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(Examiner)   Louisiana Supreme Court rules using state funds to teach kids Jesus rode a dinosaur is unconstitutional   (examiner.com) divider line 163
    More: Followup, Louisiana Supreme Court, funds, supreme court ruling, school vouchers, Christian Fundamentalists, secular humanists, Bobby Jindal, regulations  
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2862 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 May 2013 at 7:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-07 06:45:57 PM
Activist judiciary!
 
2013-05-07 06:53:34 PM
Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.
 
2013-05-07 07:00:38 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.


And they'll keep getting slapped down.
 
2013-05-07 07:07:56 PM
These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.
 
2013-05-07 07:12:09 PM

doyner: Activist judiciary!


Fascists in black robes!!
 
2013-05-07 07:12:09 PM

DamnYankees: These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.


[notsureifserious.jpg]
 
2013-05-07 07:15:32 PM

doyner: DamnYankees: These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.

[notsureifserious.jpg]


Here's what I'll say to that - when I was a conservative Republican, I was in favor of school vouchers and it was honestly, completely 100% for secular reasons.
 
2013-05-07 07:20:46 PM

Mentat: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.

And they'll keep getting slapped down.


Until they can successfully stack the courts, that is.
 
2013-05-07 07:22:18 PM

DamnYankees: doyner: DamnYankees: These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.

[notsureifserious.jpg]

Here's what I'll say to that - when I was a conservative Republican, I was in favor of school vouchers and it was honestly, completely 100% for secular reasons.


Should vouchers be extended to home schooling?
 
2013-05-07 07:23:55 PM

doyner: Should vouchers be extended to home schooling?


My instinct is to say no, since that doesn't even make sense. What does that mean - if you home school we give you free money?
 
2013-05-07 07:26:01 PM

DamnYankees: These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.


Good news, the Louisiana Supreme Court invalidated the law because under Article VIII, §13 of the Louisiana Constitution, MFP funds are to be distributed only to "parish and city school systems" and that funding private schools using MFP funds would violate this provision of the Louisiana Constitution.

Also, the Supreme Court struck it down because the bill didn't get the sufficient amount of votes to actually be passed.

Decision: http://www.lasc.org/news_releases/2013/2013-027.asp
Louisiana Constitution: http://senate.legis.state.la.us/documents/constitution/Article8.htm#% C 2%A713.%20Funding;%20Apportionment
 
2013-05-07 07:29:17 PM

RexTalionis: Good news, the Louisiana Supreme Court invalidated the law because under Article VIII, §13 of the Louisiana Constitution, MFP funds are to be distributed only to "parish and city school systems" and that funding private schools using MFP funds would violate this provision of the Louisiana Constitution.

Also, the Supreme Court struck it down because the bill didn't get the sufficient amount of votes to actually be passed.


Ah, that makes more sense, it being a LA State Constitution issue.
 
2013-05-07 07:33:45 PM

RexTalionis: Louisiana Constitution: http://senate.legis.state.la.us/documents/constitution/Article8.htm#% C 2%A713.%20Funding;%20Apportionment


Minimum Foundation Program: The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, or its successor, shall annually develop and adopt a formula which shall be used to determine the cost of a minimum foundation program of education in all public elementary and secondary schools as well as to equitably allocate the funds to parish and city school systems. Such formula shall provide for a contribution by every city and parish school system. Prior to approval of the formula by the legislature, the legislature may return the formula adopted by the board to the board and may recommend to the board an amended formula for consideration by the board and submission to the legislature for approval. The legislature shall annually appropriate funds sufficient to fully fund the current cost to the state of such a program as determined by applying the approved formula in order to insure a minimum foundation of education in all public elementary and secondary schools. Neither the governor nor the legislature may reduce such appropriation, except that the governor may reduce such appropriation using means provided in the act containing the appropriation provided that any such reduction is consented to in writing by two-thirds of the elected members of each house of the legislature.
--

Sounds like a pretty straightforward reading of the Louisiana Constitution.
 
2013-05-07 07:35:14 PM
If you want you kids to be taught that Jesus rode dinosaurs, then pay for it yourself and enroll them in a private school of your belief system.

