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(BBC)   Vatican declares Mexican Death Saint blasphemous. That's so metallum   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 63
    More: Obvious, Mexican Death Saint, Vatican, Mexican, Geography of Mexico, Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, drug cartels  
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4672 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 May 2013 at 9:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-09 09:03:14 AM
.....Jeff Hanneman?
 
2013-05-09 09:03:58 AM
Better watch out, Francis. You've angered the wrong crowd:

i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-09 09:04:21 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com
Would like word
 
2013-05-09 09:04:31 AM
Damn, they are about to get an Inquisitionin'.

/ no one expects the Spanish Iquisition
 
2013-05-09 09:04:39 AM
Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ
 
2013-05-09 09:06:07 AM

God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ


It celebrates life because most of the time you'll burn in hell upon death.
 
2013-05-09 09:07:26 AM
It always cracks me up when one faith attacks another.  "No,  your faith and devotion to a supernatural force is  wrong because  my supernatural force and method of worshiping it are the  right one."
 
2013-05-09 09:07:45 AM
Religion celebrates life by telling you, you'll go to hell if you enjoy it.
 
2013-05-09 09:09:53 AM
It is represented by a cloaked female skeleton clutching a scythe.

i86.servimg.com

"Go on."
 
2013-05-09 09:12:20 AM
cdn.fearnet.com
"Bound only by the paper-thin wrapper of mortality, a soul here lies, struggling to be free. And so it shall, thanks to a bowl of bad gazpacho, and a man named... Calavera."
 
2013-05-09 09:17:33 AM
Hey! You can't just make up whatever silly crap you want and get people to worship it... That's the church's job.
 
2013-05-09 09:18:05 AM
The cardinal also referred to the fact that the cult is particularly popular among members of Mexico's drug cartels and accused "criminals" of invoking it.

What's up with that. My corporation has a religion, and it's protected commercial speech.
 
2013-05-09 09:23:07 AM
Only shiat the vatican makes up is real, not what the average person makes up
 
2013-05-09 09:26:01 AM
From the doc Whores of Glory.
i.imgur.com

Sorry for letting reality creep in to the happy fun time circle jerk.
 
2013-05-09 09:28:13 AM
Dibs on "Mexican Death Saint" for my garage heavy metal band.
 
2013-05-09 09:32:28 AM
The first thing we need to do is Americanize it.

Santa Murder.

Skeletal Santa Claus in the red outfit with a scythe, bringing sweet sweet death.
 
2013-05-09 09:34:53 AM
FTA:  "The mafia, drug trafficking and organised crime don't have a religious aspect and have nothing to do with religion, even if they use the image of Santa Muerte," he said.

Wrong on all counts, padre.
 
2013-05-09 09:48:12 AM

sincitynewbie: From the doc Whores of Glory.
[i.imgur.com image 600x400]

Sorry for letting reality creep in to the happy fun time circle jerk.


Oh, you just know you're paying a markup for the big-name brand logo. Buy generic and save!
 
2013-05-09 09:48:13 AM
Ah, it's nice to see that the Catholic Church hasn't forgotten how to occasionally remind people that their native, ancestral religions are blasphemous.
 
2013-05-09 09:53:14 AM
isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know
 
2013-05-09 09:55:20 AM
The priorities of the Vatican never cease to underwhelm me. In St Louis a few years ago, they excommunicated a priest and several members of the board of a church because of a money battle (a polish church with an odd old contract called St. Stanislaus). They've been threatening those nuns that work in charity but *gasp* recognize that people are going to engage in family planning. And this little stupid gem.

I haven't heard of them excommunicating any priests that engaged in heinous acts against kids, or the people who helped cover it up. Or even threatening. Has this happened? It'd be a slight relief to know that one of the largest religions on earth isn't led by *utter* moral bankruptcy.

\Still don't get how ladies can get along with being catholic. Not good enough to priest, not good enough to tithe. Happily, not a real concern of mine.
 
2013-05-09 09:57:26 AM

apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know


Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.
 
2013-05-09 09:59:54 AM
Maybe they should have thought about that before they "Christianized" Mexicans by enslaving, raping, torturing and robbing from them.

I'm of the opinion that a real Messican (TM) would go all Cartel del Golfo on these bastards.

