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(Slate)   Meet William Hornaday, who after spending the first part of his life traveling the globe and killing just about every exotic animal he could find, helped found the American conservation and environmentalist movements   (slate.com) divider line 138
    More: Ironic, William Hornaday, Americans, exotic animals, conservations, Bronx Zoo, pinnipeds, environmentalists, Bass Ale  
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3978 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 1:29 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-08 12:58:23 PM  
It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.

There are 3 kinds of hunting:

1. Subsistence hunting.  This is hunting for food, ie., in order to survive.  It can also include hunting things that are eating your crops or your children.

2. Market hunting:  This is hunting for money.  It can be legal or illegal (poaching), and it can even be to collect a government provided bounty, but the motivation is cash.

3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it.

The first two have resulted in the extinction and near extinction of countless animals.

The last one, sport hunting, has a track record of *INCREASING* the numbers of game animals.   The reason for this apparent paradox is that sport hunters want to keep on doing what they like, and they will invest time and money into things like habitat protection to ensure that they continue to have animals to hunt.
 
2013-05-08 01:27:32 PM  
Killing animals for their heads is bullsh*t.
 
2013-05-08 01:32:17 PM  
He's not just a member of the Super Adventure Club he's the president!
 
2013-05-08 01:33:51 PM  

dittybopper: It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.

There are 3 kinds of hunting:

1. Subsistence hunting.  This is hunting for food, ie., in order to survive.  It can also include hunting things that are eating your crops or your children.

2. Market hunting:  This is hunting for money.  It can be legal or illegal (poaching), and it can even be to collect a government provided bounty, but the motivation is cash.

3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it.

The first two have resulted in the extinction and near extinction of countless animals.

The last one, sport hunting, has a track record of *INCREASING* the numbers of game animals.   The reason for this apparent paradox is that sport hunters want to keep on doing what they like, and they will invest time and money into things like habitat protection to ensure that they continue to have animals to hunt.


^^^^This right here^^^^.  And also see Alfred Nobel.
 
2013-05-08 01:35:38 PM  
Sounds like Teddy Roosevelt to me.
 
2013-05-08 01:36:55 PM  

dittybopper: It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.

There are 3 kinds of hunting:

1. Subsistence hunting.  This is hunting for food, ie., in order to survive.  It can also include hunting things that are eating your crops or your children.

2. Market hunting:  This is hunting for money.  It can be legal or illegal (poaching), and it can even be to collect a government provided bounty, but the motivation is cash.

3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase making yourself feel better by killing big, 'scary' animals.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it. are insecure.


FTFY. Put away the high-powered rifles and shiat, take down an elephant or leopard with a farking spear, and THEN I'll believe it's "about the challenge".
 
2013-05-08 01:37:51 PM  

Calmamity: Killing animals for their heads is bullsh*t.


Well they shouldnt have attached their heads to such tasty tasty meat.
 
2013-05-08 01:38:15 PM  
So if you hunt for the challenge and the chase why kill it?  I mean if your not going to eat it why not hit it with a paint ball or something?  Wouldn't that satisfy the drive to hunt or do you have to kill it for it to count?
 
2013-05-08 01:40:46 PM  

luxup: So if you hunt for the challenge and the chase why kill it?  I mean if your not going to eat it why not hit it with a paint ball or something?  Wouldn't that satisfy the drive to hunt or do you have to kill it for it to count?


Hell, I'd definitely support that kind of hunting. Or even hunting with tranquilizer darts or something, so you can keep the animal still long enough to get a picture.

Many sport fishermen are OK with catch and release, especially now that pretty much everyone (especially those who can afford to go sportfishing)  has a smartphone with a camera. Why do land-based hunters need trophies?
 
2013-05-08 01:42:15 PM  

Calmamity: Killing animals for their heads is bullsh*t.


Hell, local governments kill just to keep the population down.  At least they donate the meat, but the main purpose is to cull the population since they become "a nuisance".
 
2013-05-08 01:42:31 PM  

dittybopper: It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.

