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(Telegraph)   Every week, some loon wants to give up on the euro. This week, it's the guy who got it started in the first place   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 97
    More: Obvious, Franco-German, slippery slope, euros  
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6423 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 May 2013 at 12:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-06 12:07:35 PM
How much is all that in real money?
 
2013-05-06 12:10:10 PM

special20: How much is all that in real money?


Loons or euros?
 
2013-05-06 12:10:16 PM
So a German thinks Germany should stop using the same currency as countries who can't get their shiat together.  Imagine that.
 
2013-05-06 12:13:43 PM

special20: How much is all that in real money?


1 Euro is currently $1.31 (at least, it was earlier today).

Ironically, that's pretty much where it's been for the last decade.
 
2013-05-06 12:15:21 PM
I predicted it should last about 10 years. I was so close on calling this one.
 
2013-05-06 12:15:25 PM
Germany leaving the Euro is probably the least worst economic solution for all of the Euro nations.

So there's not much chance of that happening, then.
 
2013-05-06 12:18:07 PM
Europe is going to keep on spending right up to the moment that Germany leaves the Euro. Then all hell is going to break out.
 
2013-05-06 12:22:52 PM

JohnAnnArbor: special20: How much is all that in real money?

Loons or euros?


XAU.
 
2013-05-06 12:24:29 PM
Imagine if they did split.  Each Euro becomes one new deutschmark, one new drachma, one new peseta, one new lira, etc... all valued in proportion somehow (pre-euro values?).

Then, revalue the debt based on what nation it's from.  Debt from Greece becomes pure drachmas (Ha ha!).  Debt from Germany becomes pure deutschmarks (awesome!).
 
2013-05-06 12:25:58 PM
Does his face look funny to anyone else?

His eyes, nose, and mouth are all squished to the center with a huge amount of 'head' on all sides?
 
2013-05-06 12:26:06 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Europe is going to keep on spending right up to the moment that Germany leaves the Euro. Then all hell is going to break out.


My 2 pfennigs is that Merkel is going to stay the course.
And, maybe old Dubya can come back and give her another neck rub.
 
2013-05-06 12:26:26 PM
s10.postimg.org
 
2013-05-06 12:32:06 PM
Come on, bitcoin!
 
2013-05-06 12:34:10 PM
This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.
 
2013-05-06 12:34:24 PM
The Euro was a bad idea from the start and served only to enhance the profitability of banking.  I look forward to it's eventual and probable demise, even with the global problems that would cause.
 
2013-05-06 12:34:28 PM
Might as well just start calling it all Yuan Renminbi now and get it over with.
 
2013-05-06 12:36:45 PM

special20: How much is all that in real money?


You mean bitcoins, gold, silver, or ammo?
 
2013-05-06 12:38:33 PM
Know who wants the Euro more than anything?

The unelected board of arseholes who are making laws by dictate for multiple countries om Europe. Take away the Euro and they know their days are numbered.
 
2013-05-06 12:40:33 PM

madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.


Exactly.  And Germany has a point--why should they be bound by economic policies they have no control over?  To manage a centralized currency, you need a centralized government--or at least the ability to stop people from screwing shiat over.  Maybe Germany should start managing Greece's finances.
 
2013-05-06 12:42:54 PM
Treat the Euro as a safety net currency rather than a universal standard. Let the Germans, the French, the Swiss and whoever else considers themselves stable enough to leave. The Euro then becomes a standard currency for countries who CAN'T get their crap together. Costs of borrowing will increase to the point where a balance between austerity and pandemonium will hit (and it will hurt) to the point where the broke nations start b***hslapping each other to not fark up because interest rates are tied to all of their economic well being.

Any country that does well enough in terms of debt to GDP and inflationary controls should be allowed to leave the Euro. Anyone who can't stays in.
 
2013-05-06 12:45:50 PM

palelizard: madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.

Exactly.  And Germany has a point--why should they be bound by economic policies they have no control over?  To manage a centralized currency, you need a centralized government--or at least the ability to stop people from screwing shiat over.  Maybe Germany should start managing Greece's finances.


It'll be interesting to see what happens to the EU from here -- if it falls apart, or if it becomes a stronger political union.  I could really see the latter, much like the Articles of Confederation gave way to the current federal system in the US.
 