/Santa Prisca....Used to be covered in gold leaf but 300 years of rain wore it off.  Lots of Injuns died for this.

media-cdn.tripadvisor.com
 
2013-05-09 10:04:15 AM

simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.


I though that was Christ's job?  "Noone shall get to.....but through me" and all that.  Looks like they are draining profit by pumping up middle-management.
 
2013-05-09 10:05:26 AM
Devotees pray to the saint at home-made altars and often offer votive candles, fruit and tequila in the hope Santa Muerte will grant their wishes.

Obviously the worshippers need to BUY MORE STUFF from the church so it would be okay.
That or Santa Muerte didn't pay the franchise fee's this year.

Oddly nothing about little boys in this.  Must have solved that issue and moved on.
Oh, sorry, let me get a mop for that sarcasm on the floor, careful, don't slip.
 
2013-05-09 10:05:41 AM
I just got out of the tube man.

Obscure?

Hay the floors look great.
 
2013-05-09 10:07:02 AM

simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.


1 Timothy 2:5 not withstanding.
 
2013-05-09 10:07:45 AM
Mexican Death Saint is the name of my mariachi-style My Bloody Valentine cover band.
 
2013-05-09 10:09:00 AM
One of a very few original pyramids that the Catholics neglected to destroy (using Indian slave labor, of course)  Way the fark up there.

payload.cargocollective.com
 
2013-05-09 10:13:30 AM

Turbo Cojones: I though that was Christ's job? "Noone shall get to.....but through me" and all that.


That's "no one shall come to the Father except through me", i.e. salvation is through faith in Jesus. As far as prayer is concerned, Jesus expressly ordered his followers to pray directly to God, not to depend on priests or any other intercessors (I'm looking at you, Virgin Mary).

And he told them to call God "Dad" like a child talking to their father ("Abba" in the Aramaic preserved in the NT).

I never cease to be amazed at the ways in which Catholicism ignores or even contradicts its own Holy Book.
 
2013-05-09 10:13:51 AM

God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ


I was thinking the same thing.  The whole focus of Christianity is death and resurrection.  Even baptism is ritual dying and being reborn.

 

simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.


I think that saints are people who are recognized to have experienced the divine.  Catholics are supposed to contemplate their lives in order to experience the same.  I think their deification comes more from folk tradition.  Official Vatican dogma tends to be miles apart from the way most people practice Catholicism.
 
2013-05-09 10:25:41 AM

Xythero: God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ

I was thinking the same thing.  The whole focus of Christianity is death and resurrection.  Even baptism is ritual dying and being reborn.

 simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.

I think that saints are people who are recognized to have experienced the divine.  Catholics are supposed to contemplate their lives in order to experience the same.  I think their deification comes more from folk tradition.  Official Vatican dogma tends to be miles apart from the way most people practice Catholicism.


But people pray to them.  That's deification in my book
 
2013-05-09 10:27:07 AM
To combine threads, wasn't there a Far Side with snails worshipping a salt shaker?

Death is a common visitor in the drug ravaged areas of Mexico. It's no surprise that they've given death a face so they can try and sway the hand of fate. After all, people tend to fear and revere the things that can kill them.

/You should see some of the homemade shrines in the US dedicated to firearms.
 
2013-05-09 10:44:10 AM

apotheosis27: Xythero: God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ

I was thinking the same thing.  The whole focus of Christianity is death and resurrection.  Even baptism is ritual dying and being reborn.

 simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.

I think that saints are people who are recognized to have experienced the divine.  Catholics are supposed to contemplate their lives in order to experience the same.  I think their deification comes more from folk tradition.  Official Vatican dogma tends to be miles apart from the way most people practice Catholicism.

But people pray to them.  That's deification in my book


Prayer and Worship are two different things. Asking for them to pray on our behalf. The bible is a book written by man and inspired by God.

You didn't write Christianity, the Catholic church did. So who are you to claim what is defiled?
 
2013-05-09 10:46:29 AM
Death and Sex sell. Anyone who's had Sex knows that Death lasts longer.
 
2013-05-09 10:56:01 AM

Anthracite: apotheosis27: Xythero: God-is-a-Taco: Cardinal Ravasi said the practice was "anti-religious". "Religion celebrates life, but here you have death," he said.

