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(Fox News)   The new "environmentally friendly" high-octane E15 fuel that Obama is about to mandate for all cars may damage your fuel lines, destroy your engine, void your warranty, and possibly -- who can say for sure? -- kill you dead   (foxnews.com) divider line 273
    More: Scary, obama, Renewable Fuels Association, individual mandate, ethanol  
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9542 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 5:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-08 09:56:51 AM  
Wanting widespread E85 so that I can run a high boost map. Another 40 hp.
 
2013-05-08 09:57:09 AM  

CeroX: Methane Nation: How America Can Become Energy Independent AND Environmentally More Responsible


CNG conversions can be done for a couple grand. Actually considering it for my Toyota FJ.. I like the idea of being able to fill the CNG tanks from the lines coming into my house. Methane is an interesting idea but I wouldn't be terribly enthused about being in a traffic jam surrounded by methane burning vehicles.
 
2013-05-08 09:57:43 AM  

Egoy3k: Psylence: I recommend Sunoco 260 GTX. It's 98 octane and has no ethanol. After cleaning out all the carbs and lines on small equipment around here, filling up with that made them run better than new. I now keep 5-15 gallons on hand at all times, especially since it's stable for a long time.

You must be running pretty high compression ratios on your lawn mowers and weed whackers if you need 98 octane fuel for them.

Granted higher octane fuel usually has more detergent and stabilizers in it but it still seems like a waste for a small engine. If you are keeping your fuel so long that you need stabilizers in it I would imagine you are buying enough at one time to add your own stabilizer and save a bunch of money.


One of my vehicles has 2 turbos, runs on 87 unleaded and the fuel system pressurizes the fuel to over 2000 PSI at the injectors. Not to mention it has the ability to modify the fuel and spark curve on the fly among many other parameters. And yes it's a rather popular vehicle, nothing anecdotal about it's availability.

Pablo's 1969 V-dub maybe sees 5-7 PSI fuel pressure at best, and has an antiquated fuel system though it probably originally had full rubber fuel lines. I'm sure some work had to be done to combat the ethanol attacking the rubber. Just making a point that a 1969 vintage vehicle can't really be directly compared to a modern day vehicle.

I think the point was missed. He purchased the fuel because of NO ethanol. The fact it has a high octane # is just a bonus.
 
2013-05-08 10:04:27 AM  

remus:   There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.


Support the use of Kudzu:
- Convert E from corn to Kudzu
- Convert corn subsidies to Kudzu harvesting start-ups
- create jobs in a new sector
- reduce overall corn cost by no longer artificially inflated demand

Oh wait. That last one will never stand. Corn Lobbyist will threaten to pull back 'donations'.
 
2013-05-08 10:06:44 AM  

CeroX: WALL OF TEXT WARNING:


Seriously? You really need a hobby

/tl;dr
 
2013-05-08 10:17:03 AM  
Yay! CSB time!

Back in 2005 I was taking flight lessons at a local airport (M02, for you pilot farkers) when I experienced an "engine out". We got the engine to restart and made our way back to the airport and reported the incident to the mechanics on duty. They gave it a once-over, but didn't find any issues. Next student who went up also had an engine out and made a good restart, with the instructor nursing the plane home. Mechanics tore down the engine and found shreds of rubber from the fuel lines plugging the injectors.
After some serious investigation it was found that the owner of the plane had fueled up on Ethanol-laced Mogas (High octane road gas), despite the warnings on the fuel ports that said to only use 100-LL (Low-Lead) gas. Thanks to that carelessness two flight students had engine failures that could have led to crashes or hard landings.
/CSB done.
//Ethanol usage in engines and fuel systems not designed for it can be potentially fatal.
 
2013-05-08 10:28:53 AM  
fark this.

E10 in my car vs "real" gas drops my mileage by >10%. I end up using more actual oil to travel the same distance.
 
2013-05-08 10:29:34 AM  

Enormous-Schwanstucker: prjindigo: There is one true statement in all of this.

If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.

The more alcohol added to the fuel, the lower the octane.  Subby is a retard.

I'd like to find a passenger vehicle with a fuel delivery system worth $10,000 though I suspect you were just throwing that number out for effect.
You may want to rethink the idea of adding alcohol won't bump octane. It does and I'm not going to debate it. I'll just leave this LINK right here.


I'll just leave this here
VW TDI catastrophic fuel failure and the $10,000 repair

/Walks away whistling.
 
