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(The Atlantic Wire)   The MBTA Transit Police officer that was shot by the Boston terrorists was actually shot by other cops. Oops   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 229
    More: Followup, friendly fire  
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15779 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2013 at 1:27 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-07 02:21:16 PM

PiperArrow: 99sportster: They DID shoot a "random university campus cop for no apparent reason".  THIS is not THAT cop.

They were trying to steal his gun. After they killed him, they couldn't figure out how to get the gun out of the retention holster.


I was quoting an earlier statement, and clarifying that THIS was not the university cop (as the other poster stated that they shot for "no apparent reason").  This was a TRANSIT cop. Two different people.  The university cop wasn't killed by friendly fire (as the previous poster had suggested).
 
2013-05-07 02:21:18 PM

Magorn: Aarontology: Don't worry. They'll still be charged with shooting that cop.

yep and rightfully charged with Murder One, because if someone dies as a direct consequence of your action while you are in the commission of a Felony, thanks to the Felony Murder Rule, it's exactly the same legally as if you intentionally killed them yourself


Someone didn't read the article or the thread. :P
 
2013-05-07 02:21:21 PM

PiperArrow: 99sportster: They DID shoot a "random university campus cop for no apparent reason".  THIS is not THAT cop.

They were trying to steal his gun. After they killed him, they couldn't figure out how to get the gun out of the retention holster.



Also
www.zahal.org
 
2013-05-07 02:21:28 PM
This never would have happened if the cops had more guns.
 
2013-05-07 02:22:17 PM

insano: Aarontology: Huh. I wasn't aware of that you can be charged for when someone else shoots someone.

Fascinating.

If you and a partner are robbing a store and your partner shoots and kills the clerk, guess what? You are on the hook for murder, even if you are only the getaway driver. If you start a shootout on a busy street and the cops shoot innocent civilians, guess what? You are at fault because you started the shootout. You created the dangerous situation. That is how the law does and should work.


Hell if you come into a bank with your realtic looking but fake guns drawn and the elderly bank teller drops dead of a heart attack from shock?  Murder One for you.
 
2013-05-07 02:23:20 PM

Noticeably F.A.T.: LasersHurt: There is NO WAY that the average gun owner has more training and practice than your average cop.

They sure as fark do when it comes to their guns. I've seen the shooting requirements for several forces, and they aren't shiat.


This does not support your claim. Please show me data on how often the average civilian owner trains, and how they train, compared to the average cop.
 
2013-05-07 02:23:20 PM
Which is exactly why we need a bunch of good guy dip shiats with AR-15s to come running to help stop the bad guys.
 
2013-05-07 02:23:22 PM

MythDragon: insano: Aarontology: Huh. I wasn't aware of that you can be charged for when someone else shoots someone.

Fascinating.

If you and a partner are robbing a store and your partner shoots and kills the clerk, guess what? You are on the hook for murder, even if you are only the getaway driver. If you start a shootout on a busy street and the cops shoot innocent civilians, guess what? You are at fault because you started the shootout. You created the dangerous situation. That is how the law does and should work.

sentex: Same situation if you rob a bank with a partner and the partner kills someone, you too can be charge with murder.  Even if you only robbed the bank.

So what if I rob a bank, and the bank president gets so upset he kills his wife? Since I created the situation which led to him getting upset, am I on the hook for her murder as well?


No. As an example, New York's felony murder statute says that it has to happen "in the course of and in furtherance of the crime or of immediate flight therefrom."
 
2013-05-07 02:24:25 PM

Noticeably F.A.T.: Wolf_Blitzer: imgs.xkcd.com

Nope. It's not hard to find, if you care to find it. I doubt you do, and I'm too lazy today to do it for you.


So in other words, its from the Department of Rectal Statistics.
 
2013-05-07 02:25:05 PM

Wolf_Blitzer: monoski: Theaetetus: VegasVinnie: another 200 rounds shot at a boat (on land and not really moving very fast)

On the contrary... At roughly 41 degrees N, that boat was moving about 785 miles per hour. Frankly, it's impressive that they were able to get off 200 rounds while it was in range.

Not to mention 200 rounds fired at an unarmed suspect.

That was from the earlier gunfight, the one where Tamerlan Tsarnaev died, where they most definitely were armed.


Look it up, the reports are clear he was pulled from the boat unarmed.  Being armed earlier in the evening does not constitute being armed when arrested.
 
