stops to recharge) and cost you zero in fuel. By the end of the round trip, I'll have taken two hours more (11.5 vs. 9.5 hours), but I'll have $66 more in my pocket.

It doesn't take a genius to see that it doesn't take that many miles to come out ahead in an electric car. In the 5 months I've owned mine, I've saved $937 in fuel costs already.
 
2013-05-09 05:03:08 PM  

NightOwl2255: And let's hope you have a lot of time to kill while the S charges, and that's if you can find a place to change it.


God forbid an American have to actually plan ahead.

home.comcast.net
 
2013-05-09 05:03:58 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: The reasons you have given have been debunked.


The limited range and long charging time has been debunked? Telsa's's didn't brick because of failure to charge them? Do you know what debunk means?
 
2013-05-09 05:09:48 PM  

knbber2: Yeah, the gas companies are trembling.  I'm sure an $80k car that you can drive for three hours and then have to charge for 12 is going to flood the market.  I'm not against electric cars, but the technology is just not there yet.


Graphene may switch those numbers soon.
 
2013-05-09 05:10:27 PM  

NightOwl2255: Farking Canuck: You have posted 30 or 40 times in this thread, you are posting out-of-date information in the hope of having a negative impact, you are insisting range is the most important thing when all the data and the user testimonials say otherwise.

A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.


It's limited in how far you can go on a single charge, sure.  I'm not sure you're giving this limitation fair weight... I put a lot of miles on my car and can easily count on one, mutilated, fingers-missing hand the number of times in a year that I have to drive more than 200 miles in a single trip.  Actually, it's been once so far this year and I could have rented a car.

On the other-hand, being able to charge your car to full every single night in your garage is a huge advantage.  Now, look at things the other way.  A traditional combustion engine car has the limitation that you have to go to a gas station to fill it up.   How can you rate a gas-powered car highly considering it has such a huge limitation?  I mean, sure, the Audi S7 may be a great car, for a gas powered car, but without being able to wake up every morning with full range available without stopping at a store to fill up the tank, it obviously can't be the best car.

See other advantages to electric cars: maintenance, torque, noise.
 
2013-05-09 05:10:36 PM  

MrSteve007: It doesn't take a genius to see that it doesn't take that many miles to come out ahead in an electric car. In the 5 months I've owned mine, I've saved $937 in fuel costs already.


If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?
 
2013-05-09 05:10:48 PM  

Hollie Maea: Thrag: Hollie Maea: NightOwl2255: Yeah, we're all idiots.

Here's an idea.  Why don't you just go short TSLA stock if you are so goddamn sure that they suck?

To be fair, there may be a very short term shorting opportunity as the price will no doubt suffer a correction soon if not tomorrow. It would be an incredibly risky move to try it.

I wouldn't be so sure of a correction.  There are still a ton of people in the market who shorted at $25.  If a bunch of them decide that they want to cut their losses before Elon brings the hammer down on them with the supercharger announcement (coming within a week), it could go up even farther in the next couple of days.  Elon has publicly said that he's going to make sure that the shorters lose their shirts.


I hope you are correct. Especially since my plan to sell at 74 and buy back in after a pullback was foiled by my shiatty mobile trading app refusing to work. (I hold it in my IRA so I have no tax concerns when it comes to a move like that)
 
2013-05-09 05:10:55 PM  
www.uvu.edu
 
2013-05-09 05:12:01 PM  

NightOwl2255: PartTimeBuddha: The reasons you have given have been debunked.

The limited range and long charging time has been debunked? Telsa's's didn't brick because of failure to charge them? Do you know what debunk means?


Run along and go short your stock.  When you make a killing, you can come gloat.  Until then, STFU.
 
2013-05-09 05:12:18 PM  

pjfry: On the other-hand, being able to charge your car to full every single night in your garage is a huge advantage.


That's a good point. You still have to hassle with plugging it in. But, it would still be nice.
 
2013-05-09 05:12:34 PM  

Hollie Maea: Elon has publicly said that he's going to make sure that the shorters lose their shirts.


No wonder NightOwl is so upset.

/~150% gain on the TSLA stock I bought two years ago
 
2013-05-09 05:15:21 PM  

anfrind: Hollie Maea: Elon has publicly said that he's going to make sure that the shorters lose their shirts.

No wonder NightOwl is so upset.

/~150% gain on the TSLA stock I bought two years ago


Wish I hadn't been dirt poor 2 years ago (hazards of going back to school).  But I'm content to just watch electric cars come to the market.
 
2013-05-09 05:15:38 PM  
Give it up guys. NightOwl just wants America to keep suckling at the teet of foreign oil.
 
2013-05-09 05:17:04 PM  

NightOwl2255: PartTimeBuddha: The reasons you have given have been debunked.

The limited range and long charging time has been debunked? Telsa's's didn't brick because of failure to charge them? Do you know what debunk means?


I do. Regrettably, you do not appear to. Guess it's your time to waste, though. Hey -- perhaps that is how you can fill those arduous minutes while you wait for the recharge cycle to complete, eh? :D
 
2013-05-09 05:18:10 PM  

mjohnson71: Give it up guys. NightOwl just wants America to keep suckling at the teet of foreign oil.


Well, that's a pretty stupid statement. I'll let you figure out why. And what's a teet?
 
2013-05-09 05:18:13 PM  

NightOwl2255: If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?


media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-09 05:24:29 PM  

theorellior: NightOwl2255: If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?

[media.tumblr.com image 500x375]


Really, that post is the one you use? Damn, I thought it was actually a good question.
 
2013-05-09 05:28:13 PM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: It doesn't take a genius to see that it doesn't take that many miles to come out ahead in an electric car. In the 5 months I've owned mine, I've saved $937 in fuel costs already.

If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?


Model S owners can use any supercharger station for free.  Tesla can afford to make such an offer because they're covering each supercharger station with enough solar panels that each station puts more electricity into the grid than it takes out.  And even when you do have to pay for electricity, it still costs way less than an equivalent amount of gasoline.