2013-05-08 11:06:11 AM  

abhorrent1: CeroX: WALL OF TEXT WARNING:

Seriously? You really need a hobby

/tl;dr


That was a hobby... i built a methane digester out of a water heater. I got with pet owners from my area and set up a deposit for their pets' poop and combined it with a membrane filter to filter the methane from the sulpher and other impurities and used a compressor to fill a propane tank with liquid methane.

I used that to power a generator i converted...

It was fun, but i don't produce enough to fully convert my car and so it never grew more than just a hobby which i eventually kinda dropped because it became more of a hassle to find something to do with the methane i was making...
 
2013-05-08 11:42:57 AM  

Hollie Maea: utah dude: CeroX: The real problem is infrastructure.

the real problem is the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. you can't change the fundamental laws of the universe. energy density is a physical property.

FTFY.

No, that really isn't the problem.


dude, try burning a few gallons of n-butanol. you might fry your oxygen sensor but your engine will be very very happy and clean.
 
2013-05-08 11:47:57 AM  

Turbo Cojones: Enormous-Schwanstucker: prjindigo: There is one true statement in all of this.

If you go so far as to stupidly put gasoline containing alcohol into your DIESEL it will do about $10,000.00 worth of damage to the fuel system by the time you discover you were stupid.
Straight gasoline won't do that.

The more alcohol added to the fuel, the lower the octane.  Subby is a retard.

I'd like to find a passenger vehicle with a fuel delivery system worth $10,000 though I suspect you were just throwing that number out for effect.
You may want to rethink the idea of adding alcohol won't bump octane. It does and I'm not going to debate it. I'll just leave this LINK right here.

I'll just leave this here
VW TDI catastrophic fuel failure and the $10,000 repair

/Walks away whistling.


Splitting hairs but I was referring the fuel system only. A few months ago I did read about some VW TDI failures but that was due to an intercooler issue. But...grassy ass for the info. Sucks to be a TDI owner eh? :)
 
2013-05-08 11:50:02 AM  

Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.


This.  40% of the country's corn crop is currently used for ethanol, rather than for things like animal feed.

That scarcity of corn has raised the price of corn.

That increased price of corn translates to increased prices of things like, milk, beef, pork, chicken, you name it.  I know that in my neighborhood, I've seen the meat prices increase 50% or greater over the past few years.  Chicken used to be a relatively economical dinner.  Not so much anymore.

Using simple math, mandatory E-15 could result in 60% of the nation's corn being used for ethanol.  The simplistic conclusion would be to grow more corn.  Ahhh... but consider how much water is being used to grow corn?  I've seen figures ranging upwards of 1,000 gallons of water needed to produce one gallon of ethanol.

Or maybe we should start importing corn?  Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?
 
2013-05-08 11:56:11 AM  
A technology Brazil has been using successfully since the early 1970's, and the US doesn't have the technology to make it work in the 2010's?

Leave it to Faux News.....
 
2013-05-08 12:22:04 PM  
If you're lucky, you can find real gas near race tracks and airports.

Cessnas don't run on e-85. Should tell you something.

/shiat ruins 2 stroke motors
//ethanol destroys the oil film that protects the cylinder lining and piston rings.
///Seafoam will actually clean em out really well. worked on my boat.
 
2013-05-08 12:23:01 PM  

vikingfan73: Or maybe we should start importing corn? Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?


Or stealing water.
 
2013-05-08 12:25:45 PM  
I work on the automotive field. If a car is not built for ethanol running a higher percentage of that in your vehicle with hurt the gaskets in the motor (the ethanol vehicles run metal ones) it will hurt the injectors and the converter and that my friends is fact. O have to many repair orders to show yoi to prove that. The only why they say in the article that other places have not seen damage is that the harm is not instantaneous it happens over a period of time.
 
2013-05-08 12:28:18 PM  
Can we just speed up research on electric so that no matter what the original fuel is, it can be used in all electric cars?
 
2013-05-08 12:31:13 PM  
As an auto engineer, my two cents are:

The consumer is going to suffer slightly, mostly due to the institutional incompetency of some companies.  Some companies out there might have some really old engine design they've been making forever and feel needs an upgrade when gas goes from E10 to E15.  They'll screw something up in the process and have to pull in a bunch of recalls.  The other thing will be that companies who are redesigning their engines for other reasons (jumping on the direct injected bandwagon, etc) will blame any and all failures of their new product on E15 since that sounds ever so much better than "John in engineering can't work the design software properly."  or "We got cheap in the testing phase and a bunch of problems slipped through to production."  E15 will also be a lovely scapegoat for the "Well we shifted manufacturing to Outer Buttfarkingstanohgodthefactoryisonfireagain and quality went to shiat/they sent us fuel lines made out of dried rat gut".

