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(Fox News)   The new "environmentally friendly" high-octane E15 fuel that Obama is about to mandate for all cars may damage your fuel lines, destroy your engine, void your warranty, and possibly -- who can say for sure? -- kill you dead   (foxnews.com) divider line 273
    More: Scary, obama, Renewable Fuels Association, individual mandate, ethanol  
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9540 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 5:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-08 02:37:41 PM

Psylence: Might even look into getting a 55gallon drum delivered, so then I can run it in my FJ as well just to see the difference in mileage.


Why stop with a 55 gallon drum when you can get 600,000 metric tons?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/140663597/GASOLINE_89_AND_93_OCT AN E.html

/Alibaba is a source of endless entertainment.
 
2013-05-08 02:47:31 PM

OnlyM3: Baumli

Ethanol is only a problem in cars for 3 reasons:
1) If you have rust in your gas tank or lines (i.e. older vehicles And what segment of society is likely to drive "older vehicles"

Once again looking out for the poor. The party of compassion speaks. And like always, says "Fark the poor".


I love how you look for any post that you can twist into letting you shiat everywhere about liberals no matter how much into a pretzel you need to mangle it.
 
2013-05-08 03:33:14 PM
Not to mention that burning your FOOD SUPPLY for FUEL is always the best use of any food product.

/I like Corn Flakes
 
2013-05-08 04:32:02 PM
Acres and acres of astroturf!
 
2013-05-08 04:55:18 PM

italie: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Salt.

You live near the ocean. Moisture got into your tank. The alcohol aided in drying that moisture as the gas sat. Happens with regular gas too, only not at as fast a pace, and with more sludgy results.


Lol, wut?  Here's an experiment for you: take a liter of water and dissolve 100g of salt in the water.  Put the water into a bowl and put it in a sunny place.  Once the water has evaporated, scrape what remains out of the bowl and weigh it.  It should be right around 100g.  Know why?  Because salt doesn't evaporate like water.  I live near the Great Salt Lake, if salt is carried along when water evaporates everything around here would be covered in a layer of salt.  There are several companies that extract the salt from the lake water using an evaporative process (put lake water into a pond isolated from the lake, let the water evaporate and go scrape up the salt that is left behind).  If evaporation led to salt vapor as well as water vapor this process would not work.
 
2013-05-08 04:58:08 PM
smonter:Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?

Leasing is definitely on average better for the lessor than the lessee - they're in the business of making sure that is the case. The advantage to the lessee is that leasing removes risk to the individual: The largest cost of owning a new vehicle during its first three years is depreciation, and leasing locks in how much that depreciation will cost you. So if you know you will always want to drive a new car, leasing eliminates the hassle of resale and the uncertainty of your expected return on that sale.

By "best", in this situation I mean only "lowest depreciation over the first three years of ownership". Look at KBB 2013 Best Resale Value Awards: A car that retains 60% of its value over 3 years rounds out the top-ten list of the best (predicted) resale values, out of hundreds of models.

I will say that it looks like the numbers are much higher than they were 5 years ago. I think that is because production has been so low since the economic collapse that used cars are in low supply relative to demand, and so are garnering higher prices. In 2008, by my memory the best predicted 3-year resale values were on the order of 50%.
 
2013-05-08 05:26:20 PM

Enigmamf: smonter:Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?

Leasing is definitely on average better for the lessor than the lessee - they're in the business of making sure that is the case. The advantage to the lessee is that leasing removes risk to the individual: The largest cost of owning a new vehicle during its first three years is depreciation, and leasing locks in how much that depreciation will cost you. So if you know you will always want to drive a new car, leasing eliminates the hassle of resale and the uncertainty of your expected return on that sale.

By "best", in this situation I mean only "lowest depreciation over the first three years of ownership". Look at KBB 2013 Best Resale Value Awards: A car that retains 60% of its value over 3 years rounds out the top-ten list of the best (predicted) resale values, out of hundreds of models.

I will say that it looks like the numbers are much higher than they were 5 years ago. I think that is because production has been so low since the economic collapse that used cars are in low supply relative to demand, and so are garnering higher prices. In 2008, by my memory the best predicted 3-year resale values were on the order of 50%.


It also helps when the Feds offer a $7,500 credit for electric vehicles, which comes right off the top - and since Nissan wanted to unload their 2012 models for the 2013 models (which have 20% more range and 1/2 the charge time), they were offering an additional $5,000 off MSRP. With $12,500 off the top, most of my lease depreciation was taken care of before the keys were handed over.
 
Essentially, I'm leasing a $38,500 car at a discount price of $25,000. At the end of the 3-year lease, I can option to buy it for $19,000, or walk. I come out looking pretty good at $199 a month during the period of the lease (and $1k at signing). And as I said previously, considering I don't have to pay a cent for fuel, it it's not a half bad deal.
 
