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(LA Times)   In the last 20 years, gun murders have dropped almost by half. Fark: Americans believe gun crime is rising. Thanks, American media   (latimes.com) divider line 832
    More: Followup, Americans, Bureau of Justice Statistics, gun murders, spree killers, Pew Research Center, Small Arms Survey  
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6211 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 9:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-08 08:10:02 AM
There have always been floods, famine, war, poverty, earthquakes, etc; the biggest difference is that we are globally connected. Used to be that a typhoon in the Chinese sea would be like it doesnt exist for us in America. Now we are connected via the tubes we hear more shiat than we ever have before.
 
2013-05-08 08:10:08 AM
Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.
 
2013-05-08 08:18:49 AM

sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.


Tough nut to crack, though.  Background checks, for instance, aren't the end all beat all.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for enhanced background checks, but the newton massacre was carried out by lawfully purchased guns stolen from a crazy person's mother.  Assault weapons bans may have some merit, but you could easily carry out the same sort of mass murder with a few semiautomatic pistols.  Now I'm not saying "It's an impossible task, so why even try?", I'm saying we need some better answers.  I don't really have them, at least none that are the slightest bit politically viable here.  Banning all but single shot rifles and shotguns would probably help immensely, but fat chance of ever seeing that happen here.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-08 08:21:11 AM
Yes, those tough anti gun laws in some parts are starting to pay off.

Now we need to expand on a winning strategy.

/look at where the gun violence is highest
 
2013-05-08 08:28:39 AM

vpb: Yes, those tough anti gun laws in some parts are starting to pay off.

Now we need to expand on a winning strategy.

/look at where the gun violence is highest


Maine has a shiatton of guns and few gun laws and yet their murder rate is pretty much nearly at the bottom of all states for gun crimes.
 
2013-05-08 08:30:54 AM

nekom: sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.

Tough nut to crack, though.  Background checks, for instance, aren't the end all beat all.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for enhanced background checks, but the newton massacre was carried out by lawfully purchased guns stolen from a crazy person's mother.  Assault weapons bans may have some merit, but you could easily carry out the same sort of mass murder with a few semiautomatic pistols.  Now I'm not saying "It's an impossible task, so why even try?", I'm saying we need some better answers.  I don't really have them, at least none that are the slightest bit politically viable here.  Banning all but single shot rifles and shotguns would probably help immensely, but fat chance of ever seeing that happen here.


Interesting thing about background checks. 20 years ago the Brady act was signed into law implementing actual background checks. Lo and behold 20 years later gun violence is cut in half. But I am sure there will be someone here shortly to tell us the 2 things are in no way connected.
 
2013-05-08 08:34:49 AM

sammyk: nekom: sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.

Tough nut to crack, though.  Background checks, for instance, aren't the end all beat all.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for enhanced background checks, but the newton massacre was carried out by lawfully purchased guns stolen from a crazy person's mother.  Assault weapons bans may have some merit, but you could easily carry out the same sort of mass murder with a few semiautomatic pistols.  Now I'm not saying "It's an impossible task, so why even try?", I'm saying we need some better answers.  I don't really have them, at least none that are the slightest bit politically viable here.  Banning all but single shot rifles and shotguns would probably help immensely, but fat chance of ever seeing that happen here.

Interesting thing about background checks. 20 years ago the Brady act was signed into law implementing actual background checks. Lo and behold 20 years later gun violence is cut in half. But I am sure there will be someone here shortly to tell us the 2 things are in no way connected.


Care to cite?
 
2013-05-08 08:35:03 AM
sammyk:
Interesting thing about background checks. 20 years ago the Brady act was signed into law implementing actual background checks. Lo and behold 20 years later gun violence is cut in half. But I am sure there will be someone here shortly to tell us the 2 things are in no way connected.

Well, correlation does not imply causation, but it does suggest it's worth looking into.  I have nothing whatsoever against background checks, they may well stop some crimes, but they fall short of solving the problem entirely.  I'm not knocking them one bit, I'm saying we need more than just that.  I have a 6 year old daughter, I would prefer to live in a world where some lunatic will not shoot up her school.
 
