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(BBC)   Vatican declares Mexican Death Saint blasphemous. That's so metallum   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 25
    More: Obvious, Mexican Death Saint, Vatican, Mexican, Geography of Mexico, Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, drug cartels  
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4684 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 May 2013 at 9:00 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-09 12:05:14 PM  
3 votes:

Turbo Cojones: One of a very few original pyramids that the Catholics neglected to destroy (using Indian slave labor, of course)  Way the fark up there.

[payload.cargocollective.com image 850x573]


Which were built by "Mexicans" using slave labor, so your point is...? One of the reasons Cortez had such an easy time taking Mexico was because most of the natives hated the Aztecs and willingly joined forces with the conquistadors.  Destroying the Aztec civilization was a net win for humanity, even if the loss of thier historical records was a tragedy.
2013-05-09 09:57:26 AM  
3 votes:

apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know


Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.
2013-05-09 01:23:26 PM  
2 votes:

czetie: Turbo Cojones: I though that was Christ's job? "Noone shall get to.....but through me" and all that.

That's "no one shall come to the Father except through me", i.e. salvation is through faith in Jesus. As far as prayer is concerned, Jesus expressly ordered his followers to pray directly to God, not to depend on priests or any other intercessors (I'm looking at you, Virgin Mary).

And he told them to call God "Dad" like a child talking to their father ("Abba" in the Aramaic preserved in the NT).

I never cease to be amazed at the ways in which Catholicism ignores or even contradicts its own Holy Book.


Their own "Holy Book" contradicts itself in many places (and they have known this since well before Luthor got out his nails), who are we to assume that such is wrong?  That's why they listen to infallible popes who can correct such minor details that may have been due to mortals having to do all the work in bringing thousands of pages of text for thousands of years into modern English when the original words and language are long since lost.

Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodox) have at least the advantage of losing the single point of failure of the Bible.  Once you realize that the Earth orbits the sun, creationism  is a bad joke, and there are continuity errors strewn throughout the book, Protestantism (using the Bible as the source of all truth about gods) tends to look like a failed idea.  Sure, you can try to figure out which bits are truth and which bits are lies, but you might as well revere The Lord of the Rings as Holy Writ, as at least it makes sense.
2013-05-09 09:59:54 AM  
2 votes:
Maybe they should have thought about that before they "Christianized" Mexicans by enslaving, raping, torturing and robbing from them.

I'm of the opinion that a real Messican (TM) would go all Cartel del Golfo on these bastards.

/Santa Prisca....Used to be covered in gold leaf but 300 years of rain wore it off.  Lots of Injuns died for this.

media-cdn.tripadvisor.com
2013-05-09 09:53:14 AM  
2 votes:
isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know
2013-05-09 09:17:33 AM  
2 votes:
Hey! You can't just make up whatever silly crap you want and get people to worship it... That's the church's job.
2013-05-09 09:04:39 AM  
2 votes:
Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ
2013-05-10 08:52:59 AM  
1 votes:

cynicalbastard: When you get right down to it, however, Papal Infallibility is precisely the same Kool-Aid as belief in the Bible being the literal truth, just a slightly different flavour.


Papal infallibility is itself a relative late addition to the dogma of the Church.
2013-05-09 02:31:46 PM  
1 votes:

DarkVader: seelorq: OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.

Yep, they're deified.  I'm not sure what you'd like me to study, the practice is pretty much out in the open.  The poop declares them saints, and people pray to them.  Sure, there's a process, but part of that process is the ridiculous claim that they performed a supernatural act.


You keep using that word...
2013-05-09 12:44:19 PM  
1 votes:

simplicimus: Silverstaff:
Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.

Dump St. Peter and Revelations and I'm there.


Actually, I double checked after posting this.  The Marcionites accepted as canonical ONLY the Gospel of Luke and some (not all) of the Pauline Epistles as canonical.

That's it.  Revelation was out, the "rock" passage in the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus says Peter will build his Church is out.
2013-05-09 12:37:58 PM  
1 votes:
Silverstaff:
Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.

Dump St. Peter and Revelations and I'm there.
2013-05-09 12:01:23 PM  
1 votes:

apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know


good thing they don't "deify" them then.  Catholic sainthood is really more like getting elected to the Catholic Hall of Fame than anything else, which is why it's a travesty that John Paul II seems to be on the fast track.   Sure the man had amazing career stats, but how many championship rings did he have?  NONE.   Sorry, not good enough to win the big one, not good enough to get an "St." in front of your name in my book
2013-05-09 11:56:44 AM  
1 votes:

SandmanEsq: It always cracks me up when one faith attacks another.  "No,  your faith and devotion to a supernatural force is  wrong because  my supernatural force and method of worshiping it are the  right one."


They aren't attacking another faith, just a perversion within  their own,  which would seem to be within their rights.  Saying "dat shiat ain;t none of ours" is what the keeper of a doctrinal system is SUPPOSED to do, no?
2013-05-09 11:44:51 AM  
1 votes:
more than 70,000 people are estimated to have been killed in drug-related violence over the past six years

What the hell. How is that possible.
2013-05-09 11:43:15 AM  
1 votes:

Anthracite: You didn't write Christianity, the Catholic church did. So who are you to claim what is defiled?


The Catholic Church didn't invent Christianity, they just eradicated all the competing versions early on and held a de facto monopoly on it for many centuries.

Christianity existed as an underground religion for 300 years before the Council of Nicea, where with the backing of the Roman Empire a standardized form of Christianity that would be suitable for use as the State Religion of an empire was created.

