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(Reuters)   They all laughed at me when they said I couldn't be profitable with a company of electric cars...BUT WHO'S LAUGHING NOW? BWAHAHAHAHA   (reuters.com) divider line 87
    More: Cool, Model S, capital expenditures, mistakes were made  
•       •       •

3132 clicks; posted to Business » on 09 May 2013 at 8:57 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-09 09:11:19 AM
I wouldn't mind picking one up in the next couple years.
 
2013-05-09 09:15:12 AM
This guy gets a foothold in Europe, watch out. Range issues won't matter as much and he could have a profit center to draw on as he rolls out his charging network in the US. Does sound like a Bond movie plot, doesn't it?
 
2013-05-09 09:20:19 AM

RoxtarRyan: I wouldn't mind picking one up in the next couple years.


Yeah, those Model S's are just awesome looking, and fast too.  I won't be able to afford anything like that for a while, of course.  But I would imagine that Tesla intends to move into "electric vehicles for the masses" as they refine their technology and techniques on the nicer vehicles.
 
2013-05-09 09:20:51 AM
Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?
 
2013-05-09 09:27:21 AM

AngryDragon: Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?


Well, have you seen a Volt and a Leaf? Besides Musk is a class-A disruptor -- and world needs more of those, especially in the tired transportation sector.
 
2013-05-09 09:32:29 AM
Even though I'm not especially fond of PayPal*, at least Elon Musk is actually DOING something with that money - actually making things rather than just buying and selling other corporations. There have been a lot of naysayers regarding Tesla, and SpaceX for that matter, but both have made a hell of a lot of progress in a relatively short time.

Sure, their existing cars are high-performance sports and luxury cars, but you have to start somewhere, and I think they made the right call by going for a pure electric design rather than Fisker's hybrid approach. Sure, it'll be a long time, if ever, before electric cars can charge as quickly as filling a gas tank (not to mention building out a quick-charge station infrastructure), but a Model S could handle a lot of daily routine driving while being charged overnight at home.

If I had the necessary COH (cash on hand) to be in the luxury car market, I'd very likely be rocking a Model S for my normal everyday driving.

* I haven't had any horror-story experiences with them, but I still keep PayPal at arm's length.
 
2013-05-09 09:33:18 AM

AngryDragon: Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?


Crappy miles per charge (especially the Volt, which won't even get me to my bar gigs a mere 45 miles away), awful design (looks like a Smart Car mated with a Prius), while the Tesla has performance, style, and range.

I can go from my house to Boston, back, and still have enough charge to make daily runs to Taco Bell for another few days.
 
2013-05-09 09:34:12 AM
RoxtarRyan: ...., while the Tesla has performance, style, and range.

Doesn't it also cost three times as much?
 
2013-05-09 09:38:34 AM

AngryDragon: Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?


The Leaf has unimpressive range and a look that just screams Hippiemobile.
The Volt, fairly or not, has been made into a symbol of "government green initiative", and is treated with vitriol by the same people that are hoarding incandescent light bulbs.
 
2013-05-09 09:39:15 AM
I guess he doesn't need those subsidies anymore
 
2013-05-09 09:42:37 AM

AngryDragon: Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?


I like all three.  The Volt mostly seems to get hate from right-wingers who are mad at everything GM does.  I'm from SE Michigan, and I can tell you that just about everyone who is affiliated with the GOP around here has done everything short of going around slashing Volt tires in their efforts to make it a failure.

As for Tesla, remember that incident with the derpy CNN reporter who faked his review of the car by effectively making it run out of batteries so he could get a pic of it getting towed away.  There's plenty of people who don't love the Tesla either.
 
2013-05-09 09:43:09 AM

AngryDragon: Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?


I think there are three factors for Volt hate: first, that heavy gasoline-powered engine takes a toll on electric efficiency, second, it's pretty damn expensive for a Chevy that isn't a Corvette, and third, the wharrgarbl factor (GM = Government Motors = socalizms!11!!!!1eleventy!).