I dislike E15 for the general principles of being corn based and consuming food while people start to death.  If we want make work, how about we pay people to go put the corn on a boat and drop it off in various third world countries.  Cellulosic ethanol holds a lot of promise actually given that you can make from lawn clippings but we still need more R&D time on that.  I'm actually very excited about the idea of coming up with regional level plants where all the parks departments drop off their lawn clippings and get back ethanol for their trucks in return.  Perhaps we could look at reaching the level where the yard waste from a city could power most of the municipal vehicles in use.  That's likely the future, not ignoring the variety of local fuel sources around us.  Biodiesel hybrid powertrains for the city buses and big trucks, a cellulosic ethanol/plugin hybrid for city cars, and pure electric vehicles for the smaller stuff.
 
2013-05-08 12:34:42 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: digistil: RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

Isn't there some group that's successfully built a energy storage device that fills like a transistor, but discharges like normal battery?

Um, that would be a capacitor.

The only difference between a capacitor and a battery (electrically speaking) is the internal resistance and the energy density.

The inherent flaw in a megacapacitor is that while a rechargable battery converts input electricity into a chemical reaction, the capacitor just holds electrons back. All of that energy can me released in microseconds if you get a short, crush the canister, etc.

If you are holding a car trip's worth of energy, that would probably leave a crater.


I think he is talking about this story:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/153614-new-lithium-ion-battery- de sign-thats-2000-times-more-powerful-recharges-1000-times-faster

It is still just in the laboratory stage, but it works by redesigning the anode/cathode to offer more surface area. So faster charge times than a regular battery and the same storage density as a regular battery.
 
2013-05-08 12:45:57 PM  

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.


How much do you spend a month on gasoline? My Nissan LEAF lease costs me $199 a month. I used to spend over $225 a month in gas in my 20mpg truck, driving 1,200 miles. When I factor in standard combustion maintenance, wear & tear, along with depreciation - it's far more economic for me to drive & lease an electric car. If you want to buy a LEAF straight out, they cost $21k these days; not exactly breaking the bank.

And when it comes to 100+ mile days, spending 15-20 minutes recharging off of one of these isn't all that tough:
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

/Likes living free of gasoline prices.
//recharges for free from solar power at home and work.
 
m00
2013-05-08 12:46:07 PM  
"It's about a battle for the barrel. Ethanol, renewable fuels, have been phenomenally successful over the last several years, and we are now 10 percent of the U.S. motor fuel market"

yeah cuz... it's been mandated to be included in gasoline at 10%.
 
2013-05-08 12:47:12 PM  

vikingfan73: Raharu: DubtodaIll: We shouldn't be using food as fuel for our vehicles. Isn't this push partly responsible for the jump in grocery bills the past few years?


Fun Facts: Corn is one of the least efficient ethanol producers, and is only used because of the corn lobby... Cat tails, the kind you see growing in ditches and at waste water treatment plants are far better producers of ethanol. There are tons of plants that don't use existing farm land as well that are great ethanol producers, kelp for example is a great producer of ethanol.

This.  40% of the country's corn crop is currently used for ethanol, rather than for things like animal feed.

That scarcity of corn has raised the price of corn.

That increased price of corn translates to increased prices of things like, milk, beef, pork, chicken, you name it.  I know that in my neighborhood, I've seen the meat prices increase 50% or greater over the past few years.  Chicken used to be a relatively economical dinner.  Not so much anymore.

Using simple math, mandatory E-15 could result in 60% of the nation's corn being used for ethanol.  The simplistic conclusion would be to grow more corn.  Ahhh... but consider how much water is being used to grow corn?  I've seen figures ranging upwards of 1,000 gallons of water needed to produce one gallon of ethanol.

Or maybe we should start importing corn?  Or do some nation building in corn-rich countries?


The nitrates used for the fertilizer come from oil byproducts and the insecticides used to protect the crop also contain petrol products, the pumps used for irrigation are diesel powered water pumps... I'm not saying that there's as much oil going into the Corn crops that are used to add to Petrol, but it's not oil free...

