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(Fox News)   The new "environmentally friendly" high-octane E15 fuel that Obama is about to mandate for all cars may damage your fuel lines, destroy your engine, void your warranty, and possibly -- who can say for sure? -- kill you dead   (foxnews.com) divider line 273
    More: Scary, obama, Renewable Fuels Association, individual mandate, ethanol  
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9533 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 5:50 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-07 09:13:32 PM
Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-07 09:51:46 PM

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Nothing.  Car engines have been made to use gasohol for years, but the laws don't apply to things like generators and lawnmowers.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-07 09:54:39 PM
I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.
 
2013-05-07 10:36:43 PM

vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.


The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.
 
2013-05-07 11:21:17 PM
Don't we use some blend of ethanol in California?
 
2013-05-07 11:40:22 PM
I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.
 
2013-05-08 12:02:02 AM

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.


One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.
 
2013-05-08 12:32:18 AM

Dufus: vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.

The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.


You are off by an order of magnitude. Times two, even, when you account for the winter/summer blend changeovers.

If I were to run for office that would be one of my stump platforms. Decrease the cost of gas by streamlining the chemical requirements nationwide. Let each state set a standard for each octane and diesel, and bring down the cost of logistics in exchange for a 5% fuel tax (having talked to some people in the petro industries, I got around 10% as the most conservative savings estimate, so half of that is fair) to be applied to infrastructure investment.
 
2013-05-08 12:33:40 AM
What would the world be like if all passenger cars just up and disappeared?
 
2013-05-08 12:37:15 AM
This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry
 
2013-05-08 12:46:42 AM

Lando Lincoln: What would the world be like if all passenger cars just up and disappeared?


We'd all be driving F150's?
 
2013-05-08 12:55:36 AM

ShawnDoc: Lando Lincoln: What would the world be like if all passenger cars just up and disappeared?

We'd all be driving F150's?


Sounds like somewhere in Texas
 
2013-05-08 01:08:41 AM

unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry


FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two Japanese companies that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?
 
2013-05-08 01:13:04 AM

remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two a Japanese company that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?


Toyota owns Lexus.
 
2013-05-08 01:31:54 AM
I had an 86 VW and its owners manual said that if you wanted to run 100% ethanol, that you should get a kit from the dealer or use unleaded every few tanks.
 
2013-05-08 01:55:04 AM

Dufus: vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.

The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.


It's almost like the engines over the years have changed.
Old motorcycles from the 80's could handle any type of gas and anything through them. 
The newer engines are far more picky and have to deal with higher refinement.
Injectors now a days have smaller lines, finer channels and more to screw up. 
Also the petroleum companies love to add "cleaners" and other additives to their gas.

Also going back to the article. It's totally normal for cars to have restrictions on their fuel. 
I'm sure both my cars would handle the E15 fine, but I get why some would have an issue.
 
2013-05-08 01:58:03 AM
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/four-t h ings-to-know-about-e15-15096134

All cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components.

...

But the main issue is whether or not your vehicle will be covered under warranty for any damage caused by E15 usage, and in many cases the answer is no. GM and Ford have certified their own vehicles starting with the 2012 and 2013 model years, respectively, so some brand-new cars will have no trouble at all.

So in short, buy a new car if you want us to honor the warranty, otherwise we will blame any problem you have on E15, forcing you to eat the cost yourself.
 
2013-05-08 02:00:17 AM

King Something: remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two a Japanese company that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?

Toyota owns Lexus.


Thanks.  It's late, I'm barely awake.  Point is the same.  A respected company says not to use it in their cars.  Seems like it isn't just some crazed right wingers, it's real engineers with the science and testing saying no to it.

It's a horrible idea anyway, using all that energy to produce less energy isn't a good start, then it's less efficient so it costs more per mile to use it.  Plus, it diverts a huge amount of corn into this silly effort which causes our grocery bill to skyrocket because animal grain feed costs more, grain costs more, etc.

The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies
 
2013-05-08 02:08:03 AM

remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies


what is the fraud exactly?
 
2013-05-08 02:40:46 AM

log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?


That using corn for this is a good idea.  It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest.  They use sugar cane in South America.  There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.
 
2013-05-08 02:46:26 AM
agree or disagree, that isn't exactly what anyone would call "fraud".
 
2013-05-08 03:19:51 AM

remus: That using corn for this is a good idea. It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest. They use sugar cane in South America. There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.


The corn lobby is powerful, that's all you need to know.
 
2013-05-08 03:37:12 AM

remus: we happen to have subsidize a crap load of it in the midwest


Fixed. We wouldn't happen to have all that corn but for the subsidies.
 
2013-05-08 05:44:25 AM
I run on high fructose corn syrup, getting a kick etc...
 
2013-05-08 05:53:33 AM
I don't trust Fox to correctly report the current time, let alone anything harder to verify.
 
2013-05-08 05:54:46 AM
The end is nigh! Repent sinners, repent!
 
2013-05-08 05:55:42 AM
I remember about 6 months ago there was a thread about ethanol and a few libs on here were claiming it it was never about helping the environment.  Where is whidbey for this thread? lol
 
2013-05-08 05:59:36 AM

ShawnDoc: remus: That using corn for this is a good idea. It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest. They use sugar cane in South America. There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.

The corn lobby is powerful, that's all you need to know.


The jacked up part is that we use the food part of corn when we could be using the throw-always, like husks and stalks. But that wouldn't be as profitable for the corn industry.
 
2013-05-08 06:02:28 AM
I like how most cars I see have a smudged fume stain (or whatever it is) right above the gas cap, which started when the ethanol thing did. There used to be a gas station that sold 100% gasoline about 10 miles from me, but they no longer do that. Now they only sell the regular stuff and "racing fuel" for about $6/gal.
 
2013-05-08 06:02:42 AM
beestonia.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-05-08 06:02:57 AM
Oddly enough, I was paging through a coworker's American Motorcycle Assn magazine yesterday, which ran an article/editorial (what article isn't an editorial any more?) concerning the same thing and coming down on the same side - 15% ethanol will void your warranty and destroy your engine.

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.
 
2013-05-08 06:04:24 AM

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.
 
2013-05-08 06:04:49 AM
This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.
 
2013-05-08 06:05:09 AM

giftedmadness: I remember about 6 months ago there was a thread about ethanol and a few libs on here were claiming it it was never about helping the environment.  Where is whidbey for this thread? lol


Are you suggesting that ethanol use is about helping the environment? Or are you just trying to stick it to the libs somehow? I don't think anyone but the corn lobby can actually spout the environmental claims with a straight face.
 
2013-05-08 06:05:44 AM
I have read studies that by the time the already inefficient corn breads down into ethanol, add in the energy to grow the corn and move it around, you use nearly that much energy as you have created.

Save $.10 on a $3.50 gallon for 3-4mpg less on 10% ethanol, it just isn't worth it.  Might as well build a battleship and blow it up if we want people employed for reasons of employment.   Still probably has more to do with ADM.

Maybe it works for Brazil with sugar cane, but not for corn.
 
2013-05-08 06:06:39 AM

Dufus: went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


You experienced what is known as fuel gelling. That white, fibrous sludge was Paraffin.
 
2013-05-08 06:08:42 AM
Nice one subby. You almost got me to click a Fox "News" link.

/almost
 
2013-05-08 06:09:40 AM
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that realizes that oil is a finite resource and will run out eventually. Nobody else seems to be scrambling to find alternatives
 
2013-05-08 06:10:19 AM
s21.postimg.org
E-85, the Ethanol Queen laughs at your unfounded fears.
 
2013-05-08 06:11:48 AM
Replace Iowa as the first primary state. Problem solved.
 
2013-05-08 06:14:38 AM
automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.
 
2013-05-08 06:14:40 AM

remus: log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?

That using corn for this is a good idea.  It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest.  They use sugar cane in South America.  There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.


It's been a while since I read up on it, but I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol.
 
2013-05-08 06:20:01 AM
E-15 killed my puppy and raped my baby!

i28.photobucket.com
Thanks, Obama!
 
2013-05-08 06:21:24 AM

rynthetyn: I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol


ugh, don't get the hemp people started.
 
2013-05-08 06:21:34 AM

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.


and years from now when absolutely nothing comes of this, you and other so called conservatives will completely forget just how wrong you are.
 
2013-05-08 06:22:59 AM
Jesus. Farking. Christ.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-08 06:23:06 AM

Southern100: automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.


i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-05-08 06:23:39 AM

RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


Isn't there some group that's successfully built a energy storage device that fills like a transistor, but discharges like normal battery?
 
2013-05-08 06:24:22 AM

Day_Old_Dutchie: E-85, the Ethanol Queen laughs at your unfounded fears.


While she changes her fuel filter every 5-10k. Shop I go to tested an ethanol car for 5k and pulled the brand new filter and cut it open and compsred it to others. 5k and it was gummed with chunks of stuff and had this greenish tint.
 
2013-05-08 06:24:23 AM

RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


Another alternative: build a lighter and more efficient vehicle, that way a smaller and less expensive battery will move you just as far.

110MPGe on Ethanol, 350MPGe on Electricity (using XPrize metrics)
245MPGe EPA 5-cycle combined (Electricity)
 
2013-05-08 06:24:23 AM
So, Fox news doesn't understand how engines work either. Shocking.
 
2013-05-08 06:24:24 AM
rynthetyn:

It's been a while since I read up on it, but I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol.

Sounds like a waste of "hemp" to me...
 
2013-05-08 06:24:50 AM

jaytkay: rynthetyn: I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol

ugh, don't get the hemp people started.


Oh yeah, probably shouldn't have reminded them. I wish I could remember where I read about it being good for ethanol though, because it was some entirely reputable and not at all stoner source.
 
2013-05-08 06:25:33 AM

Southern100: automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.


*cough* BULLshiat *cough* - Fartbongo's putting ammonia in the gasoline supply to poison us.

WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!
 
2013-05-08 06:26:29 AM
Oh crap, it's on! The agribusiness lobby vs the oil lobby!  No matter who wins we lose.

giftedmadness: I remember about 6 months ago there was a thread about ethanol and a few libs on here were claiming it it was never about helping the environment.  Where is whidbey for this thread? lol


Was it about cellulose ethanol or corn ethanol?

Using something like switchgrass or, as Moonfisher said, the inedible parts of corn would be an effective way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions without being wasteful.  We're using corn (including the edible parts) because it's subsidized to the hilt and we have more corn than places we can stick it.  That's just a giant waste of farmland and taxpayer dollars.  We're also raising the price of corn, despite record harvests, because we've got food demand AND energy demand.
 
2013-05-08 06:27:11 AM

Archie Goodwin: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?

Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.


Lead was freaking awesome for everything. That paint won't come off, the gas won't go bad, and your car's radiator will never break.

Why did people have to CONSUME it?
 
2013-05-08 06:29:41 AM

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.


Unpossible. Petro-products are literally everywhere, from the meds you take before going to bed to the alarm clock that wakes you up in the morning. Crazy, really, if you think about how ubiquitous oil products are in modern life.

However, assuming one just wants to get rid of the daily shiatty exhaust belching nuisance/health hazard/waste that are gas combustion based automotive engines, then yeah, what RedPheonix said, better batteries (lots o' petro used in making those too btw).
 
2013-05-08 06:29:44 AM
TFA: Ethanol supporters..claim,,Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.

Seems like an easy claim to verify.
 
2013-05-08 06:31:29 AM

mike_d85: Archie Goodwin: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?

Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.

Lead was freaking awesome for everything. That paint won't come off, the gas won't go bad, and your car's radiator will never break.

Why did people have to CONSUME it?


Of course, all of that lead also wound up giving us horribly crime ridden cities too, but surely that's a small price to pay for durability.
 
2013-05-08 06:38:44 AM
I'm pretty sure we went through this exact same schpiel with the E-10 blend, and everything worked out fine.  As a matter of fact,  I know we went through this same schpiel and everything is fine.
 
2013-05-08 06:38:56 AM

rynthetyn: remus: log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?

That using corn for this is a good idea.  It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest.  They use sugar cane in South America.  There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.

It's been a while since I read up on it, but I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol.


Yeah, and the corn lobby (Monsanto and Cargill) is 100% against legalizing hemp. Same reasons as Henri DuPont, W.R.Hearst and Adolph Coors had in demanding hemp be outlawed back in the late 19teens and early 1920s except for a different plant. Those guys had gigantic investments in timber, and hemp was the only real competition for the industrial fiber market.

Sure, the majority of the testimony in Congress at the time was about how legal hemp caused white women to want to sleep with negro jazz musicians and how it turned young people into slavering, murderous monsters, not to mention luring them into communism. The corn lobby has the same motivations, and actually uses the same propaganda as those old SilverShirt assholes did back then.
 
2013-05-08 06:41:33 AM
jaytkay ,
TFA: Ethanol supporters..claim,,Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.
Seems like an easy claim to verify.


I believe that engines there, at least sometimes, are made to cope with that.
Also this is based from sugar cane, is sugar cane ethanol same as corn ethanol?
 
2013-05-08 06:43:44 AM

log_jammin: agree or disagree, that isn't exactly what anyone would call "fraud".


Fraud: intentional deception for personal gain.

If the fraudulent person takes away one of three things from you:

1. Money.

2. Something else of value, real estate, jewelry, etc.

3. A legal right.

So the ethanol suppliers are taking your money and not giving you the same value back, all while saying that it's a good thing..

Compare gasoline's energy density to ethanol's. It is fraud.
 
2013-05-08 06:44:04 AM

Enemabag Jones: jaytkay ,
TFA: Ethanol supporters..claim,,Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.
Seems like an easy claim to verify.

I believe that engines there, at least sometimes, are made to cope with that.
Also this is based from sugar cane, is sugar cane ethanol same as corn ethanol?


You're farking with us, right?

Doesn't matter what plant it came from, you're still breaking it down to the same chemical formula -- Ethanol.
 
2013-05-08 06:44:59 AM
"We just feel that it is not safe for the consumer. It's not safe for their engines,"

And we all know a gut feeling is better than actual, testable evidence.
 
2013-05-08 06:48:07 AM
Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.
 