As for the Leaf, I certainly don't hate it - it's just that I have no real need (nor budget) for a second vehicle. Otherwise, I'd use the Leaf for routine stuff (my commute and routine activities are well within Leaf range), and keep the Honda for long trips. I think the Leaf haters fall into two categories: those who want Model S performance on a family car budget RIGHT NOW, and those who have a vested interest in petroleum.
 
2013-05-09 09:43:17 AM

Lost Thought 00: I guess he doesn't need those subsidies anymore


..but enough about Exxon
 
2013-05-09 09:47:23 AM

The Bestest: AngryDragon: Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?

The Leaf has unimpressive range and a look that just screams Hippiemobile.
The Volt, fairly or not, has been made into a symbol of "government green initiative", and is treated with vitriol by the same people that are hoarding incandescent light bulbs.


This seems the most accurate.  If I could afford one, I'd be a Volt just to piss off those people that hate the Volt.
 
2013-05-09 09:51:43 AM

AngryDragon: RoxtarRyan: ...., while the Tesla has performance, style, and range.

Doesn't it also cost three times as much?


Base model Volt, $39, Leaf, $36, Tesla S, $62.

May want to reconsider changing your name to "Angry-Because-I-Don't-Know-How-To-Use-Google Dragon".
 
2013-05-09 09:55:55 AM
The base model Leaf is about $28,800 if you don't count the $7500 federal tax credit. At $21,300 net, that's getting into somewhat reasonable territory.
 
2013-05-09 10:00:15 AM

Fubegra: The base model Leaf is about $28,800 if you don't count the $7500 federal tax credit. At $21,300 net, that's getting into somewhat reasonable territory.


The problem is in terms of function/capability, for many people the Leaf isn't very useful except as a -second- car.

Still, ya gotta start somewhere and if Tesla truly find success it'll perhaps convince the big guys to continue development.
 
2013-05-09 10:00:38 AM

AngryDragon: Can someone explain to me why the Volt and Leaf get so much hate, but the Tesla has a rabid following?


Which one of these cars do you think gets you the hand job?

www.teslasociety.com

vs

www.gogreenec.com

vs

images.askmen.com
 
2013-05-09 10:03:34 AM

The Bestest: Fubegra: The base model Leaf is about $28,800 if you don't count the $7500 federal tax credit. At $21,300 net, that's getting into somewhat reasonable territory.

The problem is in terms of function/capability, for many people the Leaf isn't very useful except as a -second- car.

Still, ya gotta start somewhere and if Tesla truly find success it'll perhaps convince the big guys to continue development.


If Nissan fixed the problem with their keyless entry, I'd buy a Leaf when my Sentra dies (it's a '10, so hopefully not for many years) or when I need a second car.

// or if gas goes to $10/gal
 
2013-05-09 10:04:39 AM

Fubegra: The base model Leaf is about $28,800 if you don't count the $7500 federal tax credit. At $21,300 net, that's getting into somewhat reasonable territory.


Huh... yeah, looks like they dropped the price almost $8k from last year. Still isn't worth it, IMO... not a huge fan of the style of it.
 
2013-05-09 10:34:57 AM

HMS_Blinkin: As for Tesla, remember that incident with the derpy CNN reporter who faked his review of the car by effectively making it run out of batteries so he could get a pic of it getting towed away.  There's plenty of people who don't love the Tesla either.


That would have been the NYTimes' John Broder.  CNN did a repeat and it worked out fine, except it was warmer and they did it in a day, so not a perfect comparison.

Broder may be a dick, but as a technologist I know the deal: if you're arguing about the details with a potential customer, you've lost already.  It should blow people away and worries should be minimal.  shiat like this seems pretty worrisome:  http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/44-update-bricked-my-model-s

If my phone is useless due to a firmware update that's one thing.   My car, WTF?  And before anyone starts with how all cars have e-modules, I can reset that shiat in 10 seconds and it isn't connected to the internet.
 
