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(Uproxx)   Theory: The NRA Convention only exists to give Jon Stewart and The Daily Show endless amounts of material   (uproxx.com) divider line 351
    More: Amusing, NRA, Ted Cruz, political convention  
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11047 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2013 at 12:56 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-07 06:52:28 PM
ciberido:
The "fire in a crowded theater" argument is a perfectly valid argument unless you want to take the absolutist position that one person's rights always trump all other considerations, and a civil society built on such an absolutist position simply cannot last.

So you're saying your 'right to feel safe' trumps all my rights?

Sounds absolutist.

Now, if we surgically muted you to prevent the possibility that you might yell fire in a theater, then you'd have a accurate analogy to what you want to do to my rights to own firearms.
 
2013-05-07 06:53:15 PM

cameroncrazy1984: BraveNewCheneyWorld: cameroncrazy1984: BraveNewCheneyWorld: impaler: BraveNewCheneyWorld: No, the "fire in a theater" argument is not valid.  Yelling fire in a theater is only illegal when there is no fire, and therefore causes unnecessary panic and danger to people.  That means that yelling fire in a theater is not itself an illegal act,  it is the irresponsible use of that speech which is illegal.  Gun bans and other restrictions on the other hand, are very different, as they make guns illegal regardless of responsible use.

Exactly. People should be allowed to buy rocket propelled grenades, as long as they don't use them irresponsibly.

You certainly trust the military and police with far more dangerous items.  What makes them so incapable of using such items irresponsibly?  What makes them better than regular law abiding citizens?

Mainly? Training, identification and a stricter legal recourse when those firearms are used improperly. Have you never heard of the UCMJ?

So you're ok with civilians owning these weapons if they're allowed to take the same courses?  Also, there's worse penalties for illegal use of weapons than lethal injection?

Sure, as long as they are treated exactly the same as the military and police. That means investigation every time they discharge their weapon and a tribunal hearing or court martial.


Yeah, because people are allowed to run around shooting in the streets without trial.  Are you delusional?
 
2013-05-07 06:58:07 PM
Anyway, here's a reference to some of the many amendments on gun control the Senate failed to pass on 4/17 and 4/18
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/294649-senate-to-contin ue -amendment-votes-thursday

There's a bit more of a breakdown of it here (at least for 4/17) but I'm too lazy to hunt down all this crap. Yeah, this site is a bit biased but the amendements are the amendments:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/04/foghorn/latest-updates-on-t od ays-senate-gun-control-amendments/

Just about background checks, indeed.
 
2013-05-07 07:00:40 PM

Doom MD: My arguments are right in front of your face, you just can't read the paragraph properly


Oh no, I read the paragraph properly. I'm just wondering what Andrew Cuomo is doing in a discussion about legislation in front of the US Senate. As far as I'm aware, he's my governor. I'm just not sure what the opinion of Andrew Cuomo has to do with a bill that was recently voted down by the Senate. Perhaps you could expound upon that for me?
 
2013-05-07 07:01:24 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Yeah, because people are allowed to run around shooting in the streets without trial.  Are you delusional?


So you don't understand the difference between a jury trial and a court martial then.
 
2013-05-07 07:07:32 PM
Clearly, because the governor of New York is ON RECORD saying something is on the table, that MUST MEAN that everyone and every bill asking for universal background checks just wants to take all yer guns, right? I mean, that appears to be what you're implying.
 
2013-05-07 07:08:59 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Doom MD: My arguments are right in front of your face, you just can't read the paragraph properly

Oh no, I read the paragraph properly. I'm just wondering what Andrew Cuomo is doing in a discussion about legislation in front of the US Senate. As far as I'm aware, he's my governor. I'm just not sure what the opinion of Andrew Cuomo has to do with a bill that was recently voted down by the Senate. Perhaps you could expound upon that for me?


Cuomo is a very visible and vocal gun-control advocate, to the point his SAFE Act is presumed to be an attempt to make his bid for the presidency. Legislation is being pushed on all levels of government in this area. You can focus on my Feinstein video if you wish to limit the discussion to that of federal legislation.
 