3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it.

The last one, sport hunting, has a track record of *INCREASING* the numbers of game animals.   The reason for this apparent paradox is that sport hunters want to keep on doing what they like, and they will invest time and money into things like habitat protection to ensure that they continue to have animals to hunt.


Go on. Keep believing that to justify your sport. Exotic animals with long life spans and limited breeding opportunities cannot outpace sport hunters in the wild.
 
2013-05-08 01:43:03 PM  

LordJiro: dittybopper: It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.

There are 3 kinds of hunting:

1. Subsistence hunting.  This is hunting for food, ie., in order to survive.  It can also include hunting things that are eating your crops or your children.

2. Market hunting:  This is hunting for money.  It can be legal or illegal (poaching), and it can even be to collect a government provided bounty, but the motivation is cash.

3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase making yourself feel better by killing big, 'scary' animals.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it. are insecure.

FTFY. Put away the high-powered rifles and shiat, take down an elephant or leopard with a farking spear, and THEN I'll believe it's "about the challenge".


Ironic that you chose those two animals. The skill in killing an elephant is that a bullet powerful enough to do it cleanly, doesnt lend itself to high capacity. Therefore you are dealing with single or double shot rifles to kill an animal whose 'kill box' is terribly small. An animal smart enough to know what your up to, quiet enough to surprise you, and fast enough to rush you making that kill shot all the smaller. Mess up the first shot, and you have an angry animal charging you at 30 mph. hooch the second, harder shot, and youre worm food.

Leopards are hard to hunt because they are elusive as hell. Tracking one down is ridiculously difficult and the window to engage it is literally seconds. They are also unpredictable. Sometimes they stalk you, sometimes they flee. Not being on your game is a fantastic way to end up on the bad end of a leopard, most of which are sharp.
 
2013-05-08 01:43:44 PM  
www.dtomtac.com
/oblig
 
2013-05-08 01:44:00 PM  

Subtle_Canary: Calmamity: Killing animals for their heads is bullsh*t.

Well they shouldnt have attached their heads to such tasty tasty meat.


I have no problem whatsoever with tasty meat hunting and hope to try it myself someday if I can find someone to teach me how to do it.

Trophy hunters, on the other hand, should be forced to wear Scotch Brite underwear soaked in lye.
 
2013-05-08 01:44:13 PM  
Let's not forget that environmentalism used to mean "save some trees for your grandkids to chop down" and conservation used to mean "save some animals for your grandkids to kill."
 
2013-05-08 01:44:52 PM  
dittybopper:
3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it.

What sport hunting might look like...

mikehanback.typepad.com

Ahh, the thrill of the chase.

Relentlessly stalking baiting the prey....
mssparky.com
 
2013-05-08 01:45:56 PM  
Approves:

www.bradleymanning.org
 
2013-05-08 01:46:13 PM  

Calmamity: Subtle_Canary: Calmamity: Killing animals for their heads is bullsh*t.

Well they shouldnt have attached their heads to such tasty tasty meat.

I have no problem whatsoever with tasty meat hunting and hope to try it myself someday if I can find someone to teach me how to do it.

Trophy hunters, on the other hand, should be forced to wear Scotch Brite underwear soaked in lye.


Im not going to BS you. I've NEVER hunted an animal because i needed the meat. I hunt them because its fun to do. The meat is simply a bonus. I tend to not even bother with my Doe tags every year unless a neighbor wants the venison.
 
2013-05-08 01:50:43 PM  

luxup: So if you hunt for the challenge and the chase why kill it?  I mean if your not going to eat it why not hit it with a paint ball or something?  Wouldn't that satisfy the drive to hunt or do you have to kill it for it to count?


In most safari hunts, the meat of the animal is distributed to local natives, who also make a fair bit of income from being guides, suppliers and other support for the hunting groups.

This has the effect of making it economically advantageous for the natives not to poach the animals, and to stop others from poaching the animals.  It also gives them an economic reason not to slash-and-burn the habitat into farmland.