2013-05-09 10:37:05 AM

Fubegra: Sure, it'll be a long time, if ever, before electric cars can charge as quickly as filling a gas tank


The biggest misconception with electric cars is that there is some technological barrier to charging them sufficiently fast.  In actuality, the only remaining barriers are 1. Batteries are still too expensive to have relatively big packs. 2. The fast charger infrastructure is not yet sufficient.

If batteries were cheap enough that you could have a 300 mile pack, and if there were fast chargers available every 50 miles, there would be no range anxiety with TODAY'S technology.  Things to consider:

1. With an EV, you start with a "full tank" every morning.  So the only time range matters is when you need to drive more than the range in a single day.  With the ~100 mile cars like the leaf, this can be an occasional problem, though less likely than you think (I have an EV with an 80 mile range...I hardly ever have issues).  But with a 300 mile range, you would only face the issue when you are driving at freeway speeds for about 6 hours.  Which brings me to part 2.

2. Today's batteries can safely charge to 80 percent at a rate of 3C (that means it is charging at a rate that would fill the battery in 20 minutes.  For a 300 mile pack, that's a rate of 15 miles per minute).  So if fast chargers were readily available that could charge at that rate (about 300kW...not a problem) then you could drive indefinitely if you stopped once to pee for 5 minutes and once to grab fast food for 15 minutes every 6 hours.

No range anxiety ever.  We are used to worrying about the rate it takes to refill our gas tank, because we have to stop when we are on the way somewhere.  With EVs, you almost never charge on the road.
 
2013-05-09 10:37:27 AM

RoxtarRyan: AngryDragon: RoxtarRyan: ...., while the Tesla has performance, style, and range.

Doesn't it also cost three times as much?

Base model Volt, $39, Leaf, $36, Tesla S, $62.

May want to reconsider changing your name to "Angry-Because-I-Don't-Know-How-To-Use-Google Dragon".


Really?

Top Model Volt, $44, Tesla Sport Roadster $128.

My point still stands.  Why are the Leaf and Volt vilified when the Tesla is so expensive?  I remember the cries of "Who in their right mind would pay $39,000 for an electric car?!  There's no market!"  Yet a $62,000 electric car (15% more expensive) is hailed as the savior of green tech.  It doesn't make any sense.
 
2013-05-09 10:37:53 AM
Tesla works because they did it right, like it or not Electric Cars are (for the time being at least) niche vehicles.  Tesla makes attractive luxury style vehicles, that are expensive and appeal to high end buyers who can most likely afford to have 2 or three cars in their garage.  The Volt's interior feels cheap for the price, and the Leaf has no redeeming qualities what so ever except for the drive train.  A Nissan Sentra feels nicer than the Leaf.
 
2013-05-09 10:42:14 AM

AngryDragon: RoxtarRyan: AngryDragon: RoxtarRyan: ...., while the Tesla has performance, style, and range.

Doesn't it also cost three times as much?

Base model Volt, $39, Leaf, $36, Tesla S, $62.

May want to reconsider changing your name to "Angry-Because-I-Don't-Know-How-To-Use-Google Dragon".

Really?

Top Model Volt, $44, Tesla Sport Roadster $128.

My point still stands.  Why are the Leaf and Volt vilified when the Tesla is so expensive?  I remember the cries of "Who in their right mind would pay $39,000 for an electric car?!  There's no market!"  Yet a $62,000 electric car (37% more expensive) is hailed as the savior of green tech.  It doesn't make any sense.


WTF is with my math today?  FTFM
 
2013-05-09 10:48:26 AM

RoxtarRyan: AngryDragon: RoxtarRyan: ...., while the Tesla has performance, style, and range.

Doesn't it also cost three times as much?

Base model Volt, $39, Leaf, $36, Tesla S, $62.

May want to reconsider changing your name to "Angry-Because-I-Don't-Know-How-To-Use-Google Dragon".


