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(BBC)   Vatican declares Mexican Death Saint blasphemous. That's so metallum   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 63
    More: Obvious, Mexican Death Saint, Vatican, Mexican, Geography of Mexico, Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, drug cartels  
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4673 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 May 2013 at 9:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-09 12:37:58 PM  
Silverstaff:
Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.

Dump St. Peter and Revelations and I'm there.
 
2013-05-09 12:44:19 PM  

simplicimus: Silverstaff:
Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.

Dump St. Peter and Revelations and I'm there.


Actually, I double checked after posting this.  The Marcionites accepted as canonical ONLY the Gospel of Luke and some (not all) of the Pauline Epistles as canonical.

That's it.  Revelation was out, the "rock" passage in the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus says Peter will build his Church is out.
 
2013-05-09 01:23:26 PM  

czetie: Turbo Cojones: I though that was Christ's job? "Noone shall get to.....but through me" and all that.

That's "no one shall come to the Father except through me", i.e. salvation is through faith in Jesus. As far as prayer is concerned, Jesus expressly ordered his followers to pray directly to God, not to depend on priests or any other intercessors (I'm looking at you, Virgin Mary).

And he told them to call God "Dad" like a child talking to their father ("Abba" in the Aramaic preserved in the NT).

I never cease to be amazed at the ways in which Catholicism ignores or even contradicts its own Holy Book.


Their own "Holy Book" contradicts itself in many places (and they have known this since well before Luthor got out his nails), who are we to assume that such is wrong?  That's why they listen to infallible popes who can correct such minor details that may have been due to mortals having to do all the work in bringing thousands of pages of text for thousands of years into modern English when the original words and language are long since lost.

Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodox) have at least the advantage of losing the single point of failure of the Bible.  Once you realize that the Earth orbits the sun, creationism  is a bad joke, and there are continuity errors strewn throughout the book, Protestantism (using the Bible as the source of all truth about gods) tends to look like a failed idea.  Sure, you can try to figure out which bits are truth and which bits are lies, but you might as well revere The Lord of the Rings as Holy Writ, as at least it makes sense.
 
2013-05-09 01:23:56 PM  

seelorq: OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.


Yep, they're deified.  I'm not sure what you'd like me to study, the practice is pretty much out in the open.  The poop declares them saints, and people pray to them.  Sure, there's a process, but part of that process is the ridiculous claim that they performed a supernatural act.
 
2013-05-09 02:31:46 PM  

DarkVader: seelorq: OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.

Yep, they're deified.  I'm not sure what you'd like me to study, the practice is pretty much out in the open.  The poop declares them saints, and people pray to them.  Sure, there's a process, but part of that process is the ridiculous claim that they performed a supernatural act.


You keep using that word...
 
2013-05-09 03:41:16 PM  
Death is the ONLY skinny chick in Mexico, amirite?  Or does someone have pics to refute this?  Salma Hayek doesn't count; she doesn't have a Spanish name.
 
2013-05-09 05:57:45 PM  

DarkVader: seelorq: OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.

Yep, they're deified.  I'm not sure what you'd like me to study, the practice is pretty much out in the open.  The poop declares them saints, and people pray to them.  Sure, there's a process, but part of that process is the ridiculous claim that they performed a supernatural act.


You are painting too broadly. Most of the early saints, i.e. the martyrs, were sainted merely because they died for their faith--no miracles necessary. The supernatural miracle stuff is more modern. And some very modern examples, like Blessed Isidore Bakanja of Congo, who was martyred in 1909 and is not yet a saint, is however already beatified having had no miracles. There are relics of him circulating now, and people pray to him already...but he does need a miracle to become canonized, that is, a saint. People also routinely pray to their dead ancestors, yet we do not call them deified.

The word "deified" in this context has a specific meaning, which is significant to Catholics, if not to you.
That was my point. For Catholics, being the subject of prayers in no way implies godlike status, nor does miracle-working. The miracles, to them, come from God, not the saint or other figure through whom they are performed.
 
2013-05-09 06:06:34 PM  
Personally I'm in agreement with the dude that said, way back in the early Middle Ages, about 300 years before the Reformation, even, that the moment the Church accepted the smallest bit of wealth and secular power- way back in Constantine's day?-, it was doomed as a power for good.
 
2013-05-09 07:10:52 PM  

Turbo Cojones: Maybe they should have thought about that before they "Christianized" Mexicans by enslaving, raping, torturing and robbing from them.


The same Mexicans whose previous religion involved cutting peoples' hearts out of their chests while they're still beating?

I suspect this Santa Muerta controversy is less a "Catholic" problem than it is a "Mexican" problem.
 
2013-05-09 10:28:57 PM  

Active introvert: I just got out of the tube man.

Obscure?

Hay the floors look great.


I feel like a new toothbrush.

/ not very obscure
// I may be thinking of an earlier scene though
 
2013-05-10 03:44:00 AM  

yet_another_wumpus: Their own "Holy Book" contradicts itself in many places (and they have known this since well before Luthor got out his nails), who are we to assume that such is wrong?  That's why they listen to infallible popes who can correct such minor details that may have been due to mortals having to do all the work in bringing thousands of pages of text for thousands of years into modern English when the original words and language are long since lost.

Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodox) have at least the advantage of losing the single point of failure of the Bible.  Once you realize that the Earth orbits the sun, creationism  is a bad joke, and there are continuity errors strewn throughout the book, Protestantism (using the Bible as the source of all truth about gods) tends to look like a failed idea.  Sure, you can try to figure out which bits are truth and which bits are lies, but you might as well revere The Lord of the Rings as Holy Writ, as at least it makes sense.



When you get right down to it, however, Papal Infallibility is precisely the same Kool-Aid as belief in the Bible being the literal truth, just a slightly different flavour.
 
2013-05-10 08:52:59 AM  

cynicalbastard: When you get right down to it, however, Papal Infallibility is precisely the same Kool-Aid as belief in the Bible being the literal truth, just a slightly different flavour.


Papal infallibility is itself a relative late addition to the dogma of the Church.
 
2013-05-10 08:54:03 AM  

cynicalbastard: Personally I'm in agreement with the dude that said, way back in the early Middle Ages, about 300 years before the Reformation, even, that the moment the Church accepted the smallest bit of wealth and secular power- way back in Constantine's day?-, it was doomed as a power for good.


Religion is like crime:  a minor nuisance until it's Organized.
 
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