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(Fox News)   The new "environmentally friendly" high-octane E15 fuel that Obama is about to mandate for all cars may damage your fuel lines, destroy your engine, void your warranty, and possibly -- who can say for sure? -- kill you dead   (foxnews.com) divider line 273
    More: Scary, obama, Renewable Fuels Association, individual mandate, ethanol  
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9540 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2013 at 5:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-07 09:13:32 PM  
Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-07 09:51:46 PM  

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Nothing.  Car engines have been made to use gasohol for years, but the laws don't apply to things like generators and lawnmowers.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-07 09:54:39 PM  
I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.
 
2013-05-07 10:36:43 PM  

vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.


The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.
 
2013-05-07 11:21:17 PM  
Don't we use some blend of ethanol in California?
 
2013-05-07 11:40:22 PM  
I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.
 
2013-05-08 12:02:02 AM  

cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.


One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.
 
2013-05-08 12:32:18 AM  

Dufus: vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.

The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.


You are off by an order of magnitude. Times two, even, when you account for the winter/summer blend changeovers.

If I were to run for office that would be one of my stump platforms. Decrease the cost of gas by streamlining the chemical requirements nationwide. Let each state set a standard for each octane and diesel, and bring down the cost of logistics in exchange for a 5% fuel tax (having talked to some people in the petro industries, I got around 10% as the most conservative savings estimate, so half of that is fair) to be applied to infrastructure investment.
 
2013-05-08 12:33:40 AM  
What would the world be like if all passenger cars just up and disappeared?
 
2013-05-08 12:37:15 AM  
This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry
 
2013-05-08 12:46:42 AM  

Lando Lincoln: What would the world be like if all passenger cars just up and disappeared?


We'd all be driving F150's?
 
2013-05-08 12:55:36 AM  

ShawnDoc: Lando Lincoln: What would the world be like if all passenger cars just up and disappeared?

We'd all be driving F150's?


Sounds like somewhere in Texas
 
2013-05-08 01:08:41 AM  

unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry


FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two Japanese companies that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?
 
2013-05-08 01:13:04 AM  

remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two a Japanese company that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?


Toyota owns Lexus.
 
2013-05-08 01:31:54 AM  
I had an 86 VW and its owners manual said that if you wanted to run 100% ethanol, that you should get a kit from the dealer or use unleaded every few tanks.
 
2013-05-08 01:55:04 AM  

Dufus: vpb: I guess I should add that alcohol breaks down many plastics used in things like fuel lines.  That's probably where your fibrous sludge came from.

Also, gasoline breaks down over time.

The engines in the 80's including small engines had no trouble with alcohol. We regularly ran various blends including home blends. Remember, that was when the idea of adding alcohol was first gaining popularity and the idea of locally adding home grown alcohol to stretch your fuel was popular and there were certain exemptions from the laws about making alcohol available as long as you denatured it immediately.

That ability to run alcohol based fuel in small engines is no longer true. It doesn't even run well in my vehicles any more and they are supposed to be able to handle up to at least 10% blends. We used to store gas (with alcohol added) for much longer with no bad problems as well. Today the E10 fuel oxidizes and turns to a varnish filled mess in about a third the time.The best I can figure is they are including several volatile esters that are meant to improve the efficiency or keep the gas and alcohol from separating (a problem reported in some of the original blends with moisture got into the container or gas tank) and those cause the corrosion and react to cause the gas to "go bad" when stored for any length of time.

Last time I heard there were something like 26 different mandated blends nation wide. Those blends are determined by region and time of year and the blends do not refer to gasoline/alcohol mixes, but other additives in the mix. it has to be those additives that cause the problem.

BTW, the sludge in my carb and fuel bowl was from corrosion from the aluminum parts that had turned into aluminum oxides.and the gas wasn't that old.


It's almost like the engines over the years have changed.
Old motorcycles from the 80's could handle any type of gas and anything through them. 
The newer engines are far more picky and have to deal with higher refinement.
Injectors now a days have smaller lines, finer channels and more to screw up. 
Also the petroleum companies love to add "cleaners" and other additives to their gas.

Also going back to the article. It's totally normal for cars to have restrictions on their fuel. 
I'm sure both my cars would handle the E15 fine, but I get why some would have an issue.
 
2013-05-08 01:58:03 AM  
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/four-t h ings-to-know-about-e15-15096134

All cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components.

...

