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(USA Today)   Dear Cleveland police. 911 calls from neighbors about naked women being lead around on dog leashes MIGHT just be nothing more than a really swinging S&M party, but you still maybe oughta send a car by to check it out   (usatoday.com) divider line 160
    More: Followup, Cleveland Police, Cleveland, Gina DeJesus, Ariel Castro, law enforcement officials, nudities, Department of Public Safety  
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10236 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 11:51 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-08 10:45:17 AM
hindsight
 
2013-05-08 10:47:07 AM

colinspooky: hindsight


Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.
 
2013-05-08 10:48:23 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.


No, but it is worth looking into.  I recall an incident some years back where police busted what they thought was a rape in progress, but when all of the parties were questioned, it turned out to be a staged rape that the woman wanted, a fantasy of hers or something.  No one was charged, but some things are worth looking into.
 
2013-05-08 11:01:58 AM

nekom: Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.

No, but it is worth looking into.  I recall an incident some years back where police busted what they thought was a rape in progress, but when all of the parties were questioned, it turned out to be a staged rape that the woman wanted, a fantasy of hers or something.  No one was charged, but some things are worth looking into.


Trust me, man, if the cops were called to "look into" every sex practice someone doesn't like, that would be a Very Bad Thing.  For example - in Georgia, thanks to the Hardwick case, blow jobs were illegal until 2003 (Lawrence v Texas).  If your neighbor was a batshiat fundie who though blow jobs were a form of coercion, caught a glimpse through your drapes, and called the cops on you every goddamn time you got a blow job, how would that make you feel about things?  And they'd be reporting a crime.

Hindsight, 20/20, that sort of thing  We know today it was bad.  2 weeks ago, we would have been vilifying the cops for going after people doing something totally legal, especially if the victim had said it was consensual.
 
2013-05-08 11:05:39 AM
Yep, too many people enjoy thing others find unusual. If the police were called every time, doughnut stores would go broke across your whole nation, with the resulting job losses across associated businesses
 
2013-05-08 11:07:39 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.


however leading a NAKED one around on a leash outside, at the very least violates public deceny laws which is enough to check it ou
 
2013-05-08 11:56:58 AM
After everything that I have read on the case I am very angry

Thank god we have a federal law making it illegal to kill a fetus without the mothers permission.

farker can get the needle for that.
 
2013-05-08 11:56:59 AM
Pete and repeat.
 
2013-05-08 11:57:25 AM
It's a repeat and a waste of money...
 
2013-05-08 11:58:31 AM
I think that people who engage in kinky practices such as pretend rape and D+S probably understand why perhaps a cop might stop by to make sure everything is okay. In fact, I'd be happy and feel much safer and have more faith in the system if that had indeed happened. Nothing wrong with being kinky, so long as all parties involved are okay with it. If someone calls and says they see a woman (or man) chained in a basement - yeah it COULD just be kinky sex but it also could be something much worse.

Benevolent Misanthrope: Hindsight, 20/20, that sort of thing  We know today it was bad.  2 weeks ago, we would have been vilifying the cops for going after people doing something totally legal, especially if the victim had said it was consensual.


"Going after" is not the same as checking up on a neighbod's complaint to make sure that no one was doing something against their will.
 
2013-05-08 11:58:34 AM
Dear news media (and dumbmitter): just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. In fairness to the media, though, the Boston Marathon was a long, long, long time ago, so the lessons learned in that media debacle have understandably faded.
 
2013-05-08 11:58:45 AM
Pics or it didn't happen.
 
2013-05-08 11:59:43 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: If your neighbor was a batshiat fundie who though blow jobs were a form of coercion, caught a glimpse through your drapes, and called the cops on you every goddamn time you got a blow job, how would that make you feel about things?


I would feel like I might need new drapes.
 
2013-05-08 12:00:20 PM

DeathCipris: Pete and repeat.


Charlie Chingas: It's a repeat and a waste of money...


Is it acceptable to call repeat on the Followup tag?

/probably
//shut up Pfom!!, you cock
 
2013-05-08 12:01:41 PM
led
 
2013-05-08 12:02:21 PM
I've seen naked women/men being lead around on dog leashes in San Francisco & Berkeley if I saw it in  Cleveland I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
 
2013-05-08 12:02:49 PM

cman: After everything that I have read on the case I am very angry

Thank god we have a federal law making it illegal to kill a fetus without the mothers permission. Constitution that allows the news media to report anything it wants without any concern over whether it's true.

 
2013-05-08 12:05:34 PM
The past tense of lead is led, dumbmitter.
 
2013-05-08 12:05:58 PM
aaaaaaaand lawsuit from one of the families against the police department in 3, 2, 1...
 
2013-05-08 12:07:38 PM

Pants full of macaroni!!: DeathCipris: Pete and repeat.

Charlie Chingas: It's a repeat and a waste of money...

Is it acceptable to call repeat on the Followup tag?

/probably
//shut up Pfom!!, you cock


??
 
2013-05-08 12:08:02 PM
Why is it that I always find out about these slave dungeons AFTER they've been raided?
 
2013-05-08 12:08:14 PM

ricewater_stool: The past tense of lead is led, dumbmitter.


Thank you.  I red the headline my left eye just started twitching...
 
2013-05-08 12:08:22 PM

Magorn: however leading a NAKED one around on a leash outside, at the very least violates public deceny laws which is enough to check it ou


Am I the only one who read "hindsight" and thought "Dat Azz"?

Aisle seat, please.  Leg room.
 
2013-05-08 12:09:48 PM
I don't even want to imagine the beating you'd catch for accidently coming on a cop.
 
2013-05-08 12:09:54 PM
This was in the back yard of a residential neighborhood.  Yes the police can "check into it" without trampling your dog-collar-wearing fetish rights.

Then they can mark you down as _______ and won't come out to your house every night. Do people really have sex in the backyard so often that they need not ever be disturbed?
 
2013-05-08 12:10:27 PM
Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?
 
2013-05-08 12:10:41 PM
Please, Cleveland PD ignored a serial killer for years. There were abuse reports made by "crackheads" and "hookers" so they were not followed-up, and a madman was able to kill several women and keep their bodies in his home. The caveat? The complaints about rancid meat were traced to the meat factory down the street, so the health department cited them and they paid to have all new drainage systems installed. When the smells didn't stop, they kept fining the meat plant... all the while the bodies of seven women were decomposing in a house... including a few in the back yard, and because the people who tried to report it were "nobodies" the CPD didn't even inspect the house when the guy claimed it was a lover's quarrel.

Cleveland Police sucks. So glad that I escaped.
 
2013-05-08 12:13:11 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: nekom: Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.

No, but it is worth looking into.  I recall an incident some years back where police busted what they thought was a rape in progress, but when all of the parties were questioned, it turned out to be a staged rape that the woman wanted, a fantasy of hers or something.  No one was charged, but some things are worth looking into.

Trust me, man, if the cops were called to "look into" every sex practice someone doesn't like, that would be a Very Bad Thing.  For example - in Georgia, thanks to the Hardwick case, blow jobs were illegal until 2003 (Lawrence v Texas).  If your neighbor was a batshiat fundie who though blow jobs were a form of coercion, caught a glimpse through your drapes, and called the cops on you every goddamn time you got a blow job, how would that make you feel about things?  And they'd be reporting a crime.

Hindsight, 20/20, that sort of thing  We know today it was bad.  2 weeks ago, we would have been vilifying the cops for going after people doing something totally legal, especially if the victim had said it was consensual.


You have to show consent in S&M videos.

Enquiring about consent from law enforcement and the creation of a incident report, gathering of data is what helps cases get cracked.
 
2013-05-08 12:14:51 PM
They were just taking the dogs out to release the bowels, they didnt want to have to clean up after them in the basement.
Housebroken, what good girls...
 
2013-05-08 12:17:11 PM

SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?


0/10, terrible
 
2013-05-08 12:18:22 PM

CliChe Guevara: aaaaaaaand lawsuit from one of the families against the police department in 3, 2, 1...


Grumpycatgood.jpg
 
2013-05-08 12:18:38 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: I would feel like I might need new drapes.