Not that a shill like you would actually care.
 
2013-05-09 05:34:49 PM  

Thrag: fatbear: Thrag: To be fair, there may be a very short term shorting opportunity as the price will no doubt suffer a correction soon if not tomorrow. It would be an incredibly risky move to try it.

Those two phrases don't belong together. One of them is wrong.

Why? To make money on a short you have to time it right. The price can correct but then recover and go higher again before the gain is realized. You don't just automatically make money the second the stock goes down. To try and short a stock that is gaining momentum on the expectation of a brief correction is indeed risky.


I know how to short irrational exuberance; I do it several times each day. It was an attempt at a humorous observation that you said it would be "risky" to bet on something for which there was "no doubt."

The frog is dead. Move on.
 
2013-05-09 05:35:13 PM  

NightOwl2255: If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?


Finding places to charge aren't all that difficult - the car's Nav system automatically pulls in new public charging stations every week or so (it actually just added another 39 charge points within 20 miles of my office this morning). Interestingly, there's becoming so many level 2 charge points, it's hard to make out the level 3 (quick charge) points.

fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net
You can see one quick charge point poking out towards the bottom of Tacoma (it looks more like a gas pump with a plug). Had you taken a look at the link of the West Coast Green Highway, you'd see that WA, OR and CA are putting quick chargers into major gas stations or rest stops, about every 30 miles, from the Canadian to the Mexican borders. Washington and Oregon have decided to go one step further and put fast chargers about every 50 miles along all the highways within the states. Most of those are now operational. And, at least for the next year - they're completely free.

At least for now, I have a quick charge range of ~1,400 miles north/south, and about 300 miles east/west for free.

/my car only shows 83 mile range because it's not fully charged - that's about 85% charged.
 
2013-05-09 05:44:20 PM  

MrSteve007: Interestingly, there's becoming so many level 2 charge points


How long does a level 2 charge take?

MrSteve007: And, at least for the next year - they're completely free.


They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?
 
2013-05-09 05:45:39 PM  

MrSteve007: NightOwl2255: If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?


<--snip-->

I believe that Nissan was teaming up with someone (GE??) to add a boatload of chargers and have the charge stations free as well.  The same article said they are trying to make it so all Nissan dealers are required to have charge stations which are free also, but not sure if they can enforce that.  Which would make sense as they are trying to push an electric car and that would help with range anxiety.
 
2013-05-09 05:47:58 PM  

NightOwl2255: They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?


How much will corn cost in six months' time?
 
2013-05-09 05:48:32 PM  

NightOwl2255: RyansPrivates: NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: So essentially, everything you stated is now wrong.

Damn, you do love you some Tesla, don't ya? That's okay. Did the guy's Tesla brick? Yes. Did Tesla refuse to fix it? Yes. Go on with your bad self.

Has someone not filled changed their oil as proscribed by the owners manuel?  Yes.  Do auto manufacturers refuse to fix burned out engines due to negligence?.  Yes.  Going on with my bad self now, cuz that's how I roll....

Yes, driving a car without any oil is exactly the same as parking your car in a garage, coming back a couple months later and it's dead. $40k dead.


If the car is in your garage, you plug it in. Even if you don't have a 240v NEMA or High Powered Wall Connector, you can just plug it into a standard household 110V outlet, and you can leave the car there for years. This really isn't an issue. You can insist it's an issue, but facts and so forth.

There are inherent pluses and minuses to all technology. ZOMG BRICK! isn't one of them when discussing the Tesla Model S.
 
2013-05-09 05:49:59 PM  

NightOwl2255: They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?


The electricity is so cheap that many establishments pay for it in the knowledge that they will make way more in increased sales than they spend on electricity.  Literally the calculated benefit of having a person on their premises for some period of time is higher than the cost of electricity when you are plugged in.

When I charge at home, I pay about 2.5 cents per mile to drive my EV.  And that's at residential rates, which are significantly higher than commercial rates.
 
2013-05-09 05:50:10 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: NightOwl2255: They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?

How much will corn cost in six months' time?


Yeah ... he's getting pretty desperate now.

Everyone in the thread is mocking his stupidity and he can't see a way to save face.
 
2013-05-09 05:51:05 PM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: Interestingly, there's becoming so many level 2 charge points

How long does a level 2 charge take?

MrSteve007: And, at least for the next year - they're completely free.

They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?


Nissan Leaf battery is 24kwh so from completely dead to full would be 24 * price per kwh ($0.12 national avg) = $2.88 with $1.92 for the Oregon/Washington area.
 
2013-05-09 05:51:55 PM  

Farking Canuck: PartTimeBuddha: NightOwl2255: They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?

How much will corn cost in six months' time?

Yeah ... he's getting pretty desperate now.

Everyone in the thread is mocking his stupidity and he can't see a way to save face.


Feel better?
 
2013-05-09 05:55:35 PM  

NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Real world experience trumps whatever else you might pull out of your ass.

You really are a dick, huh? No worries, lots of them on here.

As for my ass, you seem infatuated with it, here's where I pulled it out of:

[www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.


Ok, I gotta ask, since you've implied you're from Los Angeles: are there many highways around there with a speed limit of 75? Because there are NO roads around my area where that's legal.  Now I know I don't always go the speed limit, but the likelihood of me driving 225 miles at 75mph consistently is somewhere between slim and infinitesimal. Assuming perfect road conditions it isn't likely. Hell, assuming roads where it's LEGAL, driving for 3 hours without having to slow down for a while or just being forced to stop, odds are still pretty low.

Your claim is foolish because it's unrealistic. And it's unrealistic because unless you're in bizarro world where everyone else drives on sidewalks or through fields leaving the roads open to you, or you put your car on a treadmill to work it out, NOBODY DOES IT.
 
2013-05-09 05:55:57 PM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: Interestingly, there's becoming so many level 2 charge points

How long does a level 2 charge take?