/or just really fark them up and home school them
 
2013-05-07 07:45:59 PM
I dislike that the article poses this as a win for "secular Americans" as if it's a loss for religious Americans. It's not, it's a win for them, too. I'm a religious American, just not a mainstream Christian one. I don't think the government should be picking and choosing which religious schools should get its money. And while religious Christians may not like the ruling, it actually protects them, too, against the eventuality that some day *they* are not in the majority and holding the purse strings, so that some other religion can't divert government money to their pet religion.

TL;DR version: Separation of Church and State isn't just good for secular people.
 
2013-05-07 07:47:07 PM
That's a beer!

/when I get home from work in about an hour
 
2013-05-07 07:47:51 PM

Mentat: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.

And they'll keep getting slapped down.


But didn't Jindal say that they should stop being the "Stupid Party?"

Oh, wait:

http://www.nola.com/education/index.ssf/2013/05/jindal_promises_to_f in d_vouche.html
 
2013-05-07 07:48:39 PM
Well, looks like the Louisiana Supreme Court has evolved a bit since Edwards v. Aguillard
 
2013-05-07 07:48:59 PM

HighOnCraic: Mentat: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.

And they'll keep getting slapped down.

But didn't Jindal say that they should stop being the "Stupid Party?"

Oh, wait:

http://www.nola.com/education/index.ssf/2013/05/jindal_promises_to_f in d_vouche.html


Knowing Jindal, he'll probably ask the Federal Government for a grant...
 
2013-05-07 07:49:15 PM

Mentat: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.

And they'll keep getting slapped down.


SCOTUS already ruled on this. In 1987.

Edwards v. Aguillard
 
2013-05-07 07:51:13 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-07 07:51:15 PM
To quote Neil Tyson Degrasse,  I object to religion in science classrooms not because it's religion but because it's not science. And I object to private schools using public money not because they're private, but because it's not exclusively their money.
 
2013-05-07 07:53:26 PM
Tomorrow morning a louisiana republican will introduce a bill called "freely education our children" or "protecting our kids' futures'" that will allow them to ignore court rulings that don't measure up to the standards set by the legislature.
 
2013-05-07 07:53:38 PM
I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.
 
2013-05-07 07:55:18 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.


Except that they aren't.  Things get passed only for the next legislature to think again and reverse course (this time without the barriers to passage that impeded the original effort, so much faster this time) all the time.  Same with USSC decisions, the turnaround is only slightly longer on those for the really blatantly unconstitutional bits.

//Well, except when there's a lot of money involved.
 
2013-05-07 07:55:32 PM

nmrsnr: I dislike that the article poses this as a win for "secular Americans" as if it's a loss for religious Americans. It's not, it's a win for them, too. I'm a religious American, just not a mainstream Christian one. I don't think the government should be picking and choosing which religious schools should get its money. And while religious Christians may not like the ruling, it actually protects them, too, against the eventuality that some day *they* are not in the majority and holding the purse strings, so that some other religion can't divert government money to their pet religion.

TL;DR version: Separation of Church and State isn't just good for secular people.


Its not a separation of church and state issue, despite how the article and headline framed it, this ruling applies to secular schools as well.  The state constitution says "This money must be used for government run schools" and the voucher system would pull money from the state run school and give it to private schools (some of which may be religious), which is clearly in violation of the state constitution.
 
2013-05-07 07:58:03 PM
i39.tinypic.com
 
2013-05-07 07:58:50 PM
Wasn't this the voucher program that some elected lady went apeshiat over voting for once she realized it could be used for Muslim schools?
 
2013-05-07 07:59:22 PM

NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.


That's because the Catholic Church learned many years ago that guilt works far better than lies.

/have you called your mother recently?
 
2013-05-07 08:03:21 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Wasn't this the voucher program that some elected lady went apeshiat over voting for once she realized it could be used for Muslim schools?


GOP legislators aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.
 
2013-05-07 08:04:16 PM

RexTalionis: HighOnCraic: Mentat: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.

And they'll keep getting slapped down.