The corn/ethanol push is just another ploy to keep Big Farmers well subsidized. Corn is super cheap to grow per acre and the subsidies from the gov. provide Big Farmers/Big Corn billions in profits for no reason. Corn isn't the natural food for cattle OR flightless fowl, and feeding them corn creates hazardous conditions that promotes e-coli. Basically by denying the cattle the high fiber based diet they evolved the rumen for, the cattle's digestive tract has a higher pH level that is favorable for e-coli to survive and spread into the feces where the animals are exposed to and the manure is also used in fertilizers where it can spread e-coli to things like spinach (remember the spinach e-coli scare a couple years ago?).

So, in short, F* corn subsidies and the corn lobby, we don't want that shiat in our food or our gas tanks!
 
2013-05-08 12:50:39 PM  
It is NOT more environmentally sound!

* Alcohol has a lower energy content. You get WORSE MILEAGE running a higher alcohol content
* Farm vehicles and fermenting alcohol give off greenhouse gasses
*   Since ethanol contains 2/3 of the energy per volume as gasoline, ethanol produces 19% more CO2 than gasoline for the same energy
* We are burning FOOD while humans are starving.
 
2013-05-08 12:53:04 PM  

RedPhoenix122: One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


The other huge problem is range. In the Winter (which is long here in the NorthEast) the range is piss poor. Recharging takes a LONG time. Refueling a gas car takes only minutes.
 
2013-05-08 01:01:59 PM  

SpectroBoy: RedPhoenix122: One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

The other huge problem is range. In the Winter (which is long here in the NorthEast) the range is piss poor. Recharging takes a LONG time. Refueling a gas car takes only minutes.


You go on and keep telling yourself that.
 
2013-05-08 01:08:58 PM  

MrSteve007: SpectroBoy: RedPhoenix122: One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.

The other huge problem is range. In the Winter (which is long here in the NorthEast) the range is piss poor. Recharging takes a LONG time. Refueling a gas car takes only minutes.

You go on and keep telling yourself that.


I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...
 
2013-05-08 01:14:20 PM  

Psylence: I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...


Take her for a test drive.  Seriously.  Someone who is worried about losing too much enjoyment driving an electric vehicle is someone who has never driven one.  And I say this as someone who has never bought an automatic.
 
2013-05-08 01:20:10 PM  

Psylence: I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...



While I haven't test driven a model S yet, I can assure you that there is a whole lot of joy out of zero lag time of putting torque straight to the ground - without having to wait for shifts or the spinning up of an engine to peak output of RPM. I enjoy riding my Honda sport bike (which pound for pound, will out accelerate 99.99% of cars on the road), but the drivetrain feels downright archaic compared to the instant power of an electric vehicle.

Also, according to an upcoming Consumer Reports review (I listen to their blog), their Tesla Model S makes for an unrivaled drifting car. Road and Track put out a short video a few months of them instantly melting some tires. You can't tell me that doesn't look exciting.
 
2013-05-08 01:20:19 PM  
E-15 needs to be mocked the same way Hooked on Phonics was mocked.
 
2013-05-08 01:22:40 PM  

MrSteve007: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

How much do you spend a month on gasoline? My Nissan LEAF lease costs me $199 a month. I used to spend over $225 a month in gas in my 20mpg truck, driving 1,200 miles. When I factor in standard combustion maintenance, wear & tear, along with depreciation - it's far more economic for me to drive & lease an electric car. If you want to buy a LEAF straight out, they cost $21k these days; not exactly breaking the bank.

And when it comes to 100+ mile days, spending 15-20 minutes recharging off of one of these isn't all that tough:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 538x717]

/Likes living free of gasoline prices.
//recharges for free from solar power at home and work.


I bet the economics of a traditional car would trump your Leaf when you consider all the costs of ownership, not to mention the drastically reduced range.

How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.
 
2013-05-08 01:23:32 PM  

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.


Except that it's mostly corn-state representatives pushing ethanol, because the increased demand drives massive profits.

If you want to overlay a map of corn production over congressional districts, I would be surprised if a majority of corn is not produced in Red States.
 
2013-05-08 01:24:07 PM  
Blah, I really need to preview... "Red Districts".
 
2013-05-08 01:28:33 PM  

Enigmamf: Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.

Except that it's mostly corn-state representatives pushing ethanol, because the increased demand drives massive profits.

If you want to overlay a map of corn production over congressional districts, I would be surprised if a majority of corn is not produced in Red States.