Depends on the model year. My older 2012 model was limited with a 3.6kw charger. The American made 2013 model has a 6.6kw charger (apparently Japanese household wiring doesn't allow more than 3.6kw. With the older model, from dead empty to full, it's about 6 hours. The new car is 3 hours. With a level III charger, I've found it to be 20 minutes.
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
-my last use of a "fast" charger in South Lake Union, Seattle - last week.

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: And, at least for the next year - they're completely free.

They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?


I have a feeling that's why they're currently free. The companies who are installing them (Aerovironment, Blink Network (Ecotality), Coulomb, Opconnect, Semaconnect, Shorepower) are likely using us early adopters to hone their usage patterns and pricing. When it comes to level 2 chargers, they're going for a rate of $1 an hour of use, or $2 for a full charge, depending on company.
 
2013-05-09 05:59:38 PM  

NightOwl2255: Farking Canuck: PartTimeBuddha: NightOwl2255: They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?

How much will corn cost in six months' time?

Yeah ... he's getting pretty desperate now.

Everyone in the thread is mocking his stupidity and he can't see a way to save face.

Feel better?


About the same, thanks. Does this "feel better" shtick help you deal with all everyone pointing out your inept arguments?
 
2013-05-09 06:00:44 PM  

Farking Canuck: Hurr durr. Something new ... must attack it!!!!

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
- Isaac  Asimov


Farking Canuck: NightOwl2255: I'm not anti-electric car

Out of all the lies you've posted in this thread this is by far the largest.

You have posted 30 or 40 times in this thread, you are posting out-of-date information in the hope of having a negative impact, you are insisting range is the most important thing when all the data and the user testimonials say otherwise.

The worst part is that your basic premise is weapon's grade stupidity: "Since this new technology is not the same or better than a mature technology in every category we should not support it".

You clearly have an agenda ... your "concern troll" persona does not hold water.


Farking Canuck: NightOwl2255: A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.

Nobody is arguing that the range of this relatively new technology currently limited.

Why do you feel the need to make 40 posts about this well known point. And why do you need to point out that, in the past, on a previous model, there used to be a battery problem?

Should we be listing every problem that gas powered cars have ever had? Especially in their early days??

Oh that's right - despite your denials, you are anti-electric car and you seem to have a pathetic need to rant on the internet about it. And you are clearly not above posting out of date information ... which is dishonest.


Farking Canuck: NightOwl2255: Feel better?

Yes. I live to point out stupidity.

It was very satisfying to point the spotlight on you and your idiotic arguments.


Farking Canuck: PartTimeBuddha: NightOwl2255: They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?

How much will corn cost in six months' time?

Yeah ... he's getting pretty desperate now.

Everyone in the thread is mocking his stupidity and he can't see a way to save face.


Well, you really added to the discussion. Not a single fact. Nothing that would be considered positive. Just threadshiatting. When the word troll was coined, it was for posters like you.
 
2013-05-09 06:01:33 PM  

Jurodan: Ok, I gotta ask, since you've implied you're from Los Angeles


No, I didn't.
 
2013-05-09 06:02:37 PM  

NightOwl2255: Farking Canuck: Hurr durr. Something new ... must attack it!!!!

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
- Isaac  Asimov

Farking Canuck: NightOwl2255: I'm not anti-electric car

Out of all the lies you've posted in this thread this is by far the largest.

You have posted 30 or 40 times in this thread, you are posting out-of-date information in the hope of having a negative impact, you are insisting range is the most important thing when all the data and the user testimonials say otherwise.

The worst part is that your basic premise is weapon's grade stupidity: "Since this new technology is not the same or better than a mature technology in every category we should not support it".

You clearly have an agenda ... your "concern troll" persona does not hold water.

Farking Canuck: NightOwl2255: A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.

Nobody is arguing that the range of this relatively new technology currently limited.

Why do you feel the need to make 40 posts about this well known point. And why do you need to point out that, in the past, on a previous model, there used to be a battery problem?

Should we be listing every problem that gas powered cars have ever had? Especially in their early days??

Oh that's right - despite your denials, you are anti-electric car and you seem to have a pathetic need to rant on the internet about it. And you are clearly not above posting out of date information ... which is dishonest.

Farking Canuck: NightOwl2255: Feel better?

Yes. I live to point out stupidity.

It was very satisfying to point the spotlight on you and your idiotic arguments.

Farking Canuck: PartTimeBuddha: NightOwl2255: They're not free, they are free to you. Someone's paying for them. How much will they cost when they are not free?

How much will corn cost in six months' time?

Yeah ... he's getting pretty desperate now.

Everyone in the thread is mocking his stupidity and he can't see a way to save face.

Well, you really added to the discussion. Not a single fact. Nothing that would be considered positive. Just threadshiatting. When the word troll was coined, it was for posters like you.


Feel better?
 
2013-05-09 06:03:26 PM  
Well boys, gotta go drive my gas guzzler. Thanks to MrSteve007 for being civil. Some of you could learn from him.
 
2013-05-09 06:04:14 PM  
NightOwl2255,I really don't care about this thread, and only see the Tesla as a step in a long journey towards getting away from fossil fuels.

But you have been outclassed at every turn here. You really don't have any valid points anymore, and are just trying to fight your way off the ground now. Go take a nap and stop embarrassing yourself.
 
2013-05-09 06:04:17 PM  

Farking Canuck: About the same, thanks. Does this "feel better" shtick help you deal with all everyone pointing out your inept arguments?


Feel better now? I'm really concerned for you.
 
2013-05-09 06:04:50 PM  

Jurodan: NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Real world experience trumps whatever else you might pull out of your ass.

You really are a dick, huh? No worries, lots of them on here.

As for my ass, you seem infatuated with it, here's where I pulled it out of:

[www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.

Ok, I gotta ask, since you've implied you're from Los Angeles: are there many highways around there with a speed limit of 75? Because there are NO roads around my area where that's legal.  Now I know I don't always go the speed limit, but the likelihood of me driving 225 miles at 75mph consistently is somewhere between slim and infinitesimal. Assuming perfect road conditions it isn't likely. Hell, assuming roads where it's LEGAL, driving for 3 hours without having to slow down for a while or just being forced to stop, odds are still pretty low.