2013-05-07 07:13:12 PM

Doom MD: Legislation is being pushed on all levels of government in this area.


Okay, name one bill in the US congress that is being proposed to confiscate all firearms. What's the number and title?
 
2013-05-07 07:13:43 PM

cameroncrazy1984: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Yeah, because people are allowed to run around shooting in the streets without trial.  Are you delusional?

So you don't understand the difference between a jury trial and a court martial then.


First of all, members of the military aren't court-martialed every time they discharge their weapon.  Also, I'd LOVE to hear what you think the difference would be.  Specifically, why you would suddenly trust civilians with rocket launchers if they were tried under this system, and not our regular courts.
 
2013-05-07 07:16:35 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: First of all, members of the military aren't court-martialed every time they discharge their weapon


No, but the discussion was military  and police, and police officers most certainly are investigated every time they discharge their weapons.

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Specifically, why you would suddenly trust civilians with rocket launchers if they were tried under this system, and not our regular courts.


Well, we trust our military, right? I would trust them if they reported to a chain of command and adhered to the UCMJ. I don't see why it would be much different, then.
 
2013-05-07 07:17:14 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Doom MD: Legislation is being pushed on all levels of government in this area.

Okay, name one bill in the US congress that is being proposed to confiscate all firearms. What's the number and title?


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-05-07 07:23:44 PM

Doom MD: cameroncrazy1984: Doom MD: Legislation is being pushed on all levels of government in this area.

Okay, name one bill in the US congress that is being proposed to confiscate all firearms. What's the number and title?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x200]


That's what everyone is doing when they read your posts.  You obviously really love your guns but don't know shiat about the gun laws that were proposed.  Another moran making the pro-gun people look like retards.  Replying with insults just makes you look like a bigger idiot.
 
2013-05-07 07:25:57 PM
It amazes me how Ted Cruz can stand up there and bullshiat those people to their faces, contradicting himself just three minutes apart, and they eat it up.  They have completely lost the ability to think critically.
 
2013-05-07 07:37:43 PM

CynicalLA: Doom MD: cameroncrazy1984: Doom MD: Legislation is being pushed on all levels of government in this area.

Okay, name one bill in the US congress that is being proposed to confiscate all firearms. What's the number and title?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x200]

That's what everyone is doing when they read your posts.  You obviously really love your guns but don't know shiat about the gun laws that were proposed.  Another moran making the pro-gun people look like retards.  Replying with insults just makes you look like a bigger idiot.

Thanks for backing up your alt, but the legislation is still dead as it ever was.
 
2013-05-07 07:48:33 PM

BayouOtter: ciberido:
The "fire in a crowded theater" argument is a perfectly valid argument unless you want to take the absolutist position that one person's rights always trump all other considerations, and a civil society built on such an absolutist position simply cannot last.

So you're saying your 'right to feel safe' trumps all my rights?

Sounds absolutist.

Now, if we surgically muted you to prevent the possibility that you might yell fire in a theater, then you'd have a accurate analogy to what you want to do to my rights to own firearms.


What -I- want to do to your rights to own firearms?

Dude, you haven't got the slightest idea what -my- position on gun control is.
 
2013-05-07 07:50:35 PM
It is kinda fun, though, that I've got about half of the people in the thread think I'm a "gun nut" while much of the other half seem to think I want to surgically remove their trigger fingers or something.  I really will need more popcorn if this thread keeps up.
 
2013-05-07 08:16:17 PM

Silverstaff: MonoChango: I'm not a member but from what I know they started out as a safety organization that helped organize gun competitions.

A brief history of the NRA, and how they got involved with gun control


Thank you. Nicely presented without any histrionics.
 
2013-05-07 08:29:52 PM

ciberido: It is kinda fun, though, that I've got about half of the people in the thread think I'm a "gun nut" while much of the other half seem to think I want to surgically remove their trigger fingers or something.


Yeah, that's called being a Fudd.
 
2013-05-07 08:39:57 PM

Thunderpipes: Dusk-You-n-Me: Thunderpipes: So you are saying, no new gun laws will be passed? Oh, all the legislation being pushed is just make believe? NY and other states are not passing draconian gun control laws? Phew, was worried for a minute. It is no fallacy. Every right you give up makes it easier to lose another.