All other forms of Christianity in practice such as Gnosticism (God as a good and evil half, and the physical world is an illusion and lie and salvation comes through pursuit of enlightenment), Arianism (the trinity does not exist and Jesus is not a part of God in the trinitarian sense), and Adoptionism (Jesus was not born the Son of God, he was a particularly holy and devout man who was adopted by God as his son and became divine after his birth) were all declared heresies and suppressed/eradicated by the Nicean/Trinitarian version which would become Catholicism, with the might of the Roman Empire to back it up.

Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.
2013-05-09 11:10:36 AM  
1 votes:

Gonz: Ah, it's nice to see that the Catholic Church hasn't forgotten how to occasionally remind people that their native, ancestral religions are blasphemous.


Not saying the church is perfect, but you do realize that human sacrifice was part of that ancestral religion, right? Believe it or not but a central goal of the church is to try to keep a lid on crazy religious crap. No human sacrifice, no sects devoted to terrorism, and in this case no endorsement of a cartel's skeleton god.
Yeah, it's responsible for bloodshed from the start, being Constantine's war banner. But the point is to get everyone organized under a single banner instead of running amok killing each other in small groups. It serves the sociological purpose of a religion better than any other religion in human history.
2013-05-09 10:46:29 AM  
1 votes:
Death and Sex sell. Anyone who's had Sex knows that Death lasts longer.
2013-05-09 10:44:10 AM  
1 votes:

apotheosis27: Xythero: God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ

I was thinking the same thing.  The whole focus of Christianity is death and resurrection.  Even baptism is ritual dying and being reborn.

 simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.

I think that saints are people who are recognized to have experienced the divine.  Catholics are supposed to contemplate their lives in order to experience the same.  I think their deification comes more from folk tradition.  Official Vatican dogma tends to be miles apart from the way most people practice Catholicism.

But people pray to them.  That's deification in my book


Prayer and Worship are two different things. Asking for them to pray on our behalf. The bible is a book written by man and inspired by God.

You didn't write Christianity, the Catholic church did. So who are you to claim what is defiled?
2013-05-09 10:27:07 AM  
1 votes:
To combine threads, wasn't there a Far Side with snails worshipping a salt shaker?

Death is a common visitor in the drug ravaged areas of Mexico. It's no surprise that they've given death a face so they can try and sway the hand of fate. After all, people tend to fear and revere the things that can kill them.

/You should see some of the homemade shrines in the US dedicated to firearms.
2013-05-09 10:25:41 AM  
1 votes:

Xythero: God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ

I was thinking the same thing.  The whole focus of Christianity is death and resurrection.  Even baptism is ritual dying and being reborn.

 simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.

I think that saints are people who are recognized to have experienced the divine.  Catholics are supposed to contemplate their lives in order to experience the same.  I think their deification comes more from folk tradition.  Official Vatican dogma tends to be miles apart from the way most people practice Catholicism.


But people pray to them.  That's deification in my book
2013-05-09 10:13:51 AM  
1 votes:

God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ


I was thinking the same thing.  The whole focus of Christianity is death and resurrection.  Even baptism is ritual dying and being reborn.

 

simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.


I think that saints are people who are recognized to have experienced the divine.  Catholics are supposed to contemplate their lives in order to experience the same.  I think their deification comes more from folk tradition.  Official Vatican dogma tends to be miles apart from the way most people practice Catholicism.
2013-05-09 10:13:30 AM  
1 votes:

Turbo Cojones: I though that was Christ's job? "Noone shall get to.....but through me" and all that.


That's "no one shall come to the Father except through me", i.e. salvation is through faith in Jesus. As far as prayer is concerned, Jesus expressly ordered his followers to pray directly to God, not to depend on priests or any other intercessors (I'm looking at you, Virgin Mary).

And he told them to call God "Dad" like a child talking to their father ("Abba" in the Aramaic preserved in the NT).

I never cease to be amazed at the ways in which Catholicism ignores or even contradicts its own Holy Book.
2013-05-09 10:05:26 AM  
1 votes:
Devotees pray to the saint at home-made altars and often offer votive candles, fruit and tequila in the hope Santa Muerte will grant their wishes.

Obviously the worshippers need to BUY MORE STUFF from the church so it would be okay.
That or Santa Muerte didn't pay the franchise fee's this year.

Oddly nothing about little boys in this.  Must have solved that issue and moved on.
Oh, sorry, let me get a mop for that sarcasm on the floor, careful, don't slip.
2013-05-09 09:55:20 AM  
1 votes:
The priorities of the Vatican never cease to underwhelm me. In St Louis a few years ago, they excommunicated a priest and several members of the board of a church because of a money battle (a polish church with an odd old contract called St. Stanislaus). They've been threatening those nuns that work in charity but *gasp* recognize that people are going to engage in family planning. And this little stupid gem.

I haven't heard of them excommunicating any priests that engaged in heinous acts against kids, or the people who helped cover it up. Or even threatening. Has this happened? It'd be a slight relief to know that one of the largest religions on earth isn't led by *utter* moral bankruptcy.

\Still don't get how ladies can get along with being catholic. Not good enough to priest, not good enough to tithe. Happily, not a real concern of mine.
2013-05-09 09:48:13 AM  
1 votes:
Ah, it's nice to see that the Catholic Church hasn't forgotten how to occasionally remind people that their native, ancestral religions are blasphemous.
 
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