2013-05-07 02:25:08 PM

MythDragon: Push the tab near the bottom. You're welcome criminals. Now please send me a portion of your future gains in the form of TF subscriptions


I'm going to join the USDA's office just to see if I can charge you with felony murder, or at least aiding and abetting.  And I think they also get free beef, so that's an added benefit.
 
2013-05-07 02:25:22 PM

Theaetetus: Magorn: Aarontology: Don't worry. They'll still be charged with shooting that cop.

yep and rightfully charged with Murder One, because if someone dies as a direct consequence of your action while you are in the commission of a Felony, thanks to the Felony Murder Rule, it's exactly the same legally as if you intentionally killed them yourself

Someone didn't read the article or the thread. :P


very true.  up to speed now
 
2013-05-07 02:26:25 PM

Theaetetus: Nope: (i) although you're a direct cause, you're not the proximate cause - i.e. it's not a reasonable and foreseeable result of robbing a bank;


I wouldn't say that one cop being so incredibly poorly trained as to shoot another cop is "a reasonable and foreseeable result" of... anything. I expect professionals to act like it. I know, silly.

and (ii) (in many states) felony murder must be a killing done in furtherance of the crime, like killing a guard, cop, or a cashier.'

One cop killing another cop doesn't meet that definition.
 
2013-05-07 02:26:57 PM

Noticeably F.A.T.: Nope. It's not hard to find, if you care to find it. I doubt you do, and I'm too lazy today to do it for you.


actually, you are making the claim, it is your job to provide the source for your information.  Until you do, we will just assume you are a lying piece of shiat with a political agenda.
 
2013-05-07 02:29:29 PM

monoski: Wolf_Blitzer: monoski: Theaetetus: VegasVinnie: another 200 rounds shot at a boat (on land and not really moving very fast)

On the contrary... At roughly 41 degrees N, that boat was moving about 785 miles per hour. Frankly, it's impressive that they were able to get off 200 rounds while it was in range.

Not to mention 200 rounds fired at an unarmed suspect.

That was from the earlier gunfight, the one where Tamerlan Tsarnaev died, where they most definitely were armed.

Look it up, the reports are clear he was pulled from the boat unarmed.  Being armed earlier in the evening does not constitute being armed when arrested.


Yes he was pulled from the boat unarmed, but I haven't read anything credible saying the boat was fired upon when he was apprehended. Just some eyewitness reports of gunshots which were probably the flashbangs the police used. If someone knows otherwise please show me.
 
2013-05-07 02:30:14 PM

fredklein: One cop killing another cop doesn't meet that definition.


Again, I can only use New York as an example but our statute specifically says the murder has to be committed by "another participant" of the crime. So a cop shooting another cop, or even a cop who accidentally kills a civilian, does not trigger the FM rule.
 
2013-05-07 02:33:11 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: Hearing a gunshot does not mean every officer who hears the bang is to unload his entire stash of ammo in the general direction of the sound.


And yet that seems to happen with surprising regularity.

Lenny_da_Hog: If you don't know what's going on, don't shoot a gun. If you don't have an authorized target, don't shoot a gun


That's why civilians* tend to have a lower failure rate. They tend to hold their fire longer.

They also tend to not be the one initiating the confrontation. The 'identify the bad guy' game difficulty goes down pretty fast when you're reacting instead of acting. The bad guy is the one shooting at you.
 
2013-05-07 02:34:15 PM

maddogdelta: Until you do, we will just assume you are a lying piece of shiat with a political agenda.


Go for it. I've got about as much invested in this thread as I'm going to, and care about your opinion of me about as much as you care about mine.
 
2013-05-07 02:35:02 PM
Duh. I heard them say it was blue on blue over the scanner that night.
 
2013-05-07 02:36:11 PM

fredklein: Theaetetus: Nope: (i) although you're a direct cause, you're not the proximate cause - i.e. it's not a reasonable and foreseeable result of robbing a bank;

I wouldn't say that one cop being so incredibly poorly trained as to shoot another cop is "a reasonable and foreseeable result" of... anything. I expect professionals to act like it. I know, silly.

and (ii) (in many states) felony murder must be a killing done in furtherance of the crime, like killing a guard, cop, or a cashier.'

One cop killing another cop doesn't meet that definition.