2013-05-08 05:50:19 PM

log_jammin: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/four-t h ings-to-know-about-e15-15096134

All cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components.

...

But the main issue is whether or not your vehicle will be covered under warranty for any damage caused by E15 usage, and in many cases the answer is no. GM and Ford have certified their own vehicles starting with the 2012 and 2013 model years, respectively, so some brand-new cars will have no trouble at all.

So in short, buy a new car if you want us to honor the warranty, otherwise we will blame any problem you have on E15, forcing you to eat the cost yourself.


I have a car I bought in 2003, and have been pulling regular maintenance on it to keep it running; I like not having to make car payments.  Now I'm expected to buy a new car because there won't be any gas available that won't tear up its engine?
 
"Cash for Clunkers" wasn't good enough for you, Obama?  You're not going to be satisfied until every American is in debt?
 
2013-05-08 06:22:56 PM

MrSteve007: It also helps when the Feds offer a $7,500 credit for electric vehicles, which comes right off the top - and since Nissan wanted to unload their 2012 models for the 2013 models (which have 20% more range and 1/2 the charge time), they were offering an additional $5,000 off MSRP. With $12,500 off the top, most of my lease depreciation was taken care of before the keys were handed over.
 
Essentially, I'm leasing a $38,500 car at a discount price of $25,000. At the end of the 3-year lease, I can option to buy it for $19,000, or walk. I come out looking pretty good at $199 a month during the period of the lease (and $1k at signing). And as I said previously, c

onsidering I don't have to pay a cent for fuel, it it's not a half bad deal.

36 months @ $199 + $1000 = $8164. They can probably finance a lease at 1%, so they're going to pay about $600 in finance charges. That means their break-even point on the deal is $17.5k: If the car is worth more than that at turn-in time, they make a profit; if less, a loss. If you take the lease-purchase option, they make a pretty good guaranteed profit, especially considering they have to do less than if you don't keep it.

Maybe you'll feel it's worth that extra $1.5k to own a car you know the complete maintenance and wear history on. Maybe the actual market resale value will be higher than that, and you really will make out on it. Maybe it'll be lower, and it'll be cheaper for you to buy one off the used market than to take the lease-purchase option.

Point is, it seems like a "reasonable" deal, not an overwhelmingly fantastic deal.

Re: "I don't have to pay a cent for fuel": You'll have to tell me again how you're getting this free electricity, I want in on that!
 
2013-05-08 06:43:42 PM
I can't tell if the headline is sarcastic or if Subby actually believes this (Poe's law).  The article never mentions Obama (even though it is Fox news, if they could blame Obama they would), and does specifically mention that this mandate comes from Congress.  The thread is full of people blaming Obama for their (hypothetically) destroyed engines.  Do you people actually believe this or are all the posts satire?
 
2013-05-08 06:46:50 PM

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.



I guess when they perfect the solar powered jet airplane.
 
2013-05-08 06:58:10 PM

Enigmamf: Re: "I don't have to pay a cent for fuel": You'll have to tell me again how you're getting this free electricity, I want in on that!


Well, I get to charge for free from work; at least for this year, the quick chargers around the state are free, and when it comes to all the electricity at my house, it comes from these:
fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net
/the first kWh cost me $25k - everyone after that was free
//full ROI on that first kWh in June of 2019
 
2013-05-08 07:42:08 PM
Doesn't Minnesota already mandate a 15% ethanol blend?

It's still a huge joke that anyone thinks this is some sort of energy conservation though considering the abysmal efficiency of corn based ethanol.
 
2013-05-08 09:26:27 PM
Meh. The vulnerable parts were switched to better materials years ago because OEMs have been hearing about the coming of E15 (and M15) since the 90s. This is slso driven by the tightened emissions regs and longer lifetime requirements driven by the EPA. Also, fuel systems have to be designed to go in vehicles that are sold worldwide, so they are already tested for stuff worse than this (Brazil uses E22-E100, other regions mix in methanol). If you are really paranoid, you can get kits to swap in the better material (nitrile to fluorosilicone or fluorocarbon; upgrade lines to multilayer nylon 12 or multilayer rubber).
 
2013-05-08 09:41:17 PM

vpb: Nothing.  Car engines have been made to use gasohol for years, but the laws don't apply to things like generators and lawnmowers.


Horseshiat.  You can't get anything BUT E10 around here.  Mandate E15 and your small lawn engine will have to be rebuilt every year.
 
2013-05-08 09:49:18 PM

ShawnDoc: remus: That using corn for this is a good idea. It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest. They use sugar cane in South America. There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.

The corn lobby is powerful, that's all you need to know.


That shiat has been gmo'd into non-foodom, and making fuel out of it is the best use at this point. I certainly wouldn't put it in my stomach.
 