2013-05-08 08:35:54 AM
Fact: The American people will believe anything as long is it validates their fears.
 
2013-05-08 08:37:55 AM

sammyk: nekom: sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.

Tough nut to crack, though.  Background checks, for instance, aren't the end all beat all.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for enhanced background checks, but the newton massacre was carried out by lawfully purchased guns stolen from a crazy person's mother.  Assault weapons bans may have some merit, but you could easily carry out the same sort of mass murder with a few semiautomatic pistols.  Now I'm not saying "It's an impossible task, so why even try?", I'm saying we need some better answers.  I don't really have them, at least none that are the slightest bit politically viable here.  Banning all but single shot rifles and shotguns would probably help immensely, but fat chance of ever seeing that happen here.

Interesting thing about background checks. 20 years ago the Brady act was signed into law implementing actual background checks. Lo and behold 20 years later gun violence is cut in half. But I am sure there will be someone here shortly to tell us the 2 things are in no way connected.


Also, to elaborate, we are also jailing people like we have never jailed them before. For 30 years the crime rate has fallen, not 20 as you say. It has been a downward trend even before the Brady legislation was signed.
 
2013-05-08 08:41:17 AM
Ahhh yes statistics, where we can make them say whatever we want
 
2013-05-08 08:58:30 AM

nekom: sammyk:
Interesting thing about background checks. 20 years ago the Brady act was signed into law implementing actual background checks. Lo and behold 20 years later gun violence is cut in half. But I am sure there will be someone here shortly to tell us the 2 things are in no way connected.

Well, correlation does not imply causation, but it does suggest it's worth looking into.  I have nothing whatsoever against background checks, they may well stop some crimes, but they fall short of solving the problem entirely.  I'm not knocking them one bit, I'm saying we need more than just that.  I have a 6 year old daughter, I would prefer to live in a world where some lunatic will not shoot up her school.


cman: sammyk: nekom: sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.

Tough nut to crack, though.  Background checks, for instance, aren't the end all beat all.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for enhanced background checks, but the newton massacre was carried out by lawfully purchased guns stolen from a crazy person's mother.  Assault weapons bans may have some merit, but you could easily carry out the same sort of mass murder with a few semiautomatic pistols.  Now I'm not saying "It's an impossible task, so why even try?", I'm saying we need some better answers.  I don't really have them, at least none that are the slightest bit politically viable here.  Banning all but single shot rifles and shotguns would probably help immensely, but fat chance of ever seeing that happen here.

Interesting thing about background checks. 20 years ago the Brady act was signed into law implementing actual background checks. Lo and behold 20 years later gun violence is cut in half. But I am sure there will be someone here shortly to tell us the 2 things are in no way connected.

Also, to elaborate, we are also jailing people like we have never jailed them before. For 30 years the crime rate has fallen, not 20 as you say. It has been a downward trend even before the Brady legislation was signed.


You are both right. There may be other factors that have influenced the numbers. The problem is we will never get an honest study to asses the impact of the Brady Act. I've heard of provisions getting stuffed into gun control or other legislation that explicitly makes it illegal to even study it.

/copy/pasta from wiki

The Brady Law todayFrom 1994 through 2009, over 107 million Brady background checks were conducted. During this period 1.9 million attempted firearm purchases were blocked by the Brady background check system, or 1.8 percent. For checks done by the In 2009, felons accounted for 48 percent of denials and fugitives from justice accounted for 16 percent of denials. Between 2000 and 2009, over 30,000 denials were reversed on appeal. In April 2009, the FBI announced it had completed its 100 millionth NICS approval since its inception 10 years before.
It's hard to argue that Brady has had no impact. It's damn near impossible to quantify that impact.
 
2013-05-08 09:03:58 AM
It's all video games fault!

images.huffingtonpost.com
 
2013-05-08 09:06:14 AM

scottydoesntknow: It's all video games fault!

[images.huffingtonpost.com image 850x637]


Yes, but just the other day there was an article about a pickaxe murder.  Gun violence on the decline, pickaxe violence on the rise.  I blame minecraft.
 