Ethanol fuel was the "brain" child of the Midwest corn lobby and George W. Bush.
 
2013-05-08 01:31:04 PM  

smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.


I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.
 
2013-05-08 01:33:16 PM  
My owner's manual very explicitly says nothing past E-10.

So if I'm forced to fill up with E-15 and my engine shiats the bed can I sue the government?
 
2013-05-08 01:35:41 PM  

Lunchlady: My owner's manual very explicitly says nothing past E-10.

So if I'm forced to fill up with E-15 and my engine shiats the bed can I sue the government?


E-10 will still be available, nobody is forcing you to use E-15.
 
2013-05-08 01:36:37 PM  

Hollie Maea: Psylence: I offered to buy my wife a new Tesla model S and she turned up her nose at the lack of a manual transmission. Despite explaining that electric motors don't *need* a transmission, it was a no sale. Too much enjoyment to be lost in her opinion.
I can't say that I disagree with her either...

Take her for a test drive.  Seriously.  Someone who is worried about losing too much enjoyment driving an electric vehicle is someone who has never driven one.  And I say this as someone who has never bought an automatic.


MrSteve007: While I haven't test driven a model S yet, I can assure you that there is a whole lot of joy out of zero lag time of putting torque straight to the ground - without having to wait for shifts or the spinning up of an engine to peak output of RPM. I enjoy riding my Honda sport bike (which pound for pound, will out accelerate 99.99% of cars on the road), but the drivetrain feels downright archaic compared to the instant power of an electric vehicle.


They are supposed to be putting in a "Gallery" nearby in the next couple months, I'll definitely be swinging by to see what its all about. I'm a big fan of what Tesla is trying to do to the auto industry and car buying model as a whole, and would like to support him...
 
2013-05-08 01:36:44 PM  
E10 makes my bike run like shiat compared to pure gas. Fark E10 and fark the idea of E15.
 
2013-05-08 01:39:19 PM  

smonter: I bet the economics of a traditional car would trump your Leaf when you consider all the costs of ownership, not to mention the drastically reduced range.

How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.


That's the thing, at least in my area of the country, range isn't that big of an issue anymore - there are ~20 minute "fast" chargers about every 30 miles along our interstates (by my last count, 27 operational in WA State and 47 in OR). That's on top of the ~10,000 level II chargers in most urban areas and parks now (we're getting a level II charger at my office in a couple weeks).

The lease signing was $1,000 - which included the first month's lease, 15,000 miles a year, $199 a month - 3 year & option to buy the car for $19k (I got one of the top end $38k cars, the feds kicked in $7,500 off the list price)

After three years, I'll have spent $7,965 on the lease, and driven 45,000 miles (my commute is about 55 miles a day). If I keep driving a 20mpg, 8-year old  vehicle, and gas prices were to stay at about $3.75 - I would have spent $8,437 on fuel, and if I got an $40 oil change every 5k miles, spent an extra $360 on oil, plus probably an air filter or two - so lets call it an even $9,000. And lets not count depreciation or unforseen repairs on a truck that has 150k miles currently

In my case, it makes a lot of sense to lease the car. It's cheaper for me to have a brand new, top of the line EV and charge it - than it is to keep putting gasoline in my paid-off 8-year old rig.
 
2013-05-08 01:48:22 PM  

MrSteve007: smonter: I bet the economics of a traditional car would trump your Leaf when you consider all the costs of ownership, not to mention the drastically reduced range.

How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

That's the thing, at least in my area of the country, range isn't that big of an issue anymore - there are ~20 minute "fast" chargers about every 30 miles along our interstates (by my last count, 27 operational in WA State and 47 in OR). That's on top of the ~10,000 level II chargers in most urban areas and parks now (we're getting a level II charger at my office in a couple weeks).

The lease signing was $1,000 - which included the first month's lease, 15,000 miles a year, $199 a month - 3 year & option to buy the car for $19k (I got one of the top end $38k cars, the feds kicked in $7,500 off the list price)

After three years, I'll have spent $7,965 on the lease, and driven 45,000 miles (my commute is about 55 miles a day). If I keep driving a 20mpg, 8-year old  vehicle, and gas prices were to stay at about $3.75 - I would have spent $8,437 on fuel, and if I got an $40 oil change every 5k miles, spent an extra $360 on oil, plus probably an air filter or two - so lets call it an even $9,000. And lets not count depreciation or unforseen repairs on a truck that has 150k miles currently

In my case, it makes a lot of sense to lease the car. It's cheaper for me to have a brand new, top of the line EV and charge it - than it is to keep putting gasoline in my paid-off 8-year old rig.