If you knew how to use Google News, you would know that the cheapest Tesla Model S is being killed off. base price is now $73k.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/04/tesla-model-s-40-kwh/

if you also knew how to use Google, you would discover that GM & Nissan are cutting the prices of their offerings:

Nissan Leaf now starts at $29k, and GM is seeking a price cut for the Volt between $7500 and $10,000
 
2013-05-09 10:49:13 AM

Hollie Maea: 1. Batteries are still too expensive to have relatively big packs.


progress is being made on that front
 
2013-05-09 10:49:22 AM
 
2013-05-09 10:57:37 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I'd rather get a Zero-S
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s
[www.zeromotorcycles.com image 850x347]


I don't know much about motocycles, is 14K for a motorcycle outrageous?
 
2013-05-09 10:59:03 AM

AngryDragon: My point still stands. Why are the Leaf and Volt vilified when the Tesla is so expensive? I remember the cries of "Who in their right mind would pay $39,000 for an electric car?! There's no market!" Yet a $62,000 electric car (15% more expensive) is hailed as the savior of green tech. It doesn't make any sense.


Some of the biggest turn-offs of electric cars are their design and lack of miles per charge (emphasis intentional). The Tesla company found a way to get past both of those. They made a car that you can easily drive from NY to Boston on a single charge, looks damn good, and outperforms some of the best performance cars available to consumers. The extra money put into it increases the useability of the vehicle, and seeing how vehicles (between cars and SUVs) get a combined 20MPG, gas is likely going to continue this trend of jumping up to $4/gallon because a cat farts is Taiwan, why the hell wouldn't someone who wants an electric vehicle put down another $20-$30k for something that out performs, goes a HELL of a lot farther, and looks a lot nicer than even traditional gas-powered vehicles? Why not save up for another few months?

Not really sure what you're not getting. You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you work for Chevy or Nissan and are bitter because your cars just aren't what people are craving.
 
2013-05-09 11:05:23 AM

max_pooper: I don't know much about motocycles, is 14K for a motorcycle outrageous?


Depends on which ones you're comparing them to.
 
2013-05-09 11:07:42 AM

max_pooper: I don't know much about motocycles, is 14K for a motorcycle outrageous?


Nope... About right, maybe a couple thousand more than what you'd expect to pay for a traditional bike. The miles per charge looks pretty damn good, too. Hmmmm.....
 
2013-05-09 11:10:47 AM

The Bestest: max_pooper: I don't know much about motocycles, is 14K for a motorcycle outrageous?

Depends on which ones you're comparing them to.


Well yeah, crotch-rockets vs. cruisers or large touring style bikes (like Goldwings) is like night vs. day. For long trips, a touring or cruiser style bike is more my style. Thought dealing with a 900lb cruiser is a lot more difficult than maneuvering a 400lb crotch rocket, it has a bit more "cargo space" and other nice features, like stereo, windshield, etc.
 
2013-05-09 11:16:30 AM

RoxtarRyan: max_pooper: I don't know much about motocycles, is 14K for a motorcycle outrageous?

Nope... About right, maybe a couple thousand more than what you'd expect to pay for a traditional bike. The miles per charge looks pretty damn good, too. Hmmmm.....


Where on the electric bike does one affix the "Loud Pipes Saves Lives" sticker?
 
2013-05-09 11:25:18 AM

max_pooper: Where on the electric bike does one affix the "Loud Pipes Saves Lives" sticker?


Right next to the NOS and RedBull/Mountain Dew sticker. For every sticker you put on it, you get an extra 5MPC!
 
2013-05-09 11:25:39 AM

RoxtarRyan: AngryDragon: My point still stands. Why are the Leaf and Volt vilified when the Tesla is so expensive? I remember the cries of "Who in their right mind would pay $39,000 for an electric car?! There's no market!" Yet a $62,000 electric car (15% more expensive) is hailed as the savior of green tech. It doesn't make any sense.

Some of the biggest turn-offs of electric cars are their design and lack of miles per charge (emphasis intentional). The Tesla company found a way to get past both of those. They made a car that you can easily drive from NY to Boston on a single charge, looks damn good, and outperforms some of the best performance cars available to consumers. The extra money put into it increases the useability of the vehicle, and seeing how vehicles (between cars and SUVs) get a combined 20MPG, gas is likely going to continue this trend of jumping up to $4/gallon because a cat farts is Taiwan, why the hell wouldn't someone who wants an electric vehicle put down another $20-$30k for something that out performs, goes a HELL of a lot farther, and looks a lot nicer than even traditional gas-powered vehicles? Why not save up for another few months?