I wiped my dick on the old ones, so...yeah.
 
2013-05-08 12:19:07 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: nekom: Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.

No, but it is worth looking into.  I recall an incident some years back where police busted what they thought was a rape in progress, but when all of the parties were questioned, it turned out to be a staged rape that the woman wanted, a fantasy of hers or something.  No one was charged, but some things are worth looking into.

Trust me, man, if the cops were called to "look into" every sex practice someone doesn't like, that would be a Very Bad Thing.  For example - in Georgia, thanks to the Hardwick case, blow jobs were illegal until 2003 (Lawrence v Texas).  If your neighbor was a batshiat fundie who though blow jobs were a form of coercion, caught a glimpse through your drapes, and called the cops on you every goddamn time you got a blow job, how would that make you feel about things?  And they'd be reporting a crime.

Hindsight, 20/20, that sort of thing  We know today it was bad.  2 weeks ago, we would have been vilifying the cops for going after people doing something totally legal, especially if the victim had said it was consensual.


We aren't talking about people having sex inside their home. We are talking about naked women on leashes IN THE YARD. Even if it's consentual isn't it illegal to run around naked in your yard where neighbors can see you? I would think so.
 
2013-05-08 12:21:02 PM

SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?


hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?
 
2013-05-08 12:21:28 PM
At least the police are doing the next best thing, denying they were called.
 
2013-05-08 12:22:21 PM

colinspooky: Yep, too many people enjoy thing others find unusual. If the police were called every time, doughnut stores would go broke across your whole nation, with the resulting job losses across associated businesses


Exactly. Like another poster said, a very small minority women enjoy simulated rape, so the police should stop responding to reported rapes because it is probably just one of them. A small number of other people enjoy playing "fight club" so they should also stop responding to reported assaults as well. Contacting the parties involved to ensure that they are all consenting would take waaaay too much work, so it is best to assume that they are in the minority who do consent to such things.
 
2013-05-08 12:22:37 PM
How do you walk that line between "we're just having a good time" and "I'm a really bad person. No, really."
When someone horrible does something perverse and non-consensual, you would hope that the police would be able to know and stop it.
Or is it like the Internets, where the presence of so many trolls and weirdos make it unpossible to really know when someone's really messed up?...

Remember Dugard's kidnapping? Police missed that one too. Very very sad.
 
2013-05-08 12:22:39 PM

Magorn: Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.

however leading a NAKED one around on a leash outside, at the very least violates public deceny laws which is enough to check it ou


Depends where they are being lead around naked.  If someone is busy looking out of their window in to your back garden... that's quite different to walking down the street like that.
 
2013-05-08 12:23:49 PM

Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?


Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.
 
2013-05-08 12:25:18 PM
Yeah, sometimes you just have to roll the dice and hope the cops are as kinky as you are.

/always been lucky there.. but I know some folks who haven't.
//consent forms, while not always legally binding, go a long way in defusing potentially awkward police visits.
 
2013-05-08 12:25:24 PM
To be fair to the Cleveland Police, they claim not to have records of those calls.  We should wait until the women have a chance to be interviewed and see if those events ever happened.

Not that I doubt the Cleveland Police might have screwed up, but their records only show two calls for that house, one of which was before any of the girls disappeared.  There is plenty to investigate here.  The people making the accusations may have an axe to grind.

/I know, I know.  Welcome to Fark.
//Lives in Cleveland.
///About a mile from that house.
 
2013-05-08 12:27:22 PM

EponymousCowHerd: To be fair to the Cleveland Police, they claim not to have records of those calls.


I am shocked that they no longer have the records they have destroyed in order to save face.
 
2013-05-08 12:28:23 PM
What the fark is wrong with some of you people. You know which ones you are, and I hope you get a whole heap of karma just for thinking such vile things. Ugh!
 
2013-05-08 12:28:42 PM
And in other cop-hate threads, we are told in no uncertain terms the folly of allowing cops to enter our homes without a warrant.  I am wondering what type of warrant a single siting of a naked woman outside would justify and why cops would go see a judge over that.

I imagine all the puritans are going to grab their new found abilities to harass anyone who throws a "really swinging S&M party" for the foreseeable future.
 
2013-05-08 12:29:41 PM

Charlie Chingas: ??


Nevermind, just talkin' to myself.
 
2013-05-08 12:31:07 PM
SithLord:
Magorn:


What's wrong with both of you farknuts?

Take it to the politics tab.
 
2013-05-08 12:31:46 PM
I hope the pukes who took these girls get 23.5 hours of solitary a day for the remainder of their miserable lives.

Restraining them to a chair with the same ropes and chains in the same house they held these girls in and letting the fathers of said girls go at them with immunity is far more fitting.

yea I know, rule of law and such.
 
2013-05-08 12:35:27 PM

colinspooky: hindsight


yea, boarded up windows, reports of pensive and scared women and child at the windows is nothing to be checked into.

They probably have some college kids with weed to bust anyway, and they are easier and more cooperative anyway.  Kidnappers and rapists sometimes fight back and shiat, and really, who needs that?
 
2013-05-08 12:36:14 PM

EponymousCowHerd: To be fair to the Cleveland Police, they claim not to have records of those calls.  We should wait until the women have a chance to be interviewed and see if those events ever happened.

Not that I doubt the Cleveland Police might have screwed up, but their records only show two calls for that house, one of which was before any of the girls disappeared.  There is plenty to investigate here.  The people making the accusations may have an axe to grind.

/I know, I know.  Welcome to Fark.
//Lives in Cleveland.
///About a mile from that house.


This.  I want to see how that issue plays out.  If I were one of their neighbors, I would feel awful about it going on quite near me, but I don't think I'd make up a story about how I had called the cops about something weird.

/My best wishes to the three women, the little girl, and their families.  I hope they find peace somehow.
 
2013-05-08 12:37:25 PM
Diverting resources from traffic enforcement to actually fight crime?
 
2013-05-08 12:38:03 PM

Speaker2Animals: cman: After everything that I have read on the case I am very angry

Thank god we have a federal law making it illegal to kill a fetus without the mothers permission. Constitution that allows the news media to report anything it wants without any concern over whether it's true.


While the constitution does protect the press, it matters not in this case, because my statement is backed up by fact
 
2013-05-08 12:40:17 PM
Emily Castro, Ariel's daughter, is serving 25 years in prison for attempting to murder her infant daughter.

It runs in the family!
 
2013-05-08 12:41:16 PM

dmax: How do you walk that line between "we're just having a good time" and "I'm a really bad person. No, really."
When someone horrible does something perverse and non-consensual, you would hope that the police would be able to know and stop it.
Or is it like the Internets, where the presence of so many trolls and weirdos make it unpossible to really know when someone's really messed up?...

Remember Dugard's kidnapping? Police missed that one too. Very very sad.


Dugard and this case also had contact with vulnerable people too. The female captor of Dugard worked as a caregiver for a vulnerable population while this Ariel Castro drove them on a bus. How was he NOT FIRED for the incident on the bus in 2004? Frightening!
 
2013-05-08 12:41:31 PM

SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.


No you didn't and that's what I'm pointing out.    We Liberals are big believers in "small government" you see, and so don;t believe that, as long as no one is being harmed, the government has a right to regulate private behavior,    Thus we are all in favor of anyone getting their swerve on in any fashion they like, so long as A) everyone involved is an adult B) everyone freely consents to the activity at hand.  Now which of those two conditions are not present in this scenario?  Equating these guys with the S&M community is about as offensive as the idiots that link homosexuality and pedophilia.
 
2013-05-08 12:44:16 PM
I enjoy S&M parties. That's when I mix my Skittles and M&M's, right?
 
2013-05-08 12:44:59 PM

umad: Exactly. Like another poster said, a very small minority women enjoy simulated rape, so the police should stop responding to reported rapes because it is probably just one of them. A small number of other people enjoy playing "fight club" so they should also stop responding to reported assaults as well. Contacting the parties involved to ensure that they are all consenting would take waaaay too much work, so it is best to assume that they are in the minority who do consent to such things.


And I understand that there are whole blocks in Detroit where most of the residents are "gunshot to the head" aficionados.  I've stopped questioning people's tastes and fetishes.  Live and let... well, not always *live*, in the strictest sense.
 