Your claim is foolish because it's unrealistic. And it's unrealistic because unless you're in bizarro world where everyone else drives on sidewalks or through fields leaving the roads open to you, or you put your car on a treadmill to work it out, NOBODY DOES IT.


The posted speed limit on highways is almost always 55mph, but unless there's a traffic jam most people will go at least 70mph.  And on a good day it's not that unrealistic to drive 200 miles along I-5 without hitting any serious traffic (or at least it wasn't the last time I drove to Southern California).

Of course, very few people would do that without taking at least a few breaks for meals and/or bathrooms, so NightOwl is still an idiot.
 
2013-05-09 06:08:11 PM  
A little off topic, but I wonder if anyone could help interpret these tables for me?

http://pv.nrcan.gc.ca/index.php?n=2660&m=u&lang=e

I think I understand that "global mean insolation" is the sunlight before it hits Earth's atmosphere -- so it's kind of a theoretical maximum before clouds and air happen. (I could be wrong on that, though; please let me know!)

But the table I'm really having trouble understanding is the first one - the one in "kW/kWh", "PV Potential". I'm assuming this is per square meter, but I'm not sure what this really means. Is this the total per month collectable with a 100% efficient panel, or does it look like assumptions about panel efficiency have been made (say 15% or so?). I have googled "PV Potential" but I'm not clear whether it's really a term of art or not. Any help?
 
2013-05-09 06:08:22 PM  

NightOwl2255: Well, you really added to the discussion. Not a single fact. Nothing that would be considered positive. Just threadshiatting. When the word troll was coined, it was for posters like you


I wasn't discussing the car ... I was discussing your weird obsession with attacking this technology.

And what have you added?

- you've continually insisted that range is the most important factor in a car ... when everyone else, including electric car owners, have pointed out that it rarely comes into play.

- you continually bring up the "brick" incident when it is an old issue on a different car that was due to someone operating against what is clearly laid out in the owner's manual. On top of that, the issue has been retroactively eliminated by a software update and full warranty coverage.

- you've said "feel better" a few times

- you've asked people to predict the future price of the currently free charging

I don't see anything productive in this load of stupidity that you've presented.
 
2013-05-09 06:30:55 PM  
PartTimeBuddha:

I think I understand that "global mean insolation" is the sunlight before it hits Earth's atmosphere -- so it's kind of a theoretical maximum before clouds and air happen. (I could be wrong on that, though; please let me know!)

The "global mean insolation" is how much sunlight is on average hits a surface in a day.  Use the last table which measures in kWh/m^2.  The values on that table are usually reported in units called "peak hours".  Since one sun is defined as 1kW/m^2, when you measure kWh/m^2 that is the same as saying that you have the equivalent of a certain number of hours of peak sun.  So in June if you have a stationary but summer optimized system, it is the equivalent of 5.0 hours of full sun shining right on the surface, while a winter optimized system will see the equivalent of 3.9 hours.  But in January, your summer optimized system will see the equivalent of 1.9 hours of direct full sunlight.  Your winter optimized one will see 2.2 hours.

But the table I'm really having trouble understanding is the first one - the one in "kW/kWh", "PV Potential". I'm assuming this is per square meter, but I'm not sure what this really means. Is this the total per month collectable with a 100% efficient panel, or does it look like assumptions about panel efficiency have been made (say 15% or so?). I have googled "PV Potential" but I'm not clear whether it's really a term of art or not. Any help?

This is really the same information, but it takes into account the area that a typical solar panel takes.  When they talk about kWh/kW, the kWh is the amount of energy that you will get out during that month while the kW is the nameplate rating of the panels.  So if you get a 4kW system (about 15 panels) then your summer optimized system will generate 4*112kWh = 448kWh of energy during June.
 
2013-05-09 06:37:58 PM  

fatbear: Both were expressly prohibited by the manufacturer, both were spelled out in detail in the owner's manual, and both resulted in expensive, non-warrantied damage. Completely different.


Yes they are, I refer you to: 

NightOwl2255: Yes, driving a car without any oil is exactly the same as parking your car in a garage, coming back a couple months later and it's dead. $40k dead.


In other words, if you don't follow directions, as outlined in the owners manual: Surprise! The car may break down irreparably.
 
2013-05-09 06:44:57 PM  

NightOwl2255: Jurodan: Ok, I gotta ask, since you've implied you're from Los Angeles

No, I didn't.


You are correct. I apologize. I missed the beginning of one of your previous comments. This one in particular:

NightOwl2255: I didn't have time to read the entire articel, I will later, but I did see this bit: Of course, as you'd expect, the day I go looking for traffic, on a Friday at rush hour no less, there is none to be found. Semis and commuter laden SUVs blow by me at 80 mph as I putt from the I-210 west to 605 south. I should be door handle to door handle with my fellow Angelenos, but instead they're giving my 52 mph cruising speed the one finger salute. Where is everyone? I soon find out. Just before 4pm, traffic grinds to a halt due at our westward connection, the 105 freeway. As my average speed drops to 8 mph, projected range jumps to between 28 and 56 miles.

That said I will amend my previous question: Where the hell do you live where you can drive 75mph consistently for 3 hours? The rest of the questions and comment still stand though.
 
2013-05-09 06:47:22 PM  
Hollie Maea:

Thank you kindly for that explanation!

I shall busy myself with spreadsheets... :)
 
2013-05-09 06:53:11 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: A little off topic, but I wonder if anyone could help interpret these tables for me?

http://pv.nrcan.gc.ca/index.php?n=2660&m=u&lang=e

I think I understand that "global mean insolation" is the sunlight before it hits Earth's atmosphere -- so it's kind of a theoretical maximum before clouds and air happen. (I could be wrong on that, though; please let me know!)