2013-05-08 06:48:39 AM

Third Day Mark: I'm pretty sure we went through this exact same schpiel with the E-10 blend, and everything worked out fine.  As a matter of fact,  I know we went through this same schpiel and everything is fine.


You mean, car manufacturers have known for decades that ethanol gets added to fuels and have made allowances for it? WAKE UP SHEEPLE! OBAMA MUST BE STOPPED!
 
2013-05-08 06:50:27 AM
The guberment did something similar with diesels a few vyears back. You know mandating the redcution of emissions that actually make diesels more complex due to the addition of DEF systems & other emmissions crap. All I can say is here we go again.

The new truck emissions systems on hevy diesels are nothing but heartburn. My work truck (a 2013 Internatioal with roghly 36,000 miles on it) h as already had the EGR coolor replaced as well as other issues with the system.
 
2013-05-08 06:50:58 AM
We went through this last year in Germany.  Lots of political theater and fanfare.  When the stuff hit the pumps, German drivers just refused to buy it leaving oceans of it stuck in the supply lines.  Consumers just switched to the higher octane premium-unleaded which of course costs them more and makes a lot more profits for the oil companies who own the filling stations.
 
2013-05-08 06:51:49 AM

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.



You think big corn is a "liberal" lobby group?
 
2013-05-08 06:51:51 AM
Switched to non ethanol gas for all my small engines on weed whip, chain saws, lawn mowers. And my boats.

http://www.pure-gas.org
 
2013-05-08 06:52:32 AM

Hopman: The guberment did something similar with diesels a few vyears back. You know mandating the redcution of emissions that actually make diesels more complex due to the addition of DEF systems & other emmissions crap. All I can say is here we go again.

The new truck emissions systems on hevy diesels are nothing but heartburn. My work truck (a 2013 Internatioal with roghly 36,000 miles on it) h as already had the EGR coolor replaced as well as other issues with the system.


And my work truck (97 and 99 International 4300's with 486,xxx and 387,xxx miles respectively) have BOTH, been using the diesel blends, with 0 problems what so ever.

You just got a lemon.
 
2013-05-08 06:54:16 AM
Oil companies say

And that's all you need to know.
 
2013-05-08 06:54:49 AM

Third Day Mark: Hopman: The guberment did something similar with diesels a few vyears back. You know mandating the redcution of emissions that actually make diesels more complex due to the addition of DEF systems & other emmissions crap. All I can say is here we go again.

The new truck emissions systems on hevy diesels are nothing but heartburn. My work truck (a 2013 Internatioal with roghly 36,000 miles on it) h as already had the EGR coolor replaced as well as other issues with the system.

And my work truck (97 and 99 International 4300's with 486,xxx and 387,xxx miles respectively) have BOTH, been using the diesel blends, with 0 problems what so ever.

You just got a lemon.


Internationals really strike me as a piece of crap lately. Our third ambulance is an International with a Type I body mounted on it. 6 months old, 20k miles, and it's been through two head gaskets and a complete revamp of the fuel system in that time, and a rear axle.
 
2013-05-08 06:54:55 AM

abhorrent1: Oil companies say

And that's all you need to know.


Quoted For MF'in Truth.
 
2013-05-08 06:57:32 AM

hardinparamedic: Third Day Mark: Hopman: The guberment did something similar with diesels a few vyears back. You know mandating the redcution of emissions that actually make diesels more complex due to the addition of DEF systems & other emmissions crap. All I can say is here we go again.

The new truck emissions systems on hevy diesels are nothing but heartburn. My work truck (a 2013 Internatioal with roghly 36,000 miles on it) h as already had the EGR coolor replaced as well as other issues with the system.

And my work truck (97 and 99 International 4300's with 486,xxx and 387,xxx miles respectively) have BOTH, been using the diesel blends, with 0 problems what so ever.

You just got a lemon.

Internationals really strike me as a piece of crap lately. Our third ambulance is an International with a Type I body mounted on it. 6 months old, 20k miles, and it's been through two head gaskets and a complete revamp of the fuel system in that time, and a rear axle.


One of mine is cursed.  The 99 is the one with lesser miles, its had SIXTEEN different injectors put into it (It only has 6 in the engine), TWO complete rebuilds, a transmission rebuild, a new driveshaft, 3 new batteries, 2 High Pressure Pumps, the works.  Pretty much anything that could have been replaced, has.

The other one is a beast.  Its a 6 speed standard and I use it every day for about 250 miles.  I think we've put a new water pump in it, and thats about it.   

/Nephew named it Spike.
//Great name for that truck.
 
2013-05-08 06:59:42 AM

Southern100: automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.


Nicely done! I wondered why my car turned left when I steered right...
 
2013-05-08 07:00:40 AM

Southern100: automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.


Nicely done! I been wondering why my car just does what it wants...
 
2013-05-08 07:04:31 AM

automaticman: Southern100: automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.

Nicely done! I been wondering why my car just does what it wants...


FML... smartphone post fail.
 
2013-05-08 07:06:06 AM
Honest Bender

Don't we use some blend of ethanol in California?

You just got off of the "special" MTBE blend the CA democrats forced on people

The party that cares about the environment...
...and clean drinking water
 
2013-05-08 07:06:14 AM

priapic_abandon: So the ethanol suppliers are taking your money and not giving you the same value back, all while saying that it's a good thing..


you just described every transaction ever.
 
2013-05-08 07:08:34 AM
There is one true statement in all of this.

If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.

The more alcohol added to the fuel, the lower the octane.  Subby is a retard.
 
2013-05-08 07:13:22 AM

prjindigo: There is one true statement in all of this.

If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.

The more alcohol added to the fuel, the lower the octane.  Subby is a retard.


Is that a mistake that people actually make? Back when I had my diesel Beetle I never even came close to accidentally putting gasoline in it.

/loved that car, definitely buying another diesel when I can't get away with just getting around on 2 wheels anymore
 
2013-05-08 07:13:46 AM
Not reading this Faux Noise article.  Still on this one, I cannot support Obama.  This is nothing but the corn lobby's wet dream but no good for anyone else.  Using corn for this only serves to jack up the price.  That not only effects corn prices(very bad for Mexican families especially) but also stuff like beef too(they generally feed cows corn).  If this where switchblade grass ethanol, that might be another matter.  Lets subsidize THAT and not corn (while also mandating its use).

As for supposedly lowering our CO2 emissions, being energy independent. or whatever, I would point out the amount of energy that goes into agriculture.  I would also point out that Ethanol has less energy per volume than gasoline.  So while you might even get your E85 cheaper than gas (partially thanks to corn subsidies), you get dramatically less MPG and need to buy more fuel to travel the same distance.  Also, your engine will effectively be less powerful in case that is important to you.

This E15 mandate... you are not helping Mr Obama.  Well helping corn farmers but not much else.  The better thing to do would be to treat the corn lobby like you do the oil lobby.  Screw them.
 
2013-05-08 07:15:05 AM
Big oil vs. Monsanto---no matter who wins, we lose.

/at least GMO corn ethanol is probably not gonna give your car cancer =P
 
2013-05-08 07:16:29 AM
When I was 16 I built a "hypermileage vehicle" for a SAE contest.  Our car was similar to the Edison2 linked above, and made 488 mpg on 85% Ethanol.  This is impressive, but it is still the wrong fuel for the future.

1 - Diesel fuels - the Diesel engine was designed to run on almost any combustible liquid, and can run on recycled oils, or fermented algae.
2 - Hydrogen - massively available, emissions are water, and it's already been done.

Pick one.

Batteries are terrible, they do a horrible job storing power and they get that power from (at least right now) the burning of OTHER fossil fuels.  Never mind their limited range and immense charge times.
Ethanol additives only reduce the power output from an otherwise fine engine, and older engine components and some non-OEM parts cannot accept ethanol.  Buying new cars is NOT environmentally friendly.  Look at the cash for clunkers disaster.  And no matter how much you want ethanol to exist in fuels, people are still going to want to own and drive their classic cars.
 
2013-05-08 07:17:12 AM

prjindigo: If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.


If you put diesel into a gas engine you will spend 80% of your carefully planned to trip to London during Christmas, on the side of the M5, eating peanuts and candy bars and reading shiatty porno mags while waiting for a tow to arrive.

trust me. I know.
 
2013-05-08 07:17:27 AM

unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry


wrong. they are only partially owned by big oil.
big pharma,big banks and any other kind of big money also control them.
 
2013-05-08 07:18:20 AM

Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.


It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.
 
2013-05-08 07:18:22 AM
Oh my gawd..... oh, it's fox. Never mind.
 
2013-05-08 07:19:10 AM

hardinparamedic: [beestonia.files.wordpress.com image 400x574]


Girls!! DRINK!!! Feck off!!

/what, no Fr. Jack?
 
2013-05-08 07:19:39 AM

mike_d85: Archie Goodwin: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?

Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.

Lead was freaking awesome for everything. That paint won't come off, the gas won't go bad, and your car's radiator will never break.

Why did people have to CONSUME it?


Because it's oh so tasty.
 
2013-05-08 07:19:42 AM
Faux News is retarded, as usual.

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e.  older vehicles, or vehicles still using metal-lined gas tanks) the ethanol can act as a solvent, knocking it lose and running it through your engine and causing mechanical failure or damage. Ethanol has also shown slight potential to be corrosive to aluminum, however most of that extends from the aforementioned fact.

2) Ethanol burns at a higher temperature than typical unleaded gasoline. It also gells at lower temperatures reducing vapor volume- which is why diesel engines (lacking spark plugs for initiation) have some difficulty starting in climates with lower pressure and lower temperature (such as in the Rocky Mountains). The 'wait to start' is from a glowplug using battery power to warm the air within the cylinders to counteract this. Most unleaded vehicles don't have to worry because of the use of spark plugs.

3) Reduction in fuel economy.

Ethanol was never intended to be a permanent solution; just a quick fix to alleviate dependency on foreign oil. Any other questions should be directed to your local mechanic.
 
2013-05-08 07:21:07 AM

scumshine: /what, no Fr. Jack?


He was devoured by those evil satanic flesh eating immigrants at the BBC!
 
2013-05-08 07:21:40 AM
Just buy your gas in China when you pop over for your light bulbs.
 
2013-05-08 07:21:52 AM

Lando Lincoln: What would the world be like if all passenger cars just up and disappeared?


I vote we find out. I loved taking the train back when I could.
 
2013-05-08 07:23:27 AM

Hobodeluxe: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

wrong. they are only partially owned by big oil.
big pharma,big banks and any other kind of big money also control them.


Even if you complain about big oil owning them, this is a case of broken clock syndrome.  The time is now.  Of course I am assuming since I did not want to read the Faux News article.  There probably is some derp in there.  But this E15 is a bad idea.  We should do away with E10 at least until we switch to switchblade grass ethanol.
 
2013-05-08 07:24:06 AM

log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?


That it helps save the planet
 
2013-05-08 07:26:22 AM
They should be using that corn to make cows fatter.    Why are we not all driving cars powered by natural gas yet?
 
2013-05-08 07:26:30 AM

prjindigo: There is one true statement in all of this.

If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.

The more alcohol added to the fuel, the lower the octane.  Subby is a retard.


I'd like to find a passenger vehicle with a fuel delivery system worth $10,000 though I suspect you were just throwing that number out for effect.
You may want to rethink the idea of adding alcohol won't bump octane. It does and I'm not going to debate it. I'll just leave this LINK right here.
 
2013-05-08 07:28:04 AM

Southern100: automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-08 07:28:34 AM
Baumli

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e. older vehicles
And what segment of society is likely to drive "older vehicles"


Once again looking out for the poor. The party of compassion speaks. And like always, says "Fark the poor".
 
2013-05-08 07:29:51 AM
We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?
 
2013-05-08 07:30:00 AM
Ethanol mixes with water.
Breaks down quicker than gas.
Is a solvent to petrochemical (plastic) parts
Lower power than straight gas.

/Marine Mechanics hate the stuff.
//Even the ones that watch MSNBC.
 
2013-05-08 07:30:09 AM
Stand back, I'm going to do math! Here in Tulsa, we still have pure gas available at the pump. When I tank up for a trip to Texas, I get around 10% farther on a tank than I do after I fill up with E-10 for the return trip. Since the pure gas is 10 cents higher per gallon ($3.39 v. $3.29), I get 10% more MPG for 3% higher cost.
 
2013-05-08 07:30:20 AM

OnlyM3: And what segment of society is likely to drive "older vehicles"


The same segment of society likely to pass around "FW:FW:FW:OBAMA BENGHAZI DEATH PANEL" emails and to post on FARK about how the Gubament is going to march into their house and beat them for their guns?
 
2013-05-08 07:30:20 AM
The EPA says it is safe for cars built after 2001, but acknowledges it is inappropriate for boats and small motors, including lawnmowers and chainsaws.

Great, so where the fark am I supposed to get small engine fuel then, once this law goes into effect? I can't find regular gas anywhere, as everything is already 10% ethanol. And I sure as hell don't want to have to drive 45 minutes just to get some non weed wacker wrecking fuel.
 
2013-05-08 07:30:52 AM

OnlyM3: Baumli

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e. older vehicles And what segment of society is likely to drive "older vehicles"


Once again looking out for the poor. The party of compassion speaks. And like always, says "Fark the poor".


I agree with you, we need to address income inequality.
 
2013-05-08 07:32:27 AM

MythDragon: The EPA says it is safe for cars built after 2001, but acknowledges it is inappropriate for boats and small motors, including lawnmowers and chainsaws.

Great, so where the fark am I supposed to get small engine fuel then, once this law goes into effect? I can't find regular gas anywhere, as everything is already 10% ethanol. And I sure as hell don't want to have to drive 45 minutes just to get some non weed wacker wrecking fuel.


If you live near a body of water "marine fuel" is the thing to use for your small engines.
 
2013-05-08 07:33:13 AM
HotWingConspiracy: ]  I agree with you, we need to address income inequality.

That sound you heard was his head asploading knowing he walked into that comment.
 