But didn't Jindal say that they should stop being the "Stupid Party?"

Oh, wait:

http://www.nola.com/education/index.ssf/2013/05/jindal_promises_to_f in d_vouche.html

Knowing Jindal, he'll probably ask the Federal Government for a grant...


And when it's refused, he'll accuse Obama of waging a war on Christianity...despite the voucher totally not being aimed specifically at Christianity at all, no sir.
 
2013-05-07 08:04:49 PM

NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.


It can be done. I don't know why it must be one or the other in the minds of creationists
 
2013-05-07 08:05:58 PM
"GOOD! Can't waste our tax dollars on children learning that religious bull-crap. They need to be learning this other bull-crap over here."

Consider, for a moment, the quasi-religious fundamentalist zeal with which we continue to blow money on our failed lower and higher education system. You could cut the irony with a knife.

Hey, whatever..."stay the course!"
 
2013-05-07 08:06:04 PM

DamnYankees: These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.


There was a story last year about a Louisiana private school that taught that the Loch Ness Monster was real and was proof that dinosaurs lived side by side with humans, and therefore evolution was a myth. They received support from the voucher program. Fark linked to it a couple times, as I recall.

I'll be damned if I'm going to support that kind of stupidity receiving tax dollars.
 
2013-05-07 08:06:13 PM

Gyrfalcon: NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.

It can be done. I don't know why it must be one or the other in the minds of creationists


Because of the Wedge Document, that's what.



the Wedge Strategy
 
2013-05-07 08:06:59 PM

fusillade762: Mentat: Some 'Splainin' To Do: Like they care. They'll just push forward some new scheme to do the same damned thing all over again because they know that it just takes  one time for it to be declared constitutional and they're golden.

And they'll keep getting slapped down.

SCOTUS already ruled on this. In 1987.

Edwards v. Aguillard


Oh look!  Scalia dissented.

shockedface.jpg
 
2013-05-07 08:08:23 PM

DamnYankees: doyner: Should vouchers be extended to home schooling?

My instinct is to say no, since that doesn't even make sense. What does that mean - if you home school we give you free money?


If you homeschool, we're giving you free money to teach your kids whatever batshiat sky fairy mythology you want.

THAT's what'd be awesome about vouchers.
 
2013-05-07 08:09:57 PM

Burning_Monk: NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.

That's because the Catholic Church learned many years ago that guilt works far better than lies.

/have you called your mother recently?


Something like 95 pct of the world's Christians believe in sciencey things like evolution. It is literally a few bad apples in North America that keep pushing this bullshiat, mostly to try to to establish some kind of civil rights type argument.
 
2013-05-07 08:10:31 PM

NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.


That's because, at least officially, Catholics accept Evolution Theory, Big Bang Theory, and so on; they merely view them as the mechanics God uses to do His thing, and they understand that much of the Bible is allegorical.

At least, as it was told to me, the few things that the Church actually accepts as Fact are Jesus's divinity, the Immaculate Conception, and something else that i really can't recall right now.

/I suppose "the existence of God", but you'd think that a no-brainer; damned if I can recall #3
 
2013-05-07 08:10:48 PM

Wayne 985: DamnYankees: These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.

There was a story last year about a Louisiana private school that taught that the Loch Ness Monster was real and was proof that dinosaurs lived side by side with humans, and therefore evolution was a myth. They received support from the voucher program. Fark linked to it a couple times, as I recall.

I'll be damned if I'm going to support that kind of stupidity receiving tax dollars.


I kind of agree with DamnYankees. I'm against vouchers on principle, but ostensibly these vouchers were going to both Jesus rode a dinosaur schools and fairly respectable places like a lot of Catholic schools. I don't know enough about the actual bill to take a huge stand, but as long as the money didn't only go to fundamentalist idiot schools, I don't see why it was struck down.
 
2013-05-07 08:11:53 PM
Criminal charges should be levied against anyone that tries to insert their superstitious nonsense into our government.
 
2013-05-07 08:11:59 PM

Gyrfalcon: NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.