But the table I'm really having trouble understanding is the first one - the one in "kW/kWh", "PV Potential". I'm assuming this is per square meter, but I'm not sure what this really means. Is this the total per month collectable with a 100% efficient panel, or does it look like assumptions about panel efficiency have been made (say 15% or so?). I have googled "PV Potential" but I'm not clear whether it's really a term of art or not. Any help?


kWh/kW does look a little confusing at first, as do tables that just list it as "hours" or "sun-hours" by cancelling out the kW.  What it's really saying is "for a PV system with a nameplate capacity of 1kW, you will generate this many kWh in a typical day/month/year."

So, if you have a 7kW system on your roof, and the table says your location gets 49kWh per kW in January, your array will make 49 * 7 = 343kWh for the month.

As to the insolation tables, when used for talking about PV, those are more generally talking about the average sun received *at the ground*, not before the atmosphere, and include average weather effects as well.
 
2013-05-09 06:53:24 PM  

NightOwl2255: Farking Canuck: About the same, thanks. Does this "feel better" shtick help you deal with all everyone pointing out your inept arguments?

Feel better now? I'm really concerned for you.


With every post you make, I feel dumber. You don't have $80k to purchase this or any other car. You are not the intended market.  You are the target of buy here, pay here lots where you can spend the same $80k on a 2002 Civic and pay for the gas as you go on your cross country trek searching for a job as a moron. You already have that job here. It pays just as much 600 miles away, charging station or not.
 
2013-05-09 06:56:04 PM  

Jurodan: Where the hell do you live where you can drive 75mph consistently for 3 hours?


To give credit where credit is due, you can drive on I-80 from the border of CA/NV to the border of NE/IA with speed limits of 75 outside of cities.

Then you cross into IA, with their 65mph speed limits, and there are a billion cops pulling everyone over.

At least that's how it was 10 years ago when I drove I-80.
 
2013-05-09 07:00:19 PM  
Another example of how the internet enables people who sit well to the extremes of the standard distribution curve to interact with society at large.
 
2013-05-09 07:17:40 PM  
That's nice, but why are we still building cars at this point? Carbon emissions are only part of the problem. If we're going to ramp up the planet to hold another couple billion people, cars aren't an option for the future.
 
2013-05-09 07:19:10 PM  

NightOwl2255: UnspokenVoice: So it is no longer true as it is now covered under warranty. Got it.

But was true. Got it.

UnspokenVoice: No, you posted an image that showed the charging stations in three states. You later claimed that they were only in three states. Coupled with your earlier claim:

Yes, I posted a big ol picture showing they were in 3 states, not "all over the place" as the Farker claimed (why don't you take issue with his dishonesty?)  and I said they were in two. Does that sound like the action of someone that is willful lying? Posting a large picture? Damn, you make no sense.

UnspokenVoice: We have established a pattern of dishonesty which is actually my subject and is the entirety of my point.

In your mind, maybe. Again, the Farker claimed it's range was 250-300 miles. Sure, if you drive 55, no AC, flat land. I pointed out, correctly, that in the real world, it's range is a lot less. And and at higher, i.e., normal highway speeds, it's much less. It's funny that you accuse me of being dishonest when I'm posting info directly from Tesla.


See here's where you're attempting to make it seem as if you're being honest...

No, you showed a picture where it was in three states. You later claimed it was two states. (That's called lying.) You posted the mileage chart and then claimed the miles where drastically lower than they claim, that's called lying again. You state that something is true, present tense, when it isn't true any longer (though it was true) which is, again, lying. The latter we can give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is intentionally misleading just so you don't cry about it.

The question isn't about the automobile. The question isn't about the benefits, negatives, or various uses of the automobile. The question is, "Why are you lying?" That is it. That's the only question I have for you.
 
2013-05-09 07:49:20 PM  

NightOwl2255: SN1987a goes boom: Considering over 50 million people live those zones...

And 260 million don't. And you still have to hope it's on your route. That would be a swing and a miss.


Not all of the 260 million drive. You just love being dishonest. It's okay, I'm home again now and can give you some more attention.

There are about 191,000,000 drivers on the road. Roughly 30 million of them are 60+ so probably don't commute so we can use a 150,000,000 as a decent enough rough estimate of commuters. That's a good 30% of which who can make use of this product at its current level of capacity.

For your final sentence, hopefully the buyers of these vehicles understand their needs and the logistics involved (you know, think and make educated choices based on their individual needs) so it isn't really a "swing and a miss." They'd actually know what they want the vehicle for, what they expect from the vehicle, the financial aspects, the availability of the means to recharge their vehicle, and any other factors they need to be concerned with. The logistics aren't actually all that difficult to figure out and people are able to determine what best suits their needs.

No, it doesn't have the range of a gas vehicle. Nobody is purchasing one expecting it to have that range. They're buying them because the vehicle suits their needs. No, it doesn't suit the needs of everybody. A knife is not the best tool for hammering in a nail. An electric car is not the best tool for driving across the country. It is pretty simple to understand and the attraction is there for those who are capable of thinking AND have a role that this vehicle suits better than a gas-powered vehicle does.
 
2013-05-09 07:54:59 PM  

NightOwl2255: Farking Canuck: You have posted 30 or 40 times in this thread, you are posting out-of-date information in the hope of having a negative impact, you are insisting range is the most important thing when all the data and the user testimonials say otherwise.

A car that has a limited range is limited. Deal with it.


All vehicles are limited. Deal with it.

I can't tow a boat with my car. I can't fit five people in my truck. I can't tow a 53' trailer behind my truck. I can't fit a tractor trailer truck in my garage. I can't go mudding in my car. I can't get 35mpg in my truck.

You know what you can't do with a gas powered vehicle?

You can't plug it in at night and charge it up to use it the following day.

I don't know where you got the idea that limitless is an achievable goal but until we have infinite resources we have to deal with limitations.
 
2013-05-09 07:58:44 PM  

MrSteve007: Actually, I'm thinking of doing a 283 mile trip in my Leaf in the coming weeks (Seattle WA to Eugene, OR).