2013-05-08 07:34:06 AM

HotWingConspiracy: OnlyM3: Baumli

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e. older vehicles And what segment of society is likely to drive "older vehicles"


Once again looking out for the poor. The party of compassion speaks. And like always, says "Fark the poor".

I agree with you, we need to address income inequality.


nice
 
2013-05-08 07:37:09 AM
I try not to use ethanol at all. There area few stations around  - BP, mostly - that don't use ethanol.  I have an older car from 1966.
 
2013-05-08 07:37:46 AM

bk3k: Not reading this Faux Noise article.  Still on this one, I cannot support Obama.


You should read it.  I thought it was odd that Obama could mandate fuel requirements himself. That's because he can't.  The article says nothing about Obama.

Headline trolling - the best kind of trolling.
 
2013-05-08 07:38:11 AM

stirfrybry: log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?

That it helps save the planet


THIS.  Only without the saving the planet part.  Because it doesn't do that.

Talk about ethanol that is not corn based and you might be onto something there.  Better yet, stop talking internal combustion engines entirely!
 
2013-05-08 07:39:29 AM

runescorpio: Day_Old_Dutchie: E-85, the Ethanol Queen laughs at your unfounded fears.

While she changes her fuel filter every 5-10k. Shop I go to tested an ethanol car for 5k and pulled the brand new filter and cut it open and compsred it to others. 5k and it was gummed with chunks of stuff and had this greenish tint.


I've owned an E85 Flex Fuel vehicle for nearly six years and have never had a problem with the fuel system.

/transmission's another matter altogether
//just laid down $700 to replace the old one
///farkin' Dodge
 
2013-05-08 07:42:54 AM
The only farking reason this works in Brazil is because they grow sugar cane. It's efficient. Sugar-> alcohol works. Corn -> sugar -> alcohol is subsidized failure.
 
2013-05-08 07:43:50 AM

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


The ethanol is the corrosive agent. It's nasty stuff. Refiners love it though...because of the subsidies it's cheaper than making gasoline.
 
2013-05-08 07:44:52 AM

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


We don't know what it is and it's because of a gub'mint mandate so it must be some sort of mind contro chemical
 
2013-05-08 07:45:24 AM

swahnhennessy: Replace Iowa as the first primary state. Problem solved.


Agreed.
Ethanol is all about politics, not the environment.
 
2013-05-08 07:46:06 AM

Enemabag Jones: Still probably has more to do with ADM.

 
2013-05-08 07:46:09 AM
I think the corn lobby makes the gun lobby look like amateurs.

Nat gas is the best transportation fuel right now and should be used as a bridge fuel until other technologies mature.
 
2013-05-08 07:48:45 AM
'Merica!!!! Wooooo, racin'!

www4.pictures.zimbio.com
 
2013-05-08 07:51:40 AM

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.


Yes, it's liberals that have a problem with science. Just tell yourself that.
 
2013-05-08 07:54:01 AM

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?



Salt.

You live near the ocean. Moisture got into your tank. The alcohol aided in drying that moisture as the gas sat. Happens with regular gas too, only not at as fast a pace, and with more sludgy results.
 
2013-05-08 07:55:41 AM

log_jammin: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/four-t h ings-to-know-about-e15-15096134

All cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components.

...

But the main issue is whether or not your vehicle will be covered under warranty for any damage caused by E15 usage, and in many cases the answer is no. GM and Ford have certified their own vehicles starting with the 2012 and 2013 model years, respectively, so some brand-new cars will have no trouble at all.

So in short, buy a new car if you want us to honor the warranty, otherwise we will blame any problem you have on E15, forcing you to eat the cost yourself.


So it sounds like the government wants us to buy new products to use the new gas blend.  You think they want us to be broke or something?
 
2013-05-08 07:58:57 AM
I work for an automaker (not big 3) in their R&D division. If you run E85 ethanol blend through your vehicle that is not specifically made to handle E85 it will corrode everything that comes into contact with the fuel or the vapors of said fuel. It is a bad idea to run this stuff through any non E85 car you plan to keep for any length of time. There will be breakdowns of the vehicle, but it will be after the warranty is done, or they have the sign that says the vehicle warranty is voided if you use this stuff. The cost to replace the parts? Thousands of dollars.

On a side note - you may purchase this stuff thinking that you save money per gallon of fuel, but ethanol does not burn as efficiently as fuel with less ethanol blend thereby reducing mpg in your vehicle and canceling out any perceived savings.

your welcome
 
2013-05-08 07:59:56 AM
God dammit. I have t deal with this shiat here in Thailand and I don't want to deal with it when I finally move back home.
I like classic cars and bikes, these don't like E85...
 
2013-05-08 08:00:34 AM

hardinparamedic: Dufus: went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?

You experienced what is known as fuel gelling. That white, fibrous sludge was Paraffin.


If it was deisel, yes. I'm under the impression this was E15/10 seeing as this is an E15/10 thread....
 
2013-05-08 08:00:55 AM

RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


yeah, was going to say the price of electric cars isn't really all that high anymore

the issue is more function, until batteries can get us at least as far as a typical gas tank, then people are going to keep looking for more fuel efficient cars over electric cars, also not many people like being early adopters and footing bigger costs for repair
 
2013-05-08 08:01:06 AM

DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?



Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.
 
2013-05-08 08:01:16 AM

digistil: RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

Isn't there some group that's successfully built a energy storage device that fills like a transistor, but discharges like normal battery?


Wasn't that in a Batman movie?
 
2013-05-08 08:02:58 AM

positiveguy: I work for an automaker (not big 3) in their R&D division. If you run E85 ethanol blend through your vehicle that is not specifically made to handle E85 it will corrode everything that comes into contact with the fuel or the vapors of said fuel. It is a bad idea to run this stuff through any non E85 car you plan to keep for any length of time. There will be breakdowns of the vehicle, but it will be after the warranty is done, or they have the sign that says the vehicle warranty is voided if you use this stuff. The cost to replace the parts? Thousands of dollars.

On a side note - you may purchase this stuff thinking that you save money per gallon of fuel, but ethanol does not burn as efficiently as fuel with less ethanol blend thereby reducing mpg in your vehicle and canceling out any perceived savings.


your welcome


I said "your" because I wanted the grammar police to actually read the comment...

You're welcome again.
 
2013-05-08 08:03:04 AM
The EPA says it is safe for cars built after 2001

Groovy.  My beater pickemup-truck is a '97, and I can't afford a new(er) vehicle.  THANKS, OBAMA

(I'll have to ask my mechanic what additives I can use to counter-act all that ethanol)

Pick: Switched to non ethanol gas for all my small engines on weed whip, chain saws, lawn mowers. And my boats.

http://www.pure-gas.org


They used to have gas stations in Vermont that sold non-ethanol gas...then they had to switch because there were no more suppliers in the area.  Sucks ass.  I got FANTASTIC mileage on non-ethanol gas.  38+ MPG as opposed to 32 MPG on E10.
 
2013-05-08 08:04:51 AM
I don't know why E15 would be such a problem. Illinois, particularly Chicago, switches to a high ethanol blend every summer with no ill effects. I'm not sure what the exact percentage of ethanol is in the blend, but it is higher than the national average.
 
2013-05-08 08:04:59 AM
I don't take science advice from a news source that doesn't accept evolution as scientific fact.
 
2013-05-08 08:05:34 AM
The amount of bull regarding the problems with ethanol are astounding.  So many in the pay of the big oil companies and so many incompetent mechanics who denounce ethanol either for political reasons or profit.

So many down right lies.

We've used it for years in mowers, cars, tractors, trucks and chain saws without any problems.  I have a couple of vehicles that have run 150,000 miles with no fuel related problems.  I've taken 5000 mile trips and alternated between ethanol blended fuel and regular because people claimed better mileage.  Wasn't true.  Mileage remained the same, probably because ethanol reduced the "ping" factor that lower octane fuel caused.
 
2013-05-08 08:06:52 AM
So remember. Break out your horse and carriage for that yearly beach trip
 
2013-05-08 08:07:04 AM

remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two Japanese companies that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?


They are huge multinational companies with the potential to owe billions in taxes.  They build factories in the US based solely on anti-union labor laws and massive tax giveaways.  What could they possibly be but sympathetic to the vast right wing status quo?
 
2013-05-08 08:07:37 AM
Obama....is there anything he can do...right.
 
2013-05-08 08:07:42 AM
Well I was certainly hoping for something to make my fuel economy worse and not bring my fuel prices down.

It may be time to SC the jeep and run E85.
 
2013-05-08 08:09:34 AM
I moved to Europe where we live in a rainy fog all winter--- and ended up with water in my gas tank for the first time in my life--- because we do NOT use ethanol here.

I could really give a furk, I now run diesel.  It is cheaper and more efficient, and with a turbo, plenty of low end power.  The issue is the govt. here promoted diesel as being environmentally friendly, and now we all run diesels and it creates local pollution (which is allegedly better than causing climate change).
 
2013-05-08 08:09:44 AM

Baumli: Faux News is retarded, as usual.

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e.  older vehicles, or vehicles still using metal-lined gas tanks) the ethanol can act as a solvent, knocking it lose and running it through your engine and causing mechanical failure or damage. Ethanol has also shown slight potential to be corrosive to aluminum, however most of that extends from the aforementioned fact.

2) Ethanol burns at a higher temperature than typical unleaded gasoline. It also gells at lower temperatures reducing vapor volume- which is why diesel engines (lacking spark plugs for initiation) have some difficulty starting in climates with lower pressure and lower temperature (such as in the Rocky Mountains). The 'wait to start' is from a glowplug using battery power to warm the air within the cylinders to counteract this. Most unleaded vehicles don't have to worry because of the use of spark plugs.

3) Reduction in fuel economy.

Ethanol was never intended to be a permanent solution; just a quick fix to alleviate dependency on foreign oil. Any other questions should be directed to your local mechanic.


That's not an exhaustive list.  I have a current-model performance-oriented car that is commonly converted to run on E85 because of the octane benefit it provides.  For a car that can use that additional octane, it's similar to running on a low 100 octane level race fuel that would cost several times more per gallon.

It presents a variety of problems, though.  First, it turns the stock fuel filter into a gummy mess that eventually starves your engine of fuel.  The ethanol essentially dissolves the filter and subsequently ruins your fuel pump.  Once you've replaced that, you notice that you'll need more powerful injectors to atomize the E85, as the stock injectors struggle to keep up.  Finally, your car likely needs to be tuned to run on this new fuel.  If it's not, there's a chance you're wasting fuel and damaging your catalytic converter by expelling unburnt fuel through the exhaust.

Keep in mind, these are a few of the issues running E85 on a brand new car.  I can't imagine what E15 would be like, especially on older cars where the fuel lines and other components are also in danger.
 
2013-05-08 08:10:09 AM

digistil: RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

Isn't there some group that's successfully built a energy storage device that fills like a transistor, but discharges like normal battery?


Um, that would be a capacitor.

The only difference between a capacitor and a battery (electrically speaking) is the internal resistance and the energy density.

The inherent flaw in a megacapacitor is that while a rechargable battery converts input electricity into a chemical reaction, the capacitor just holds electrons back. All of that energy can me released in microseconds if you get a short, crush the canister, etc.

If you are holding a car trip's worth of energy, that would probably leave a crater.
 
2013-05-08 08:14:37 AM
Ethanol is farking stupid.  It has been from the beginning.

Setting aside the fuel line corrosion and engine deterioration issues, it is just plain inefficient.  There is less energy in a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gasoline, and it costs more.  So you're paying more and getting less, and that's someone supposed to be a good thing?
 
2013-05-08 08:18:41 AM

CPennypacker: I don't take science advice from a news source that doesn't accept evolution as scientific fact.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
2013-05-08 08:21:27 AM
I have had my car for 12 out of its 13 years and I remember when $20 would fill the tank, now its $40.

I do worry what other components I'm going to need to replace to keep her running on this new gasoline.

I don't think I should be forced to buy a new car when mine suits my needs and has fewer problems than most of the newer cars on the road. Very few electronic components to break. Except the blasted windows....

It is fraud if the gas is sold at the same (or higher) price to the consumer when it provides less energy. Ripping off the consumer as usual.
 
2013-05-08 08:21:44 AM

xanadian: THANKS, OBAMA


hahahais this for real
 
2013-05-08 08:22:03 AM

Evil Twin Skippy: digistil: RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

Isn't there some group that's successfully built a energy storage device that fills like a transistor, but discharges like normal battery?

Um, that would be a capacitor.

The only difference between a capacitor and a battery (electrically speaking) is the internal resistance and the energy density.

The inherent flaw in a megacapacitor is that while a rechargable battery converts input electricity into a chemical reaction, the capacitor just holds electrons back. All of that energy can me released in microseconds if you get a short, crush the canister, etc.

If you are holding a car trip's worth of energy, that would probably leave a crater.


That sure would make road trips exciting however... Pinto 2!
 
2013-05-08 08:23:59 AM

GizmoToy: Baumli: Faux News is retarded, as usual.

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e.  older vehicles, or vehicles still using metal-lined gas tanks) the ethanol can act as a solvent, knocking it lose and running it through your engine and causing mechanical failure or damage. Ethanol has also shown slight potential to be corrosive to aluminum, however most of that extends from the aforementioned fact.

2) Ethanol burns at a higher temperature than typical unleaded gasoline. It also gells at lower temperatures reducing vapor volume- which is why diesel engines (lacking spark plugs for initiation) have some difficulty starting in climates with lower pressure and lower temperature (such as in the Rocky Mountains). The 'wait to start' is from a glowplug using battery power to warm the air within the cylinders to counteract this. Most unleaded vehicles don't have to worry because of the use of spark plugs.

3) Reduction in fuel economy.

Ethanol was never intended to be a permanent solution; just a quick fix to alleviate dependency on foreign oil. Any other questions should be directed to your local mechanic.

That's not an exhaustive list.  I have a current-model performance-oriented car that is commonly converted to run on E85 because of the octane benefit it provides.  For a car that can use that additional octane, it's similar to running on a low 100 octane level race fuel that would cost several times more per gallon.