It can be done. I don't know why it must be one or the other in the minds of creationists


Because they're not interested in teaching, they're interested in indoctrination, which includes suppression of anything they disagree with.
 
2013-05-07 08:12:30 PM

Wayne 985: I'll be damned if I'm going to support that kind of stupidity receiving tax dollars.


I agree, but that doesn't make it unconstitutional under the US constitution.
 
2013-05-07 08:13:25 PM

ShawnDoc: Its not a separation of church and state issue, despite how the article and headline framed it, this ruling applies to secular schools as well.


The reason it was unconstitutional was not a church & state issue, but from what I understand (which I admit is very little) the reason for the law was to give money to Jesus-approved private schools from the state coffers, which is bad, regardless of your religious affiliation.
 
2013-05-07 08:14:22 PM

DamnYankees: Wayne 985: I'll be damned if I'm going to support that kind of stupidity receiving tax dollars.

I agree, but that doesn't make it unconstitutional under the US constitution.


The federal constitution isn't particularly relevant here, though.
 
2013-05-07 08:14:26 PM

Wayne 985: DamnYankees: These sorts of thing leave me a little torn. Are we really comfortable saying that the government is not allowed to give money to people because they are likely to use it for religious purposes, even when the law is secular in purpose and design? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that should be constitutional.

There was a story last year about a Louisiana private school that taught that the Loch Ness Monster was real and was proof that dinosaurs lived side by side with humans, and therefore evolution was a myth. They received support from the voucher program. Fark linked to it a couple times, as I recall.

I'll be damned if I'm going to support that kind of stupidity receiving tax dollars.


Were you there?!

/jk
 
2013-05-07 08:14:31 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Wasn't this the voucher program that some elected lady went apeshiat over voting for once she realized it could be used for Muslim schools?


Yep.

Republican state Rep. Kenneth Havard objected to the Islamic School's request for 38 government student vouchers, saying he opposed any bill that "will fund Islamic teaching," the Associated Press reports.
"I won't go back home and explain to my people that I supported this," he said.
"It'll be the Church of Scientology next year," Democratic state Rep. Sam Jones told AP.
The Islamic School of Greater New Orleans withdrew its request for vouchers before the bill went to vote.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/louisiana_n_1593995.html
 
2013-05-07 08:14:38 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Gyrfalcon: NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.

It can be done. I don't know why it must be one or the other in the minds of creationists

Because they're not interested in teaching, they're interested in indoctrination, which includes suppression of anything they disagree with.


Yup. The principles of ID or Creationism aren't as important as trying to instill doubt in impressionable children. The religious know as well as anyone that you have to get them when they're young, so this Creationist crap is just an underhanded way to sneak Christian fundamentalism into school on the public's dime.

It's disgusting.
 
2013-05-07 08:17:22 PM

NeverDrunk23: I went to a Catholic high school. Had biology 2nd period and religion 3rd. Neither crossed into each other. Learned evolution in one, follow Jesus' good messages and don't be a dick to people in the other.


Catholicism specifically has pretenses of intellectualism and does not reject at least most of the well-known and superficial elements of modern science, something they learned the hard way via their dick-measuring contest with Galileo.

Now, if you get into details of doctrine it's the same old aggresively anti-science Christianity you'll find everywhere else (ask them if sexual preference is a 'choice' or about modern birth control methods, for instance, and you'll get a spiel that makes Loose Change sound like an erudite discourse with valid points), but they do at least make an honest effort to avoid picking that fight... mostly because they know from experience that they'll lose, but effort appreciated nonetheless.

ArcadianRefugee: /I suppose "the existence of God", but you'd think that a no-brainer; damned if I can recall #3


They have a bunch of the usual aliens/psychic power stuff that most religions have going on, so it's really more than three, but the miracle you're probably thinking of is Transubstantiation.
 
2013-05-07 08:18:37 PM

DamnYankees: Wayne 985: I'll be damned if I'm going to support that kind of stupidity receiving tax dollars.

I agree, but that doesn't make it unconstitutional under the US constitution.


Actually it often does.  Laws that are facially valid, but unconstitutional in effect are often enough to be struck down.
 
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