But the main issue is whether or not your vehicle will be covered under warranty for any damage caused by E15 usage, and in many cases the answer is no. GM and Ford have certified their own vehicles starting with the 2012 and 2013 model years, respectively, so some brand-new cars will have no trouble at all.

So in short, buy a new car if you want us to honor the warranty, otherwise we will blame any problem you have on E15, forcing you to eat the cost yourself.
 
2013-05-08 02:00:17 AM  

King Something: remus: unlikely: This public service announcement brought to you by the Official Propaganda Arm of the Republican Party*.

*A wholly owned subsidiary of the Oil industry

FTA:  " Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15."

So, you're suggesting that two a Japanese company that are renowned for Quality and engineering are part of this vast right wing conspiracy?

Did you remember your meds tonight?

Toyota owns Lexus.


Thanks.  It's late, I'm barely awake.  Point is the same.  A respected company says not to use it in their cars.  Seems like it isn't just some crazed right wingers, it's real engineers with the science and testing saying no to it.

It's a horrible idea anyway, using all that energy to produce less energy isn't a good start, then it's less efficient so it costs more per mile to use it.  Plus, it diverts a huge amount of corn into this silly effort which causes our grocery bill to skyrocket because animal grain feed costs more, grain costs more, etc.

The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies
 
2013-05-08 02:08:03 AM  

remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies


what is the fraud exactly?
 
2013-05-08 02:40:46 AM  

log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?


That using corn for this is a good idea.  It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest.  They use sugar cane in South America.  There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.
 
2013-05-08 02:46:26 AM  
agree or disagree, that isn't exactly what anyone would call "fraud".
 
2013-05-08 03:19:51 AM  

remus: That using corn for this is a good idea. It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest. They use sugar cane in South America. There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.


The corn lobby is powerful, that's all you need to know.
 
2013-05-08 03:37:12 AM  

remus: we happen to have subsidize a crap load of it in the midwest


Fixed. We wouldn't happen to have all that corn but for the subsidies.
 
2013-05-08 05:44:25 AM  
I run on high fructose corn syrup, getting a kick etc...
 
2013-05-08 05:53:33 AM  
I don't trust Fox to correctly report the current time, let alone anything harder to verify.
 
2013-05-08 05:54:46 AM  
The end is nigh! Repent sinners, repent!
 
2013-05-08 05:55:42 AM  
I remember about 6 months ago there was a thread about ethanol and a few libs on here were claiming it it was never about helping the environment.  Where is whidbey for this thread? lol
 
2013-05-08 05:59:36 AM  

ShawnDoc: remus: That using corn for this is a good idea. It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest. They use sugar cane in South America. There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.

The corn lobby is powerful, that's all you need to know.


The jacked up part is that we use the food part of corn when we could be using the throw-always, like husks and stalks. But that wouldn't be as profitable for the corn industry.
 
2013-05-08 06:02:28 AM  
I like how most cars I see have a smudged fume stain (or whatever it is) right above the gas cap, which started when the ethanol thing did. There used to be a gas station that sold 100% gasoline about 10 miles from me, but they no longer do that. Now they only sell the regular stuff and "racing fuel" for about $6/gal.
 
2013-05-08 06:02:42 AM  
beestonia.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-05-08 06:02:57 AM  
Oddly enough, I was paging through a coworker's American Motorcycle Assn magazine yesterday, which ran an article/editorial (what article isn't an editorial any more?) concerning the same thing and coming down on the same side - 15% ethanol will void your warranty and destroy your engine.

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.
 
2013-05-08 06:04:24 AM  

Dufus: Strange isn't it that back in the eighties we ran gas-o-hol in everything from lawnmowers to motorcycles and never noticed a problem. I actually ran nearly pure ethanol a couple of times with no problem.

Today's alcohol based fuels will destroy a small engine in no time if not treated with extra fuel stabilizers and additives. What are they mandating be formulated into that stuff that makes it so corrosive? I've already had two chainsaws, two generators, and a riding lawnmower nearly junked because of that nasty stuff.

I went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


Only thing I can think of - Lead.

Back in the 80's fuel had lead additives, now it probably doesn't. What they replaced it with I have no idea.
 
2013-05-08 06:04:49 AM  
This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.
 
2013-05-08 06:05:09 AM  

giftedmadness: I remember about 6 months ago there was a thread about ethanol and a few libs on here were claiming it it was never about helping the environment.  Where is whidbey for this thread? lol


Are you suggesting that ethanol use is about helping the environment? Or are you just trying to stick it to the libs somehow? I don't think anyone but the corn lobby can actually spout the environmental claims with a straight face.
 