It wasn't what I was asked, which was whether a bank manager shooting his wife would qualify, so take your "not cops derp" objection and shove it.

Additionally, one cop killing another cop  isn't felony murder in some states that require agency or the killing to be in furtherance of the crime. It is in other states where any proximately caused death counts.
 
2013-05-07 02:36:52 PM

2wolves: So much for "trained professionals."

So. Let's talk about arming teachers again.


Or teaching Archers.
 
2013-05-07 02:37:48 PM

Wolf_Blitzer: monoski: Wolf_Blitzer: monoski: Theaetetus: VegasVinnie: another 200 rounds shot at a boat (on land and not really moving very fast)

On the contrary... At roughly 41 degrees N, that boat was moving about 785 miles per hour. Frankly, it's impressive that they were able to get off 200 rounds while it was in range.

Not to mention 200 rounds fired at an unarmed suspect.

That was from the earlier gunfight, the one where Tamerlan Tsarnaev died, where they most definitely were armed.

Look it up, the reports are clear he was pulled from the boat unarmed.  Being armed earlier in the evening does not constitute being armed when arrested.

Yes he was pulled from the boat unarmed, but I haven't read anything credible saying the boat was fired upon when he was apprehended. Just some eyewitness reports of gunshots which were probably the flashbangs the police used. If someone knows otherwise please show me.


www.bellenews.com
Those aren't barnacles.
 
2013-05-07 02:38:27 PM

insano: Aarontology: Huh. I wasn't aware of that you can be charged for when someone else shoots someone.

Fascinating.

If you and a partner are robbing a store and your partner shoots and kills the clerk, guess what? You are on the hook for murder, even if you are only the getaway driver. If you start a shootout on a busy street and the cops shoot innocent civilians, guess what? You are at fault because you started the shootout. You created the dangerous situation. That is how the law does and should work.


Even better, you are an unarmed lookout while your partner is robbing the store. The clerk grabs your partner's gun and shoots him dead. The clerk has no charges, justifiable self defense. You are charged with, yes, felony murder of your partner in crime.

/not sure if applicable in all, but at least in some states with felony murder laws
 
2013-05-07 02:38:58 PM

Theaetetus: Wolf_Blitzer: monoski: Wolf_Blitzer: monoski: Theaetetus: VegasVinnie: another 200 rounds shot at a boat (on land and not really moving very fast)

On the contrary... At roughly 41 degrees N, that boat was moving about 785 miles per hour. Frankly, it's impressive that they were able to get off 200 rounds while it was in range.

Not to mention 200 rounds fired at an unarmed suspect.

That was from the earlier gunfight, the one where Tamerlan Tsarnaev died, where they most definitely were armed.

Look it up, the reports are clear he was pulled from the boat unarmed.  Being armed earlier in the evening does not constitute being armed when arrested.

Yes he was pulled from the boat unarmed, but I haven't read anything credible saying the boat was fired upon when he was apprehended. Just some eyewitness reports of gunshots which were probably the flashbangs the police used. If someone knows otherwise please show me.

[www.bellenews.com image 634x843]
Those aren't barnacles.


I stand corrected. Cheers!
 
2013-05-07 02:39:43 PM

rcw00: insano: Aarontology: Huh. I wasn't aware of that you can be charged for when someone else shoots someone.

Fascinating.

If you and a partner are robbing a store and your partner shoots and kills the clerk, guess what? You are on the hook for murder, even if you are only the getaway driver. If you start a shootout on a busy street and the cops shoot innocent civilians, guess what? You are at fault because you started the shootout. You created the dangerous situation. That is how the law does and should work.

Even better, you are an unarmed lookout while your partner is robbing the store. The clerk grabs your partner's gun and shoots him dead. The clerk has no charges, justifiable self defense. You are charged with, yes, felony murder of your partner in crime.

/not sure if applicable in all, but at least in some states with felony murder laws


Just some. Some states have narrowed the rule to exclude killings by non-parties or killings made opposing commission of or flight from the crime.
 
2013-05-07 02:40:37 PM

fredklein: One cop killing another cop doesn't meet that definition.


look, whether the entire Boston clusterfark is an example of proud incompetence isn't the point (it was)

the shootout was directly part of the crime(s) committed, and if--hypothetically--Officer Friendly Fire had indeed died, the surviving terror bro should be charged with felony murder

prosecutors do overstep their the letter of the law sometimes (oftenish) when bringing charges, but that would not be the case here

and felony murder statutes don't give police the free reign to just randomly shoot someone deliberately, probably not even recklessly, but negligence...i think that may be on the safe side of the blue line

we could discuss the difference between the letter of the law and its application, and i'm sure somebody will make those points clearly, coherently and thoughtfully in this thread before it closes....
 