The eternal paradise of heaven that rewards sacrifices in life begs to differ

I was thinking the same thing.  The whole focus of Christianity is death and resurrection.  Even baptism is ritual dying and being reborn.

 simplicimus: apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know

Saints are intercessors, not deities. They're the clerks who talk to the manager.

I think that saints are people who are recognized to have experienced the divine.  Catholics are supposed to contemplate their lives in order to experience the same.  I think their deification comes more from folk tradition.  Official Vatican dogma tends to be miles apart from the way most people practice Catholicism.

But people pray to them.  That's deification in my book

Prayer and Worship are two different things. Asking for them to pray on our behalf. The bible is a book written by man and inspired by God.

You didn't write Christianity, the Catholic church did. So who are you to claim what is defiled?


I certainly did write it.  Bow plz
 
2013-05-09 11:10:36 AM

Gonz: Ah, it's nice to see that the Catholic Church hasn't forgotten how to occasionally remind people that their native, ancestral religions are blasphemous.


Not saying the church is perfect, but you do realize that human sacrifice was part of that ancestral religion, right? Believe it or not but a central goal of the church is to try to keep a lid on crazy religious crap. No human sacrifice, no sects devoted to terrorism, and in this case no endorsement of a cartel's skeleton god.
Yeah, it's responsible for bloodshed from the start, being Constantine's war banner. But the point is to get everyone organized under a single banner instead of running amok killing each other in small groups. It serves the sociological purpose of a religion better than any other religion in human history.
 
2013-05-09 11:27:23 AM

Burr: [cdn.fearnet.com image 400x300]
"Bound only by the paper-thin wrapper of mortality, a soul here lies, struggling to be free. And so it shall, thanks to a bowl of bad gazpacho, and a man named... Calavera."


*sigh* I miss that game.
 
2013-05-09 11:32:15 AM
What should disturb Catholics is ...

... it took this long to get an Official Denunciation.

(Santa Muerta's only been around something like 40 years)
 
2013-05-09 11:41:10 AM
OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.
 
2013-05-09 11:43:15 AM

Anthracite: You didn't write Christianity, the Catholic church did. So who are you to claim what is defiled?


The Catholic Church didn't invent Christianity, they just eradicated all the competing versions early on and held a de facto monopoly on it for many centuries.

Christianity existed as an underground religion for 300 years before the Council of Nicea, where with the backing of the Roman Empire a standardized form of Christianity that would be suitable for use as the State Religion of an empire was created.

All other forms of Christianity in practice such as Gnosticism (God as a good and evil half, and the physical world is an illusion and lie and salvation comes through pursuit of enlightenment), Arianism (the trinity does not exist and Jesus is not a part of God in the trinitarian sense), and Adoptionism (Jesus was not born the Son of God, he was a particularly holy and devout man who was adopted by God as his son and became divine after his birth) were all declared heresies and suppressed/eradicated by the Nicean/Trinitarian version which would become Catholicism, with the might of the Roman Empire to back it up.

Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.
 
2013-05-09 11:44:51 AM
more than 70,000 people are estimated to have been killed in drug-related violence over the past six years

What the hell. How is that possible.
 
2013-05-09 11:47:21 AM

Turbo Cojones: [media-cdn.tripadvisor.com image 550x412]


Wow nice. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Prisca_Church_%28Taxco%29
 
2013-05-09 11:50:51 AM
bet they could make an AWESOME movie...

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-09 11:56:44 AM

SandmanEsq: It always cracks me up when one faith attacks another.  "No,  your faith and devotion to a supernatural force is  wrong because  my supernatural force and method of worshiping it are the  right one."


They aren't attacking another faith, just a perversion within  their own,  which would seem to be within their rights.  Saying "dat shiat ain;t none of ours" is what the keeper of a doctrinal system is SUPPOSED to do, no?
 
2013-05-09 11:58:19 AM
The Pope saying that a Saint is fake is like  Bigfoot telling you that the Tooth Fairy is a fraud.
 