2013-05-08 09:50:41 PM

darkone: Wanting widespread E85 so that I can run a high boost map. Another 40 hp.


No kidding. I run it, but there are only two places to get it within 20 miles.
 
2013-05-08 11:17:59 PM

CorruptDB: italie: Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Salt.

You live near the ocean. Moisture got into your tank. The alcohol aided in drying that moisture as the gas sat. Happens with regular gas too, only not at as fast a pace, and with more sludgy results.

Lol, wut?  Here's an experiment for you: take a liter of water and dissolve 100g of salt in the water.  Put the water into a bowl and put it in a sunny place.  Once the water has evaporated, scrape what remains out of the bowl and weigh it.  It should be right around 100g.  Know why?  Because salt doesn't evaporate like water.  I live near the Great Salt Lake, if salt is carried along when water evaporates everything around here would be covered in a layer of salt.  There are several companies that extract the salt from the lake water using an evaporative process (put lake water into a pond isolated from the lake, let the water evaporate and go scrape up the salt that is left behind).  If evaporation led to salt vapor as well as water vapor this process would not work.


Do all the crazy evaporation experiments you want. It happens.

Not all bodies of water enhance the humidity of the surrounding air. A calm stagnant lake, for example, would be less likely to whip up moisture into the air than a large churning body of water like an ocean. True, salt does not evaporate into the air "like water".  That does not mean ocean air is devoid of salt molecules.

// If you'd like to learn more, please contact ANY mechanic within 100 miles of a coastline
 
2013-05-08 11:57:40 PM

Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.


I didn't know that was still even an option.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.

Partially yes, but it's also the best way we have right now to improve octane ratings without using lead.
 
2013-05-09 06:18:48 AM

Abacus9: Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.

I didn't know that was still even an option.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.

Partially yes, but it's also the best way we have right now to improve octane ratings without using lead.


Ethanol is not added to fuel to raise octane ratings. It is purely an oxygenate additive. I can get 98, 100, 104 u leaded ethanol free if I want.

And farking ethanol is certainly not a lead subsitute as lead actually lubricated and protected parts instead of stripping, corroding and dissolving them.
 
2013-05-09 07:17:51 AM

Psylence: Abacus9: Psylence: Abacus9: Crap article is crap. All gasoline at the pump already contains at least 10% ethanol and has for years. Up to 20% can easily be used without damaging the engine. More anti-Obama fearmongering from Fox propaganda.

It's Fox news fearmongering, true... but tell my racing motorcycles that they can run ethanol tainted fuel. I've already had to rebuild multiple carbs because the floats dissolved from the ethanol.

Ethanol washes oil off of cylinder walls... ergo, if you have a rotary engine or 2strokes you are farked. Go find some leaded fuel. And most regular cars would need some degree of modifications to be AS RELIABLE as they currently are if the content of ethanol gets boosted. Injectors resized, computers remapped...  fuel system parts replaced.

I didn't know that was still even an option.

It's farking bullshiat and a handout to very well connected and lobbied interests.

Partially yes, but it's also the best way we have right now to improve octane ratings without using lead.

Ethanol is not added to fuel to raise octane ratings. It is purely an oxygenate additive. I can get 98, 100, 104 u leaded ethanol free if I want.

And farking ethanol is certainly not a lead subsitute as lead actually lubricated and protected parts instead of stripping, corroding and dissolving them.


Incorrect. I sort of do this for a living. It is added as an oxygenate IN ORDER TO improve your octane rating. It's why they used to add the tetraethyl lead in the first place.
 
2013-05-09 10:30:00 AM
the lack of chemistry knowledge in this thread makes me want to find Jesse and shoot him.

-Walter.
 
2013-05-09 01:16:28 PM

WhiskeyBoy: When I was 16 I built a "hypermileage vehicle" for a SAE contest.  Our car was similar to the Edison2 linked above, and made 488 mpg on 85% Ethanol.  This is impressive, but it is still the wrong fuel for the future.

1 - Diesel fuels - the Diesel engine was designed to run on almost any combustible liquid, and can run on recycled oils, or fermented algae.
2 - Hydrogen - massively available, emissions are water, and it's already been done.

Pick one.

Batteries are terrible, they do a horrible job storing power and they get that power from (at least right now) the burning of OTHER fossil fuels.  Never mind their limited range and immense charge times.
Ethanol additives only reduce the power output from an otherwise fine engine, and older engine components and some non-OEM parts cannot accept ethanol.  Buying new cars is NOT environmentally friendly.  Look at the cash for clunkers disaster.  And no matter how much you want ethanol to exist in fuels, people are still going to want to own and drive their classic cars.


shortly solved for cheap in fact:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/alternative_energy/ 20 13/03/graphene_supercapacitors_small_cheap_energy_dense_replacements_f or_batteries.html
 
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