You didn't understand what I posted. And background checks don't take away any of your rights.

Like Obamacare would let me keep my insurance and not increase rates? And yet, look, millions of people will NOT be able to keep their insurance because it does not meet the new regulations.

Background checks do take away rights. The right to sell a gun to a friend for example, boom, gone. I don't think you understand what I am saying. Think about this, I live in Vermont. if I dared travel through NY state, and brought my M1A with me, I could be charged with a crime, even though the weapon is perfectly legal here. This is just the start. Let's say libs get a watered down bill passed. What will the next emergency bring? Another round of laws to tighten up what we currently have. Repeat. More and more young people are growing up with an iPhone instead of hunting with their Dads. They won't care, they are voting in bigger numbers. Think that generation will care about the 2nd amendment?


is this guy serious or a master troll?
 
2013-05-07 08:51:38 PM

Silverstaff: The NRA says and does a lot of stupid things.

I still pay them membership dues.  Why?

Because they do one thing very, VERY well.  They are very good at lobbying against increased gun control.

If I want to oppose attacks on my Second Amendment civil rights, I know the ACLU will take a selective blind spot to that civil right.  I, as a private citizen, have very limited ability to influence my legislators.  However, together with several million of my fellow Americans, we can and do.

Just because I pay dues to them doesn't mean I vote how they tell me to (at most, I'll listen to recommendations, but I voted Obama because Romney was all-around worse).  Just because I pay dues to them doesn't mean I agree with every dumbass thing their spokespeople say.

However, backing them is the best way to thwart anti-gun activists and their legislative pressure, so I pay my dues.

It's a little like having an employee that says dumb shiat at work, is neglectful of hygiene, is rude to his co-workers and generally unpleasant, but he's OUTSTANDING at the actual core task of his job.  That is what the NRA is to me, something that is outstanding at it's one core task, even if it has many failings on the side.


That's not a healthy attitude. In your example, that one employee would be poisoning the environment for others. The net effect would be negative on the workplace for everyone. That is exactly like the NRA: the net effect is bad for the country. You belong IMHO because you selfishly want them to defend your gun rights without caring about the cost to the nation.
 
2013-05-07 09:14:11 PM
Boy the Fark beta males are sure up in arms (pardon the pun) about the big bad scary gun owners and the NRA. I hope you "guys" don't pee in your panties!
 
2013-05-07 09:46:24 PM

enik: Boy the Fark beta males are sure up in arms (pardon the pun) about the big bad scary gun owners and the NRA. I hope you "guys" don't pee in your panties!


NOT A FETISH.
 
2013-05-07 10:11:32 PM

Begoggle: PETA also does one thing and does it very well.


Attention whoring?
 
2013-05-07 10:17:19 PM

Jument: That's not a healthy attitude. In your example, that one employee would be poisoning the environment for others. The net effect would be negative on the workplace for everyone. That is exactly like the NRA: the net effect is bad for the country. You belong IMHO because you selfishly want them to defend your gun rights without caring about the cost to the nation.


What's the NRA doing to change the nation?  They do seem to associate with a lot of Republicans, but if the NRA were trying to ban abortion or make Christianity the national religion, they'd lose a lot of members (and money).  Just as the League of Woman Voters would lose membership if they started backing candidates on a partisan basis (versus, say, a candidate who proposes that women shouldn't be able to vote).
 
2013-05-07 10:42:10 PM

Thunderpipes: No statistical evidence that gun bans reduce gun crime, period. The previous assault weapons ban did absolutely nothing. How has Chicago been these many years?

That is what people like me have a problem with. Gun control has ALWAYS been a liberal ideal. They simply want to take our guns, period. Can call it what you want, but liberals would be ecstatic if they could ban guns, then break the 4th amendment so they could go house to house taking them. That is exactly what they want.