2013-05-08 12:48:47 PM
SO to get away with basically anything, you just have to not open the door when the police knock?
 
2013-05-08 12:49:34 PM

Anastacya: Please, Cleveland PD ignored a serial killer for years. There were abuse reports made by "crackheads" and "hookers" so they were not followed-up, and a madman was able to kill several women and keep their bodies in his home. The caveat? The complaints about rancid meat were traced to the meat factory down the street, so the health department cited them and they paid to have all new drainage systems installed. When the smells didn't stop, they kept fining the meat plant... all the while the bodies of seven women were decomposing in a house... including a few in the back yard, and because the people who tried to report it were "nobodies" the CPD didn't even inspect the house when the guy claimed it was a lover's quarrel.

Cleveland Police sucks. So glad that I escaped.


Did Charles Ramsey bust the door open for you?
 
2013-05-08 12:51:34 PM

Lollipop165: I think that people who engage in kinky practices such as pretend rape and D+S probably understand why perhaps a cop might stop by to make sure everything is okay. In fact, I'd be happy and feel much safer and have more faith in the system if that had indeed happened. Nothing wrong with being kinky, so long as all parties involved are okay with it. If someone calls and says they see a woman (or man) chained in a basement - yeah it COULD just be kinky sex but it also could be something much worse.


*raises hand*

I would much rather have to explain to the cops why I'm crawling around naked on a dog leash than risk having a kidnap/rape/abuse victim go undiscovered because the cops chose to ignore the call, for exactly the same reason I didn't mind having to explain to the cops a couple of times that no, my boyfriend wasn't abusing me, we were just having a very loud argument.  It's certainly true that the police can't investigate *every* call about someone getting freaky in the backyard, but most BDSM folks have the sense to keep scenes out of public view in the first place.

/And those who don't might do well to get a polite reminder about it. I know a guy who ended up serving six months of community service because he went out in the woods, undressed himself, put on handcuffs and leg cuffs, and went running around on the trails. He stumbled across a couple of hikers who called the police because they thought he was an escaped convict, and was charged with public indecency.
//So remember, kids, if you're going to run around naked and handcuffed in the woods, STAY OFF THE TRAILS.
 
2013-05-08 12:51:47 PM

Magorn: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

No you didn't and that's what I'm pointing out.    We Liberals are big believers in "small government" you see, and so don;t believe that, as long as no one is being harmed, the government has a right to regulate private behavior,    Thus we are all in favor of anyone getting their swerve on in any fashion they like, so long as A) everyone involved is an adult B) everyone freely consents to the activity at hand.  Now which of those two conditions are not present in this scenario?  Equating these guys with the S&M community is about as offensive as the idiots that link homosexuality and pedophilia.


As a Bible believe Christian I agree with you 100%.   Evil people come from every walk of life.

I believe in cases such as this that the death penalty should be on the table.
 
2013-05-08 12:52:07 PM

cchris_39: Diverting resources from traffic enforcement to actually fight crime?


look, if officers investigated every little phone call, they'd have to write more reports, and that would take away from fighting against traffic offenses.

what are you, some kind of anarchist?
 
2013-05-08 12:53:31 PM

SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.


If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.
 
2013-05-08 12:54:04 PM
I bet if someone told the police there was weed in that house, the SWAT team would have surrounded the place immediately.
 
2013-05-08 12:54:21 PM

Waldo Pepper: Magorn: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

No you didn't and that's what I'm pointing out.    We Liberals are big believers in "small government" you see, and so don;t believe that, as long as no one is being harmed, the government has a right to regulate private behavior,    Thus we are all in favor of anyone getting their swerve on in any fashion they like, so long as A) everyone involved is an adult B) everyone freely consents to the activity at hand.  Now which of those two conditions are not present in this scenario?  Equating these guys with the S&M community is about as offensive as the idiots that link homosexuality and pedophilia.

As a Bible believe Christian I agree with you 100%.   Evil people come from every walk of life.

I believe in cases such as this that the death penalty should be on the table.


Death penalty?  No.  Life in gen-pop.  Let's see what happens.
 
2013-05-08 12:55:41 PM

Magorn: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

No you didn't and that's what I'm pointing out.    We Liberals are big believers in "small government" you see, and so don;t believe that, as long as no one is being harmed, the government has a right to regulate private behavior,    Thus we are all in favor of anyone getting their swerve on in any fashion they like, so long as A) everyone involved is an adult B) everyone freely consents to the activity at hand.  Now which of those two conditions are not present in this scenario?  Equating these guys with the S&M community is about as offensive as the idiots that link homosexuality and pedophilia.


Explain to me how sodomy is any less offensive than rape.
 
2013-05-08 12:56:10 PM
Sounds like a typical PD in Ohio.

But eh, this is what small government looks like.
 
2013-05-08 12:57:17 PM

PunGent: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.


Any decade prior to the 60s.
 
2013-05-08 12:57:34 PM

SithLord: Explain to me how sodomy is any less offensive than rape.


Uhhhh
 
2013-05-08 12:58:02 PM

Zarquon's Flat Tire: I don't even want to imagine the beating you'd catch for accidently coming on a cop.


Yeah, they hate that.
 
2013-05-08 12:58:13 PM

SithLord: PunGent: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.

Any decade prior to the 60s.


Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary.
 
2013-05-08 12:58:34 PM

HotWingConspiracy: SithLord: Explain to me how sodomy is any less offensive than rape.

Uhhhh


Someone needs a UFIA...  Sorta combines both, gives some food for thought...
 
2013-05-08 12:59:17 PM
both libtards and conservatards believe in small government for what they agree with, and big government for what they disagree with.

the argument often begins with "X is less regulated than Y, and that is wrong."

X or Y could be abortion, gun control, free speech, religious practices, etc.
 
2013-05-08 01:02:04 PM
Clearly Cleveland does not have anough police to allow them to investigate every 'naked on dog collared women' in back yard of a completely covered-up creepy house with creepy, fired bus driver and creppy brothers in it. They are busy sending 100+ officers to shoot 137 times at 2 people (granted they were BAD prople) who refused to stop their car and give-up to police
 
2013-05-08 01:05:13 PM

Amidala: Anastacya: Please, Cleveland PD ignored a serial killer for years. There were abuse reports made by "crackheads" and "hookers" so they were not followed-up, and a madman was able to kill several women and keep their bodies in his home. The caveat? The complaints about rancid meat were traced to the meat factory down the street, so the health department cited them and they paid to have all new drainage systems installed. When the smells didn't stop, they kept fining the meat plant... all the while the bodies of seven women were decomposing in a house... including a few in the back yard, and because the people who tried to report it were "nobodies" the CPD didn't even inspect the house when the guy claimed it was a lover's quarrel.

Cleveland Police sucks. So glad that I escaped.

Did Charles Ramsey bust the door open for you?


No, but my ex-husband hit me so hard in the face that he fractured my skull. I left him by packing up my car with what I could carry, taking my dog, and fled while he was at work. I had help. It wasn't Charles Ramsey, but it was a man who was equally heroic.
 
2013-05-08 01:05:13 PM

PunGent: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.


1940's
 
2013-05-08 01:11:20 PM

Waldo Pepper: 1940's


He said if you're not trolling, dude.
 
2013-05-08 01:11:46 PM

cman: Speaker2Animals: cman: After everything that I have read on the case I am very angry

Thank god we have a federal law making it illegal to kill a fetus without the mothers permission. Constitution that allows the news media to report anything it wants without any concern over whether it's true.

While the constitution does protect the press, it matters not in this case, because my statement is backed up by fact


Umm, I wasn't referring to that, Sparky -- I was referring to the "everything I've read on the case" and you apparently believing it.
 
2013-05-08 01:12:00 PM

SithLord: Death penalty?  No.  Life in gen-pop.  Let's see what happens.



Same difference.
 
2013-05-08 01:18:45 PM

Deucednuisance: Waldo Pepper: 1940's

He said if you're not trolling, dude.


heh... in the 1940's, Chinamen were excluded from citizenship & could not legally own property, blacks were also second class citizens, japs and others were rounded up into prison
camps, but greatest generation (tm)!!!!11!1!!!
 