2013-05-07 02:40:52 PM

maddogdelta: Wolf_Blitzer: That's like trusting a pilot to fly a plane because he "looks like an alright guy".

Or like handing over the pilot's seat to a kid with 10 yours in MS Flight Simulator...


MS Flight Sim used to count as actual hours at the controls.

It might still.
 
2013-05-07 02:41:10 PM
"There's always a fjord"

images4.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-05-07 02:41:16 PM
From what I have learned from Fark threads about normal citizens and cops:
1) your typical concealed carrier will have way more range time than your typical cop
2) because of more range time, your typical concealed carrier will be a crack shot compared to a cop

Therefore, to prevent innocent people getting hit in a shootout, just get rid of all cops and make it mandatory that every US citizen (that is a non-felon) conceal carry.

/amirite?
 
2013-05-07 02:41:21 PM

Aarontology: Would I, as a citizen, be immune from the consequences like the cop who shot the other cop, if I happened to be passing by a shootout, decided to use my CCR rights to aid the cops, but accidentally ended up shooting one of them or an innocent bystander?


If they ask you to assist, you're probably fine.

If you just whip out a gun during a police shootout, you'll probably be shot.
 
2013-05-07 02:41:41 PM

Cork on Fork: Again, I can only use New York as an example but our statute specifically says the murder has to be committed by "another participant" of the crime. So a cop shooting another cop, or even a cop who accidentally kills a civilian, does not trigger the FM rule.


glad I only had to take the NY bar exam once (and that I don't work criminal law)
 
2013-05-07 02:42:21 PM
 
2013-05-07 02:43:09 PM

Aarontology: Would I, as a citizen, be immune from the consequences like the cop who shot the other cop, if I happened to be passing by a shootout, decided to use my CCR rights to aid the cops, but accidentally ended up shooting one of them or an innocent bystander?


No, those rules are for cops, not little people.
 
2013-05-07 02:45:33 PM

VegasVinnie: You can color me unimpressed.  Three hundred outgoing rounds in an attempt to kill a couple of idiots - and they only manage to partially succeed because one kid runs over the other as he drives away.  Throw in shooting your own guy and I'd say that was a pretty big failure overall.  Plus, another 200 rounds shot at a boat (on land and not really moving very fast) that has one unarmed teenager inside, and they still failed to kill him.  That's five hundred bullets spent trying to kill two morons and only managing to kill one by luck.  I am truly amazed they didn't manage to kill any other Boston residents.  This inept, bumbling execution squad behavior we've seen here and with Dorner is really starting to get old.


Yea, I remember drinking somewhere the night they whole boat thing went down and asking "what the fark are they shooting at, they better have like 10 ten bodies when they're done"... then the kid comes out of the boat. Alive!
 
2013-05-07 02:45:55 PM

PsyLord: From what I have learned from Fark threads about normal citizens and cops:
1) your typical concealed carrier will have way more range time than your typical cop
2) because of more range time, your typical concealed carrier will be a crack shot compared to a cop

Therefore, to prevent innocent people getting hit in a shootout, just get rid of all cops and make it mandatory that every US citizen (that is a non-felon) conceal carry.

/amirite?


I find it amusing that some people think that shooting at a range or shooting beer cans in a field is the same as shooting at an armed suspect that is shooting at you.
 
2013-05-07 02:47:25 PM
Well at least someone in the Boston PD can always get a job with the LAPD if things don't work out.
 
2013-05-07 02:50:03 PM
When will someone invent the butt gun? So you can fire at your enemies while you run away. In situations like those, it's easy to squeeze off a few rounds.
 
2013-05-07 02:50:11 PM

ongbok: PsyLord: From what I have learned from Fark threads about normal citizens and cops:
1) your typical concealed carrier will have way more range time than your typical cop
2) because of more range time, your typical concealed carrier will be a crack shot compared to a cop

Therefore, to prevent innocent people getting hit in a shootout, just get rid of all cops and make it mandatory that every US citizen (that is a non-felon) conceal carry.