2013-05-09 12:01:23 PM

apotheosis27: isn't the Catholic church violating one of the 10 commandments by deifying any saints in the first place?

from what I understand, God doesn't want any of that, but what do I know


good thing they don't "deify" them then.  Catholic sainthood is really more like getting elected to the Catholic Hall of Fame than anything else, which is why it's a travesty that John Paul II seems to be on the fast track.   Sure the man had amazing career stats, but how many championship rings did he have?  NONE.   Sorry, not good enough to win the big one, not good enough to get an "St." in front of your name in my book
 
2013-05-09 12:05:14 PM

Turbo Cojones: One of a very few original pyramids that the Catholics neglected to destroy (using Indian slave labor, of course)  Way the fark up there.

[payload.cargocollective.com image 850x573]


Which were built by "Mexicans" using slave labor, so your point is...? One of the reasons Cortez had such an easy time taking Mexico was because most of the natives hated the Aztecs and willingly joined forces with the conquistadors.  Destroying the Aztec civilization was a net win for humanity, even if the loss of thier historical records was a tragedy.
 
2013-05-09 12:16:29 PM
That figure was kind of cool. Anyone know were I can get one?
 
2013-05-09 12:31:51 PM

Magorn: SandmanEsq: It always cracks me up when one faith attacks another.  "No,  your faith and devotion to a supernatural force is  wrong because  my supernatural force and method of worshiping it are the  right one."

They aren't attacking another faith, just a perversion within  their own,  which would seem to be within their rights.  Saying "dat shiat ain;t none of ours" is what the keeper of a doctrinal system is SUPPOSED to do, no?


They make no claim to Roman Catholicism, so the Vatican is, indeed, poking out at a "different" faith.
 
2013-05-09 12:37:58 PM
Silverstaff:
Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.

Dump St. Peter and Revelations and I'm there.
 
2013-05-09 12:44:19 PM

simplicimus: Silverstaff:
Of the various suppressed sects imagine if the Marcionites had won out.  They held that the God of Abraham was a separate deity completely from Jesus & The Father, and that the Hebrew god was a vengeful and evil deity to be shunned while the god of the New Testament was a completely different forgiving and loving god.  They believed that the "Old Testament" was not canonical scripture, only the gospels and epistles of what would become the New Testament.

Dump St. Peter and Revelations and I'm there.


Actually, I double checked after posting this.  The Marcionites accepted as canonical ONLY the Gospel of Luke and some (not all) of the Pauline Epistles as canonical.

That's it.  Revelation was out, the "rock" passage in the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus says Peter will build his Church is out.
 
2013-05-09 01:23:26 PM

czetie: Turbo Cojones: I though that was Christ's job? "Noone shall get to.....but through me" and all that.

That's "no one shall come to the Father except through me", i.e. salvation is through faith in Jesus. As far as prayer is concerned, Jesus expressly ordered his followers to pray directly to God, not to depend on priests or any other intercessors (I'm looking at you, Virgin Mary).

And he told them to call God "Dad" like a child talking to their father ("Abba" in the Aramaic preserved in the NT).

I never cease to be amazed at the ways in which Catholicism ignores or even contradicts its own Holy Book.


Their own "Holy Book" contradicts itself in many places (and they have known this since well before Luthor got out his nails), who are we to assume that such is wrong?  That's why they listen to infallible popes who can correct such minor details that may have been due to mortals having to do all the work in bringing thousands of pages of text for thousands of years into modern English when the original words and language are long since lost.

Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodox) have at least the advantage of losing the single point of failure of the Bible.  Once you realize that the Earth orbits the sun, creationism  is a bad joke, and there are continuity errors strewn throughout the book, Protestantism (using the Bible as the source of all truth about gods) tends to look like a failed idea.  Sure, you can try to figure out which bits are truth and which bits are lies, but you might as well revere The Lord of the Rings as Holy Writ, as at least it makes sense.
 
2013-05-09 01:23:56 PM

seelorq: OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.


Yep, they're deified.  I'm not sure what you'd like me to study, the practice is pretty much out in the open.  The poop declares them saints, and people pray to them.  Sure, there's a process, but part of that process is the ridiculous claim that they performed a supernatural act.
 
2013-05-09 02:31:46 PM

DarkVader: seelorq: OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.