2013-05-08 06:05:44 AM  
I have read studies that by the time the already inefficient corn breads down into ethanol, add in the energy to grow the corn and move it around, you use nearly that much energy as you have created.

Save $.10 on a $3.50 gallon for 3-4mpg less on 10% ethanol, it just isn't worth it.  Might as well build a battleship and blow it up if we want people employed for reasons of employment.   Still probably has more to do with ADM.

Maybe it works for Brazil with sugar cane, but not for corn.
 
2013-05-08 06:06:39 AM  

Dufus: went to start my generator after Hurricane Issac and found white fibrous sludge clogging the fuel bowl and carburetor even though I ran it several times a month..What are they adding to the mix that we don't know about?


You experienced what is known as fuel gelling. That white, fibrous sludge was Paraffin.
 
2013-05-08 06:08:42 AM  
Nice one subby. You almost got me to click a Fox "News" link.

/almost
 
2013-05-08 06:09:40 AM  
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that realizes that oil is a finite resource and will run out eventually. Nobody else seems to be scrambling to find alternatives
 
2013-05-08 06:10:19 AM  
s21.postimg.org
E-85, the Ethanol Queen laughs at your unfounded fears.
 
2013-05-08 06:11:48 AM  
Replace Iowa as the first primary state. Problem solved.
 
2013-05-08 06:14:38 AM  
automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.
 
2013-05-08 06:14:40 AM  

remus: log_jammin: remus: The whole thing is a fraud led by the massively funded ethanol companies

what is the fraud exactly?

That using corn for this is a good idea.  It's one of the worst choices, but we happen to have a crap load of it in the midwest.  They use sugar cane in South America.  There's some grass that can grow here in the U.S. that's also supposed to have a much better ethanol potential, but we keep worshiping the use of corn instead of pursuing the much better alternatives.


It's been a while since I read up on it, but I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol.
 
2013-05-08 06:20:01 AM  
E-15 killed my puppy and raped my baby!

i28.photobucket.com
Thanks, Obama!
 
2013-05-08 06:21:24 AM  

rynthetyn: I could swear that I read that industrial hemp was supposed to be really good for manufacturing ethanol


ugh, don't get the hemp people started.
 
2013-05-08 06:21:34 AM  

Animatronik: This is classic example of liberals doubling down on a bad idea because they think it must be right.
Science is of no value to them unless it supports their idea of how the universe ought to be.

If that sounds familiar, its because this is a religious fervor that drives these things

Ethanol as fuel is too costly, does not add to energy independence, does not reduce CO2, and takes away from food production and exports.

There is no logical reason I can see for EPA to do this except to create the impression of doing something worthwhile while adding to the problem.


and years from now when absolutely nothing comes of this, you and other so called conservatives will completely forget just how wrong you are.
 
2013-05-08 06:22:59 AM  
Jesus. Farking. Christ.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-08 06:23:06 AM  

Southern100: automaticman:

On a side note about additives, has anyone else noticed the heavy ammonia smell that auto exhaust produces lately?? I thought there was something wrong with my car, but smell it all the time from other cars while on my bike.

The Atmos device requires 10% in order to function correctly and reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Higher ethanol concentrations produce the ammonia smell due to conversion process and kicking off the clone feed gas production process.


i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-05-08 06:23:39 AM  

RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


Isn't there some group that's successfully built a energy storage device that fills like a transistor, but discharges like normal battery?
 
2013-05-08 06:24:22 AM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: E-85, the Ethanol Queen laughs at your unfounded fears.


While she changes her fuel filter every 5-10k. Shop I go to tested an ethanol car for 5k and pulled the brand new filter and cut it open and compsred it to others. 5k and it was gummed with chunks of stuff and had this greenish tint.
 
2013-05-08 06:24:23 AM  

RedPhoenix122: cman: I wonder how much resources it would take to get us off of oil completely.

Electric cars are here but it is not economically feasible for most. Until the prices come down those kinds of vehicles will find little success.

One of the big issues is the cost of the battery.  If there was a way to make a low cost, high charge battery, they might be able to drive down the price point.


Another alternative: build a lighter and more efficient vehicle, that way a smaller and less expensive battery will move you just as far.

110MPGe on Ethanol, 350MPGe on Electricity (using XPrize metrics)
245MPGe EPA 5-cycle combined (Electricity)
 
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