Good luck. Going to document it? Ever wish you'd gone for something with a greater range? I like the LEAF but, alas, I live in Maine which means the range isn't adequate for my needs. I've been considering a Tesla for a long time now though I'd prefer they put the Lotus chassis back on it.
 
2013-05-09 08:00:10 PM  

NightOwl2255: FlashHarry: unlikely: Does it still brick the car if you run out of juice?

just like a regular car, you mean?

No, what he is talking about is if you let one compeltely run dead, the entire battey will have to be replaced, not under warranty, for about $30k.


Well, no. Tesla recently announced that they'd replace the Model S battery regardless of fault for free.
 
2013-05-09 08:00:56 PM  
I'd love to have one as I work from home and most of my driving is very small trips so an electric car would work perfectly for me.  But the price is going to have to come way down before I'll consider it when I can buy a Hyundai for under 20K and it will last me a couple of decades.
 
2013-05-09 08:07:45 PM  

NightOwl2255: Hollie Maea: Ancient article. You could brick a Roadster if you tried really hard. You have never been able to brick a Model S. Even if you run it down and then park it. Either way, bricking is 100 percent covered by warranty, no questions asked.

So, not exactly 100% false, huh? I accept your apology.


This thread refers to the Model S. So ya, it is 100% false.

Next up: "if the iPhone 5 is so great, why can I kill the signal just by holding it wrong?"
 
2013-05-09 08:11:13 PM  

NightOwl2255: PartTimeBuddha: The reasons you have given have been debunked.

The limited range and long charging time has been debunked? Telsa's's didn't brick because of failure to charge them? Do you know what debunk means?


Let's take these one at a time.

The limited range and long charging time has been debunked?

These are not long range vehicles, they are designed for use within their range. They aren't designed to be in use all the time thus allowing time to recharge easily and conveniently.

Telsa's's didn't brick because of failure to charge them?

They did when people didn't follow the directions given to them by the manufacturer. They have since taken greater steps to prevent that from happening because, it would appear, some people are stupid enough to not heed the manufacturer's warnings or follow the directions.

Do you know what debunk means?

Yes, do you?

/you're kind of fun
//for a retard
/no, really - you are
 
2013-05-09 08:24:16 PM  

deffuse: Another example of how the internet enables people who sit well to the extremes of the standard distribution curve to interact with society at large.


That is a brilliant way of looking at it. Thank you.
 
2013-05-09 08:30:28 PM  

NightOwl2255: MrSteve007: It doesn't take a genius to see that it doesn't take that many miles to come out ahead in an electric car. In the 5 months I've owned mine, I've saved $937 in fuel costs already.

If all you care about is the bottom line. You still would have to stop more time. Those stops take longer. And you have to find the places to stop that you can charge it. And BTW, are your charges free? How many of these free charging stations are there and who's paying for them?


I don't have the time or energy to read this whole thread. I'm going to assume that  somebody pointed out that electric vehicles are not designed for cross-country road trips, the same way a Boeing 777 is not designed for a grocery run.
 
2013-05-09 08:37:30 PM  

Jurodan: NightOwl2255: Cyberluddite: Real world experience trumps whatever else you might pull out of your ass.

You really are a dick, huh? No worries, lots of them on here.

As for my ass, you seem infatuated with it, here's where I pulled it out of:

[www.teslamotors.com image 425x341]

According to Tesla, with no AC, under optimal circumstances, you might get 225 at 75mph. And that's running it down to empty, hope you don't run into any traffic. Hope you can find a place to sit around while it recharges. Turn on the radio? Less miles. Turn on the AC? A lot less miles.

Ok, I gotta ask, since you've implied you're from Los Angeles: are there many highways around there with a speed limit of 75? Because there are NO roads around my area where that's legal.  Now I know I don't always go the speed limit, but the likelihood of me driving 225 miles at 75mph consistently is somewhere between slim and infinitesimal. Assuming perfect road conditions it isn't likely. Hell, assuming roads where it's LEGAL, driving for 3 hours without having to slow down for a while or just being forced to stop, odds are still pretty low.

Your claim is foolish because it's unrealistic. And it's unrealistic because unless you're in bizarro world where everyone else drives on sidewalks or through fields leaving the roads open to you, or you put your car on a treadmill to work it out, NOBODY DOES IT.


Well, slowing down and speeding up constantly (which people tend to do) actually hurts the mileage more. However, I will say that unless you're gunning it or going uphill, ~200 miles is about what you should expect when using a full charge and not holding back. The radio, etc. are all trivial. The only two things that make a difference are AC and heater -- with the heater significantly cutting down on range (~20% or so).

So while it does have many limitations, if you live in CA and don't travel more than 200 miles a day, you're likely going to be ok.
 
2013-05-09 09:32:28 PM  

mjohnson71: NightOwl: I live 6 miles from work. Am I wrong for considering a Nissan Leaf as a second vehicle for just my driving to/from work?


Why wouldnt you bike?  What invest in a $20-25K vehicle to commute 12 miles round trip to work?  Provided you have a viable vehicle already, even an H1 or something getting 9 mpg, you wont ever recover the price by the time you changed jobs anyhow.
 
2013-05-09 10:09:47 PM  

Cuyose: mjohnson71: NightOwl: I live 6 miles from work. Am I wrong for considering a Nissan Leaf as a second vehicle for just my driving to/from work?

Why wouldnt you bike?  What invest in a $20-25K vehicle to commute 12 miles round trip to work?  Provided you have a viable vehicle already, even an H1 or something getting 9 mpg, you wont ever recover the price by the time you changed jobs anyhow.


Not everyone lives in southern california.

velojoy.com
 
2013-05-10 12:00:18 AM  
One more note on the Roadster bricking incident, there's more than a little circumstantial evidence that the owner did it deliberately, after having the car for sale for two months, in order to extort Tesla to buy it back when he couldn't find a buyer at the price he wanted.
 