They don't want to tackle the problems, which are bad people and bad parenting, coupled with a mental health system that sucks and nobody having responsibility anymore. Can't legislate that. Difference is now, kids are so entitled and selfish and screwed up they think nothing of going on a shooting rampage. Older generations of kids tended to be taught things like responsibility, empathy, caring, and being a decent human being. Why is it so many people like me grew up with unlimited access to guns, and ammunition, yet school shootings were extremely rare? Logical solution would not be to tighten gun laws, but loosen them.


Europe.
 
2013-05-07 10:57:20 PM

BMFPitt: Begoggle: PETA also does one thing and does it very well.

Attention whoring?


Attention and cash.
 
2013-05-07 11:35:13 PM

Doom MD: CynicalLA: Doom MD: cameroncrazy1984: Doom MD: Legislation is being pushed on all levels of government in this area.

Okay, name one bill in the US congress that is being proposed to confiscate all firearms. What's the number and title?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x200]

That's what everyone is doing when they read your posts.  You obviously really love your guns but don't know shiat about the gun laws that were proposed.  Another moran making the pro-gun people look like retards.  Replying with insults just makes you look like a bigger idiot.
Thanks for backing up your alt, but the legislation is still dead as it ever was.


A) that's not my alt and B) You're right, because  there is no such legislation.

I repeat: there is no legislation in the US Congress, or on the President's agenda to confiscate all firearms. Deal with it and change your Depends.
 
2013-05-07 11:42:15 PM
Do any of you psychopathic 2nd amendment freaks ever travel overseas to nations that have gun control?

Do you FREAK THE FARK OUT when you come to nations like mine and you have to walk the streets unarmed, the one terrified person amongst a crowd of folks who don't equate 'going to the shops' with 'making sure you are packing heat'?

Or do you just holiday in Libertarian fantasy lands like Somalia?
 
2013-05-07 11:43:11 PM
Or do you not spend your time in our nations quivering in terror because you actually realise the whole reason why you want to be armed in the US is because everybody else is armed?
 
2013-05-07 11:59:02 PM

enik: Boy the Fark beta males are sure up in arms (pardon the pun) about the big bad scary gun owners and the NRA. I hope you "guys" don't pee in your panties!


That was strangely specific.

Do we even need to look at your internet browsing history?
 
2013-05-08 12:06:51 AM

cegorach: Do you FREAK THE FARK OUT when you come to nations like mine and you have to walk the streets unarmed, the one terrified person amongst a crowd of folks who don't equate 'going to the shops' with 'making sure you are packing heat'?


Nope.  And those same people don't freak out in the U.S. when they can't go somewhere without a pistol, but they would rather have fewer "Gun Free Zones" in general.  Law-abiding citizens aren't dangerous in them, and criminals ignore the prohibition anyway.

cegorach: Or do you just holiday in Libertarian fantasy lands like Somalia?


Somalia actually has strict licensing to own a gun or ammunition.
 
2013-05-08 12:12:48 AM

vpb: Of course the guys who think that having an AR-15 is a civil right are the craziest gun nuts of all. I wonder what you think is wrong with the NRA if you think that is right?


1.5/10
 
2013-05-08 12:17:27 AM

Silverstaff: So, just think how many lives we could save if we abolished the 4th amendment. Just have random police searches of houses and cars. Random roadblocks. Arrest people for contraband or warrants. Think how many criminals we could sweep up, how many lives we could save. . .just at the cost of just a little freedom, just one more amendment.


Indeed.  The 4th amendment is a relic, written when people still owned slaves, delivered mail by horseback and had flintlocks.

Think of how prosperous we could be if we could get past the 13th amendment purists and allow compromise on slavery reform.  Nobody needs ALL of their spare time to themselves, it's selfish and harmful to society.  Nobody's saying you can't have any spare time, just that their have to be limits to how much free time you spend on yourself.  Just as you can't yell fire in a theater, you can't be unenslaved all the time everywhere.
 
2013-05-08 12:18:54 AM

cegorach: Do any of you psychopathic 2nd amendment freaks ever travel overseas to nations that have gun control?

Do you FREAK THE FARK OUT when you come to nations like mine and you have to walk the streets unarmed, the one terrified person amongst a crowd of folks who don't equate 'going to the shops' with 'making sure you are packing heat'?


