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(Fox News)   The new "environmentally friendly" high-octane E15 fuel that Obama is about to mandate for all cars may damage your fuel lines, destroy your engine, void your warranty, and possibly -- who can say for sure? -- kill you dead   (foxnews.com) divider line 40
    More: Scary, obama, Renewable Fuels Association, individual mandate, ethanol  
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9533 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 5:50 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-05-08 06:04:49 AM
5 votes:
This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.
2013-05-08 01:08:41 AM
5 votes:

unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry


FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two Japanese companies that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?
2013-05-08 06:11:48 AM
4 votes:
Replace Iowa as the first primary state. Problem solved.
2013-05-08 02:00:17 AM
4 votes:

King Something: remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two a Japanese company that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?

Toyota owns Lexus.


Thanks.  It's late, I'm barely awake.  Point is the same.  A respected company says not to use it in their cars.  Seems like it isn't just some crazed right wingers, it's real engineers with the science and testing saying no to it.

It's a horrible idea anyway, using all that energy to produce less energy isn't a good start, then it's less efficient so it costs more per mile to use it.  Plus, it diverts a huge amount of corn into this silly effort which causes our grocery bill to skyrocket because animal grain feed costs more, grain costs more, etc.

The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies
2013-05-08 08:04:59 AM
3 votes:
I don't take science advice from a news source that doesn't accept evolution as scientific fact.
2013-05-08 06:26:29 AM
3 votes:
Oh crap, it's on! The agribusiness lobby vs the oil lobby!  No matter who wins we lose.

giftedmadness: I remember about 6 months ago there was a thread about ethanol and a few libs on here were claiming it it was never about helping the environment.  Where is whidbey for this thread? lol


Was it about cellulose ethanol or corn ethanol?

Using something like switchgrass or, as Moonfisher said, the inedible parts of corn would be an effective way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions without being wasteful.  We're using corn (including the edible parts) because it's subsidized to the hilt and we have more corn than places we can stick it.  That's just a giant waste of farmland and taxpayer dollars.  We're also raising the price of corn, despite record harvests, because we've got food demand AND energy demand.
2013-05-08 07:16:29 AM
2 votes:
When I was 16 I built a "hypermileage vehicle" for a SAE contest.  Our car was similar to the Edison2 linked above, and made 488 mpg on 85% Ethanol.  This is impressive, but it is still the wrong fuel for the future.

1 - Diesel fuels - the Diesel engine was designed to run on almost any combustible liquid, and can run on recycled oils, or fermented algae.
2 - Hydrogen - massively available, emissions are water, and it's already been done.

Pick one.

Batteries are terrible, they do a horrible job storing power and they get that power from (at least right now) the burning of OTHER fossil fuels.  Never mind their limited range and immense charge times.
Ethanol additives only reduce the power output from an otherwise fine engine, and older engine components and some non-OEM parts cannot accept ethanol.  Buying new cars is NOT environmentally friendly.  Look at the cash for clunkers disaster.  And no matter how much you want ethanol to exist in fuels, people are still going to want to own and drive their classic cars.
2013-05-08 06:54:16 AM
2 votes:
Oil companies say

And that's all you need to know.
2013-05-08 06:43:44 AM
2 votes:

log_jammin: agree or disagree, that isn't exactly what anyone would call "fraud".


Fraud: intentional deception for personal gain.

If the fraudulent person takes away one of three things from you:

1. Money.

2. Something else of value, real estate, jewelry, etc.

3. A legal right.

So the ethanol suppliers are taking your money and not giving you the same value back, all while saying that it's a good thing..

Compare gasoline's energy density to ethanol's. It is fraud.
2013-05-08 06:31:29 AM
2 votes:

mike_d85: Archie Goodwin: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?

Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.

Lead was freaking awesome for everything. That paint won't come off, the gas won't go bad, and your car's radiator will never break.

Why did people have to CONSUME it?


Of course, all of that lead also wound up giving us horribly crime ridden cities too, but surely that's a small price to pay for durability.
2013-05-08 05:53:33 AM
2 votes:
I don't trust Fox to correctly report the current time, let alone anything harder to verify.
2013-05-08 02:40:46 AM
2 votes:

log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?


That using corn for this is a good idea.  It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest.  They use sugar cane in South America.  There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.
2013-05-08 01:58:03 AM
2 votes:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/four-t h ings-to-know-about-e15-15096134

All cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components.

...

But the main issue is whether or not your vehicle will be covered under warranty for any damage caused by E15 usage, and in many cases the answer is no. GM and Ford have certified their own vehicles starting with the 2012 and 2013 model years, respectively, so some brand-new cars will have no trouble at all.

So in short, buy a new car if you want us to honor the warranty, otherwise we will blame any problem you have on E15, forcing you to eat the cost yourself.
2013-05-08 01:55:04 AM
2 votes:

Dufus: vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.

The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.