The hunter gets a taxidermy trophy.  Meanwhile, due to economic incentives, the habitat is protected and the hunted species increases.  Everyone wins except the whiners.
 
2013-05-08 01:52:21 PM  

Calmamity: Subtle_Canary: Calmamity: Killing animals for their heads is bullsh*t.

Well they shouldnt have attached their heads to such tasty tasty meat.

I have no problem whatsoever with tasty meat hunting and hope to try it myself someday if I can find someone to teach me how to do it.

Trophy hunters, on the other hand, should be forced to wear Scotch Brite underwear soaked in lye.


Subsistence hunting is bad, much worse than trophy hunting.

A trophy hunter is going to be pretty selective about what he shoots.  Someone who kills merely to eat is going to shoot the first thing that crosses his path.
 
2013-05-08 01:52:49 PM  

LordJiro


Put away the high-powered rifles and shiat, take down an elephant or leopard with a farking spear, and THEN I'll believe it's "about the challenge".


Or just take a goddamn picture.
 
2013-05-08 01:53:14 PM  
Watch it you fark monkeys that have no idea what you are talking about. Guiding hunts feeds my family. Hunters and fishermen have always been the biggest and most effective supporters of environmental and wildlife conservation. fark you all that say trophy hunting is bad. It puts food on the table and money in my pocket. My clients go home with memories and respect for the wilderness of Canada. And their permit fees are one of the leading contributors to wildlife management and research . Bc guide Outfitters are on the leading edge of DNA sequencing research for north American land mammals. How much out of pocket have you spent on conservation research? Do you.volunteer for this research? I do, along with hundreds of other guides. So fark off city folk. And keep your nose out of shiat you are clueless about.
 
2013-05-08 01:54:12 PM  
This isn't unusual. Not everyone is required to enjoy the environment only one way. Perhaps that is green peace dogma but reality is most hunters and fishermen are tied into preservation funds so they can continue to hunt and fish.
 
2013-05-08 01:59:21 PM  

Maud Dib: dittybopper:
3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it.

What sport hunting might look like...

[mikehanback.typepad.com image 400x268]

Ahh, the thrill of the chase.

Relentlessly stalking baiting the prey....
[mssparky.com image 500x375]


Actually, this is what I use:

img236.imageshack.us

i45.tinypic.com

i48.tinypic.com

/Well *TECHNICALLY* that head I knapped is too small to hunt big game with in my state, but it's OK for small game and varmints like coyote.
//Am going to knap some bigger heads for the coming bow season
 
2013-05-08 02:01:24 PM  

SumoJeb: Watch it you fark monkeys that have no idea what you are talking about. Guiding hunts feeds my family. Hunters and fishermen have always been the biggest and most effective supporters of environmental and wildlife conservation. fark you all that say trophy hunting is bad. It puts food on the table and money in my pocket. My clients go home with memories and respect for the wilderness of Canada. And their permit fees are one of the leading contributors to wildlife management and research . Bc guide Outfitters are on the leading edge of DNA sequencing research for north American land mammals. How much out of pocket have you spent on conservation research? Do you.volunteer for this research? I do, along with hundreds of other guides. So fark off city folk. And keep your nose out of shiat you are clueless about.


Everyone needs a cause to make them feel good about their life. Knowledge of subject and effectiveness of action dont boost egos.
 
2013-05-08 02:03:06 PM  

SumoJeb: Watch it you fark monkeys that have no idea what you are talking about. Guiding hunts feeds my family. Hunters and fishermen have always been the biggest and most effective supporters of environmental and wildlife conservation. fark you all that say trophy hunting is bad. It puts food on the table and money in my pocket. My clients go home with memories and respect for the wilderness of Canada. And their permit fees are one of the leading contributors to wildlife management and research . Bc guide Outfitters are on the leading edge of DNA sequencing research for north American land mammals. How much out of pocket have you spent on conservation research? Do you.volunteer for this research? I do, along with hundreds of other guides. So fark off city folk. And keep your nose out of shiat you are clueless about.