2013-05-08 01:21:04 PM

EdNortonsTwin: I hope the pukes who took these girls get 23.5 hours of solitary a day for the remainder of their miserable lives.

Restraining them to a chair with the same ropes and chains in the same house they held these girls in and letting the fathers of said girls go at them with immunity is far more fitting.

yea I know, rule of law and such.


Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life. I'm no sadist, even in revenge, but I will take out the trash.
 
2013-05-08 01:24:58 PM

dfenstrate: Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life.


Are you a sociopath?
 
2013-05-08 01:29:28 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.


it is if it is against her will.  Like, if it was part of her imprisonment.  And between this and the guy that had 11 women's bodies buried in his backyard, I think it is fair to say Cleveland police have failed to serve and protect their community.
 
2013-05-08 01:29:32 PM
naked women on leashes crawling on all fours
www.screeninsults.com

/1 ticket, please
 
2013-05-08 01:32:31 PM

HotWingConspiracy: dfenstrate: Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life.

Are you a sociopath?


The guy I was responding to was advocating punitive torture. Did you get 'up in his grill'?
 
2013-05-08 01:34:16 PM

Magorn: Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.

however leading a NAKED one around on a leash outside, at the very least violates public deceny laws which is enough to check it ou


Not if it's in the backyard.

I cast spells naked in the backyard as part of my spiritual path. I would really rather not have to interrupt my ritual every single time because some fricken busybody thinks I'm doing something demonic.

/key phrase is "expectation of privacy"
 
2013-05-08 01:35:29 PM
I think the 3 victims will need police protection........from the hoard of lawyers!

/ now know why girls have that 6th sense called the creepy sense
 
2013-05-08 01:36:11 PM

HotWingConspiracy: dfenstrate: Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life.

Are you a sociopath?


He probably isn't.  Many of us are capable of doing what is necessary without the emotional baggage that often accompanies such an act.  Case in point, we regularly euthanize rodents at the ends of our studies.  This affects some people in the lab more than others, but I wouldn't call any of us sociopaths.  If you'd like to make the argument that this is another human being? Well, I'm of the opinion that we're all animals responding to environmental stimuli (i.e., learning) and for some, this learning is maladaptive. You don't imprison a dangerous animal, you euthanize it.
 
2013-05-08 01:36:26 PM

dfenstrate: HotWingConspiracy: dfenstrate: Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life.

Are you a sociopath?

The guy I was responding to was advocating punitive torture. Did you get 'up in his grill'?


You didn't answer the question.
 
2013-05-08 01:36:30 PM
Magorn:

No you didn't and that's what I'm pointing out.    We Liberals are big believers in "small government" you see, and so don;t believe that, as long as no one is being harmed, the government has a right to regulate private behavior,    Thus we are all in favor of anyone getting their swerve on in any fashion they like, so long as A) everyone involved is an adult B) everyone freely consents to the activity at hand.  Now which of those two conditions are not present in this scenario?  Equating these guys with the S&M community is about as offensive as the idiots that link homosexuality and pedophilia.

Liberals are big believers in sexual license. That's the only 'small government' aspect of the liberal's agenda.
"F*ck anything, anyway you like, and never have to deal with the consequences. Anything else, better have the right goddamn forms filled out and the proper fees paid, and if you can't manage those things, well, f*ck off then."
 
2013-05-08 01:38:52 PM

Abuse Liability: HotWingConspiracy: dfenstrate: Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life.

Are you a sociopath?

He probably isn't.  Many of us are capable of doing what is necessary without the emotional baggage that often accompanies such an act.  Case in point, we regularly euthanize rodents at the ends of our studies.  This affects some people in the lab more than others, but I wouldn't call any of us sociopaths.  If you'd like to make the argument that this is another human being? Well, I'm of the opinion that we're all animals responding to environmental stimuli (i.e., learning) and for some, this learning is maladaptive. You don't imprison a dangerous animal, you euthanize it.


Well you're either a sociopath or just another shiat talking internet bad ass.

You'd either puss out or spend the rest of your life attempting to drink away the scene if you executed bound humans.
 
2013-05-08 01:40:32 PM

HotWingConspiracy: You didn't answer the question


Good thing I don't need to justify myself to you. But you can refer to Abuse Liability's response.

And maybe you can go fetch these nice gentlemen a tea, and have a chat with them about why they felt the need to imprison and degrade three people for over a decade. Maybe you'll come to see their side of things, and a mutual understanding that enhances everyone's lives can be reached.

I'm starting to think that with your psychological skills, you're just the person to handle this for the nation.
 
2013-05-08 01:42:12 PM

dfenstrate: HotWingConspiracy: You didn't answer the question

Good thing I don't need to justify myself to you. But you can refer to Abuse Liability's response.

And maybe you can go fetch these nice gentlemen a tea, and have a chat with them about why they felt the need to imprison and degrade three people for over a decade. Maybe you'll come to see their side of things, and a mutual understanding that enhances everyone's lives can be reached.

I'm starting to think that with your psychological skills, you're just the person to handle this for the nation.


Hey look another shiat talking internet bad ass.
 
2013-05-08 01:45:22 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Abuse Liability: HotWingConspiracy: dfenstrate: Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life.

Are you a sociopath?

He probably isn't.  Many of us are capable of doing what is necessary without the emotional baggage that often accompanies such an act.  Case in point, we regularly euthanize rodents at the ends of our studies.  This affects some people in the lab more than others, but I wouldn't call any of us sociopaths.  If you'd like to make the argument that this is another human being? Well, I'm of the opinion that we're all animals responding to environmental stimuli (i.e., learning) and for some, this learning is maladaptive. You don't imprison a dangerous animal, you euthanize it.

Well you're either a sociopath or just another shiat talking internet bad ass.

You'd either puss out or spend the rest of your life attempting to drink away the scene if you executed bound humans.


Those are the only two options?  Very open-minded.   I'm not advocating killing this man as a deterrent (numerous statistical studies have shown how lackluster this method is for crime prevention) or even as vengeance.    However,recidivism rates for criminals that are put to death are zero.  Also note that I did not volunteer for this job, as I probably would be too squeemish with years of cultural indoctrination about the sanctity of life (even human pieces of garbage life).  But hey, if the other poster can do it, kudos to him.
 
2013-05-08 01:47:32 PM
I'd hardly consider myself a badass. We only euthanize out of necessity and because we think the data generated by serum and blood levels may be useful to science in general.  I don't get some grim satisfaction from using the guillotine.  At least I don't think I got a boner the last time...
 
2013-05-08 01:50:45 PM

Abuse Liability: However,recidivism rates for criminals that are put to death are zero.


What are the recidivism stats for people that have imprisoned others for 10 years?
 
2013-05-08 01:50:48 PM
serum and *brain levels (e.g., neurotransmitters, horomones, whatever else may be of interest in your study).  serum and blood aren't exactly the same thing but close enough for that statement to be redundant.
 
2013-05-08 01:51:59 PM

legion_of_doo: Deucednuisance: Waldo Pepper: 1940's

He said if you're not trolling, dude.

heh... in the 1940's, Chinamen were excluded from citizenship & could not legally own property, blacks were also second class citizens, japs and others were rounded up into prison
camps, but greatest generation (tm)!!!!11!1!!!


All of those are morally wrong but not necessarily corrupt. Also in the 40's restrictions were lifted allowing Chinese to immigrate.
 
2013-05-08 01:54:21 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Abuse Liability: However,recidivism rates for criminals that are put to death are zero.

What are the recidivism stats for people that have imprisoned others for 10 years?


I assume you mean recidivism rates for sexual offenders? there's a subsection devoted to it in the wikipedia entry with credible sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender
 
2013-05-08 01:56:27 PM

Abuse Liability: I assume you mean recidivism rates for sexual offenders?


No, I would have said that if that was the case.
 
2013-05-08 01:56:37 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: naked women on leashes crawling on all fours
[www.screeninsults.com image 590x324]

/1 ticket, please


"What's wrong with sexy?"
 