2013-05-08 09:35:02 AM
And how one chooses to respond to statistics like these is apparently a matter of interpretation. For some on the right, the argument seems to be, "But look at how much better things are than 20 years ago!" For the left, the argument is, "We still have far more gun deaths than any industrialized democracy on the planet, and with some sensible safety measures, we can build on the recent progress and save more lives."

It's a debate, in other words, between "better" and "not good enough." Link
 
2013-05-08 09:42:45 AM
Let's see.. more areas with more gun control in last 20 years.. gun crime drops. Funny that.
 
2013-05-08 09:43:14 AM
Fear sells.
 
2013-05-08 09:43:52 AM
2nd amendment:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "


the right of the people to KEEP and BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
 
2013-05-08 09:44:23 AM

sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.


We should start with automobiles.

Car crashes kill WAY more people then guns.

So does alcohol.

We should make a government list of people mentally capable of buying booze or a death machine like a car.
 
2013-05-08 09:44:40 AM
My right to own an inanimate object trumps your right to live
 
2013-05-08 09:44:45 AM

vpb: Yes, those tough anti gun laws in some parts are starting to pay off.

Now we need to expand on a winning strategy.


Yeah, that has really worked in Chicago!
 
2013-05-08 09:45:36 AM

Princess Ryans Knickers: Let's see.. more areas with more gun control in last 20 years.. gun crime drops. Funny that.


Actually, It's up in gun free zones almost universally.

All the mass shootings have taken place in gun free zones / places with tight gun control.

/funny that.
 
2013-05-08 09:46:00 AM
Yes, but phaser, laser, disruptor and D-R gun killings are through the roof. I'm afraid to fly over some parts of the city in my car, which is flyable. Oh, what a horrible future this is. I mean present.
 
2013-05-08 09:46:31 AM
Oh, god.  I look into this thread and it's the same old arguments and the same old statements.

I wonder if all these idiots are new idiots or if it's the same old idiots who have nothing new to say.
 
2013-05-08 09:46:42 AM

CPennypacker: My right to own an inanimate object trumps your right to live


Your right to be afraid and ban something you aren't likely to encounter ever in your life does not trump my right to own a goddamn thing you pansy.
 
2013-05-08 09:46:51 AM
So, these are statistics that the NRA didn't buy off Congress to quit collecting? Sorry if my frown that says "you're full of farking bullshiat" hasn't suddenly vanished.
 
2013-05-08 09:47:36 AM

nekom: Well, correlation does not imply causation


No. Correlation does in fact imply causation. Correlation does not *equal* causation though.
 
2013-05-08 09:47:49 AM
From the study:

www.pewsocialtrends.org
 
2013-05-08 09:47:54 AM

soakitincider: 2nd amendment:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "


the right of the people to KEEP and BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.


Please explain how banning all semi-automatic firearms and handguns and prohibiting you from accessing any functional firearm in your home is an infringement on your right to keep and bear arms.
 
2013-05-08 09:48:00 AM

fluffy2097: CPennypacker: My right to own an inanimate object trumps your right to live

Your right to be afraid and ban something you aren't likely to encounter ever in your life does not trump my right to own a goddamn thing you pansy.


Hey I'm on your side. Don't take my stuff.
 
2013-05-08 09:48:02 AM

sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.


Done in two. Individual homicides by people with their backgrounds checked? Sad, but it's the price of living of a gun-owning society.
Mass homicides by people who had no business touching those weapons in the first place? Those deaths might have been prevented if not for the "don't grab muh gunz" crowd.
 
2013-05-08 09:48:07 AM
So criminal background checks that the previous gun bans worked!!!
 
2013-05-08 09:48:08 AM

nekom


Background checks, for instance, aren't the end all beat all.


The phrase you want is "be all, end all".
 
2013-05-08 09:48:19 AM

fluffy2097: Princess Ryans Knickers: Let's see.. more areas with more gun control in last 20 years.. gun crime drops. Funny that.

Actually, It's up in gun free zones almost universally.