Do you know how we know you didn't read the thread before posting?
 
2013-05-08 02:03:12 PM  

Englebert Slaptyback: LordJiro

Put away the high-powered rifles and shiat, take down an elephant or leopard with a farking spear, and THEN I'll believe it's "about the challenge".


Or just take a goddamn picture.


Ain't the same.

A a philosopher once said, "one does not hunt in order to kill, one kills in order to have hunted".
 
2013-05-08 02:06:27 PM  
www.adweek.com
 
2013-05-08 02:08:22 PM  

dittybopper: It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.


upload.wikimedia.org
Would like a word with you...
 
2013-05-08 02:10:17 PM  

dittybopper: Maud Dib: dittybopper:
3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it.

What sport hunting might look like...

[mikehanback.typepad.com image 400x268]

Ahh, the thrill of the chase.

Relentlessly stalking baiting the prey....
[mssparky.com image 500x375]

Actually, this is what I use:

[img236.imageshack.us image 582x181]

[i45.tinypic.com image 640x480]

[i48.tinypic.com image 640x480]

/Well *TECHNICALLY* that head I knapped is too small to hunt big game with in my state, but it's OK for small game and varmints like coyote.
//Am going to knap some bigger heads for the coming bow season


Damn, Squanto!
You hunt old, old, OLD school style.

/Srsly though, that's pretty cool and it really does bring back the sport and skill involved with hunting.
//Especially the part about flint knapping...
///Keep the art alive, my man.
 
2013-05-08 02:16:39 PM  

guygadbois: dittybopper: It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x308]
Would like a word with you...


Sure thing:

It was not until the nation became more prosperous that sport hunters would become the 
impetus for early conservation efforts.
Landowners and businessmen, who no longer had 
to hunt for subsistence, formed clubs of like-minded friends to promote comradeship, a 
kinship with the pioneer spirit, and ethical hunting practices. The first sportsman's club 
was the Carroll's Island Club, formed in 1832 near Baltimore, Maryland, largely for 
waterfowl hunting. In 1844 the New York Sportsmen's Club was formed, which drafted 
model game laws recommending closed hunting seasons on woodcock, quail, and deer as 
well as on trout fishing. These laws were passed by the Orange and Rockland Counties 
of New York in 1848.
Many of the club members were attorneys, and they personally 
sued violators to encourage compliance with the law. Eventually, hundreds of local 
sportsmen's clubs were formed across the country, and similar game laws were passed. In 
addition to game limits and seasons, some states outlawed use of dogs for hunting and 
hunting at night with lights, and others banned the use of traps, snares and pitfalls, which 
were common at the time. Maine was the first state to employ a game warden, in 1852.


John Muir was born in 1838, 6 years *AFTER* the first sport hunters in the US started their conservation efforts.  The first laws on it in New York were passed when he was 10 years old.

Sport hunters did it first.
 
2013-05-08 02:18:14 PM  
I've always felt that, like Native Americans; if you kill an animal, you should use all of the parts possible. You shouldn't waste anything or as little as humanly possible.

If you don't want the meat, donate it. If you don't want the hide; donate it or find someone that does want it, there's plenty of market for deer hides. You can always give the bones to either a natural history museum, research facility or some other place. The only thing that it is alright to leave behind is the guts, and coyotes will be all over those.
 
2013-05-08 02:19:31 PM  
Did he found the actual environmental movement or the one that was taken over by radical left wing types later?
 
2013-05-08 02:23:37 PM  

dittybopper: The last one, sport hunting, has a track record of *INCREASING* the numbers of game animals. The reason for this apparent paradox is that sport hunters want to keep on doing what they like, and they will invest time and money into things like habitat protection to ensure that they continue to have animals to hunt.