It would seem to me you would have been better by a large margin to purchase a used car with decent mileage than the EV. That is assuming you kept the truck and didn't trade it in and you would still have a lot more value at the end of the lease. The other problem is what happens when you get out of CA, WA or Oregon? God forbid to get to a place like MT where you can drive 150 miles and there be nothing.

I don't doubt your leaf works for you, but you also have a second car correct?
 
2013-05-08 01:56:16 PM  

Enigmamf: smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.


Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?
 
2013-05-08 01:59:13 PM  

jaytkay: Lunchlady: My owner's manual very explicitly says nothing past E-10.

So if I'm forced to fill up with E-15 and my engine shiats the bed can I sue the government?

E-10 will still be available, nobody is forcing you to use E-15.


Available for how long? It's stupid that the government even mandates E10 since the reduced mileage and over pollution goes up by using that much ethanol in fuel. We would be far better off to let gasoline companies decide how much ethanol is needed in fuel as a anti-knock additive to meet spec.
 
2013-05-08 02:04:57 PM  

smonter: Enigmamf: smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.

Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?


Toyota FJ Cruiser master race here. Holding more value than anything after years of ownership!
 
2013-05-08 02:11:23 PM  

Psylence: smonter: Enigmamf: smonter: How much did you pay at lease signing? Leasing a car is one of the worst ways to purchase and I can't imagine leasing a car actually saving you money.

I don't think leasing is that bad... compared to buying new cars at the same interval as a lease duration and selling it. The lease mainly covers financing, and depreciation - if a $25,000 car loses 40% of its value in the first 3 years, that's $277 a month in depreciation.

And 40% is a fairly conservative number - usually the best cars lose 50-60% of their value over the first 3 years.

Leasing is almost always a losing proposition not that buying new is much better. Also not all cars lose their value that quickly. What do you mean by "best cars"?

Toyota FJ Cruiser master race here. Holding more value than anything after years of ownership!


I'm with you. I owned a 2008 Honda CRV new a few years back and purchased it new for $21,400 and sold it 26 months later (with 21k miles) for $19,800, so not all cars devalue super quick. Luxury cars seem to be the worst for losing value from what I've seen and the daily drivers not so much.
 
2013-05-08 02:20:19 PM  
So spring has arrived and I just replaced the fuel pump and rebuilt the carb on my generator. Bought a new chainsaw because my dad's old saw refused to start without a carb rebuild. Lawn mower started up fine again this year. Running all the gas out of the engines and treating the fuel with Sta-bil last fall didn't save the chainsaw or the generator. I'm guessing the lawnmower is slowly building up problems so in the next year or two I'll have to rebuild the carb on it too.

I found a gas station up the street that sells ethanol free gas, so I'll be running that through all my small engines from now on. The ethanol stuff is godawful fuel and doesn't store worth a damn. If you run your stuff regularly year round it'll be okay, but as soon as you store it for more than a month or two you end up with all sorts of problems. My buddy runs a small engine shop though, so it keeps him in business.

 If they increase the ethanol content I'm probably going to have to start running ethanol free through my truck as well. Though I'm guessing that source will disappear and I'll have to buy a new truck and all new small engines a spring or two after it hits the pumps. For now I'll run everything once a month at a minimum and replace the 5 gallons I keep on hand for power outages and such every fall. What a pain in the ass.

Some guy recommended a fuel stabilizer up thread... Star something or other. I'll keep that in mind, 'cause Sta-bil seems pretty farkin' worthless. In the manual for the chainsaw I just bought it said untreated ethanol gas will keep for a month, treated will double that time. Two farking months with an additive in it. So if I couldn't find ethanol free gas, keeping enough stored and fresh to run a generator for any length of time would be such a humongous pain in the ass.

And when I was at the local lawn and garden place to buy the chainsaw and generator parts there was a line out the door. Every person there was having problems stemming from ethanol in the gas. And I suppose improper storage. I guess we're all still adapting to the fact you can't store shiat over the winter like you used to be able to.
 