All the mass shootings have taken place in gun free zones / places with tight gun control.

/funny that.


That is my new favorite description.

"This chicken is almost universally free of salmonella."
 
2013-05-08 09:48:24 AM

cman: vpb: Yes, those tough anti gun laws in some parts are starting to pay off.

Now we need to expand on a winning strategy.

/look at where the gun violence is highest

Maine has a shiatton of guns and few gun laws and yet their murder rate is pretty much nearly at the bottom of all states for gun crimes.


Weird, it's almost as if the guns and gun laws really don't play as much a part as does the demographics of the various communities.
 
2013-05-08 09:49:06 AM

scottydoesntknow: It's all video games fault!

[images.huffingtonpost.com image 850x637]


I blame pirates.
 
2013-05-08 09:49:33 AM

EyeballKid: So, these are statistics that the NRA didn't buy off Congress to quit collecting? Sorry if my frown that says "you're full of farking bullshiat" hasn't suddenly vanished.


You are correct; crime statistics that do not lend support to advocacy of civilian disarmament may be disregarded as inconvenient.
 
2013-05-08 09:50:03 AM
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

Authorities point to the massive sale of the cheap and easy to produce Russian Doyaselfinski Pistol which flooded U S markets as a major factor.
 
2013-05-08 09:50:40 AM
Do we have an acceptable threshold of gun murders?  It really should be zero.
 
2013-05-08 09:51:27 AM

CPennypacker: My right to own an inanimate object trumps your right to live


Blatant false dichotomy is blatantly false.
 
2013-05-08 09:51:54 AM

fluffy2097: sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.

We should start with automobiles.

Car crashes kill WAY more people then guns.

So does alcohol.

We should make a government list of people mentally capable of buying booze or a death machine like a car.


You need to pass a test to get a driver's license, and that license can be taken away. There are state laws banning alcohol sales to people with X number of DUI citations.
 
2013-05-08 09:52:06 AM
 
2013-05-08 09:52:17 AM

GoldSpider: CPennypacker: My right to own an inanimate object trumps your right to live

Blatant false dichotomy is blatantly false.


Overused meme is overused
 
2013-05-08 09:52:19 AM
Since there is no other place to say this:

I wish that folks would stop lumping suicide by gun into gun death stats.  My reason is this: If someone is determined to kill themselves, they are going to use whatever means necessary, and all the gun laws in the world will not stop someone who has decided to off themselves.

I understand why the left likes to keep those numbers in the stat, because it bolsters their message, but it is disingenuous.

\That's all I have to say about that
 
2013-05-08 09:52:39 AM

scottydoesntknow: It's all video games fault!

[images.huffingtonpost.com image 850x637]


That's because in 1996 a video game cost $20 bucks, now it's $70 bucks plus $30 worth of 'extras' they sell after you've bought the game.
 
2013-05-08 09:52:47 AM
if you ban news media, only criminals with squirrel nut jpgs will post on fark.
 
2013-05-08 09:52:58 AM

sammyk: Good. Now lets see if we can do a better job of keeping crazy people from having guns, and felons too. As long as we keep having mass killings we are going to keep having the gun control debate. Just because we have made progress on gun violence doesn't mean we can just throw our hands up in the air and accept the tragedies we keep reliving.


'I'm glad people have this misconception and this false belief works in favor of what I really want... so it's fine'

There's something wrong with you when you basically don't care about what's true and are perfectly happy to let people believe something that's false just so long as gets you what you want.

Religion works this way.
 
2013-05-08 09:53:02 AM

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: Do we have an acceptable threshold of gun murders?


Good question.  Do we have an acceptable threshold of any other kind of unnatural death?
 
2013-05-08 09:53:46 AM

vpb: Yes, those tough anti gun laws in some parts are starting to pay off.

Now we need to expand on a winning strategy.

/look at where the gun violence is highest


Bullshait.
 
2013-05-08 09:54:16 AM

soakitincider: 2nd amendment:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "


the right of the people to KEEP and BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.


3rd amendment:

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

They were both written in the same general era, and they are both pretty much anachronisms.
 
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