2013-05-10 12:50:37 AM  
I paid 5000 for my car. I expect to get 215 to 220k miles out of it like my last car, of the same make, model etc. It had 15k when I bought it. It gets 30 miles to the gallon, so 200k ÷30=6667 gallons of gas my car will use during its life. 6667× 4.20 (I live in ca gas is expensive here) = 28000. 28000 + 5000= 33000 to buy and drive my car. They want 80k for the one that goes further....pass.

Yes I know there are other costs with a car but the main difference is gas vs electric, if all other costs are the same for either car, these aren't worth it for anything other than ego stroking.
 
2013-05-10 01:27:17 AM  
fatbear:
Not everyone lives in southern california.

[velojoy.com image 640x480]


You can see the bike locked up in the winter?

You must live somewhere warm. Where I am the bikes get buried under snowbanks
 
2013-05-10 02:01:14 AM  

Magnanimous_Spirit: I paid 5000 for my car. I expect to get 215 to 220k miles out of it like my last car, of the same make, model etc. It had 15k when I bought it. It gets 30 miles to the gallon, so 200k ÷30=6667 gallons of gas my car will use during its life. 6667× 4.20 (I live in ca gas is expensive here) = 28000. 28000 + 5000= 33000 to buy and drive my car. They want 80k for the one that goes further....pass.

Yes I know there are other costs with a car but the main difference is gas vs electric, if all other costs are the same for either car, these aren't worth it for anything other than ego stroking.


it is a luxury car. You pay accordingly. It is competing with, say, an Audi A8, not with your $5000 cracker box.
 
2013-05-10 02:44:08 AM  

Hollie Maea: it is a luxury car. You pay accordingly. It is competing with, say, an Audi A8, not with your $5000 cracker box.


Quite. Also, pre-owned cracker box vs new Audi A8.
 
2013-05-10 03:49:58 AM  

Magnanimous_Spirit: I paid 5000 for my car. I expect to get 215 to 220k miles out of it like my last car, of the same make, model etc. It had 15k when I bought it. It gets 30 miles to the gallon, so 200k ÷30=6667 gallons of gas my car will use during its life. 6667× 4.20 (I live in ca gas is expensive here) = 28000. 28000 + 5000= 33000 to buy and drive my car. They want 80k for the one that goes further....pass.

Yes I know there are other costs with a car but the main difference is gas vs electric, if all other costs are the same for either car, these aren't worth it for anything other than ego stroking.


You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense
 
2013-05-10 04:24:38 AM  
This thread feels like an episode of Top Gear, lots of people arguing the finer points of cars that 99.99% of the market will never be able to afford.

Should I buy an Aventador or the latest 911? Questions only people who actually host shows about sports cars can afford to ask themselves.

I love Top Gear, but just like Tesla it's a dream show, letting us see what the extremely rich use for their toys. Tesla will never be a dominant car company so long as their vehicles cost as much as a house.

When they put out a $20,000 vehicle with a single charge range of 300 miles, and the ability to charge in under 30 min, then you are looking at something that will be a plausible replacement for gasoline based engines.

Until then it's just another Bently or Lamborghini style toy for rich people.
 
2013-05-10 05:18:59 AM  

hetheeme: This thread feels like an episode of Top Gear, lots of people arguing the finer points of cars that 99.99% of the market will never be able to afford.

Should I buy an Aventador or the latest 911? Questions only people who actually host shows about sports cars can afford to ask themselves.

I love Top Gear, but just like Tesla it's a dream show, letting us see what the extremely rich use for their toys. Tesla will never be a dominant car company so long as their vehicles cost as much as a house.

When they put out a $20,000 vehicle with a single charge range of 300 miles, and the ability to charge in under 30 min, then you are looking at something that will be a plausible replacement for gasoline based engines.

Until then it's just another Bently or Lamborghini style toy for rich people.


Early generations of new technologies are expensive. This is nothing new. It was the same for gas powered cars. The Tesla S is a luxury car meant to compete with other luxury cars. It is price comprable with high end cars from makers like Mercedes, Lexus, etc. (not Lamborghini or Bently, those are in a whole other price class). The tesla is not supposed to be the model T of electric cars. Nobody is saying it is.
 
2013-05-10 06:29:04 AM  
Lots of Repugnicans Fark Independentstm in here.

As for the car, WANT!
 
2013-05-10 07:04:21 AM  

Thrag: Early generations of new technologies are expensive.


Yet they wont shut up about how cheap it is, and how power everywhere is free (and will always remain free because when everyone has EV's outlets in parking lots won't become a commodity...)

You didn't save any farking money paying 14 cents per kWh to charge an $80,000 when you could by a $20,000 car that will go it's entire lifetime without spending $60,000 on fuel or repairs.
 
2013-05-10 07:25:23 AM  

fluffy2097: Thrag: Early generations of new technologies are expensive.

Yet they wont shut up about how cheap it is, and how power everywhere is free (and will always remain free because when everyone has EV's outlets in parking lots won't become a commodity...)

You didn't save any farking money paying 14 cents per kWh to charge an $80,000 when you could by a $20,000 car that will go it's entire lifetime without spending $60,000 on fuel or repairs.


Who is talking about how cheap it is? In this thread I see people acknowledging the price is that of a high end luxury car. Who is saying the free charging stations will always be free? What bizzaro universe version of this thread are you reading?

I will never understand why people are so dedicated to ignorant naysaying.
 
2013-05-10 07:56:50 AM  

fluffy2097: Thrag: Early generations of new technologies are expensive.

Yet they wont shut up about how cheap it is, and how power everywhere is free (and will always remain free because when everyone has EV's outlets in parking lots won't become a commodity...)

You didn't save any farking money paying 14 cents per kWh to charge an $80,000 when you could by a $20,000 car that will go it's entire lifetime without spending $60,000 on fuel or repairs.


Who's saying it's cheap?

You're comparing a 20,000 POS to an 80,000 luxury car.