2013-05-08 02:04:48 PM

Peki: Magorn: Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.

however leading a NAKED one around on a leash outside, at the very least violates public deceny laws which is enough to check it ou

Not if it's in the backyard.

I cast spells naked in the backyard as part of my spiritual path. I would really rather not have to interrupt my ritual every single time because some fricken busybody thinks I'm doing something demonic.

/key phrase is "expectation of privacy"


I got bad news for you and your "skyclad" religious observances, hon,  You can get busted for "indecent exposure"  even when you are in the privacy of your own home and the person you "exposed" yourself to  was trespassing across your property.  Just ask this  guy:

and yes "reasonable expectation of privacy is in fact the phrase that pays, but ti doesn't work the way you think it idoes.  Courts have basically said that anytime you are within the line of sight of another person, you have no expectation of privacy, even if that party (say the police) have to use binoculars or a telescope to observe you).  I help run an event that includes a clothing optional ethos, and I'm a lawyer so I have very carefully educated myself on these laws.  (the event protects itself by having a screen of vegetation all around the event, having a "no nudity beyond the gate" policy and renting land from an owner who has an "understanding" with the local law enforcement)
 
2013-05-08 02:06:36 PM
What are the recidivism stats for people that have imprisoned others for 10 years?

HotWingConspiracy: Abuse Liability: I assume you mean recidivism rates for sexual offenders?

No, I would have said that if that was the case.


Your argument leaves out so many things (most importantly motive).  For one, I'm sure recidivism rates are 100 percent for Prison wardens.  I'm pretty sure after imprisoning several thousand inmates for several years, they are likely to do so once again.  I'm not exactly sure of your angle here but if it's confusion, consider yourself successful.
 
2013-05-08 02:10:53 PM

Abuse Liability: I'd hardly consider myself a badass. We only euthanize out of necessity and because we think the data generated by serum and blood levels may be useful to science in general.  I don't get some grim satisfaction from using the guillotine.  At least I don't think I got a boner the last time...


You use a guillotine?
 
2013-05-08 02:13:02 PM
Ramsey not the first to help?... ¿Que?
 
2013-05-08 02:15:37 PM

Abuse Liability: For one, I'm sure recidivism rates are 100 percent for Prison wardens.


Do you understand the word recidivism in the context you're using it?
 
2013-05-08 02:16:17 PM

Mazzic518: Abuse Liability: I'd hardly consider myself a badass. We only euthanize out of necessity and because we think the data generated by serum and blood levels may be useful to science in general.  I don't get some grim satisfaction from using the guillotine.  At least I don't think I got a boner the last time...

You use a guillotine?


For rodents yes.  Most often they are anesthetized using isoflurane first as we are humane and respect the animals contribution (i'll even throw in an 'unwilling' for all those PETA fans out there) to science.
 
2013-05-08 02:18:30 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Abuse Liability: For one, I'm sure recidivism rates are 100 percent for Prison wardens.

Do you understand the word recidivism in the context you're using it?


yes, yes I do.  I was merely poking fun at your flimsy argument, if it can even be called that.
 
2013-05-08 02:20:31 PM

legion_of_doo: Deucednuisance: Waldo Pepper: 1940's

He said if you're not trolling, dude.

heh... in the 1940's, Chinamen were excluded from citizenship & could not legally own property, blacks were also second class citizens, japs and others were rounded up into prison
camps, but greatest generation (tm)!!!!11!1!!!


There was no gays "officially" nor was anyone besides jazz musicians on "the pot" girls were girls and men were men.

ya Im grasping at straws.

define morally corrupt. What to one person is corruption to another is proper
 
2013-05-08 02:27:35 PM

Abuse Liability: Mazzic518: Abuse Liability: I'd hardly consider myself a badass. We only euthanize out of necessity and because we think the data generated by serum and blood levels may be useful to science in general.  I don't get some grim satisfaction from using the guillotine.  At least I don't think I got a boner the last time...

You use a guillotine?

For rodents yes.  Most often they are anesthetized using isoflurane first as we are humane and respect the animals contribution (i'll even throw in an 'unwilling' for all those PETA fans out there) to science.


Wow I just googled them and they are real... I cut up dead animals all day long but don't think I could lop redents' heads off lol. Glad someone else has that job :)
 
2013-05-08 02:32:48 PM
The same thing happened to one of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims, only he got taken back, killed, and eaten.
 
2013-05-08 02:39:47 PM
It's kindof sick to think how many times these women could have been freed if the neighbors would have taken literally 2 minutes to call the police on, for instance, seeing a freakin little girl trying to escape the attic.
 
2013-05-08 02:47:14 PM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros: I enjoy S&M parties. That's when I mix my Skittles and M&M's, right?


As long as you keep your Skittles indoors, where no Neighborhood Watch can see them, you should be alright.
 
2013-05-08 02:48:30 PM

SithLord: Explain to me how sodomy is any less offensive than rape.


And here is where the Sithy torpedoes his own argument.
 
2013-05-08 02:52:23 PM

HotWingConspiracy: SithLord: Explain to me how sodomy is any less offensive than rape.

Uhhhh


You can't reason with derp like that.  It's simply not possible.  If he's sincere, he's too far gone to to be reached, and if he's trolling, you wouldn't want to waste your time feeding him.

I'm guessing from the handle "SithLord" he's a troll, but it really doesn't matter.  Arguing about whether someone's a troll is just another waste of time.
 
2013-05-08 02:54:52 PM

SelenaDori: They were just taking the dogs out to release the bowels, they didnt want to have to clean up after them in the basement.
Housebroken, what good girls...


in case nobody else said it yet:

fark YOU
 
2013-05-08 03:07:24 PM
I saw the first interview with the young lady (done in her backyard) and she said that they didn't call the police because they found it 'funny'.  Her story has become quite different with each retelling.
 
2013-05-08 03:07:35 PM

SithLord: PunGent: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.

Any decade prior to the 60s.


Really?

You think Jim Crow laws were moral?

You're either singularly uninformed about U.S. history, or a bigot, or a troll.

Not sure I care which, frankly.

/ignore
 
2013-05-08 03:08:44 PM

HotWingConspiracy: SithLord: PunGent: SithLord: Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.

Any decade prior to the 60s.

Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary.



"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - misattributed to Socrates or Plato but actually from the play The Clouds, 423 BC

There's a book  The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap by  Stephanie Coontz that addresses this issue in detail (as regards the United States, at least), but it really boils down to a fundamental difference between Conservatives and Progressives, indeed the very difference that gives these two groups their names.  On the most basic level, Conservatives see society as degenerating from a "golden age" when everything was better, while Progressives see society as advancing from a dark past into a more enlightened future.  Hence the names: Conservatives want to Conserve as much as was good in the past as possible, slow down, halt, or ideally reverse the ongoing decay (as they see it), while Progressives want to speed up Progress and advance into the better future (as they see it) quickly.

So thinking that the American society was far better in the 1950s than it is today is an essential part of an American Conservative's worldview, no matter how historically inaccurate or revisionist that fantasy is.

To put it simply, trying to convince them that Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary is like trying to convince a devout Christian that Jesus didn't rise from the dead.
 
2013-05-08 03:12:04 PM

legion_of_doo: both libtards and conservatards believe in small government for what they agree with, and big government for what they disagree with.

the argument often begins with "X is less regulated than Y, and that is wrong."

X or Y could be abortion, gun control, free speech, religious practices, etc.


Yes, but the big difference between the two groups is that Conservatives try to CLAIM they're the party of small government.  You very rarely find a Liberal or Democrat in the USA asserting that smaller government is what they're fighting for, and that the other side is bad because they want Big Government.

So what you say is true, but if you are trying to use it as a BSABSVR argument, it fails.
 
2013-05-08 03:16:09 PM

Anastacya: Amidala: Did Charles Ramsey bust the door open for you?

No, but my ex-husband hit me so hard in the face that he fractured my skull. I left him by packing up my car with what I could carry, taking my dog, and fled while he was at work. I had help. It wasn't Charles Ramsey, but it was a man who was equally heroic.



Thank you for sharing that.

(And I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically.)
 