Not really sure what you're not getting. You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you work for Chevy or Nissan and are bitter because your cars just aren't what people are craving.


Any car company could build an electric car for $65K.  Hell, for $25K more, GM could probably make the Volt have a 200 mile range and look like a CTS.  And THAT is my point.  Only a luxury car buyer will even look at this thing.  So again I ask, why all the hatred for the affordable (sub-30k) electric car models when the Tesla  gets such high marks.

Don't misunderstand me.  I think the Tesla looks great.  There is no way in hell I would spend $65K + on a car though...any car.
 
2013-05-09 11:30:04 AM

AngryDragon: Any car company could build an electric car for $65K.  Hell, for $25K more, GM could probably make the Volt have a 200 mile range and look like a CTS.


..and yet, they don't. That's -my- point.
Like I said though, if Tesla truly finds success, maybe attitudes in the big names will change and we'll start seeing some real advancement.
 
2013-05-09 11:34:59 AM

AngryDragon: There is no way in hell I would spend $65K + on a car though...any car.


True, to each their own! Some people buy Smart Cars. Why, I have no goddamn idea. They are only good for not having to parallel park, but their MPG isn't terribly impressive.
 
2013-05-09 11:38:18 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I'd rather get a Zero-S
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s
[www.zeromotorcycles.com image 850x347]


you are what you drive.
 
2013-05-09 11:38:22 AM

AngryDragon: Any car company could build an electric car for $65K.


Clearly not since others have tried and failed.  Fisker most recently and spectacularly.
 
2013-05-09 11:39:46 AM
Tesla is going to announce big news today on the charging front...
 
2013-05-09 11:41:31 AM

AngryDragon: Any car company could build an electric car for $65K. Hell, for $25K more, GM could probably make the Volt have a 200 mile range and look like a CTS. And THAT is my point. Only a luxury car buyer will even look at this thing. So again I ask, why all the hatred for the affordable (sub-30k) electric car models when the Tesla gets such high marks.

Don't misunderstand me. I think the Tesla looks great. There is no way in hell I would spend $65K + on a car though...any car.


Have you been in a Volt?  A lot of people hate them because they genuinely think they suck.  I have a friend who is an engineer at GM.  The friend has brought a Volt to our place (on the west side of the state) a couple times.  The issue is, that if they leave the Detroit area with a full charge, that runs out in about 20-25 miles.  They then drive a gas-powered car that isn't great to drive and gets like 30 MPG for the remainder of the ~150 mile trip to our house.  They get to our house and we plug it in.  The next morning, we'll drive the Volt into town for breakfast and to do some shopping.  ~24 miles into that shopping, the Volt battery is dead again and we're running on gas.  Except that at every stop sign or stop light, it goes halfway through the intersection on electricity (thinking it's charged up a bit and should use it) and then abruptly switches to gas.  The transition is jerky and annoying and it happens all the time around town once the batteries are depleted.

I want electric cars to be awesome.  I think the Tesla Model S is sweet and if everything I've seen about it is true then it's a game-changer and a car I'd consider buying.

The Volt isn't awesome.  It actually sucks pretty bad.

If nothing else, consider how little gas you're actually saving if you can only do 25 miles a day on electricity.  Compared to a car that gets 40 MPG (which is easy to get in the Volt's class), you've only saved 0.625 gallons using that electricity and then you're taking a gas penalty by driving a car that doesn't get very good mileage on its IC motor.  Drive it too far and you'll end up using more gas than you would have if you just drove a fuel-efficient hybrid like a Prius and you'll have wasted your time and electricity plugging it in.

If you do happen to drive 25 miles a day and never use gas, then you're still only saving like 0.625 gallons a day.  Five days a week, fifty weeks a year and you can save a little over 150 gallons of gas in a year.  That's the most you can hope to save in gas in a Volt.  Not enough to make it worth driving the thing, IMO.
 