It presents a variety of problems, though.  First, it turns the stock fuel filter into a gummy mess that eventually starves your engine of fuel.  The ethanol essentially dissolves the filter and subsequently ruins your fuel pump.  Once you've replaced that, you notice that you'll need more powerful injectors to atomize the E85, as the stock injectors struggle to keep up.  Finally, your car likely needs to be tuned to run on this new fuel.  If it's not, there's a chance you're wasting fuel and d ...


Looots of this.  If you want me to run Esomething, build me a system to detect the fuel type or let me easily re-map the system for the fuel available.  I have a turbo, let me boost the hell out of it and actually *use* the ethanol and I'll be happy.

Don't water down my fuel and tell me it's better for me.
 
2013-05-08 08:25:29 AM

RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


this is a huge issue - lithium is mined on one side of the world, shipped to the other side for processing and then shipped to us in the US.  Eco Friendly?  mebbe not.

If you're looking for a growth business begin a carburetor shop.  Only deal with landscaping dealers.  You'll be changing fuel lines and getting gunk out of carburetors 12 hours a day.
I never realized just how many small engines I owned until I set out to change the fuel lines and filters in all of them.

ALSO-  http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=OR  In most states there are places that sell "Off Road" fuel that has no Alcohol in it.  It's more costly than that usual but how long do you want that $7k John Deere in the shop?  I have prior to now contacted Sunoco and was informed that it would be perfectly fine to run racing fuel in small engines so if you have no off road fuel available but there is a race track near by you can buy some alcohol free fuel there.

AND if you store a machine for over 90 days I fully recommend Star Tron fuel stabilizer -Not my employer-  I hit the key after treating a tank of fuel and running treated fuel into the injectors TWO YEARS ago and it fired immediately last week.  I've had bad experience with Stabil and no experience with Seafoam.  Furthermore-if you are mixing fuel for a 2cycle then always use the mfgr's oil.  Stihl (for example) has compatible stabilizers in the oil meant for mixing so that's covered right there.
As always, YMMV.

Suddenly, turning your lawn into a vegetable garden starts looking viable
 
2013-05-08 08:25:41 AM

Great_Milenko: They are huge multinational companies with the potential to owe billions in taxes. They build factories in the US based solely on anti-union labor laws and massive tax giveaways. What could they possibly be but sympathetic to the vast right wing status quo?


Subaru explicitly stated that using E15 in my 2012 Impreza will void the warranty.  They have one factory in the US, the majority of their cars are made elsewhere.

The current ethanol subsidies are completely and utterly stupid, but politicians have to buy off the mid-western states to win elections and have little incentive to upset the status quo.
 
2013-05-08 08:26:14 AM

Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.


Well are we using those instead of the edible plants?
 
2013-05-08 08:28:00 AM

computerguyUT: Obama....is there anything he can do...right.


I invented a car that ran on snot, and he went and cured the common cold.
 
2013-05-08 08:28:32 AM
"We just feel that it is not safe for the consumer. It's not safe for their engines," said Charles Drevna, executive president of American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers.

I thought petroleum refining was a science. Since when is it good policy to make decisions based on feelings?
 
2013-05-08 08:32:22 AM

Marcintosh: ALSO-  http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=OR  In most states there are places that sell "Off Road" fuel that has no Alcohol in it.  It's more costly than that usual but how long do you want that $7k John Deere in the shop?  I have prior to now contacted Sunoco and was informed that it would be perfectly fine to run racing fuel in small engines so if you have no off road fuel available but there is a race track near by you can buy some alcohol free fuel there.


I recommend Sunoco 260 GTX. It's 98 octane and has no ethanol. After cleaning out all the carbs and lines on small equipment around here, filling up with that made them run better than new. I now keep 5-15 gallons on hand at all times, especially since it's stable for a long time.
 
2013-05-08 08:32:55 AM

DubtodaIll: Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.

Well are we using those instead of the edible plants?


We are not, but we really farking should be.
 
2013-05-08 08:33:16 AM

StrangeQ: Ethanol is farking stupid.  It has been from the beginning.

Setting aside the fuel line corrosion and engine deterioration issues, it is just plain inefficient.  There is less energy in a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gasoline, and it costs more.  So you're paying more and getting less, and that's someone somehow supposed to be a good thing?


ftfm
 
2013-05-08 08:33:55 AM
ITT: North Americans are very scared and confused by adopting a practice that has been in use in South American for many years.

If Pablo's 1969 VW bus is working fine I think you guys might be able to figure out how to use it in your 2013 SUVs without the world ending.
 
2013-05-08 08:35:16 AM

Egoy3k: ITT: North Americans are very scared and confused by adopting a practice that has been in use in South American for many years.


You don't appear to know a whole lot about internal combusiton engines and how they have changed thru the years. You should probably keep quiet and try to learn something.
 
2013-05-08 08:35:40 AM

Erebus1954: I think the corn lobby makes the gun lobby look like amateurs.

Nat gas is the best transportation fuel right now and should be used as a bridge fuel until other technologies mature.


That's actually an option in certain South American countries. It's the same engines from the same automakers that we get here in the US too. Slightly different kit in the fuel delivery department, but that's the only difference. Your engine doesn't care what you put in it as long as it explodes nicely when a spark is applied.

The issue with ethanol is mainly the fuel lines and associated seals. If they were not manufactured with ethanol use in mind they may react badly to the mix. This shortens their life and may result in leaks. The good news is that the replacement parts should be ethanol compatible so it's a problem you'll only have once.
 
2013-05-08 08:38:47 AM

Psylence: I recommend Sunoco 260 GTX. It's 98 octane and has no ethanol. After cleaning out all the carbs and lines on small equipment around here, filling up with that made them run better than new. I now keep 5-15 gallons on hand at all times, especially since it's stable for a long time.


You must be running pretty high compression ratios on your lawn mowers and weed whackers if you need 98 octane fuel for them.

Granted higher octane fuel usually has more detergent and stabilizers in it but it still seems like a waste for a small engine. If you are keeping your fuel so long that you need stabilizers in it I would imagine you are buying enough at one time to add your own stabilizer and save a bunch of money.
 
2013-05-08 08:39:59 AM

Psylence: Egoy3k: ITT: North Americans are very scared and confused by adopting a practice that has been in use in South American for many years.

You don't appear to know a whole lot about internal combusiton engines and how they have changed thru the years. You should probably keep quiet and try to learn something.


Says the guy who uses 98 octane fuel in small engines.....
 
2013-05-08 08:42:14 AM
Ethanol does not contain as much energy per unit of volume as gasoline. This is dilution of a superior product with an inferior product for the benefit of makers of the inferior product.
 
2013-05-08 08:43:24 AM
So, has fox news come out against the ridiculous corn subsidies as well? I'm for renewable fuel, but as I'm sure many have said corn ethanol is not it.
 
2013-05-08 08:44:06 AM
thermodynamics? energy density? why should i care when i'm a rich republican lobbyist / congressman / business owner getting a kickback from the corn growers of america? what's best for america, nahlbrah, WHAT'S BEST FOR MY PORTFOLIO! YAY!
 
2013-05-08 08:44:52 AM

log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?


That using ethanol provides any benefits at all.  The canard is that it reduces emissions, but that was just a side effect of the lower energy content per gallon in carbureted cars.  A computer-controlled fuel-injected car will just increase the amount of fuel used to compensate.

The only people who benefit from ethanol use are the ones selling it.
 
2013-05-08 08:45:28 AM
I don't think engine corrosion is really the key flaw when it comes to ethanol.  You can improve the materials of construction to reduce the corrosion to the same levels as you would get with gasoline.  Of course this increases cost, but as the supply of oil drops and/or environmental externalities become clearer, it will become cost competitive.

The real problem comes down to the logistics and the subsequent impact on other markets:

the surface area footprint required per gallon of ethanol is far more than that of the same energy equivalent gallon of oil.  and on top of this, the area needed for ethanol requires fertile land, so it competes heavily with agriculture not only in terms of land area, but water use as well.  now in the USA this may not be as fierce of a competition because we have such a surplus of food and drinking water.  but you can look at other less developed countries and realize that for starters ethanol is not a globally viable or competitive solution.  and this becomes a problem because automakers are global entities, selling their vehicles to all countries, not just ones that can or want to mix large quantities of ethanol in with their conventional fuels.

similar problems apply to algae synthesized biofuels, with the impact being on fresh water supply instead of arable land.

any organic chemists out there know if there is a reasonable process to convert ethanol into the paraffin/olefin subset that composes gasoline?  requires more energy input, but if the ethanol could be made into gasoline molecules 1) similar degree of carbon neutrality is maintained (with the exception of any additional energy input)  2) automakers do not need to further modify engine design, thus ethanol converted to gasoline could be exported to other countries who do not have engine standards requiring design around x% ethanol
 
2013-05-08 08:47:19 AM
Ive had the same problema in my small engines....water pumps,chain saws, chop saws, welding machines, outboard motors, etc.....

Anyone remember the mandated ethanol/oxygenated gas from the 90s that was totally safe for the environment and had a byproduct called MTBE that showed up in peoples drinking water and caused cancer?

Anyone remember how the air at ground zero was safe to breathe?


Fark the EPA. They lie.
 
2013-05-08 08:50:08 AM
Why?  What do we gain as a nation by using that much ethanol and at what cost?
 
2013-05-08 08:51:49 AM
98 octane is the only fuel around with zero ethanol content here. Ergo, if I want my shiat to last more than a season, thats what I have to use. I'd gladly run 89 octane in my lawn equipment and generator if it were available without ethanol.
It's not. I can't.

And getting stranded on your motorcycle miles from home because your carb floats straight up dissolved to mush due to ethanol is not fun at all. I don't recommend it.
 
2013-05-08 08:54:01 AM

vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.


Engine parts aren't the only thing that alcohol can break down...

http://acidcow.com/pics/9109-the-life-of-russian-alcoholics-20-pics. ht ml

http://www.rxlist.com/alcohol_abuse_health_risks_slideshow_pictures/ ar ticle.htm
 
2013-05-08 08:54:41 AM

Coastalgrl: I have had my car for 12 out of its 13 years and I remember when $20 would fill the tank, now its $40.

I do worry what other components I'm going to need to replace to keep her running on this new gasoline.

I don't think I should be forced to buy a new car when mine suits my needs and has fewer problems than most of the newer cars on the road. Very few electronic components to break. Except the blasted windows....

It is fraud if the gas is sold at the same (or higher) price to the consumer when it provides less energy. Ripping off the consumer as usual.


I'm the same.  I drive a 12 year old vehicle that gets the same or better average mileage than the 2012/13 version of it.  Nothing is broken on it, it's paid for of course and I don't particularly want to be forced into buying a newer vehicle that I don't want to have to budget for.  However, I will need to look into this further as I know I've been burning ethanol blend fuel in it for years with no ill effects.  Until I'm sure what exactly this E15 means for me, I'm not running out pricing new cars, nor am I blaming Obama for anything.
 
2013-05-08 08:55:15 AM

Enemabag Jones: I have read studies that by the time the already inefficient corn breads down into ethanol, add in the energy to grow the corn and move it around, you use nearly that much energy as you have created.

Save $.10 on a $3.50 gallon for 3-4mpg less on 10% ethanol, it just isn't worth it.  Might as well build a battleship and blow it up if we want people employed for reasons of employment.   Still probably has more to do with ADM.

Maybe it works for Brazil with sugar cane, but not for corn.


Most of the gas stations around where I live, sell E85. Its normally closer to $1/Gal cheaper. I wish my truck was able to burn it. Especially for long highway drives.
 
2013-05-08 08:55:32 AM

farkmedown: Since when is it good policy to make decisions based on feelings?


if you try to tell me that Jesus didn't ride dinosaurs one more time i'm going to send you to California!
 
2013-05-08 08:56:10 AM
it would make sense for a larger plan to mandate a new fuel which in essence destroys any older cars, making them unusuable and unsellable. then, auto makers bend you over for a new car that can run on the new fuel instead. economy stimulated, new mpg minima reached on all cars.

/you just ignore that oil boom in nodak, ok citizen?
 
2013-05-08 08:56:39 AM

Raharu: CPennypacker: I don't take science advice from a news source that doesn't accept evolution as scientific fact.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


It is for obstructionist, "party before country", refuse to see both sides of the story, reasons exactly like this that conservatives can't sit down at the table with un-budging libs at a table and work out solutions the vast array of problems in our country.
 
2013-05-08 09:00:03 AM

italie: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Salt.

You live near the ocean. Moisture got into your tank. The alcohol aided in drying that moisture as the gas sat. Happens with regular gas too, only not at as fast a pace, and with more sludgy results.


Nope, I am inland well away from salt water. Moisture i can understand, but E10 is no where near as stable as the original formulas using alcohol. Just to be clear, the mix back in the 80's didn't contain lead as someone mentioned; that was after the removal of lead from gas. I stand by my theory that it is some of the additives mandated by bureaucrats rather than chemists.

I do have a station nearby that sells none alcohol fuel and try to buy from there as much as possible, but the owner does not take credit/debit cards and I don't always have cash. I have checked my mileage and I get 10 - 15% better on non-EtOH (that's shorthand for ethanol, BTW) gas.in both my vehicles.I also do my best to use nothing but the non-EtOH stuff in my small engines. Mistakes do happen and sometimes I get some of the E10 in one of the small engines accidentally. That's when I pay for my mistake. replacing fuel lines, carb parts, and downtime makes it very costly.
 
2013-05-08 09:01:03 AM

Outlaw2097: it would make sense for a larger plan to mandate a new fuel which in essence destroys any older cars, making them unusuable and unsellable. then, auto makers bend you over for a new car that can run on the new fuel instead. economy stimulated, new mpg minima reached on all cars.

/you just ignore that oil boom in nodak, ok citizen?


Cash for clunkers was such a fiscally sound program.....
 
2013-05-08 09:02:32 AM
I'm still waiting to see photos of that giant platinum coin!
 
2013-05-08 09:07:21 AM
DNRTFA, because reading an article that is tailored to make Obama look bad on a Fox News website is just as pointless as reading an article that tries to defame the NRA on Slate or Puffhost.
 