2013-05-08 03:18:57 PM

HotWingConspiracy: dfenstrate: Given that opportunity, I would simply execute them and move on with my life.

Are you a sociopath?


Well, his name IS a spelling variation of "defenestrate" so what do you expect?
 
2013-05-08 03:31:40 PM

PunGent: Waldo Pepper: PunGent: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.

1940's

Same response to you: you a fan of Jim Crow laws?

Won't ignore you yet; unlike the last guy, you weren't already color-coded Derptard Red.


My  answer doesn't automatically makes me a fan of the horrible actions of the 1940's.
 
2013-05-08 03:34:47 PM
I know I'm late to the party but I'm just gonna leave this right here.

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-05-08 03:41:48 PM

ciberido: legion_of_doo: both libtards and conservatards believe in small government for what they agree with, and big government for what they disagree with.

the argument often begins with "X is less regulated than Y, and that is wrong."

X or Y could be abortion, gun control, free speech, religious practices, etc.

Yes, but the big difference between the two groups is that Conservatives try to CLAIM they're the party of small government.  You very rarely find a Liberal or Democrat in the USA asserting that smaller government is what they're fighting for, and that the other side is bad because they want Big Government.

So what you say is true, but if you are trying to use it as a BSABSVR argument, it fails.


well, both sides claim to love "freedom"... but, collectively, each side only supports the freedoms that mesh with their agendas.

you cannot claim that any mere mortal or their org is less flawed than another unless you identify with some wing nut group.
 
2013-05-08 03:48:35 PM

ciberido: Anastacya: Amidala: Did Charles Ramsey bust the door open for you?

No, but my ex-husband hit me so hard in the face that he fractured my skull. I left him by packing up my car with what I could carry, taking my dog, and fled while he was at work. I had help. It wasn't Charles Ramsey, but it was a man who was equally heroic.


Thank you for sharing that.

(And I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically.)


Thank you.
 
2013-05-08 03:56:20 PM
Was it rape/rape or just rape? Has Whoopie weighed in on this yet?
 
2013-05-08 03:56:44 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.


Thank GOD you weren't there THAT day. Let's just assume it is until we learn that it isn't.
 
2013-05-08 04:11:04 PM
i1182.photobucket.com

It's contagious. :-(
 
2013-05-08 04:11:43 PM
I'm not believing the story that someone saw them walking the girls around with a dog leach and called 911. I think that is somebody making up a story to get some attention. The guy that found them said that there wasn't anything abnormal about the guys that kidnapped them. He said that he would regularly see them in their backyard playing with their dogs and messing with their bikes. I seriously doubt that they would have their victims out in a yard that was that visible by their neighbors.
 
2013-05-08 04:35:04 PM

ciberido: HotWingConspiracy: SithLord: PunGent: SithLord: Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.

Any decade prior to the 60s.

Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary.


"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - misattributed to Socrates or Plato but actually from the play The Clouds, 423 BC

There's a book  The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap by  Stephanie Coontz that addresses this issue in detail (as regards the United States, at least), but it really boils down to a fundamental difference between Conservatives and Progressives, indeed the very difference that gives these two groups their names.  On the most basic level, Conservatives see society as degenerating from a "golden age" when everything was better, while Progressives see society as advancing from a dark past into a more enlightened future.  Hence the names: Conservatives want to Conserve as much as was good in the past as possible, slow down, halt, or ideally reverse the ongoing decay (as they see it), while Progressives want to speed up Progress and advance into the better future (as they see it) quickly.

So thinking that the American society was far better in the 1950s than it is today is an essential part of an American Conservative's worldview, no matter how historically inaccurate or revisionist that fantasy is.

To put it simply, trying to convince them that Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary is like trying to con ...


Absolutely true.  My parents are extremist christian conservatives and they would call the woman who wrote "The Way We Never Were" a liberal athiest history revisionist.  They believe with all that they are that the 1950's was perfect and Jesus is coming back to get them before they die.  They believe that the liberals are rewriting history.  My Mother constantly tells me how violent Martin Luther King Jr. was and how he started race riots wherever he went.  My Grandmother talks about how sad her black "servants" were to be set free and told they could no longer work for her for free.  My parents were very upset when I decided to go to college.  They had hoped I would "stay home and have babies".  Because that's what good christian conservative women do.  It's their place.
 
2013-05-08 04:35:27 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: The_Gallant_Gallstone: I would feel like I might need new drapes.

I wiped my dick on the old ones, so...yeah.


Cthulhu is still pissed about that, too...
 
2013-05-08 05:30:25 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Hey look another shiat talking internet bad ass.


I'm an internet tough guy, you're a dipsh*t armchair psychologist, we're all just a bunch of yapping, postulating fools wasting time on the internet.

Do you imagine if you're clever enough, with sufficiently witty retorts, you'll get crowned 'King of Internet Commentators' ?
 
If you wanted to call me an ITG you could have just done it out of the gate instead of trying to be cute. Now you're a dipsh*t armchair psychologist with an inferiority complex.
\I play DSAP too.
 
2013-05-08 05:31:18 PM

ongbok: I'm not believing the story that someone saw them walking the girls around with a dog leach and called 911. I think that is somebody making up a story to get some attention. The guy that found them said that there wasn't anything abnormal about the guys that kidnapped them. He said that he would regularly see them in their backyard playing with their dogs and messing with their bikes. I seriously doubt that they would have their victims out in a yard that was that visible by their neighbors.


I saw those people on TV, dumb as dirt and unable to keep their story straight. The conference now is stating that they'd only left the house twice in ten years to the best of the girls knowledge.

They are full of shiat.

Also, the brothers, as skeevy as they look were not charged and and according to the girls were never involved.

Maybe Stockholm, but it looks like there is only one monster in the Castro family at the moment.
 
2013-05-08 06:10:46 PM

EvilMonkeyBoy: ongbok: I'm not believing the story that someone saw them walking the girls around with a dog leach and called 911. I think that is somebody making up a story to get some attention. The guy that found them said that there wasn't anything abnormal about the guys that kidnapped them. He said that he would regularly see them in their backyard playing with their dogs and messing with their bikes. I seriously doubt that they would have their victims out in a yard that was that visible by their neighbors.

I saw those people on TV, dumb as dirt and unable to keep their story straight. The conference now is stating that they'd only left the house twice in ten years to the best of the girls knowledge.

They are full of shiat.

Also, the brothers, as skeevy as they look were not charged and and according to the girls were never involved.

Maybe Stockholm, but it looks like there is only one monster in the Castro family at the moment.


mentalfloss.com
 
2013-05-08 06:19:34 PM

EvilMonkeyBoy: Also, the brothers, as skeevy as they look were not charged and and according to the girls were never involved.

Maybe Stockholm, but it looks like there is only one monster in the Castro family at the moment.


Saw that. Looks like the two brothers were arrested, because they were with Ariel Castro when he was arrested. That has to make the Castro family feel a little better that they have one evil douche in the family, and not three.
 
2013-05-08 06:22:39 PM

sisterinarms: ciberido: HotWingConspiracy: SithLord: PunGent: SithLord: Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.

Any decade prior to the 60s.

Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary.


"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - misattributed to Socrates or Plato but actually from the play The Clouds, 423 BC

There's a book  The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap by  Stephanie Coontz that addresses this issue in detail (as regards the United States, at least), but it really boils down to a fundamental difference between Conservatives and Progressives, indeed the very difference that gives these two groups their names.  On the most basic level, Conservatives see society as degenerating from a "golden age" when everything was better, while Progressives see society as advancing from a dark past into a more enlightened future.  Hence the names: Conservatives want to Conserve as much as was good in the past as possible, slow down, halt, or ideally reverse the ongoing decay (as they see it), while Progressives want to speed up Progress and advance into the better future (as they see it) quickly.

So thinking that the American society was far better in the 1950s than it is today is an essential part of an American Conservative's worldview, no matter how historically inaccurate or revisionist that fantasy is.

To put it simply, trying to convince them that Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary is like tryi ...


I think for the average children the 50's-70's were pretty good times to be growing up. One could go outside and play for hours and if something happened there was always many houses to run for help and someone's mom was usually home. Fast food, sodas and candy were all considered special treats and you enjoyed them.  If you didn't have the coin for a slurpee you only had to find some bottles and return them for money. 