I hate to break this to you, but as a rational Handgun Carry Permit holder, I take offense to this kind of broad brushing of people who own firearms. The majority of HCP/CCW holders are rational people who have less than a 0.1% chance of being involved in crime.

The reason I have my HCP is because I want to be able to protect myself in an area where I know the average Law Enforcement Response Time to a situation where I will have to defend my life in a violent crime is around 5 to 8 minutes, on average. I also work in an area where there is a massive disproportionate amount of violent crime. I'm not terrified of my surroundings, or going unarmed - which I do 95% of the time. The other 5% of the time, you would never know I'm armed to begin with anyway.

And I don't fantasize about killing someone either. It's something I hope that I pay 90 bucks for every five years that I never have to use, period, on any human being.

So stop doing your own side a disservice and using hyperbole to paint all gun owners as "gun freaks".
 
2013-05-08 12:19:13 AM

spawn73: Thunderpipes: Have yet to see a single argument by the left why the NRA is bad, one that makes any sense.

They are fighting to keep the 2nd amendment. How could that possibly be bad?

Is the ACLU bad?

They're misrepresenting the 2nd amendment. Random people owning guns does not constitute an organised militia.


Fail.

The 2nd amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
 
2013-05-08 12:21:21 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: Coastalgrl: Something that a friend of mine said really made me stop and think. He has lived in Cambridge for a number of years and works at MIT. In response to the bombings and subsequent manhunt he said "I can't help but think if concealed carry would have been more common here, then this incident may have been resolved quicker. No one would ever try this in Texas".

Tell your friend this is demonstrably false, because one of the very first modern "mass shootings" happened in Texas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman


Was that before or after Texas went to a shall-issue permit system?
 
2013-05-08 12:21:28 AM

pedrop357: Think of how prosperous we could be if we could get past the 13th amendment purists and allow compromise on slavery reform.  Nobody needs ALL of their spare time to themselves, it's selfish and harmful to society.


I agree. And if we involved leather bonds and a few sex toys, it could be  REALLYfun.
 
2013-05-08 12:27:26 AM

cegorach: Or do you just holiday in Libertarian fantasy lands like Somalia?


Somalia is basically the new Godwin.  Anyone who deploys it pretty much loses the argument by default.
 
2013-05-08 01:00:28 AM

draypresct: Joe Blowme: Begoggle: That NRA convention looks like they got all the craziest of the absolute crazy to be key speakers.
Republicans, your party has officially been hijacked by psychopaths.
Any conservatives remaining that are sane should bail and form their own new party.

As opposed to actual ELECTED dems who say things like global warming is going to turn women into hookers? Or did they say something even more retarded?

Citation please.


Joe Blowme is referring to a recent House resolution calling attention to the evidence that the problems of global warming (war, disease, food insecurity, drought) disproportionately effect women in poverty.

He finds that funny for some reason.
 
2013-05-08 04:18:53 AM

Silverstaff: dartben: 1. How would requiring background checks for private gun sales have prevented Newtown?


IMO the background check shouldn't just be for the wannabe gun owner, but also for the people that person lives with. If you're part of a household that includes paranoid schizos (among others), you do not get to own a gun -- or at least not store it in the house.

2. "The camel's nose under the tent" so to use the metaphor.  Too many anti-gun types have made it clear they seek banning all or most guns, abolishment of the second amendment, confiscation of personally owned firearms ect.

I have no doubt there are  some people like that, but I doubt there are enough to make a difference.

3.  Devil is in the details.  Okay, so, you want to require background checks for personal sales?  How are we going to do this?

You could, for instance, mandate that the people involved in the sale have to go to a govt official who'll make the necessary background check.

If Grampa wants to give his grandson a rifle for his 13th birthday,

Should a 13 year old be allowed to own a rifle? Is a 13 year old allowed to own a car?

4.  If we're hopping through all these hoops to stay legal, but there's no way to verify who's being law-abiding and who isn't, then is there any point?

Yeah, what's the point of having laws at all? It's not as if you can verify who's following them or not.