It's almost like the engines over the years have changed.
Old motorcycles from the 80's could handle any type of gas and anything through them. 
The newer engines are far more picky and have to deal with higher refinement.
Injectors now a days have smaller lines, finer channels and more to screw up. 
Also the petroleum companies love to add "cleaners" and other additives to their gas.

Also going back to the article. It's totally normal for cars to have restrictions on their fuel. 
I'm sure both my cars would handle the E15 fine, but I get why some would have an issue.
2013-05-07 10:36:43 PM
2 votes:

vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.


The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.
2013-05-07 09:13:32 PM
2 votes:
Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?
2013-05-08 02:29:49 PM
1 votes:
Honestly I am not exactly happy about this e-15 thing. I don't want to run e-15 in my motorcycle, as Suzuki has said it is a bad idea... but the problem is the blenders. If I want e-10 I have to wait for someone to fill up with e-10 in front of me or I am screwed. The EPA has said in order to "minimize impact on e-10" and misfueling they have set a 4 gallon minimum purchase. My tank is 4 gallons.... and there is absolutely no way I can run it to empty and fill up every time.

If they mandate e-15 then a lot of motorcycle riders are going to be screwed.
2013-05-08 12:47:12 PM
1 votes:

vikingfan73: Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.

This.  40% of the country's corn crop is currently used for ethanol, rather than for things like animal feed.

That scarcity of corn has raised the price of corn.

That increased price of corn translates to increased prices of things like, milk, beef, pork, chicken, you name it.  I know that in my neighborhood, I've seen the meat prices increase 50% or greater over the past few years.  Chicken used to be a relatively economical dinner.  Not so much anymore.

Using simple math, mandatory E-15 could result in 60% of the nation's corn being used for ethanol.  The simplistic conclusion would be to grow more corn.  Ahhh... but consider how much water is being used to grow corn?  I've seen figures ranging upwards of 1,000 gallons of water needed to produce one gallon of ethanol.

Or maybe we should start importing corn?  Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?


The nitrates used for the fertilizer come from oil byproducts and the insecticides used to protect the crop also contain petrol products, the pumps used for irrigation are diesel powered water pumps... I'm not saying that there's as much oil going into the Corn crops that are used to add to Petrol, but it's not oil free...

The corn/ethanol push is just another ploy to keep Big Farmers well subsidized. Corn is super cheap to grow per acre and the subsidies from the gov. provide Big Farmers/Big Corn billions in profits for no reason. Corn isn't the natural food for cattle OR flightless fowl, and feeding them corn creates hazardous conditions that promotes e-coli. Basically by denying the cattle the high fiber based diet they evolved the rumen for, the cattle's digestive tract has a higher pH level that is favorable for e-coli to survive and spread into the feces where the animals are exposed to and the manure is also used in fertilizers where it can spread e-coli to things like spinach (remember the spinach e-coli scare a couple years ago?).

So, in short, F* corn subsidies and the corn lobby, we don't want that shiat in our food or our gas tanks!
2013-05-08 11:50:02 AM
1 votes:

Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.


This.  40% of the country's corn crop is currently used for ethanol, rather than for things like animal feed.

That scarcity of corn has raised the price of corn.

That increased price of corn translates to increased prices of things like, milk, beef, pork, chicken, you name it.  I know that in my neighborhood, I've seen the meat prices increase 50% or greater over the past few years.  Chicken used to be a relatively economical dinner.  Not so much anymore.

Using simple math, mandatory E-15 could result in 60% of the nation's corn being used for ethanol.  The simplistic conclusion would be to grow more corn.  Ahhh... but consider how much water is being used to grow corn?  I've seen figures ranging upwards of 1,000 gallons of water needed to produce one gallon of ethanol.

Or maybe we should start importing corn?  Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?
2013-05-08 09:11:08 AM
1 votes:

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.


i5.photobucket.com
2013-05-08 08:39:59 AM
1 votes:

Psylence: Egoy3k: ITT: North Americans are very scared and confused by adopting a practice that has been in use in South American for many years.

You don't appear to know a whole lot about internal combusiton engines and how they have changed thru the years. You should probably keep quiet and try to learn something.


Says the guy who uses 98 octane fuel in small engines.....
2013-05-08 08:21:27 AM
1 votes:
I have had my car for 12 out of its 13 years and I remember when $20 would fill the tank, now its $40.

I do worry what other components I'm going to need to replace to keep her running on this new gasoline.

I don't think I should be forced to buy a new car when mine suits my needs and has fewer problems than most of the newer cars on the road. Very few electronic components to break. Except the blasted windows....

It is fraud if the gas is sold at the same (or higher) price to the consumer when it provides less energy. Ripping off the consumer as usual.
2013-05-08 08:07:37 AM
1 votes:
Obama....is there anything he can do...right.
2013-05-08 07:29:51 AM
1 votes:
We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?
2013-05-08 07:19:42 AM
1 votes:
Faux News is retarded, as usual.