I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.
 
2013-05-08 06:33:24 PM

legion_of_doo: ciberido: Yes, but the big difference between the two groups is that Conservatives try to CLAIM they're the party of small government.  You very rarely find a Liberal or Democrat in the USA asserting that smaller government is what they're fighting for, and that the other side is bad because they want Big Government.

So what you say is true, but if you are trying to use it as a BSABSVR argument, it fails.

well, both sides claim to love "freedom"... but, collectively, each side only supports the freedoms that mesh with their agendas.

you cannot claim that any mere mortal or their org is less flawed than another unless you identify with some wing nut group.



I can certainly claim that Democrats are more honest about what their goals are than Republicans, because, you know, I just explained in my last post exactly how Democrats are more honest about "Big Government" than Republicans.  So if you reduce "more moral" to "more honest about their intentions," then yes, Democrats absolutely are more moral, and that's as objective a statement about which of two groups are more moral as anyone could make.

I do accept, however, that to most people, which of two groups is more moral is a much more complex question than "which of two groups is most honest about their intentions."

As for both sides claiming to love freedom, yes, that's true.  But that, in turn, is because freedom isn't as simple or one-dimensional as so many people like to believe.  The conflict arises when one group loves freedoms A, C, D, and F and a second group loves freedoms B, C, and E.  You can't have absolute freedom of A, and absolute freedom of B, and absolute freedom of C, etc., so a civil society has to balance them.  But of course you have different groups arguing about which freedoms are most important, while at the same time claiming that the other group "doesn't love freedom."
 
2013-05-08 06:40:53 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: colinspooky: hindsight

Exactly.  Leading a woman around on a leash, while it might not be your thing, is not illegal.


But it's been reported that it was a child who witnessed it. And even if it wasn't a child surely some sort of public nudity or lewd behavior in public laws would have applied. I'd think if a child was subjected to something as disturbing as a nude woman on a leash being walked like a dog, the police would not just walk away without talking to someone and documenting the incident, especially in an area where so many young girls were missing.
 
2013-05-08 06:45:21 PM

Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.


Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.
 
2013-05-08 06:51:28 PM
 
2013-05-08 07:03:04 PM

ciberido: Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.

Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.


I saw what you wrote and I disagree with it in some areas. I feel we had a brief period in time where the average child had what one could consider the perfect childhood.
 
2013-05-08 07:39:12 PM
yet_another_wumpus: And in other cop-hate threads, we are told in no uncertain terms the folly of allowing cops to enter our homes without a warrant.  I am wondering what type of warrant a single siting of a naked woman outside would justify and why cops would go see a judge over that.

It seems as simple as knocking on the door and asking what's up. If the guy says it's fine, make sure *she* comes to the door and says it's fine, too, and that the situation seems OK.

No warrant, no search. Talking to people and taking statements seems like the sort of thing a police officer should expect to be asked to do quite a bit over the course of a shift.
 
2013-05-08 07:41:31 PM

Waldo Pepper: ciberido: Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.

Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.

I saw what you wrote and I disagree with it in some areas. I feel we had a brief period in time where the average white middle/upper-class child had what one could consider the perfect childhood.


FTFY
 
2013-05-08 07:43:47 PM
Benevolent Misanthrope:
Hindsight, 20/20, that sort of thing  We know today it was bad.  2 weeks ago, we would have been vilifying the cops for going after people doing something totally legal, especially if the victim had said it was consensual.

ESPECIALLY? So if the victim hasn't said it's consensual, "Oh, I'm sure they're just having fun"?
 
2013-05-08 07:58:12 PM
I see the tards are still acting like this a politics thread. Why don't you go shove your favorite political animal mascot up your ass, and leave the adults to talk about this case. There's a whole tab where you can display your stupidity like a peacock.
 
2013-05-08 08:00:19 PM

sisterinarms: ciberido: HotWingConspiracy: SithLord: PunGent: SithLord: Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

If you're not trolling, kindly pick a decade in this nation's history when you think we were less 'morally corrupt'.

Any decade prior to the 60s.

Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary.


"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - misattributed to Socrates or Plato but actually from the play The Clouds, 423 BC

There's a book  The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap by  Stephanie Coontz that addresses this issue in detail (as regards the United States, at least), but it really boils down to a fundamental difference between Conservatives and Progressives, indeed the very difference that gives these two groups their names.  On the most basic level, Conservatives see society as degenerating from a "golden age" when everything was better, while Progressives see society as advancing from a dark past into a more enlightened future.  Hence the names: Conservatives want to Conserve as much as was good in the past as possible, slow down, halt, or ideally reverse the ongoing decay (as they see it), while Progressives want to speed up Progress and advance into the better future (as they see it) quickly.

So thinking that the American society was far better in the 1950s than it is today is an essential part of an American Conservative's worldview, no matter how historically inaccurate or revisionist that fantasy is.

To put it simply, trying to convince them that Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary is like tryi ...


Your grandmother is upset that her servants were set free?  Is your grandmother 170 years old?

Why do people lie so much on this website?
 
2013-05-08 08:02:43 PM

ciberido: Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.

Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.


But there are statistics, and we can compare crime rates or other things in the 1950s with now.

B-b-b-b-ut Jim Crow!  Not every place in the country was Mississippi.
 
2013-05-08 08:07:16 PM
Michelle Knight is angry at her family. Sounds like they could watch TV at times, and Berry, and Gina saw the vigils. There were no vigils for Knight, but the police thought she was a run away, as she was an adult at the time with family issues. Wonder if she thought no one cared, or her mother did cause so many problems.
 
2013-05-08 08:08:14 PM

Cytokine Storm: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.

Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.

I saw what you wrote and I disagree with it in some areas. I feel we had a brief period in time where the average white middle/upper-class child had what one could consider the perfect childhood.

FTFY


again you are wrong
 
2013-05-09 01:48:44 AM

Cytokine Storm: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.

Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.

I saw what you wrote and I disagree with it in some areas. I feel we had a brief period in time where the average white middle/upper-class child had what one could consider the perfect childhood.



No offense, but what statistics show is more important that what you feel.  Americans were not measurably safer or happier in the 1940s or 1950s than they are now.
 
2013-05-09 02:19:04 AM

Magorn: SithLord: Magorn: SithLord: Who cares.  It's old news now.  What these men did shouldn't be a crime.  They were merely acting out their fantasies in the privacy of their own home.  They should be praised for coming out as doms.  What they did was not morally corrupt.  They should be allowed to marry their subs.  Praise the Cleveland police for not prying in the lives of private citizens and letting them carry on their business.

Kids should fear guns, not innocent kidnappers who just want to get their jollies.  What is wrong with the close-minded tea-tards?

hey look another "Conservative" who fails to understand the phrase "between CONSENTING adults"   HMM, maybe THAT's why Republicans are always going on about rape, because they just can;t wrap thier head around the concept?

Another liberal who doesn't understand I used your side's talking points when stating how morally corrupt this country has become.

No you didn't and that's what I'm pointing out.     We Liberals are big believers in "small government" you see, and so don;t believe that, as long as no one is being harmed, the government has a right to regulate private behavior,    Thus we are all in favor of anyone getting their swerve on in any fashion they like, so long as A) everyone involved is an adult B) everyone freely consents to the activity at hand.  Now which of those two conditions are not present in this scenario?  Equating these guys with the S&M community is about as offensive as the idiots that link homosexuality and pedophilia.


oh, how I LOL'd
 
2013-05-09 08:15:00 AM

ciberido: Cytokine Storm: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.

Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.

I saw what you wrote and I disagree with it in some areas. I feel we had a brief period in time where the average white middle/upper-class child had what one could consider the perfect childhood.


No offense, but what statistics show is more important that what you feel.  Americans were not measurably safer or happier in the 1940s or 1950s than they are now.


happiness and safety are not a moral measurement.
 
2013-05-09 10:39:34 AM
At least the neighbors didn't see this
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-05-09 11:20:56 AM

Waldo Pepper: ciberido: No offense, but what statistics show is more important that what you feel.  Americans were not measurably safer or happier in the 1940s or 1950s than they are now.

happiness and safety are not a moral measurement.