Except that you don't hunt the raggedy-assed tick-infested lame herd-trailers when you hunt. You kill the biggest, strongest, most handsome animal you can find. Of course, by removing that premier specimen of the herd you've just diminished the herd's gene pool. Don't get me wrong, I get that you enjoy the hunt, challenge, etc. And yes, I agree completely that hunters and the license fees they pay support the protected lands which are habitat to the wildlife, but you're not really helping the species or populations by removing their very best from the breeding stock.
 
2013-05-08 02:24:22 PM  

DeathCipris: Damn, Squanto!
You hunt old, old, OLD school style.

/Srsly though, that's pretty cool and it really does bring back the sport and skill involved with hunting.
//Especially the part about flint knapping...
///Keep the art alive, my man.


I used to hunt with scoped .30'06 bolt action rifle, and a compound bow.

It got too easy for me.

So, instead of going the "bigger and better trophy" way, I went the "make it harder to do the same thing" way.  Another hunter I know went the other way, and he won't shoot anything with less than 8 points on it, but he uses all modern stuff.   Me?  I don't care.  I'll take a doe if the chance presents itself (generally, during the bow and muzzleloader seasons in my state, you can take a deer of either sex).

Our two strategies accomplish the same thing, though:  Making it more of a challenge.  Both are equally valid methods.
 
2013-05-08 02:28:33 PM  

DeathCipris: Damn, Squanto!


OH, and the name's not Squanto.  It's Magua.  Le Renard if you're nasty.

img.fark.net
 
2013-05-08 02:29:35 PM  

Kuta: Go on. Keep believing that to justify your sport. Exotic animals with long life spans and limited breeding opportunities cannot outpace sport hunters in the wild.


I always think of duck hunters vs ducks, compared to developers vs wetlands.
 
2013-05-08 02:30:44 PM  

dittybopper: DeathCipris: Damn, Squanto!

OH, and the name's not Squanto.  It's Magua.  Le Renard if you're nasty.

[img.fark.net image 850x723]


Well now that IS badass. And I commend your approach to keeping it interesting vs. usual dick-measuring method.
 
2013-05-08 02:30:45 PM  

dittybopper: DeathCipris: Damn, Squanto!

OH, and the name's not Squanto.  It's Magua.  Le Renard if you're nasty.

[img.fark.net image 850x723]


I totally just said whatever came to my mind and meant no offense. Your equipment certainly looked Native American in origin.
 
2013-05-08 02:31:36 PM  

dittybopper



Ain't the same.


Not the same? OF COURSE it's not the same. That's the point.

Going on a safari to Africa with the express purpose of killing exotic animals appears to be the antithesis of conservatism and tips toward selfishness: every exotic animal that is taken and taxidermied is one that someone else won't get to see in the wild. Not much conservation going on there.

I understand the need to keep deer population down to ensure there is enough food to support them, and obviously there are pest and nuisance animals, but the rare animal aspect is what bothers me. That's where I would prefer to see people just take a picture.
 
2013-05-08 02:35:54 PM  

LordJiro: dittybopper: It's *NOT* ironic, it's *EXPECTED*.

Sport hunters were the original conservationists.

There are 3 kinds of hunting:

1. Subsistence hunting.  This is hunting for food, ie., in order to survive.  It can also include hunting things that are eating your crops or your children.

2. Market hunting:  This is hunting for money.  It can be legal or illegal (poaching), and it can even be to collect a government provided bounty, but the motivation is cash.

3. Sport hunting.  This is hunting because you enjoy the challenge and the chase making yourself feel better by killing big, 'scary' animals.  You may eat the animal afterwards, but the primary purpose is because you enjoy it. are insecure.

FTFY. Put away the high-powered rifles and shiat, take down an elephant or leopard with a farking spear, and THEN I'll believe it's "about the challenge".


lulz...you are so right.  anybody who would look through a telescopic sight at an animal hundreds of yards away and kill it just to have it stuffed must have born with an incredibly small penis.
 
2013-05-08 02:36:04 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: dittybopper: The last one, sport hunting, has a track record of *INCREASING* the numbers of game animals. The reason for this apparent paradox is that sport hunters want to keep on doing what they like, and they will invest time and money into things like habitat protection to ensure that they continue to have animals to hunt.