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e.  older vehicles, or vehicles still using metal-lined gas tanks) the ethanol can act as a solvent, knocking it lose and running it through your engine and causing mechanical failure or damage. Ethanol has also shown slight potential to be corrosive to aluminum, however most of that extends from the aforementioned fact.

2) Ethanol burns at a higher temperature than typical unleaded gasoline. It also gells at lower temperatures reducing vapor volume- which is why diesel engines (lacking spark plugs for initiation) have some difficulty starting in climates with lower pressure and lower temperature (such as in the Rocky Mountains). The 'wait to start' is from a glowplug using battery power to warm the air within the cylinders to counteract this. Most unleaded vehicles don't have to worry because of the use of spark plugs.

3) Reduction in fuel economy.

Ethanol was never intended to be a permanent solution; just a quick fix to alleviate dependency on foreign oil. Any other questions should be directed to your local mechanic.
2013-05-08 06:54:49 AM
1 votes:

Third Day Mark: Hopman: The guberment did something similar with diesels a few vyears back. You know mandating the redcution of emissions that actually make diesels more complex due to the addition of DEF systems & other emmissions crap. All I can say is here we go again.

The new truck emissions systems on hevy diesels are nothing but heartburn. My work truck (a 2013 Internatioal with roghly 36,000 miles on it) h as already had the EGR coolor replaced as well as other issues with the system.

And my work truck (97 and 99 International 4300's with 486,xxx and 387,xxx miles respectively) have BOTH, been using the diesel blends, with 0 problems what so ever.

You just got a lemon.


Internationals really strike me as a piece of crap lately. Our third ambulance is an International with a Type I body mounted on it. 6 months old, 20k miles, and it's been through two head gaskets and a complete revamp of the fuel system in that time, and a rear axle.
2013-05-08 06:44:04 AM
1 votes:

Enemabag Jones: jaytkay ,
TFA: Ethanol supporters..claim,,Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.
Seems like an easy claim to verify.

I believe that engines there, at least sometimes, are made to cope with that.
Also this is based from sugar cane, is sugar cane ethanol same as corn ethanol?


You're farking with us, right?

Doesn't matter what plant it came from, you're still breaking it down to the same chemical formula -- Ethanol.
2013-05-08 06:38:56 AM
1 votes:

rynthetyn: remus: log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?

That using corn for this is a good idea.  It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest.  They use sugar cane in South America.  There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.

It's been a while since I read up on it, but I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol.


Yeah, and the corn lobby (Monsanto and Cargill) is 100% against legalizing hemp. Same reasons as Henri DuPont, W.R.Hearst and Adolph Coors had in demanding hemp be outlawed back in the late 19teens and early 1920s except for a different plant. Those guys had gigantic investments in timber, and hemp was the only real competition for the industrial fiber market.

Sure, the majority of the testimony in Congress at the time was about how legal hemp caused white women to want to sleep with negro jazz musicians and how it turned young people into slavering, murderous monsters, not to mention luring them into communism. The corn lobby has the same motivations, and actually uses the same propaganda as those old SilverShirt assholes did back then.
2013-05-08 06:29:44 AM
1 votes:
TFA: Ethanol supporters..claim,,Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.

Seems like an easy claim to verify.
2013-05-08 06:27:11 AM
1 votes:

Archie Goodwin: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?

Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.


Lead was freaking awesome for everything. That paint won't come off, the gas won't go bad, and your car's radiator will never break.

Why did people have to CONSUME it?
2013-05-08 06:24:23 AM
1 votes:
So, Fox news doesn't understand how engines work either. Shocking.
2013-05-08 06:22:59 AM
1 votes:
Jesus. Farking. Christ.

i.imgur.com
2013-05-08 06:05:44 AM
1 votes:
I have read studies that by the time the already inefficient corn breads down into ethanol, add in the energy to grow the corn and move it around, you use nearly that much energy as you have created.

Save $.10 on a $3.50 gallon for 3-4mpg less on 10% ethanol, it just isn't worth it.  Might as well build a battleship and blow it up if we want people employed for reasons of employment.   Still probably has more to do with ADM.

Maybe it works for Brazil with sugar cane, but not for corn.
2013-05-08 06:04:24 AM
1 votes:

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.
2013-05-08 05:44:25 AM
1 votes:
I run on high fructose corn syrup, getting a kick etc...
2013-05-08 03:37:12 AM
1 votes:

remus: we happen to have subsidize a crap load of it in the midwest


Fixed. We wouldn't happen to have all that corn but for the subsidies.
2013-05-08 03:19:51 AM
1 votes:

remus: That using corn for this is a good idea. It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest. They use sugar cane in South America. There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.


The corn lobby is powerful, that's all you need to know.
2013-05-08 12:37:15 AM
1 votes:
This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-07 09:54:39 PM
1 votes:
I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-07 09:51:46 PM
1 votes:

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Nothing.  Car engines have been made to use gasohol for years, but the laws don't apply to things like generators and lawnmowers.
 
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