Basically I am unconvinced of the need for it, unconvinced that gun-control advocates will quit after "universal background checks", and unconvinced that it won't substantially increase the burden on regular gun owners.

That's tinfoil-hat talk.

There is one thing about the US: Your gun-culture is nuts. Completely nuts. Norway has about the same number of firearms as the US (pr citizen), but gun-ownership simply isn't an issue. Norwegians have guns mostly for hunting (a very legitimate purpose) and plinking at targets. There are also some collectors. We do not own guns for self-defence or to protect ourselves from the gubmint.


The impression I have is that a large chunk of the US gun culture (certainly the loudest part) is motivated mainly by fear, paranoia, and some bizarre fetishistic ideology.
 
2013-05-08 04:22:53 AM

hardinparamedic: I hate to break this to you, but as a rational Handgun Carry Permit holder, I take offense to this kind of broad brushing of people who own firearms. The majority of HCP/CCW holders are rational people who have less than a 0.1% chance of being involved in crime.


Where is your gun right now?
 
2013-05-08 04:30:07 AM
Glenn Beck said "The only thing that will protect your mother or daughter from being raped or molested is a gun."

That's a good point, because if one person knows what rapists don't like, it's Glenn Beck.

/Rest in peace 1990 girl. Wish you would have had a gun to fight him off.
 
2013-05-08 05:00:23 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: hardinparamedic: I hate to break this to you, but as a rational Handgun Carry Permit holder, I take offense to this kind of broad brushing of people who own firearms. The majority of HCP/CCW holders are rational people who have less than a 0.1% chance of being involved in crime.

Where is your gun right now?


Locked up in a fingerprint biometric/keycode safe, unloaded.
The rifles are 120 miles away, locked in a browning 15 gun safe.

Why do you ask?
 
2013-05-08 05:02:00 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Where is your gun right now?


I also have no children in my brick-sided home, and shoot frangible ammo - the same that Air Marshals shoot so it won't penetrate the skin of a plane.

Please continue to make irrelevant comparisons to what I said, though.
 
2013-05-08 09:55:11 AM

Hickory-smoked: draypresct: Joe Blowme: Begoggle: That NRA convention looks like they got all the craziest of the absolute crazy to be key speakers.
Republicans, your party has officially been hijacked by psychopaths.
Any conservatives remaining that are sane should bail and form their own new party.

As opposed to actual ELECTED dems who say things like global warming is going to turn women into hookers? Or did they say something even more retarded?

Citation please.

Joe Blowme is referring to a recent House resolution calling attention to the evidence that the problems of global warming (war, disease, food insecurity, drought) disproportionately effect women in poverty.

He finds that funny for some reason.


I was wondering if he'd found an obscure politician somewhere saying something crazy, or if he was deliberately (mis)quoting out of context.

Thanks for clearing that up.
 
2013-05-08 01:32:16 PM

hardinparamedic: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Where is your gun right now?

I also have no children in my brick-sided home, and shoot frangible ammo - the same that Air Marshals shoot so it won't penetrate the skin of a plane.

Please continue to make irrelevant comparisons to what I said, though.


Our anecdotal evidence brings us up to 50% of HCP/CCWs handling their weapons responsibly.
 
2013-05-08 03:33:02 PM
Thank god. He sure could use some
 
2013-05-08 08:16:36 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Our anecdotal evidence brings us up to 50% of HCP/CCWs handling their weapons responsibly.


It's things like this that make people laugh at you.

Let's review something, shall we? You're making blatantly offensive attacks against someone who not only is a responsible, mature gun owner, but also works in a pediatric level 1 trauma center - by openly comparing him to a couple who's actions allowed their child to be killed through sheer negligence. Not only that, you're doing this to someone who generally agrees with the need for expanded restrictions and background check expansions to prevent people who should not have access to firearms from gaining that access.

You're like the Operation Barbarossa of Gun threads, dude.
 
2013-05-08 08:33:53 PM

hardinparamedic: comparing him to a couple


I was comparing you to the CCW uncle.
 
2013-05-08 08:57:53 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: I was comparing you to the CCW uncle.


You really need to clarify these things.
 
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