2013-05-08 02:25:08 PM  

Eddie Ate Dynamite: So spring has arrived and I just replaced the fuel pump and rebuilt the carb on my generator. Bought a new chainsaw because my dad's old saw refused to start without a carb rebuild. Lawn mower started up fine again this year. Running all the gas out of the engines and treating the fuel with Sta-bil last fall didn't save the chainsaw or the generator. I'm guessing the lawnmower is slowly building up problems so in the next year or two I'll have to rebuild the carb on it too.

I found a gas station up the street that sells ethanol free gas, so I'll be running that through all my small engines from now on. The ethanol stuff is godawful fuel and doesn't store worth a damn. If you run your stuff regularly year round it'll be okay, but as soon as you store it for more than a month or two you end up with all sorts of problems. My buddy runs a small engine shop though, so it keeps him in business.

 If they increase the ethanol content I'm probably going to have to start running ethanol free through my truck as well. Though I'm guessing that source will disappear and I'll have to buy a new truck and all new small engines a spring or two after it hits the pumps. For now I'll run everything once a month at a minimum and replace the 5 gallons I keep on hand for power outages and such every fall. What a pain in the ass.

Some guy recommended a fuel stabilizer up thread... Star something or other. I'll keep that in mind, 'cause Sta-bil seems pretty farkin' worthless. In the manual for the chainsaw I just bought it said untreated ethanol gas will keep for a month, treated will double that time. Two farking months with an additive in it. So if I couldn't find ethanol free gas, keeping enough stored and fresh to run a generator for any length of time would be such a humongous pain in the ass.

And when I was at the local lawn and garden place to buy the chainsaw and generator parts there was a line out the door. Every person there was having problems stemming from ethanol in the ga ...


For yard equipment nothing beats AV gas (check your local small airport) or Ethanol free gas if you can find it locally. Red Sta-bil is pretty useless but the green marine grade stuff is good.
 
2013-05-08 02:29:49 PM  
Honestly I am not exactly happy about this e-15 thing. I don't want to run e-15 in my motorcycle, as Suzuki has said it is a bad idea... but the problem is the blenders. If I want e-10 I have to wait for someone to fill up with e-10 in front of me or I am screwed. The EPA has said in order to "minimize impact on e-10" and misfueling they have set a 4 gallon minimum purchase. My tank is 4 gallons.... and there is absolutely no way I can run it to empty and fill up every time.

If they mandate e-15 then a lot of motorcycle riders are going to be screwed.
 
2013-05-08 02:30:02 PM  
VP also sells a "small engine fuel" in quart sized bottles that is ethanol free, and can be purchased in a variety of quantities.

Sunoco 260GTX or VP T4 is the only unleaded fuel I run in motorcycles and power equipment anymore, and its a damn shame. Might even look into getting a 55gallon drum delivered, so then I can run it in my FJ as well just to see the difference in mileage. For science!
 
2013-05-08 02:34:29 PM  

smonter: I don't doubt your leaf works for you, but you also have a second car correct?


Right now you kind of need a second car in a lot of cases for long trips.  But if you have one of the longer range vehicles like the Tesla, a lot of people take very long trips infrequently enough that you could get away with just renting a gas car when you need it.

But the technology is already here such that we could easily have EVs that would be able to go on any trip.  Basically a car with a 300 mile range would be completely sufficient as long as there were enough chargers available.  Today's batteries can charge up to 80 percent at 3C  For a 300 mile car, that's a charging rate of 15 miles per minute.  So, as long as chargers were available, you could drive indefinitely if you stopped once for 5 minutes to take a piss and once for 15 minutes to grab some fast food every 5 hours.  Again, the charging infrastructure doesn't exist today, but the battery technology is there TODAY.  A bigger remaining issue is that batteries are still expensive, so a 300 mile pack costs a lot.  But those prices are falling very rapidly.
 
2013-05-08 02:36:43 PM  

remus: King Something: remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two a Japanese company that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?

Toyota owns Lexus.

Thanks.  It's late, I'm barely awake.  Point is the same.  A respected company says not to use it in their cars.  Seems like it isn't just some crazed right wingers, it's real engineers with the science and testing saying no to it.

It's a horrible idea anyway, using all that energy to produce less energy isn't a good start, then it's less efficient so it costs more per mile to use it.  Plus, it diverts a huge amount of corn into this silly effort which causes our grocery bill to skyrocket because animal grain feed costs more, grain costs more, etc.

The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies


Those 'real engineers' seem to be lacking a little something called  data...

/If the article doesn't have a blue linky, it's bullshiat
//And I did not see a blue linky
 
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