2013-05-08 09:07:29 AM
It's so annoying to bring a chainsaw in on a refund period they always go with the excuse that the gas is farking up the engine. This type of gas has been around now for a long time, why can't they just make an engine that doesn't suck. I don't know what parallel universe these companies exist where you don't have to address changing needs for your product.
 
2013-05-08 09:07:51 AM

chocolate covered poop: I don't think engine corrosion is really the key flaw when it comes to ethanol.  You can improve the materials of construction to reduce the corrosion to the same levels as you would get with gasoline.  Of course this increases cost, but as the supply of oil drops and/or environmental externalities become clearer, it will become cost competitive.

The real problem comes down to the logistics and the subsequent impact on other markets:

the surface area footprint required per gallon of ethanol is far more than that of the same energy equivalent gallon of oil.  and on top of this, the area needed for ethanol requires fertile land, so it competes heavily with agriculture not only in terms of land area, but water use as well.  now in the USA this may not be as fierce of a competition because we have such a surplus of food and drinking water.  but you can look at other less developed countries and realize that for starters ethanol is not a globally viable or competitive solution.  and this becomes a problem because automakers are global entities, selling their vehicles to all countries, not just ones that can or want to mix large quantities of ethanol in with their conventional fuels.

similar problems apply to algae synthesized biofuels, with the impact being on fresh water supply instead of arable land.

any organic chemists out there know if there is a reasonable process to convert ethanol into the paraffin/olefin subset that composes gasoline?  requires more energy input, but if the ethanol could be made into gasoline molecules 1) similar degree of carbon neutrality is maintained (with the exception of any additional energy input)  2) automakers do not need to further modify engine design, thus ethanol converted to gasoline could be exported to other countries who do not have engine standards requiring design around x% ethanol


We should just be burning vegetable oil directly.  Doesn't take much processing to extract vegetable oil and an engine that burns that is also not a big deal.
 
2013-05-08 09:09:41 AM

mrshowrules: chocolate covered poop: I don't think engine corrosion is really the key flaw when it comes to ethanol.  You can improve the materials of construction to reduce the corrosion to the same levels as you would get with gasoline.  Of course this increases cost, but as the supply of oil drops and/or environmental externalities become clearer, it will become cost competitive.

The real problem comes down to the logistics and the subsequent impact on other markets:

the surface area footprint required per gallon of ethanol is far more than that of the same energy equivalent gallon of oil.  and on top of this, the area needed for ethanol requires fertile land, so it competes heavily with agriculture not only in terms of land area, but water use as well.  now in the USA this may not be as fierce of a competition because we have such a surplus of food and drinking water.  but you can look at other less developed countries and realize that for starters ethanol is not a globally viable or competitive solution.  and this becomes a problem because automakers are global entities, selling their vehicles to all countries, not just ones that can or want to mix large quantities of ethanol in with their conventional fuels.

similar problems apply to algae synthesized biofuels, with the impact being on fresh water supply instead of arable land.

any organic chemists out there know if there is a reasonable process to convert ethanol into the paraffin/olefin subset that composes gasoline?  requires more energy input, but if the ethanol could be made into gasoline molecules 1) similar degree of carbon neutrality is maintained (with the exception of any additional energy input)  2) automakers do not need to further modify engine design, thus ethanol converted to gasoline could be exported to other countries who do not have engine standards requiring design around x% ethanol

We should just be burning vegetable oil directly.  Doesn't take much processing to extract vegetable oil and an engin ...


Which is exactly what Rudolf Diesel envisioned when he invented his engine. It was MADE to run on peanut oil...
 
2013-05-08 09:10:26 AM
I'm so sick of ethanol.  I'm not going to buy a fancy dancy new vehicle that is 100% compatible anytime soon and it causes a noticeable loss of mpg in the vehicles I do drive.  Which it does in any vehicle, compatible or not, which causes one to need to purchase more fuel to go the same number of miles.

We'd be better off mandating a dual fuel system of gas/compressed natural gas if we wanted to do some about pollution.  Not to mention it's not that hard to do and we have tons of the stuff available.
 
2013-05-08 09:11:08 AM

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.


i5.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-08 09:11:46 AM

RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


Batteries are horrible to make for the environment and too heavy to be really practical. What we need are flash-charge capacitors with a slow bleed - something that can charge to full in half an hour, have enough amperage to run a car, and can store enough watts to run it for 200+ miles. That's the holy grail in my book.

If we can get one to charge fast enough, we could even harvest lightning but that's science fiction for the foreseeable future.
 
2013-05-08 09:15:21 AM

Nem Wan: Ethanol does not contain as much energy per unit of volume as gasoline. This is dilution of a superior product with an inferior product for the benefit of makers of the inferior product.


THIS too.
 
2013-05-08 09:16:55 AM
Psylence: Marcintosh: ALSO-  http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=OR  In most states there are places that sell "Off Road" fuel that has no Alcohol in it.  It's more costly than that usual but how long do you want that $7k John Deere in the shop?  I have prior to now contacted Sunoco and was informed that it would be perfectly fine to run racing fuel in small engines so if you have no off road fuel available but there is a race track near by you can buy some alcohol free fuel there.

I recommend Sunoco 260 GTX. It's 98 octane and has no ethanol. After cleaning out all the carbs and lines on small equipment around here, filling up with that made them run better than new. I now keep 5-15 gallons on hand at all times, especially since it's stable for a long time.

That's exactly what the return email from Sunoco recommended.  It's also a sizable investment.
It never ceases to confound me about the people that will spend $500 - $1000 on a chainsaw with out battin' an eye or $4-$13k on a Zero Turn and then fill it with the cheapest crap at the pump.  Makes no sense to me.
 
2013-05-08 09:18:36 AM

stirfrybry: log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?

That it helps save the planet


Except it does no such thing.
 
2013-05-08 09:20:16 AM

Enemabag Jones: jaytkay ,
TFA: Ethanol supporters..claim,,Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.
Seems like an easy claim to verify.

I believe that engines there, at least sometimes, are made to cope with that.
Also this is based from sugar cane, is sugar cane ethanol same as corn ethanol?


One season of the Amazing Race they squeezed some sugar can through a press, boiled the juice until they separated the water and then dumped the ethanol into their old school style but probably recently built VW Beetle and drove off.

The fuel system metals are usually what's important for compatibility.  But if it was that easy here, I wouldn't be biatching about lower fuel economy on the E-whatever.
 
2013-05-08 09:21:15 AM

filter: I moved to Europe where we live in a rainy fog all winter--- and ended up with water in my gas tank for the first time in my life--- because we do NOT use ethanol here.


I have no idea how you got water in the fuel tank but it has bog all to do with no ethanol being used.

I could really give a furk, I now run diesel.  It is cheaper and more efficient, and with a turbo, plenty of low end power.  The issue is the govt. here promoted diesel as being environmentally friendly, and now we all run diesels and it creates local pollution (which is allegedly better than causing climate change).

Which bit of Europe as I can't remember any UK goverment pushing diesel. I will go as far as too say it is only in recent years that diesel has started to loose the filthy, dirty image...
 
2013-05-08 09:27:52 AM

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


I remember having to rebuild several carbs over ethanol, which you couldn't get away from in the welfare queen capital of America, Nebraska. I saw an ass kicking over a man refusing it at the Co-Op once. It doesn't make sense, it takes almost as much energy to produce this as it yields.
 
2013-05-08 09:28:35 AM

Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.


If you own a rotary and you aren't premixing, you're a chump no matter what fuel you use.

/Have a CSB about mazda 12a running Cali fuel
//Too tired to post it
 
2013-05-08 09:31:01 AM

jaayjones: The amount of bull regarding the problems with ethanol are astounding.  So many in the pay of the big oil companies and so many incompetent mechanics who denounce ethanol either for political reasons or profit.

So many down right lies.

We've used it for years in mowers, cars, tractors, trucks and chain saws without any problems.  I have a couple of vehicles that have run 150,000 miles with no fuel related problems.  I've taken 5000 mile trips and alternated between ethanol blended fuel and regular because people claimed better mileage.  Wasn't true.  Mileage remained the same, probably because ethanol reduced the "ping" factor that lower octane fuel caused.


Different experiences or manufacturers doesn't make other's experiences lies.
 
2013-05-08 09:34:40 AM
You can take my gas guzzling SUV from my cold, dead hands.
 
2013-05-08 09:35:14 AM

DougTaupe: Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.

If you own a rotary and you aren't premixing, you're a chump no matter what fuel you use.

/Have a CSB about mazda 12a running Cali fuel
//Too tired to post it


Premixing with Idemitsu, of course. From day one. Although apparently thats not as good as a mixer with ethanol fuels. If you've got a better recommendation, I'm all ears.
 
2013-05-08 09:41:16 AM

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.


WALL OF TEXT WARNING:

The real problem is infrastructure. The cost of conversion of any vehicle to a dry gas like natural gas or propane is pretty minimal (last i read it was only like $400). The current infrastructure has been rooting itself in place for decades and big oil isn't going to just roll over and let their roots be dug up...

For those who are interested, I have some thoughts on this (please excuse any grammatical errors and the simplicity of the narration):

Methane Nation: How America Can Become Energy Independent AND Environmentally More Responsible

Part 1: Why Methane
First, methane is naturally occurring and abundant. There are numerous methane deposits in the land, under ocean floors, and in places we already dig such as coal mines.

Second, methane is renewable. Methane is a byproduct of decaying organic matter and thus can be produced by organic waste including feces of all animals and humans.

Third, using methane is more environmentally friendly. By itself, methane released into the atmosphere is actually 20x more powerful of a greenhouse gas than CO2, but when burned or used, produces LESS CO2 than Gasoline. Thus switching to methane would reduce (though not eliminate) atmospheric CO2.

Fourth, it's cheaper to produce and more profitable. Methane can be obtained numerous ways, but harvesting from organic and biological waste is cheaper and thus yielding a larger opportunity for profit than producing gasoline.

Fifth, it's compatible with all gasoline burning engines. All gasoline engines are able to use methane with a conversion kit. The average cost to convert a fuel injected car is $400 and converting a carborated engine conversion is less than that.

Sixth, methane is more fuel efficient than Gasoline. Studies show that cars converted to methane gain an average of 5 more miles per liquid gallon over gasoline thus making consumer costs lower still.

Seventh, methane extends the life of the IC engine. The biggest reason engine oil must be replaced is because it is tainted with impurities from liquid gasoline. Dry gas such as methane extend the life of engine oil by thousands of miles. Converted car owners report going 10K miles between oil changes and longer, and report that the oil that is used is translucent and "cleaner" than oil changed from gasoline. Dry gas such as methane also produces less engine noise and less engine vibration, thus reducing wear on some mechanical parts as well. This also means lower maintenance cost to the consumer as well.

The downside: To be honest, there is a downside to using pure methane. Because methane does not contain hydrocarbons as long as gasoline, it does mean a reduction in horsepower in vehicles. When using purified methane, the reduction is around 20% less than gasoline, while "homemade" methane which contains more impurities can have as much as a 40% reduction in power. This can be a deal breaker for those who want faster acceleration and more horsepower out of their vehicles, but for many, the benefits outweigh the drawback. In hybrid vehicles, there is no change in horsepower.

Part 2: Making the Switch - How to prevent Big Oil from Stonewalling Independence
The easy answer is this: include them in the project. As we all know, Big Oil spends millions (if not billions) influencing our government in order to keep the American consumer dependent upon oil for their profit gains. Oil companies report record breaking profits every year, despite the increased cost to procure and produce oil. Their business model works BECAUSE they have enough money and weight to keep us dependent as long as there is oil left to procure.

You could think idealistically and say things like "then we should vote out the people who pander to Big Oil" but the reality is, that by the time a newly elected official takes office, Big Oil already has them under thumb. At this point in history, Big Oil is synonymous with Government. Any independent company that would attempt to come along and dethrone the Big Oil empire would find themselves chew toys by their shills in the government and subject to crippling new regulations or legislation that would stop independent development in its tracks. The only possible way in today's big oil controlled economic stage to convert would be to cut big oil in on the deal, and not a small cut either.

My proposal would be to offer bid contracts among the Big Oil companies production and distribution rights of methane. This serves multiple purposes: 1, it promotes "capitalism" because it's not taxpayers/government paying for the development and implementation of the infrastructure needed to make the switch. 2, it allows Big Oil to maintain profitability and thus prevents Big Oil from throwing their influence against the switch. 3, by giving the contracts to Big Oil, it puts the weight of research and development onto the shoulders of companies well versed in these kinds of matters. 4, it allows Big Oil to use its influence to cause a global paradigm shift that is mutually beneficial to them and the consumer.

Part 3: Flipping the Switch - How Methane will boost the economy from bottom up
So as discussed before, the cheapest method of producing methane is simply letting nature take its course and collecting methane from waste. And as long as humans produce waste, there will never be a shortage of material to produce methane. Simply put, by converting waste water treatment plants in cities and towns across the nation into methane digesters for harvesting the gas, local economies will directly benefit from making the switch.
By boosting economic growth locally, economic growth nationally will quickly rise. By reducing the cost of our energy, it means more money in the hands of the consumers, and thus more money being spent on other economic endeavors. I call this economic growth "Acorn Growth" economics. Unlike "trickle down" economics, Acorn Growth starts by planting small seeds of economic benefits like making energy locally and keeping the cost of energy down, a policy that takes economic root and grows the economy from the bottom up because it effects the lower income brackets first and most and when it reaches the top income, it is stronger and greater with deeper roots (accepted and supported from across all consumer levels).

Then there is the other side of the monopoly board to consider: Car companies. Once Big Oil is on board and in the drivers seat of change, car companies will quickly fall in line. R&D will move from making IC engines more fuel efficient to finding ways to counter the horsepower reductions of methane and making methane combustion more powerful by finding more efficient ways to combust the gas. Perhaps it may mean more powerful hybrids, or redeveloping ICEs to be Dry Gas engines rather than conversions. Within 5-10 years there won't be any concerns about lower horsepower.

Sorry for the huge wall of text here, but this is something i've researched independently over the last 10 years (ever since gas prices skyrocketed after 9/11). I submitted this to some website that popped up a couple of years ago that had TV commercials challenging Americans to come up with alternative energy ideas. The reply i got back from them was that it was a good idea, but working with Big Oil was the exact opposite of the purpose of the challenge...
 