If you're starting with a $20,000 gasoline car, compare it to the $30,000 Nisssan Leaf. Now tell me you won't put $10,000 of gas in it over its lifetime. Of course, for $20,000 you're buying a Dodge dart, so maybe it will only go 68,000 miles (at 27mpg, $4/gallon) before it shiats the bed.
 
2013-05-10 09:18:02 AM  
They need to make a Texas Edition that can go ~400 miles on a charge at 85 MPH. I'll be sold then.
 
2013-05-10 10:04:43 AM  

Glitchwerks: You'd figure they'd come up with a design that looks a little less like a Mazda and more like a Merc or Audi.


I thought it looked an oversized 2013 Dodge Dart.

That said, that car's starting to grow on me, as is the Model S (I've seen two now). It's a very slick-looking car, and given a few tweaks to the EV system and a better price, I wouldn't mind owning one. It's certainly not as attention-whorish as the Fisker Karma.
 
2013-05-10 11:42:53 AM  
I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  I think a lot of folks have been going pretty hard on  NightOwl2255 (and with good reason).  Not because I think he's right or has a good point to make, but because he's allowed you guys ample opportunity to dispell a lot of fictions about Electric Vehicles that I'd still had in my head (and a few I haven't).  Because of this, it's pretty likely that, when I'm done with my Civic (in a couple years), my next car will be an EV (Either the Fit EV or Nissan Leaf, if they haven't come out with a Civic EV by then)

I plan on always living close to where I work, and even if the battery and charging station tech doesn't solve the range issue (not a big one for me), I can take the money I save on not filling up on gas to rent a car for long hauls.  The Teslas are out of my price range, but the Nissan Leaf should be fine for my commutes and starts at under $22k; not too much more than a Civic Sedan.

From what I've read here (and in looking up information to verify claims), I'm getting the feeling that EV's are going to really start taking off soon, especially once the charging station infrastructure is in place (it took a good long while to get where we are with gas stations everywhere; originally, you'd be lucky to have a gas station in a major city, let alone in every town of 500 people).  And with charging stations using solar to power them, it will also push along solar technology to help lighten the load for the oil and natural gas plants.

It seems like, if this tech takes off, everyone wins except the oil companies.  So, I have to stand behind it.
 
2013-05-10 12:24:43 PM  

Thrag: I will never understand why people are so dedicated to ignorant naysaying.


Because they're lazy, and getting the facts takes work.

ColdFusion: I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  I think a lot of folks have been going pretty hard on  NightOwl2255 (and with good reason).  Not because I think he's right or has a good point to make, but because he's allowed you guys ample opportunity to dispell a lot of fictions about Electric Vehicles that I'd still had in my head (and a few I haven't).  Because of this, it's pretty likely that, when I'm done with my Civic (in a couple years), my next car will be an EV (Either the Fit EV or Nissan Leaf, if they haven't come out with a Civic EV by then)

I plan on always living close to where I work, and even if the battery and charging station tech doesn't solve the range issue (not a big one for me), I can take the money I save on not filling up on gas to rent a car for long hauls.  The Teslas are out of my price range, but the Nissan Leaf should be fine for my commutes and starts at under $22k; not too much more than a Civic Sedan.

From what I've read here (and in looking up information to verify claims), I'm getting the feeling that EV's are going to really start taking off soon, especially once the charging station infrastructure is in place (it took a good long while to get where we are with gas stations everywhere; originally, you'd be lucky to have a gas station in a major city, let alone in every town of 500 people).  And with charging stations using solar to power them, it will also push along solar technology to help lighten the load for the oil and natural gas plants.

It seems like, if this tech takes off, everyone wins except the oil companies.  So, I have to stand behind it.


I'm mostly in the same situation, except that while I live about 6 miles from work, I travel about 100 miles each way every few weeks, and it doesn't make sense for me to own two cars (and taking public transit on the 100-mile trip would take 5 hours each way).  Right now the Model S is the only electric car in existence that can meet my needs, but in order to afford it I'd need to save up a lot of money.
 
2013-05-10 01:48:10 PM  

ColdFusion: Because of this, it's pretty likely that, when I'm done with my Civic (in a couple years), my next car will be an EV (Either the Fit EV or Nissan Leaf, if they haven't come out with a Civic EV by then)


If you are waiting a couple of years, the Tesla Bluestar will probably be the best car on the market.  They are targeting 30K (that might be before incentives) and 200+ mile range.  It's going to be sweet.
 
2013-05-10 01:51:50 PM  

anfrind: I'm mostly in the same situation, except that while I live about 6 miles from work, I travel about 100 miles each way every few weeks, and it doesn't make sense for me to own two cars (and taking public transit on the 100-mile trip would take 5 hours each way).  Right now the Model S is the only electric car in existence that can meet my needs, but in order to afford it I'd need to save up a lot of money.


Sounds like another potential Tesla Bluestar customer.
 
2013-05-10 03:14:37 PM  
Up almost another 10% since the opening bell rang.

I wonder if this thread's chief naysayer got that short order placed? ;)
 
2013-05-10 03:25:08 PM  
Another gubmint sponsored green technology bankruptcy in 5,4,3,2,1... but,but this time it's different.  Consumer Reports said so.
 
2013-05-10 03:38:19 PM  

Mean Daddy: Another gubmint sponsored green technology bankruptcy in 5,4,3,2,1... but,but this time it's different.  Consumer Reports said so.


Go short some Tesla stock.
 
2013-05-10 04:04:43 PM  

Thrag: Up almost another 10% since the opening bell rang.

I wonder if this thread's chief naysayer got that short order placed? ;)


My guess is that his handlers told him that he'd gone too far, and the next time there's a Tesla thread he'll develop Romnesia and try to pretend that he never said he'd short the stock.
 
2013-05-10 10:03:10 PM  

Mean Daddy: Another gubmint sponsored green technology bankruptcy in 5,4,3,2,1... but,but this time it's different.  Consumer Reports said so.


And their earnings said so to, but hey, why let real profit get in the way of a good narrative?
 
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