Except that you don't hunt the raggedy-assed tick-infested lame herd-trailers when you hunt. You kill the biggest, strongest, most handsome animal you can find.


Actually, no, I don't.

Because I use primitive methods with limited range, and the fact that I don't use attractants or tree stands, generally, I end up taking the least wary animals.  Mostly, young does and yearling bucks.
 
2013-05-08 02:36:54 PM  
Clearly plagiarized.  Saint Hubertus was the first founder of the modern day ecology movement, and an avid hunter.

You can see his logo on the Jaegermeister bottle.

BTW, tree huggers: You know where the money comes from to conserve wildlife and pay the Game Warden's salary?  From licenses and fees paid by hunters, that's where!
 
2013-05-08 02:41:11 PM  

DeathCipris: dittybopper: DeathCipris: Damn, Squanto!

OH, and the name's not Squanto.  It's Magua.  Le Renard if you're nasty.

[img.fark.net image 850x723]

I totally just said whatever came to my mind and meant no offense. Your equipment certainly looked Native American in origin.


You don't know who Magua is?
 
2013-05-08 02:42:49 PM  

stir22: lulz...you are so right.  anybody who would look through a telescopic sight at an animal hundreds of yards away and kill it just to have it stuffed must have born with an incredibly small penis.


*TWEET*

Violation of Markley's Law.  Ten yard penalty and loss of argument.
 
2013-05-08 02:43:46 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

John James Audubon, killed thousands of birds to use as subjects when creating his Birds of America book. He once was quoted as claiming it wasn't a good day unless he killed 100 birds.

He later seemed to develop an opinion similar to Shifting Baselines Syndrome described in the article, when he stated, "A true conservationist is a man who knows that the world is not given by his fathers, but borrowed from his children."

It was a different day and age.  Had opinions didn't change more rapidly, we might still have Passenger Pigeons and other species ( Carolina Parakeet, Labrador Duck, Great Auk, Esquimaux Curlew, and Pinnated Grouse, just to name a few) which went extinct about the same time the buffalo was barely clinging to existence.
 
2013-05-08 02:45:16 PM  

dittybopper: DeathCipris: dittybopper: DeathCipris: Damn, Squanto!

OH, and the name's not Squanto.  It's Magua.  Le Renard if you're nasty.

[img.fark.net image 850x723]

I totally just said whatever came to my mind and meant no offense. Your equipment certainly looked Native American in origin.

You don't know who Magua is?


No idea. I was just CYA in case you were an angry Native American or something. You hunt with home-made flint knapped arrow tips and a black power muzzle loading rifle. I am not that moronic to piss you off lest I wish my own death...:D
 
2013-05-08 02:47:37 PM  

DeathCipris: dittybopper: DeathCipris: dittybopper: DeathCipris: Damn, Squanto!

OH, and the name's not Squanto.  It's Magua.  Le Renard if you're nasty.

[img.fark.net image 850x723]

I totally just said whatever came to my mind and meant no offense. Your equipment certainly looked Native American in origin.

You don't know who Magua is?

No idea. I was just CYA in case you were an angry Native American or something. You hunt with home-made flint knapped arrow tips and a black power muzzle loading rifle. I am not that moronic to piss you off lest I wish my own death...:D


This is Magua, as portrayed by Wes Studi in the film "Last of the Mohicans":

24.media.tumblr.com

He is one of the all-time bad-ass bad guys.
 
2013-05-08 02:50:39 PM  
Oh! Him! I have seen Last of the Mohicans, but it was years ago.
Yes, I know who you mean now.
 
2013-05-08 02:59:26 PM  

DeathCipris: Oh! Him! I have seen Last of the Mohicans, but it was years ago.
Yes, I know who you mean now.


To make the joke fully aware to you, I was riffing off they lyrics of an old Janet Jackson song:

No my first name ain't baby
It's Janet
Miss Jackson if you're nasty
 
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