2013-05-08 09:46:48 AM
The new "environmentally friendly" high-octane E15 fuel that Obama is about to mandate for all cars may damage your fuel lines, destroy your engine, void your warranty, and possibly -- who can say for sure? -- kill you dead

It will also rape your mother, cheat on your sister, borrow money and never pay it back, kick your dog, key your car, clog your toilet, drink all of your beer, never say 'thank you', buy pay-per-view services late at night on your credit card without telling you, scratch its balls at the dinner table, love movies you hate, get barbecue sauce on your couch, lose the remote, make your house reek of weed, refuse to look for a job, leave the air conditioning and lights on when leaving for the day, break your pool cue while pretending to be a ninja, break the screen on your phone, use AXE body spray as a substitution for showering, and convince your nine-year-old son to call his teacher a 'coont'.
 
2013-05-08 09:52:52 AM

CeroX: The real problem is infrastructure.


the real problem is the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. you can't change the fundamental laws of the universe. energy density is a physical property.

FTFY.
 
2013-05-08 09:54:43 AM

utah dude: CeroX: The real problem is infrastructure.

the real problem is the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. you can't change the fundamental laws of the universe. energy density is a physical property.

FTFY.


No, that really isn't the problem.
 
2013-05-08 09:56:51 AM
Wanting widespread E85 so that I can run a high boost map. Another 40 hp.
 
2013-05-08 09:57:09 AM

CeroX: Methane Nation: How America Can Become Energy Independent AND Environmentally More Responsible


CNG conversions can be done for a couple grand. Actually considering it for my Toyota FJ.. I like the idea of being able to fill the CNG tanks from the lines coming into my house. Methane is an interesting idea but I wouldn't be terribly enthused about being in a traffic jam surrounded by methane burning vehicles.
 
2013-05-08 09:57:43 AM

Egoy3k: Psylence: I recommend Sunoco 260 GTX. It's 98 octane and has no ethanol. After cleaning out all the carbs and lines on small equipment around here, filling up with that made them run better than new. I now keep 5-15 gallons on hand at all times, especially since it's stable for a long time.

You must be running pretty high compression ratios on your lawn mowers and weed whackers if you need 98 octane fuel for them.

Granted higher octane fuel usually has more detergent and stabilizers in it but it still seems like a waste for a small engine. If you are keeping your fuel so long that you need stabilizers in it I would imagine you are buying enough at one time to add your own stabilizer and save a bunch of money.


One of my vehicles has 2 turbos, runs on 87 unleaded and the fuel system pressurizes the fuel to over 2000 PSI at the injectors. Not to mention it has the ability to modify the fuel and spark curve on the fly among many other parameters. And yes it's a rather popular vehicle, nothing anecdotal about it's availability.

Pablo's 1969 V-dub maybe sees 5-7 PSI fuel pressure at best, and has an antiquated fuel system though it probably originally had full rubber fuel lines. I'm sure some work had to be done to combat the ethanol attacking the rubber. Just making a point that a 1969 vintage vehicle can't really be directly compared to a modern day vehicle.

I think the point was missed. He purchased the fuel because of NO ethanol. The fact it has a high octane # is just a bonus.
 
2013-05-08 10:04:27 AM

remus:   There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.


Support the use of Kudzu:
- Convert E from corn to Kudzu
- Convert corn subsidies to Kudzu harvesting start-ups
- create jobs in a new sector
- reduce overall corn cost by no longer artificially inflated demand

Oh wait. That last one will never stand. Corn Lobbyist will threaten to pull back 'donations'.
 
2013-05-08 10:06:44 AM

CeroX: WALL OF TEXT WARNING:


Seriously? You really need a hobby

/tl;dr
 
2013-05-08 10:17:03 AM
Yay! CSB time!

Back in 2005 I was taking flight lessons at a local airport (M02, for you pilot farkers) when I experienced an "engine out". We got the engine to restart and made our way back to the airport and reported the incident to the mechanics on duty. They gave it a once-over, but didn't find any issues. Next student who went up also had an engine out and made a good restart, with the instructor nursing the plane home. Mechanics tore down the engine and found shreds of rubber from the fuel lines plugging the injectors.
After some serious investigation it was found that the owner of the plane had fueled up on Ethanol-laced Mogas (High octane road gas), despite the warnings on the fuel ports that said to only use 100-LL (Low-Lead) gas. Thanks to that carelessness two flight students had engine failures that could have led to crashes or hard landings.
/CSB done.
//Ethanol usage in engines and fuel systems not designed for it can be potentially fatal.
 
2013-05-08 10:28:53 AM
fark this.

E10 in my car vs "real" gas drops my mileage by >10%. I end up using more actual oil to travel the same distance.
 
2013-05-08 10:29:34 AM

Enormous-Schwanstucker: prjindigo: There is one true statement in all of this.

If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.

The more alcohol added to the fuel, the lower the octane.  Subby is a retard.

I'd like to find a passenger vehicle with a fuel delivery system worth $10,000 though I suspect you were just throwing that number out for effect.
You may want to rethink the idea of adding alcohol won't bump octane. It does and I'm not going to debate it. I'll just leave this LINK right here.


I'll just leave this here
VW TDI catastrophic fuel failure and the $10,000 repair

/Walks away whistling.
 
2013-05-08 11:06:11 AM

abhorrent1: CeroX: WALL OF TEXT WARNING:

Seriously? You really need a hobby

/tl;dr


That was a hobby... i built a methane digester out of a water heater. I got with pet owners from my area and set up a deposit for their pets' poop and combined it with a membrane filter to filter the methane from the sulpher and other impurities and used a compressor to fill a propane tank with liquid methane.

I used that to power a generator i converted...

It was fun, but i don't produce enough to fully convert my car and so it never grew more than just a hobby which i eventually kinda dropped because it became more of a hassle to find something to do with the methane i was making...
 
2013-05-08 11:42:57 AM

Hollie Maea: utah dude: CeroX: The real problem is infrastructure.

the real problem is the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. you can't change the fundamental laws of the universe. energy density is a physical property.

FTFY.

No, that really isn't the problem.


dude, try burning a few gallons of n-butanol. you might fry your oxygen sensor but your engine will be very very happy and clean.
 
2013-05-08 11:47:57 AM

Turbo Cojones: Enormous-Schwanstucker: prjindigo: There is one true statement in all of this.

If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.

The more alcohol added to the fuel, the lower the octane.  Subby is a retard.

I'd like to find a passenger vehicle with a fuel delivery system worth $10,000 though I suspect you were just throwing that number out for effect.
You may want to rethink the idea of adding alcohol won't bump octane. It does and I'm not going to debate it. I'll just leave this LINK right here.

I'll just leave this here
VW TDI catastrophic fuel failure and the $10,000 repair

/Walks away whistling.


Splitting hairs but I was referring the fuel system only. A few months ago I did read about some VW TDI failures but that was due to an intercooler issue. But...grassy ass for the info. Sucks to be a TDI owner eh? :)
 
2013-05-08 11:50:02 AM

Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.


This.  40% of the country's corn crop is currently used for ethanol, rather than for things like animal feed.

That scarcity of corn has raised the price of corn.

That increased price of corn translates to increased prices of things like, milk, beef, pork, chicken, you name it.  I know that in my neighborhood, I've seen the meat prices increase 50% or greater over the past few years.  Chicken used to be a relatively economical dinner.  Not so much anymore.

Using simple math, mandatory E-15 could result in 60% of the nation's corn being used for ethanol.  The simplistic conclusion would be to grow more corn.  Ahhh... but consider how much water is being used to grow corn?  I've seen figures ranging upwards of 1,000 gallons of water needed to produce one gallon of ethanol.

Or maybe we should start importing corn?  Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?
 
2013-05-08 11:56:11 AM
A technology Brazil has been using successfully since the early 1970's, and the US doesn't have the technology to make it work in the 2010's?

Leave it to Faux News.....
 
2013-05-08 12:22:04 PM
If you're lucky, you can find real gas near race tracks and airports.

Cessnas don't run on e-85. Should tell you something.

/shiat ruins 2 stroke motors
//ethanol destroys the oil film that protects the cylinder lining and piston rings.
///Seafoam will actually clean em out really well. worked on my boat.
 
2013-05-08 12:23:01 PM

vikingfan73: Or maybe we should start importing corn? Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?


Or stealing water.
 
2013-05-08 12:25:45 PM
I work on the automotive field. If a car is not built for ethanol running a higher percentage of that in your vehicle with hurt the gaskets in the motor (the ethanol vehicles run metal ones) it will hurt the injectors and the converter and that my friends is fact. O have to many repair orders to show yoi to prove that. The only why they say in the article that other places have not seen damage is that the harm is not instantaneous it happens over a period of time.
 
2013-05-08 12:28:18 PM
Can we just speed up research on electric so that no matter what the original fuel is, it can be used in all electric cars?
 
2013-05-08 12:31:13 PM
As an auto engineer, my two cents are:

The consumer is going to suffer slightly, mostly due to the institutional incompetency of some companies.  Some companies out there might have some really old engine design they've been making forever and feel needs an upgrade when gas goes from E10 to E15.  They'll screw something up in the process and have to pull in a bunch of recalls.  The other thing will be that companies who are redesigning their engines for other reasons (jumping on the direct injected bandwagon, etc) will blame any and all failures of their new product on E15 since that sounds ever so much better than "John in engineering can't work the design software properly."  or "We got cheap in the testing phase and a bunch of problems slipped through to production."  E15 will also be a lovely scapegoat for the "Well we shifted manufacturing to Outer Buttfarkingstanohgodthefactoryisonfireagain and quality went to shiat/they sent us fuel lines made out of dried rat gut".

I dislike E15 for the general principles of being corn based and consuming food while people start to death.  If we want make work, how about we pay people to go put the corn on a boat and drop it off in various third world countries.  Cellulosic ethanol holds a lot of promise actually given that you can make from lawn clippings but we still need more R&D time on that.  I'm actually very excited about the idea of coming up with regional level plants where all the parks departments drop off their lawn clippings and get back ethanol for their trucks in return.  Perhaps we could look at reaching the level where the yard waste from a city could power most of the municipal vehicles in use.  That's likely the future, not ignoring the variety of local fuel sources around us.  Biodiesel hybrid powertrains for the city buses and big trucks, a cellulosic ethanol/plugin hybrid for city cars, and pure electric vehicles for the smaller stuff.
 
2013-05-08 12:34:42 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: digistil: RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

Isn't there some group that's successfully built a energy storage device that fills like a transistor, but discharges like normal battery?

Um, that would be a capacitor.

The only difference between a capacitor and a battery (electrically speaking) is the internal resistance and the energy density.

The inherent flaw in a megacapacitor is that while a rechargable battery converts input electricity into a chemical reaction, the capacitor just holds electrons back. All of that energy can me released in microseconds if you get a short, crush the canister, etc.

If you are holding a car trip's worth of energy, that would probably leave a crater.


I think he is talking about this story:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/153614-new-lithium-ion-battery- de sign-thats-2000-times-more-powerful-recharges-1000-times-faster

It is still just in the laboratory stage, but it works by redesigning the anode/cathode to offer more surface area. So faster charge times than a regular battery and the same storage density as a regular battery.
 
2013-05-08 12:45:57 PM

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.


How much do you spend a month on gasoline? My Nissan LEAF lease costs me $199 a month. I used to spend over $225 a month in gas in my 20mpg truck, driving 1,200 miles. When I factor in standard combustion maintenance, wear & tear, along with depreciation - it's far more economic for me to drive & lease an electric car. If you want to buy a LEAF straight out, they cost $21k these days; not exactly breaking the bank.

And when it comes to 100+ mile days, spending 15-20 minutes recharging off of one of these isn't all that tough:
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

/Likes living free of gasoline prices.
//recharges for free from solar power at home and work.
 
m00
2013-05-08 12:46:07 PM
"It's about a battle for the barrel. Ethanol, renewable fuels, have been phenomenally successful over the last several years, and we are now 10 percent of the U.S. motor fuel market"

yeah cuz... it's been mandated to be included in gasoline at 10%.
 
2013-05-08 12:47:12 PM

vikingfan73: Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.

This.  40% of the country's corn crop is currently used for ethanol, rather than for things like animal feed.

That scarcity of corn has raised the price of corn.

That increased price of corn translates to increased prices of things like, milk, beef, pork, chicken, you name it.  I know that in my neighborhood, I've seen the meat prices increase 50% or greater over the past few years.  Chicken used to be a relatively economical dinner.  Not so much anymore.

Using simple math, mandatory E-15 could result in 60% of the nation's corn being used for ethanol.  The simplistic conclusion would be to grow more corn.  Ahhh... but consider how much water is being used to grow corn?  I've seen figures ranging upwards of 1,000 gallons of water needed to produce one gallon of ethanol.

Or maybe we should start importing corn?  Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?


The nitrates used for the fertilizer come from oil byproducts and the insecticides used to protect the crop also contain petrol products, the pumps used for irrigation are diesel powered water pumps... I'm not saying that there's as much oil going into the Corn crops that are used to add to Petrol, but it's not oil free...

The corn/ethanol push is just another ploy to keep Big Farmers well subsidized. Corn is super cheap to grow per acre and the subsidies from the gov. provide Big Farmers/Big Corn billions in profits for no reason. Corn isn't the natural food for cattle OR flightless fowl, and feeding them corn creates hazardous conditions that promotes e-coli. Basically by denying the cattle the high fiber based diet they evolved the rumen for, the cattle's digestive tract has a higher pH level that is favorable for e-coli to survive and spread into the feces where the animals are exposed to and the manure is also used in fertilizers where it can spread e-coli to things like spinach (remember the spinach e-coli scare a couple years ago?).

So, in short, F* corn subsidies and the corn lobby, we don't want that shiat in our food or our gas tanks!
 
2013-05-08 12:50:39 PM
It is NOT more environmentally sound!

* Alcohol has a lower energy content. You get WORSE MILEAGE running a higher alcohol content
* Farm vehicles and fermenting alcohol give off greenhouse gasses
*   Since ethanol contains 2/3 of the energy per volume as gasoline, ethanol produces 19% more CO2 than gasoline for the same energy
* We are burning FOOD while humans are starving.
 