If you're not concerned about the safety and happiness of the people who live in your society, then you are the immoral one.
 
2013-05-09 11:40:36 AM

Cytokine Storm: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: Waldo Pepper: I feel people were socially better mannered then now and I this is a lot of what people miss.

Did you miss my quotation from 423 BC?  Every generation thinks that "kids these days" lack the good manners that their generation had growing up.  People have been making that claim long before Jesus was born.

There are all kinds of stats showing that people THINK crime is getting worse, when it's actually getting better.  It's perfectly natural for you to FEEL that people were socially better mannered then, it's human nature to feel that way, but please do not trust such feelings as they are not congruent with measurable reality.

I saw what you wrote and I disagree with it in some areas. I feel we had a brief period in time where the average white middle/upper-class child had what one could consider the perfect childhood.

FTFY


I saw what you wrote and I disagree with it in some areas. I feel we had a brief period in time where the average white middle/upper-class child had what one could consider the perfect childhood, and usually didn't know about the ones that didn't.

I grew up in the 70s and 80s in a middle/upper class family and had said "perfect childhood".  On the other hand, one day in 4th grade the teacher announced that one of our classmates (basically a friend of a friend) wouldn't be coming back as his father stabbed him in the heart and he was in critical condition.  Another friend had a violent father and was "accident prone".  Another had weird sexual issues (may have been abused, or maybe just the general abuse of being gay in Reagan's America).  Another was basically raised by his father to be unbelievably misogynic (think Joe Kennedy Sr.).  My best friend suddenly stopped hanging out with me and I later found out that it was because of family issues (his mother was openly cheating and divorcing her husband, plus he was Catholic and that wasn't quite common yet, at least in that neighborhood).  That was just the boys, FSM only knows what the girls went through.

So basically a bunch of us had "perfect childhoods" only by sacrificing any type of care (other than medical care for the kid who got stabbed) of any who didn't.  The scary thing is just how many people want to go back to that state (and often feel that those who didn't deserved it).
 
2013-05-09 12:59:24 PM

ciberido: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: No offense, but what statistics show is more important that what you feel.  Americans were not measurably safer or happier in the 1940s or 1950s than they are now.

happiness and safety are not a moral measurement.

If you're not concerned about the safety and happiness of the people who live in your society, then you are the immoral one.


It appears your definition of safety is measured only by criminal activity and yet how many treads on fark complain about helicopter parents who are concerned about their little snowflakes getting a boo boo. Past generations realized that a child getting hurt while playing was part of growing up and the child learning about the consequences of their actions.

Happiness is not the job of the government or society. one does not have to be middle or upper middle class to be happy or safe. Being poor, uneducated and living in a less then steller neighborhood is not morally corrupt.

Killing 3500  baby humans a day is morally corrupt; children having easy access to porn on the internet is morally corrupt; the news media being in bed with big business is morally corrupt; CEO's taking big paydays while pay cutting jobs and/or not paying decent wages is morally corrupt.
 
2013-05-09 02:26:04 PM

Waldo Pepper: Killing 3500 baby humans a day is morally corrupt;


Geez, you and your rules... Fine, just how many am I allowed to kill per day, then??

In reality, I don't think this happens at all... If it does, it's certainly illegal... (If you're going for the "fetus == baby" thing, please don't... If you can't win the argument by arguing with factual terminology and need to invoke hyperbolic bullshiat instead, that's a good indication your argument deserves to lose... You can believe it's wrong to kill a fetus, but you'll have to understand that not everyone agrees with you on that point...)

children having easy access to porn on the internet is morally corrupt;

I don't see how... Besides, that's a parental issue: if you don't want your kid to see it, monitor their Internet activity, install filtering software, etc... But, who is the morally corrupt person in this case in your mind? The kids accessing the smut? Their parents for not preventing them from doing so? Surely not the people making it available to adults on the Internet who aren't responsible for your kids finding it and then lying by claiming to be 18 or older in order to access it?

the news media being in bed with big business is morally corrupt; CEO's taking big paydays while pay cutting jobs and/or not paying decent wages is morally corrupt.

These two I'll completely agree with you about...
 
2013-05-09 02:45:44 PM

RobSeace: Waldo Pepper: Killing 3500 baby humans a day is morally corrupt;

Geez, you and your rules... Fine, just how many am I allowed to kill per day, then??

In reality, I don't think this happens at all... If it does, it's certainly illegal... (If you're going for the "fetus == baby" thing, please don't... If you can't win the argument by arguing with factual terminology and need to invoke hyperbolic bullshiat instead, that's a good indication your argument deserves to lose... You can believe it's wrong to kill a fetus, but you'll have to understand that not everyone agrees with you on that point...)

children having easy access to porn on the internet is morally corrupt;

I don't see how... Besides, that's a parental issue: if you don't want your kid to see it, monitor their Internet activity, install filtering software, etc... But, who is the morally corrupt person in this case in your mind? The kids accessing the smut? Their parents for not preventing them from doing so? Surely not the people making it available to adults on the Internet who aren't responsible for your kids finding it and then lying by claiming to be 18 or older in order to access it?

the news media being in bed with big business is morally corrupt; CEO's taking big paydays while pay cutting jobs and/or not paying decent wages is morally corrupt.

These two I'll completely agree with you about...


The one thing that hasn't changed is we are all entitled to state our opinions and can agree to disagree.
 
2013-05-09 02:53:31 PM

Waldo Pepper: ciberido: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: No offense, but what statistics show is more important that what you feel.  Americans were not measurably safer or happier in the 1940s or 1950s than they are now.

happiness and safety are not a moral measurement.

If you're not concerned about the safety and happiness of the people who live in your society, then you are the immoral one.

It appears your definition of safety is measured only by criminal activity and yet how many treads on fark complain about helicopter parents who are concerned about their little snowflakes getting a boo boo. Past generations realized that a child getting hurt while playing was part of growing up and the child learning about the consequences of their actions.

Happiness is not the job of the government or society. one does not have to be middle or upper middle class to be happy or safe. Being poor, uneducated and living in a less then steller neighborhood is not morally corrupt.

Killing 3500  baby humans a day is morally corrupt; children having easy access to porn on the internet is morally corrupt; the news media being in bed with big business is morally corrupt; CEO's taking big paydays while pay cutting jobs and/or not paying decent wages is morally corrupt.


So basically if we don't play YOUR rules, we are morally corrupt? Do you think women being maimed/dead from illegal abortions is moral? Or being carted off to marry their suitor because they got pregnant at 17 moral? Or children reading dad's Hustler and Play Boy that he hid under the couch a sign of impurity?

'Cause those things certainly happened back then.
 
2013-05-09 03:20:04 PM

Lollipop165: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: Waldo Pepper: ciberido: No offense, but what statistics show is more important that what you feel.  Americans were not measurably safer or happier in the 1940s or 1950s than they are now.

happiness and safety are not a moral measurement.

If you're not concerned about the safety and happiness of the people who live in your society, then you are the immoral one.

It appears your definition of safety is measured only by criminal activity and yet how many treads on fark complain about helicopter parents who are concerned about their little snowflakes getting a boo boo. Past generations realized that a child getting hurt while playing was part of growing up and the child learning about the consequences of their actions.

Happiness is not the job of the government or society. one does not have to be middle or upper middle class to be happy or safe. Being poor, uneducated and living in a less then steller neighborhood is not morally corrupt.

Killing 3500  baby humans a day is morally corrupt; children having easy access to porn on the internet is morally corrupt; the news media being in bed with big business is morally corrupt; CEO's taking big paydays while pay cutting jobs and/or not paying decent wages is morally corrupt.

So basically if we don't play YOUR rules, we are morally corrupt? Do you think women being maimed/dead from illegal abortions is moral? Or being carted off to marry their suitor because they got pregnant at 17 moral? Or children reading dad's Hustler and Play Boy that he hid under the couch a sign of impurity?

'Cause those things certainly happened back then.


I'm not asking you to agree with what I consider to be moral and immoral; there are areas where we all agree on and there areas where may disagree.
 
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