2013-05-09 11:41:37 AM

RoxtarRyan: AngryDragon: There is no way in hell I would spend $65K + on a car though...any car.

True, to each their own! Some people buy Smart Cars. Why, I have no goddamn idea. They are only good for not having to parallel park, but their MPG isn't terribly impressive.


You can also park two in a single parking space. I know some downtown condo dwellers who have them for that reason.
 
2013-05-09 11:51:21 AM

AngryDragon: I remember the cries of "Who in their right mind would pay $39,000 for an electric car?! There's no market!" Yet a $62,000 electric car (15% more expensive) is hailed as the savior of green tech. It doesn't make any sense.


Isn't $62k 59% more expensive than $39k?
 
2013-05-09 11:58:32 AM
Living in Idaho, the Leaf isn't really a viable option for me.   It is 20 highway miles to my job.   It is 75 miles to the nearest dealer who actually will work on a Leaf

Tesla is awesome.   It has the range to deal with distances I have to travel to get to the places I want to be.   But it is a luxury.   I can only buy one if I win the lottery.   Nearest Tesla store is over 500 miles away in Portland.    If I were to buy one, I would have to have it trucked in.   It would deal with 90% of my driving perfectly.    But I would still need to have a gasoline powered car for the rest of the miles.  No charging stations in Idaho.
 
2013-05-09 12:04:14 PM

Parkanzky: Five days a week, fifty weeks a year and you can save a little over 150 gallons of gas in a year.


At $3.50/gal, that's $525 saved for the year. If the average lifespan of a car is 10 years, you've saved over 5 grand - enough to buy a decent used car (in 10 years, that might actually be a Tesla).

// at $4/gal, that's $600/year or 6 grand over the car's lifespan
 
2013-05-09 12:10:53 PM
Its a rich mans car with tax subsidies provided by the middle class tax payer.  A Model S equipped with a 60 kilowatt battery starts at around $70,000 before a $7,500 tax credit.  Some consider this subsidy to the 1% outrageous.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-09 12:14:30 PM

SamWaters: Its a rich mans car with tax subsidies provided by the middle class tax payer.  A Model S equipped with a 60 kilowatt battery starts at around $70,000 before a $7,500 tax credit.  Some consider this subsidy to the 1% outrageous.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 265x293]


The biggest subsidy of all time is "free carbon dioxide emissions".
 
2013-05-09 12:16:13 PM

dumbobruni: RoxtarRyan: AngryDragon: RoxtarRyan: ...., while the Tesla has performance, style, and range.

Doesn't it also cost three times as much?

Base model Volt, $39, Leaf, $36, Tesla S, $62.

May want to reconsider changing your name to "Angry-Because-I-Don't-Know-How-To-Use-Google Dragon".

If you knew how to use Google News, you would know that the cheapest Tesla Model S is being killed off. base price is now $73k.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/04/tesla-model-s-40-kwh/


That's not surprising.  The cheapest model had a 160-mile range, which is certainly better than the Leaf, but still short enough to give people range anxiety.  Since people who have the sort of money that allows them to buy a Model S can usually afford to buy the higher-end model that doesn't give them range anxiety, the 160-mile model sold poorly.

P.S.  Tesla has stated that one of their major goals at this point is to push down the price of the Model S, so that more people can afford one without having to sacrifice range.
 
2013-05-09 12:19:49 PM
If you want the next generation of tech to be available for the masses, you have to subsidize it for the rich first.  That's the way it works, new technologies don't spring forth at cheap prices right away.  Look at computers, in the early 80's they were toys for the rich.  When enough rich people and companies bought them, they became more affordable.  The Volt and the Leaf will fail because the companies behind them are not 100% committed to electric vehicles, they're still mostly in an internal combustion world.  Tesla is the one that does it right, doing away with all the bad habits of the existing monopoly.  We're very close to having electrics that get 1,000 miles per charge, which will make all internal combustion obsolete.  But the process progresses in steps, not leaps.
 
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