2013-05-08 12:53:04 PM

RedPhoenix122: One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


The other huge problem is range. In the Winter (which is long here in the NorthEast) the range is piss poor. Recharging takes a LONG time. Refueling a gas car takes only minutes.
 
2013-05-08 01:01:59 PM

SpectroBoy: RedPhoenix122: One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

The other huge problem is range. In the Winter (which is long here in the NorthEast) the range is piss poor. Recharging takes a LONG time. Refueling a gas car takes only minutes.


You go on and keep telling yourself that.
 
2013-05-08 01:08:58 PM

MrSteve007: SpectroBoy: RedPhoenix122: One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

The other huge problem is range. In the Winter (which is long here in the NorthEast) the range is piss poor. Recharging takes a LONG time. Refueling a gas car takes only minutes.

You go on and keep telling yourself that.


I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...
 
2013-05-08 01:14:20 PM

Psylence: I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...


Take her for a test drive.  Seriously.  Someone who is worried about losing too much enjoyment driving an electric vehicle is someone who has never driven one.  And I say this as someone who has never bought an automatic.
 
2013-05-08 01:20:10 PM

Psylence: I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...



While I haven't test driven a model S yet, I can assure you that there is a whole lot of joy out of zero lag time of putting torque straight to the ground - without having to wait for shifts or the spinning up of an engine to peak output of RPM. I enjoy riding my Honda sport bike (which pound for pound, will out accelerate 99.99% of cars on the road), but the drivetrain feels downright archaic compared to the instant power of an electric vehicle.

Also, according to an upcoming Consumer Reports review (I listen to their blog), their Tesla Model S makes for an unrivaled drifting car. Road and Track put out a short video a few months of them instantly melting some tires. You can't tell me that doesn't look exciting.
 
2013-05-08 01:20:19 PM
E-15 needs to be mocked the same way Hooked on Phonics was mocked.
 
2013-05-08 01:22:40 PM

MrSteve007: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

How much do you spend a month on gasoline? My Nissan LEAF lease costs me $199 a month. I used to spend over $225 a month in gas in my 20mpg truck, driving 1,200 miles. When I factor in standard combustion maintenance, wear & tear, along with depreciation - it's far more economic for me to drive & lease an electric car. If you want to buy a LEAF straight out, they cost $21k these days; not exactly breaking the bank.

And when it comes to 100+ mile days, spending 15-20 minutes recharging off of one of these isn't all that tough:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 538x717]

/Likes living free of gasoline prices.
//recharges for free from solar power at home and work.


I bet the economics of a traditional car would trump your Leaf when you consider all the costs of ownership, not to mention the drastically reduced range.

How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.
 
2013-05-08 01:23:32 PM

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.


Except that it's mostly corn-state representatives pushing ethanol, because the increased demand drives massive profits.

If you want to overlay a map of corn production over congressional districts, I would be surprised if a majority of corn is not produced in Red States.
 
2013-05-08 01:24:07 PM
Blah, I really need to preview... "Red Districts".
 
2013-05-08 01:28:33 PM

Enigmamf: Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.

Except that it's mostly corn-state representatives pushing ethanol, because the increased demand drives massive profits.

If you want to overlay a map of corn production over congressional districts, I would be surprised if a majority of corn is not produced in Red States.


Ethanol fuel was the "brain" child of the Midwest corn lobby and George W. Bush.
 
2013-05-08 01:31:04 PM

smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.


I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.
 
2013-05-08 01:33:16 PM
My owner's manual very explicitly says nothing past E-10.

So if I'm forced to fill up with E-15 and my engine shiats the bed can I sue the government?
 
2013-05-08 01:35:41 PM

Lunchlady: My owner's manual very explicitly says nothing past E-10.

So if I'm forced to fill up with E-15 and my engine shiats the bed can I sue the government?


E-10 will still be available, nobody is forcing you to use E-15.
 
2013-05-08 01:36:37 PM

Hollie Maea: Psylence: I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...

Take her for a test drive.  Seriously.  Someone who is worried about losing too much enjoyment driving an electric vehicle is someone who has never driven one.  And I say this as someone who has never bought an automatic.


MrSteve007: While I haven't test driven a model S yet, I can assure you that there is a whole lot of joy out of zero lag time of putting torque straight to the ground - without having to wait for shifts or the spinning up of an engine to peak output of RPM. I enjoy riding my Honda sport bike (which pound for pound, will out accelerate 99.99% of cars on the road), but the drivetrain feels downright archaic compared to the instant power of an electric vehicle.


They are supposed to be putting in a "Gallery" nearby in the next couple months, I'll definitely be swinging by to see what its all about. I'm a big fan of what Tesla is trying to do to the auto industry and car buying model as a whole, and would like to support him...
 
2013-05-08 01:36:44 PM
E10 makes my bike run like shiat compared to pure gas. Fark E10 and fark the idea of E15.
 
2013-05-08 01:39:19 PM

smonter: I bet the economics of a traditional car would trump your Leaf when you consider all the costs of ownership, not to mention the drastically reduced range.

How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.


That's the thing, at least in my area of the country, range isn't that big of an issue anymore - there are ~20 minute "fast" chargers about every 30 miles along our interstates (by my last count, 27 operational in WA State and 47 in OR). That's on top of the ~10,000 level II chargers in most urban areas and parks now (we're getting a level II charger at my office in a couple weeks).

The lease signing was $1,000 - which included the first month's lease, 15,000 miles a year, $199 a month - 3 year & option to buy the car for $19k (I got one of the top end $38k cars, the feds kicked in $7,500 off the list price)

After three years, I'll have spent $7,965 on the lease, and driven 45,000 miles (my commute is about 55 miles a day). If I keep driving a 20mpg, 8-year old  vehicle, and gas prices were to stay at about $3.75 - I would have spent $8,437 on fuel, and if I got an $40 oil change every 5k miles, spent an extra $360 on oil, plus probably an air filter or two - so lets call it an even $9,000. And lets not count depreciation or unforseen repairs on a truck that has 150k miles currently

In my case, it makes a lot of sense to lease the car. It's cheaper for me to have a brand new, top of the line EV and charge it - than it is to keep putting gasoline in my paid-off 8-year old rig.
 
2013-05-08 01:48:22 PM

MrSteve007: smonter: I bet the economics of a traditional car would trump your Leaf when you consider all the costs of ownership, not to mention the drastically reduced range.

How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

That's the thing, at least in my area of the country, range isn't that big of an issue anymore - there are ~20 minute "fast" chargers about every 30 miles along our interstates (by my last count, 27 operational in WA State and 47 in OR). That's on top of the ~10,000 level II chargers in most urban areas and parks now (we're getting a level II charger at my office in a couple weeks).

The lease signing was $1,000 - which included the first month's lease, 15,000 miles a year, $199 a month - 3 year & option to buy the car for $19k (I got one of the top end $38k cars, the feds kicked in $7,500 off the list price)

After three years, I'll have spent $7,965 on the lease, and driven 45,000 miles (my commute is about 55 miles a day). If I keep driving a 20mpg, 8-year old  vehicle, and gas prices were to stay at about $3.75 - I would have spent $8,437 on fuel, and if I got an $40 oil change every 5k miles, spent an extra $360 on oil, plus probably an air filter or two - so lets call it an even $9,000. And lets not count depreciation or unforseen repairs on a truck that has 150k miles currently

In my case, it makes a lot of sense to lease the car. It's cheaper for me to have a brand new, top of the line EV and charge it - than it is to keep putting gasoline in my paid-off 8-year old rig.


It would seem to me you would have been better by a large margin to purchase a used car with decent mileage than the EV. That is assuming you kept the truck and didn't trade it in and you would still have a lot more value at the end of the lease. The other problem is what happens when you get out of CA, WA or Oregon? God forbid to get to a place like MT where you can drive 150 miles and there be nothing.

I don't doubt your leaf works for you, but you also have a second car correct?
 
2013-05-08 01:56:16 PM

Enigmamf: smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.


Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?
 
2013-05-08 01:59:13 PM

jaytkay: Lunchlady: My owner's manual very explicitly says nothing past E-10.

So if I'm forced to fill up with E-15 and my engine shiats the bed can I sue the government?

E-10 will still be available, nobody is forcing you to use E-15.


Available for how long? It's stupid that the government even mandates E10 since the reduced mileage and over pollution goes up by using that much ethanol in fuel. We would be far better off to let gasoline companies decide how much ethanol is needed in fuel as a anti-knock additive to meet spec.
 
2013-05-08 02:04:57 PM

smonter: Enigmamf: smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.

Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?


Toyota FJ Cruiser master race here. Holding more value than anything after years of ownership!
 
2013-05-08 02:11:23 PM

Psylence: smonter: Enigmamf: smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.

Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?

Toyota FJ Cruiser master race here. Holding more value than anything after years of ownership!


I'm with you. I owned a 2008 Honda CRV new a few years back and purchased it new for $21,400 and sold it 26 months later (with 21k miles) for $19,800, so not all cars devalue super quick. Luxury cars seem to be the worst for losing value from what I've seen and the daily drivers not so much.
 
2013-05-08 02:20:19 PM
So spring has arrived and I just replaced the fuel pump and rebuilt the carb on my generator. Bought a new chainsaw because my dad's old saw refused to start without a carb rebuild. Lawn mower started up fine again this year. Running all the gas out of the engines and treating the fuel with Sta-bil last fall didn't save the chainsaw or the generator. I'm guessing the lawnmower is slowly building up problems so in the next year or two I'll have to rebuild the carb on it too.

I found a gas station up the street that sells ethanol free gas, so I'll be running that through all my small engines from now on. The ethanol stuff is godawful fuel and doesn't store worth a damn. If you run your stuff regularly year round it'll be okay, but as soon as you store it for more than a month or two you end up with all sorts of problems. My buddy runs a small engine shop though, so it keeps him in business.

 If they increase the ethanol content I'm probably going to have to start running ethanol free through my truck as well. Though I'm guessing that source will disappear and I'll have to buy a new truck and all new small engines a spring or two after it hits the pumps. For now I'll run everything once a month at a minimum and replace the 5 gallons I keep on hand for power outages and such every fall. What a pain in the ass.

Some guy recommended a fuel stabilizer up thread... Star something or other. I'll keep that in mind, 'cause Sta-bil seems pretty farkin' worthless. In the manual for the chainsaw I just bought it said untreated ethanol gas will keep for a month, treated will double that time. Two farking months with an additive in it. So if I couldn't find ethanol free gas, keeping enough stored and fresh to run a generator for any length of time would be such a humongous pain in the ass.

And when I was at the local lawn and garden place to buy the chainsaw and generator parts there was a line out the door. Every person there was having problems stemming from ethanol in the gas. And I suppose improper storage. I guess we're all still adapting to the fact you can't store shiat over the winter like you used to be able to.
 
2013-05-08 02:25:08 PM

Eddie Ate Dynamite: So spring has arrived and I just replaced the fuel pump and rebuilt the carb on my generator. Bought a new chainsaw because my dad's old saw refused to start without a carb rebuild. Lawn mower started up fine again this year. Running all the gas out of the engines and treating the fuel with Sta-bil last fall didn't save the chainsaw or the generator. I'm guessing the lawnmower is slowly building up problems so in the next year or two I'll have to rebuild the carb on it too.

I found a gas station up the street that sells ethanol free gas, so I'll be running that through all my small engines from now on. The ethanol stuff is godawful fuel and doesn't store worth a damn. If you run your stuff regularly year round it'll be okay, but as soon as you store it for more than a month or two you end up with all sorts of problems. My buddy runs a small engine shop though, so it keeps him in business.

 If they increase the ethanol content I'm probably going to have to start running ethanol free through my truck as well. Though I'm guessing that source will disappear and I'll have to buy a new truck and all new small engines a spring or two after it hits the pumps. For now I'll run everything once a month at a minimum and replace the 5 gallons I keep on hand for power outages and such every fall. What a pain in the ass.

Some guy recommended a fuel stabilizer up thread... Star something or other. I'll keep that in mind, 'cause Sta-bil seems pretty farkin' worthless. In the manual for the chainsaw I just bought it said untreated ethanol gas will keep for a month, treated will double that time. Two farking months with an additive in it. So if I couldn't find ethanol free gas, keeping enough stored and fresh to run a generator for any length of time would be such a humongous pain in the ass.

And when I was at the local lawn and garden place to buy the chainsaw and generator parts there was a line out the door. Every person there was having problems stemming from ethanol in the ga ...


For yard equipment nothing beats AV gas (check your local small airport) or Ethanol free gas if you can find it locally. Red Sta-bil is pretty useless but the green marine grade stuff is good.
 
2013-05-08 02:29:49 PM
Honestly I am not exactly happy about this e-15 thing. I don't want to run e-15 in my motorcycle, as Suzuki has said it is a bad idea... but the problem is the blenders. If I want e-10 I have to wait for someone to fill up with e-10 in front of me or I am screwed. The EPA has said in order to "minimize impact on e-10" and misfueling they have set a 4 gallon minimum purchase. My tank is 4 gallons.... and there is absolutely no way I can run it to empty and fill up every time.

If they mandate e-15 then a lot of motorcycle riders are going to be screwed.
 
2013-05-08 02:30:02 PM
VP also sells a "small engine fuel" in quart sized bottles that is ethanol free, and can be purchased in a variety of quantities.

Sunoco 260GTX or VP T4 is the only unleaded fuel I run in motorcycles and power equipment anymore, and its a damn shame. Might even look into getting a 55gallon drum delivered, so then I can run it in my FJ as well just to see the difference in mileage. For science!
 
2013-05-08 02:34:29 PM

smonter: I don't doubt your leaf works for you, but you also have a second car correct?


Right now you kind of need a second car in a lot of cases for long trips.  But if you have one of the longer range vehicles like the Tesla, a lot of people take very long trips infrequently enough that you could get away with just renting a gas car when you need it.