/amirite?

I find it amusing that some people think that shooting at a range or shooting beer cans in a field is the same as shooting at an armed suspect that is shooting at you.


At some of the better police and civillian acadamys they actually get real live armed felons and release them onto a 10 acre cityscape that the students have to make it through before graduation.
 
2013-05-07 02:52:08 PM

insano: If you start a shootout on a busy street and the cops shoot innocent civilians, guess what? You are at fault because you started the shootout.


So now I want to become a cop and wait for some jackass to pull a knife on me or something, then I'll get to mow down an entire bingo hall full of people and hey - not my fault! :D

Why is it that we can't hold responsible the people who are ACTUALLY responsible?
=Smidge=
 
2013-05-07 02:52:58 PM

doyner: I realize that I don't have a GED in Law


You are awarded that when you begin your Fark account. Along with your GED in medicine, political science, the arts, etc. Just being on Fark makes you an expert on any conceivable subject. Stretch your wings, good Doctor, and soar with the eagles.
 
2013-05-07 02:53:15 PM

Smidge204: insano: If you start a shootout on a busy street and the cops shoot innocent civilians, guess what? You are at fault because you started the shootout.

So now I want to become a cop and wait for some jackass to pull a knife on me or something, then I'll get to mow down an entire bingo hall full of people and hey - not my fault! :D

Why is it that we can't hold responsible the people who are ACTUALLY responsible?
=Smidge=


Because that would be personal responsibility.  Can't have that, instead we sue the bars when some jackass drinks too much and kills someone.
 
2013-05-07 02:57:49 PM

Snuffybud: The Muthaship: doyner: I realize that I don't have a GED in Law, but I seem to remember that murder requires a death to occur.

Correct.  I didn't read the article, but I thought they said in the initial reports that an MIT campus cop got killed.

Even if you didn't rtfa, the headline here is "The MBTA Transit Police officer that was shot by the Boston terrorists was actually shot by other cops. Oops". Kinda a clue there.


Now we are expected to at least read the headline before commenting? What is this place turning into??
 
2013-05-07 02:57:57 PM
Uh, let's remember the cops believed the two men had already blown up a couple hundred people, killed several and just finished shooting a university policeman in the face until he died.

I can understand them not following their training to the letter.
 
2013-05-07 03:02:16 PM

Noticeably F.A.T.: A guy who carries has several key differences from the police. They made a decision to carry, and know that requires a lot of responsibility.


ROFL.

Oh wait you are serious

Dies of laughter.

/well figuratively, otherwise I wouldn't still be typ
 
2013-05-07 03:03:13 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-07 03:04:39 PM
Finally, someone found a way to shiat on the cops in Boston.
I knew Fark would not stand for praise for any cops.
 
2013-05-07 03:12:25 PM

doyner: The Muthaship: Felony murder.

sentex: Wrong.  Felony Murder Rule


FTFA: "Donahue is doing fine."

I realize that I don't have a GED in Law, but I seem to remember that murder requires a death to occur.


I could be wrong but it seems I read something once about an accomplice dying during the commission of a felony and the surviving felon being charged with the murder of his own accomplice. I think this little coward would be crushed if he were to be charged with his brother's murder.
 
2013-05-07 03:12:35 PM

Begoggle: Finally, someone found a way to shiat on the cops in Boston.
I knew Fark would not stand for praise for any cops.


Yeah. To hell with actually analyzing what happened. We need more infallible heros in uniforms.
 
2013-05-07 03:13:23 PM
static.greatbigcanvas.com

/Somebody missed the memo
 
2013-05-07 03:14:10 PM

brantgoose: I was wondering why a couple of guys said in news reports to be unarmed, which is to say  without guns, would shoot a random university campus cop for no apparent reason.

Now it makes some sense.

Oops! Our bad!

The only way to protect America from terrorists without guns is cops without guns. Arm the police with pressure cookers. They blow up spontaneous all the time, it is true, but apparently they must be added to the list of things that free people with massive arms and ammo stockpiles can not have for their own safety, like shampoo bottles that hold more than 3 oz., and shoes, and box cutters, and nail clippers., and those tiny little screwdrivers that you get in eyeglass repair kits and that look like accessories for Do It Yourself Barbie.


Different cop. And the fleeing suspects were heavily armed. Nothing in this post makes sense.
 
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