Yep, they're deified.  I'm not sure what you'd like me to study, the practice is pretty much out in the open.  The poop declares them saints, and people pray to them.  Sure, there's a process, but part of that process is the ridiculous claim that they performed a supernatural act.


You keep using that word...
 
2013-05-09 03:41:16 PM
Death is the ONLY skinny chick in Mexico, amirite?  Or does someone have pics to refute this?  Salma Hayek doesn't count; she doesn't have a Spanish name.
 
2013-05-09 05:57:45 PM

DarkVader: seelorq: OK, people, enough already. Saints are not deified. They are canonized. After being beatified. After being named venerable. After being named a servant of God. There's this whole process and it is not deification despite the fact that their bones and clothes are so highly venerated--even after beatification--that they may be made into relics by Vatican sisters, authenticated with wax seals, and traveled around for people to pray before them, hoping for a miracle.

But they are NOT "deified."

Study it out.

Yep, they're deified.  I'm not sure what you'd like me to study, the practice is pretty much out in the open.  The poop declares them saints, and people pray to them.  Sure, there's a process, but part of that process is the ridiculous claim that they performed a supernatural act.


You are painting too broadly. Most of the early saints, i.e. the martyrs, were sainted merely because they died for their faith--no miracles necessary. The supernatural miracle stuff is more modern. And some very modern examples, like Blessed Isidore Bakanja of Congo, who was martyred in 1909 and is not yet a saint, is however already beatified having had no miracles. There are relics of him circulating now, and people pray to him already...but he does need a miracle to become canonized, that is, a saint. People also routinely pray to their dead ancestors, yet we do not call them deified.

The word "deified" in this context has a specific meaning, which is significant to Catholics, if not to you.
That was my point. For Catholics, being the subject of prayers in no way implies godlike status, nor does miracle-working. The miracles, to them, come from God, not the saint or other figure through whom they are performed.
 
2013-05-09 06:06:34 PM
Personally I'm in agreement with the dude that said, way back in the early Middle Ages, about 300 years before the Reformation, even, that the moment the Church accepted the smallest bit of wealth and secular power- way back in Constantine's day?-, it was doomed as a power for good.
 
2013-05-09 07:10:52 PM

Turbo Cojones: Maybe they should have thought about that before they "Christianized" Mexicans by enslaving, raping, torturing and robbing from them.


The same Mexicans whose previous religion involved cutting peoples' hearts out of their chests while they're still beating?

I suspect this Santa Muerta controversy is less a "Catholic" problem than it is a "Mexican" problem.
 
2013-05-09 10:28:57 PM

Active introvert: I just got out of the tube man.

Obscure?

Hay the floors look great.


I feel like a new toothbrush.

/ not very obscure
// I may be thinking of an earlier scene though
 
2013-05-10 03:44:00 AM

yet_another_wumpus: Their own "Holy Book" contradicts itself in many places (and they have known this since well before Luthor got out his nails), who are we to assume that such is wrong?  That's why they listen to infallible popes who can correct such minor details that may have been due to mortals having to do all the work in bringing thousands of pages of text for thousands of years into modern English when the original words and language are long since lost.

Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodox) have at least the advantage of losing the single point of failure of the Bible.  Once you realize that the Earth orbits the sun, creationism  is a bad joke, and there are continuity errors strewn throughout the book, Protestantism (using the Bible as the source of all truth about gods) tends to look like a failed idea.  Sure, you can try to figure out which bits are truth and which bits are lies, but you might as well revere The Lord of the Rings as Holy Writ, as at least it makes sense.



When you get right down to it, however, Papal Infallibility is precisely the same Kool-Aid as belief in the Bible being the literal truth, just a slightly different flavour.
 
2013-05-10 08:52:59 AM

cynicalbastard: When you get right down to it, however, Papal Infallibility is precisely the same Kool-Aid as belief in the Bible being the literal truth, just a slightly different flavour.


Papal infallibility is itself a relative late addition to the dogma of the Church.
 
2013-05-10 08:54:03 AM

cynicalbastard: Personally I'm in agreement with the dude that said, way back in the early Middle Ages, about 300 years before the Reformation, even, that the moment the Church accepted the smallest bit of wealth and secular power- way back in Constantine's day?-, it was doomed as a power for good.


Religion is like crime:  a minor nuisance until it's Organized.
 
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