But the technology is already here such that we could easily have EVs that would be able to go on any trip.  Basically a car with a 300 mile range would be completely sufficient as long as there were enough chargers available.  Today's batteries can charge up to 80 percent at 3C  For a 300 mile car, that's a charging rate of 15 miles per minute.  So, as long as chargers were available, you could drive indefinitely if you stopped once for 5 minutes to take a piss and once for 15 minutes to grab some fast food every 5 hours.  Again, the charging infrastructure doesn't exist today, but the battery technology is there TODAY.  A bigger remaining issue is that batteries are still expensive, so a 300 mile pack costs a lot.  But those prices are falling very rapidly.
 
2013-05-08 02:36:43 PM

remus: King Something: remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two a Japanese company that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?

Toyota owns Lexus.

Thanks.  It's late, I'm barely awake.  Point is the same.  A respected company says not to use it in their cars.  Seems like it isn't just some crazed right wingers, it's real engineers with the science and testing saying no to it.

It's a horrible idea anyway, using all that energy to produce less energy isn't a good start, then it's less efficient so it costs more per mile to use it.  Plus, it diverts a huge amount of corn into this silly effort which causes our grocery bill to skyrocket because animal grain feed costs more, grain costs more, etc.

The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies


Those 'real engineers' seem to be lacking a little something called  data...

/If the article doesn't have a blue linky, it's bullshiat
//And I did not see a blue linky
 
2013-05-08 02:37:41 PM

Psylence: Might even look into getting a 55gallon drum delivered, so then I can run it in my FJ as well just to see the difference in mileage.


Why stop with a 55 gallon drum when you can get 600,000 metric tons?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/140663597/GASOLINE_89_AND_93_OCT AN E.html

/Alibaba is a source of endless entertainment.
 
2013-05-08 02:47:31 PM

OnlyM3: Baumli

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e. older vehicles And what segment of society is likely to drive "older vehicles"

Once again looking out for the poor. The party of compassion speaks. And like always, says "Fark the poor".


I love how you look for any post that you can twist into letting you shiat everywhere about liberals no matter how much into a pretzel you need to mangle it.
 
2013-05-08 03:33:14 PM
Not to mention that burning your FOOD SUPPLY for FUEL is always the best use of any food product.

/I like Corn Flakes
 
2013-05-08 04:32:02 PM
Acres and acres of astroturf!
 
2013-05-08 04:55:18 PM

italie: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Salt.

You live near the ocean. Moisture got into your tank. The alcohol aided in drying that moisture as the gas sat. Happens with regular gas too, only not at as fast a pace, and with more sludgy results.


Lol, wut?  Here's an experiment for you: take a liter of water and dissolve 100g of salt in the water.  Put the water into a bowl and put it in a sunny place.  Once the water has evaporated, scrape what remains out of the bowl and weigh it.  It should be right around 100g.  Know why?  Because salt doesn't evaporate like water.  I live near the Great Salt Lake, if salt is carried along when water evaporates everything around here would be covered in a layer of salt.  There are several companies that extract the salt from the lake water using an evaporative process (put lake water into a pond isolated from the lake, let the water evaporate and go scrape up the salt that is left behind).  If evaporation led to salt vapor as well as water vapor this process would not work.
 
2013-05-08 04:58:08 PM
smonter:Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?

Leasing is definitely on average better for the lessor than the lessee - they're in the business of making sure that is the case. The advantage to the lessee is that leasing removes risk to the individual: The largest cost of owning a new vehicle during its first three years is depreciation, and leasing locks in how much that depreciation will cost you. So if you know you will always want to drive a new car, leasing eliminates the hassle of resale and the uncertainty of your expected return on that sale.

By "best", in this situation I mean only "lowest depreciation over the first three years of ownership". Look at KBB 2013 Best Resale Value Awards: A car that retains 60% of its value over 3 years rounds out the top-ten list of the best (predicted) resale values, out of hundreds of models.

I will say that it looks like the numbers are much higher than they were 5 years ago. I think that is because production has been so low since the economic collapse that used cars are in low supply relative to demand, and so are garnering higher prices. In 2008, by my memory the best predicted 3-year resale values were on the order of 50%.
 
2013-05-08 05:26:20 PM

Enigmamf: smonter:Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?

Leasing is definitely on average better for the lessor than the lessee - they're in the business of making sure that is the case. The advantage to the lessee is that leasing removes risk to the individual: The largest cost of owning a new vehicle during its first three years is depreciation, and leasing locks in how much that depreciation will cost you. So if you know you will always want to drive a new car, leasing eliminates the hassle of resale and the uncertainty of your expected return on that sale.

By "best", in this situation I mean only "lowest depreciation over the first three years of ownership". Look at KBB 2013 Best Resale Value Awards: A car that retains 60% of its value over 3 years rounds out the top-ten list of the best (predicted) resale values, out of hundreds of models.

I will say that it looks like the numbers are much higher than they were 5 years ago. I think that is because production has been so low since the economic collapse that used cars are in low supply relative to demand, and so are garnering higher prices. In 2008, by my memory the best predicted 3-year resale values were on the order of 50%.


It also helps when the Feds offer a $7,500 credit for electric vehicles, which comes right off the top - and since Nissan wanted to unload their 2012 models for the 2013 models (which have 20% more range and 1/2 the charge time), they were offering an additional $5,000 off MSRP. With $12,500 off the top, most of my lease depreciation was taken care of before the keys were handed over.
 
Essentially, I'm leasing a $38,500 car at a discount price of $25,000. At the end of the 3-year lease, I can option to buy it for $19,000, or walk. I come out looking pretty good at $199 a month during the period of the lease (and $1k at signing). And as I said previously, considering I don't have to pay a cent for fuel, it it's not a half bad deal.
 
2013-05-08 05:50:19 PM

log_jammin: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/four-t h ings-to-know-about-e15-15096134

All cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components.

...

But the main issue is whether or not your vehicle will be covered under warranty for any damage caused by E15 usage, and in many cases the answer is no. GM and Ford have certified their own vehicles starting with the 2012 and 2013 model years, respectively, so some brand-new cars will have no trouble at all.

So in short, buy a new car if you want us to honor the warranty, otherwise we will blame any problem you have on E15, forcing you to eat the cost yourself.


I have a car I bought in 2003, and have been pulling regular maintenance on it to keep it running; I like not having to make car payments.  Now I'm expected to buy a new car because there won't be any gas available that won't tear up its engine?
 
"Cash for Clunkers" wasn't good enough for you, Obama?  You're not going to be satisfied until every American is in debt?
 
2013-05-08 06:22:56 PM

MrSteve007: It also helps when the Feds offer a $7,500 credit for electric vehicles, which comes right off the top - and since Nissan wanted to unload their 2012 models for the 2013 models (which have 20% more range and 1/2 the charge time), they were offering an additional $5,000 off MSRP. With $12,500 off the top, most of my lease depreciation was taken care of before the keys were handed over.
 
Essentially, I'm leasing a $38,500 car at a discount price of $25,000. At the end of the 3-year lease, I can option to buy it for $19,000, or walk. I come out looking pretty good at $199 a month during the period of the lease (and $1k at signing). And as I said previously, c

onsidering I don't have to pay a cent for fuel, it it's not a half bad deal.

36 months @ $199 + $1000 = $8164. They can probably finance a lease at 1%, so they're going to pay about $600 in finance charges. That means their break-even point on the deal is $17.5k: If the car is worth more than that at turn-in time, they make a profit; if less, a loss. If you take the lease-purchase option, they make a pretty good guaranteed profit, especially considering they have to do less than if you don't keep it.

Maybe you'll feel it's worth that extra $1.5k to own a car you know the complete maintenance and wear history on. Maybe the actual market resale value will be higher than that, and you really will make out on it. Maybe it'll be lower, and it'll be cheaper for you to buy one off the used market than to take the lease-purchase option.

Point is, it seems like a "reasonable" deal, not an overwhelmingly fantastic deal.

Re: "I don't have to pay a cent for fuel": You'll have to tell me again how you're getting this free electricity, I want in on that!
 
2013-05-08 06:43:42 PM
I can't tell if the headline is sarcastic or if Subby actually believes this (Poe's law).  The article never mentions Obama (even though it is Fox news, if they could blame Obama they would), and does specifically mention that this mandate comes from Congress.  The thread is full of people blaming Obama for their (hypothetically) destroyed engines.  Do you people actually believe this or are all the posts satire?
 
2013-05-08 06:46:50 PM

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.



I guess when they perfect the solar powered jet airplane.
 
2013-05-08 06:58:10 PM

Enigmamf: Re: "I don't have to pay a cent for fuel": You'll have to tell me again how you're getting this free electricity, I want in on that!


Well, I get to charge for free from work; at least for this year, the quick chargers around the state are free, and when it comes to all the electricity at my house, it comes from these:
fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net
/the first kWh cost me $25k - everyone after that was free
//full ROI on that first kWh in June of 2019
 
2013-05-08 07:42:08 PM
Doesn't Minnesota already mandate a 15% ethanol blend?

It's still a huge joke that anyone thinks this is some sort of energy conservation though considering the abysmal efficiency of corn based ethanol.
 
2013-05-08 09:26:27 PM
Meh. The vulnerable parts were switched to better materials years ago because OEMs have been hearing about the coming of E15 (and M15) since the 90s. This is slso driven by the tightened emissions regs and longer lifetime requirements driven by the EPA. Also, fuel systems have to be designed to go in vehicles that are sold worldwide, so they are already tested for stuff worse than this (Brazil uses E22-E100, other regions mix in methanol). If you are really paranoid, you can get kits to swap in the better material (nitrile to fluorosilicone or fluorocarbon; upgrade lines to multilayer nylon 12 or multilayer rubber).
 
2013-05-08 09:41:17 PM

vpb: Nothing.  Car engines have been made to use gasohol for years, but the laws don't apply to things like generators and lawnmowers.


Horseshiat.  You can't get anything BUT E10 around here.  Mandate E15 and your small lawn engine will have to be rebuilt every year.
 
2013-05-08 09:49:18 PM

ShawnDoc: remus: That using corn for this is a good idea. It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest. They use sugar cane in South America. There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.

The corn lobby is powerful, that's all you need to know.


That shiat has been gmo'd into non-foodom, and making fuel out of it is the best use at this point. I certainly wouldn't put it in my stomach.
 
2013-05-08 09:50:41 PM

darkone: Wanting widespread E85 so that I can run a high boost map. Another 40 hp.


No kidding. I run it, but there are only two places to get it within 20 miles.
 
2013-05-08 11:17:59 PM

CorruptDB: italie: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Salt.

You live near the ocean. Moisture got into your tank. The alcohol aided in drying that moisture as the gas sat. Happens with regular gas too, only not at as fast a pace, and with more sludgy results.

Lol, wut?  Here's an experiment for you: take a liter of water and dissolve 100g of salt in the water.  Put the water into a bowl and put it in a sunny place.  Once the water has evaporated, scrape what remains out of the bowl and weigh it.  It should be right around 100g.  Know why?  Because salt doesn't evaporate like water.  I live near the Great Salt Lake, if salt is carried along when water evaporates everything around here would be covered in a layer of salt.  There are several companies that extract the salt from the lake water using an evaporative process (put lake water into a pond isolated from the lake, let the water evaporate and go scrape up the salt that is left behind).  If evaporation led to salt vapor as well as water vapor this process would not work.


Do all the crazy evaporation experiments you want. It happens.

Not all bodies of water enhance the humidity of the surrounding air. A calm stagnant lake, for example, would be less likely to whip up moisture into the air than a large churning body of water like an ocean. True, salt does not evaporate into the air "like water".  That does not mean ocean air is devoid of salt molecules.

// If you'd like to learn more, please contact ANY mechanic within 100 miles of a coastline
 
2013-05-08 11:57:40 PM

Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.


I didn't know that was still even an option.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.

Partially yes, but it's also the best way we have right now to improve octane ratings without using lead.
 
2013-05-09 06:18:48 AM

Abacus9: Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.

I didn't know that was still even an option.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.

Partially yes, but it's also the best way we have right now to improve octane ratings without using lead.


Ethanol is not added to fuel to raise octane ratings. It is purely an oxygenate additive. I can get 98, 100, 104 u leaded ethanol free if I want.

And farking ethanol is certainly not a lead subsitute as lead actually lubricated and protected parts instead of stripping, corroding and dissolving them.
 
2013-05-09 07:17:51 AM

Psylence: Abacus9: Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.

I didn't know that was still even an option.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.

Partially yes, but it's also the best way we have right now to improve octane ratings without using lead.

Ethanol is not added to fuel to raise octane ratings. It is purely an oxygenate additive. I can get 98, 100, 104 u leaded ethanol free if I want.

And farking ethanol is certainly not a lead subsitute as lead actually lubricated and protected parts instead of stripping, corroding and dissolving them.


Incorrect. I sort of do this for a living. It is added as an oxygenate IN ORDER TO improve your octane rating. It's why they used to add the tetraethyl lead in the first place.
 
2013-05-09 10:30:00 AM
the lack of chemistry knowledge in this thread makes me want to find Jesse and shoot him.

-Walter.
 
2013-05-09 01:16:28 PM

WhiskeyBoy: When I was 16 I built a "hypermileage vehicle" for a SAE contest.  Our car was similar to the Edison2 linked above, and made 488 mpg on 85% Ethanol.  This is impressive, but it is still the wrong fuel for the future.

1 - Diesel fuels - the Diesel engine was designed to run on almost any combustible liquid, and can run on recycled oils, or fermented algae.
2 - Hydrogen - massively available, emissions are water, and it's already been done.

Pick one.

Batteries are terrible, they do a horrible job storing power and they get that power from (at least right now) the burning of OTHER fossil fuels.  Never mind their limited range and immense charge times.
Ethanol additives only reduce the power output from an otherwise fine engine, and older engine components and some non-OEM parts cannot accept ethanol.  Buying new cars is NOT environmentally friendly.  Look at the cash for clunkers disaster.  And no matter how much you want ethanol to exist in fuels, people are still going to want to own and drive their classic cars.


shortly solved for cheap in fact:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/alternative_energy/ 20 13/03/graphene_supercapacitors_small_cheap_energy_dense_replacements_f or_batteries.html
 
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