2013-05-06 12:50:28 PM

JohnAnnArbor: special20: How much is all that in real money?

Loons or euros?


Yuan.
 
2013-05-06 12:52:46 PM

palelizard: madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.

Exactly.  And Germany has a point--why should they be bound by economic policies they have no control over?  To manage a centralized currency, you need a centralized government--or at least the ability to stop people from screwing shiat over.  Maybe Germany should start managing Greece's finances.


This is an interesting read for anyone curious about how the PIIGS can be excised from the EU. When they built the thing there was no methodology for removal or dismantling. After going over this whole elaborate fustercluck that the Europeans have gotten themselves into, I am starting to think that maybe they should consider a 'Federal' system to overlay the existing member 'states'. Yes, that means the Germans will have to continue paying for the frittering in southern Europe forever, but the Northeast and West coast of the US has been doing that for over a century and they don't complain much. In fact, they complain less than the states that are on the receiving end!
 
2013-05-06 12:55:08 PM
corporateeurope.org

So, how's that workin'?
 
2013-05-06 12:56:07 PM
The Euro was an attempt to bring countries that used to fight wars against one another less than a hundred years ago under one system.  Except that it had no standards for fiscal policy of the nation states.

The future is more freedom.
You can only have that by decentralization.
The Euro was a monetary imperialism by the Germans/French/Brit, it was doomed to failure from the start.
 
2013-05-06 01:00:14 PM

NostroZ: The Euro was an attempt to bring countries that used to fight wars against one another less than a hundred years ago under one system.  Except that it had no standards for fiscal policy of the nation states.

The future is more freedom.
You can only have that by decentralization.
The Euro was a monetary imperialism by the Germans/French/Brit, it was doomed to failure from the start.


You realize that the Brits didn't sign on for the Euro, right?  They still use Pounds?
 
2013-05-06 01:01:32 PM
You think the Euro's bad - wait till President Fart unites with the UN to institute the Obamo.
 
2013-05-06 01:02:45 PM

NostroZ: The Euro was an attempt to bring countries that used to fight wars against one another less than a hundred years ago under one system.  Except that it had no standards for fiscal policy of the nation states.

The future is more freedom.
You can only have that by decentralization.
The Euro was a monetary imperialism by the Germans/French/Brit, it was doomed to failure from the start.


Uhm, you really don't know what you are talking about.

First, the Brits have nothing to do with the Euro.
Second, there were/are lots of standards for governmental fiscal policy. The problem is that data was fudged going in, and issues were winked at or buried, or now bailed out. Most member nations have long ago violated standards - most being deficit spending rule violation, but there are other issues. The problem is that there is no overall enforcement. If a nation breaks the rules there is no punishment. There is currently no method of penalizing or evicting member nations that don't comply.
 
2013-05-06 01:02:54 PM

HeartBurnKid: palelizard: madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.

Exactly.  And Germany has a point--why should they be bound by economic policies they have no control over?  To manage a centralized currency, you need a centralized government--or at least the ability to stop people from screwing shiat over.  Maybe Germany should start managing Greece's finances.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the EU from here -- if it falls apart, or if it becomes a stronger political union.  I could really see the latter, much like the Articles of Confederation gave way to the current federal system in the US.


Germany should just annex the other countries that have strong economies and run them for themselves.  Maybe the stronger individual member states can vote on a leader and we can call him "the emperor".  Since most of the denizens are of Roman Catholic descent, and quite holy as indicated by the Pope, we should call it the Empire of the Holy Romans, or EHR for short.
 
2013-05-06 01:03:51 PM

madgonad: palelizard: madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.

Exactly.  And Germany has a point--why should they be bound by economic policies they have no control over?  To manage a centralized currency, you need a centralized government--or at least the ability to stop people from screwing shiat over.  Maybe Germany should start managing Greece's finances.

This is an interesting read for anyone curious about how the PIIGS can be excised from the EU. When they built the thing there was no methodology for removal or dismantling. After going over this whole elaborate fustercluck that the Europeans have gotten themselves into, I am starting to think that maybe they should consider a 'Federal' system to overlay the existing member 'states'. Yes, that means the Germans will have to continue paying for the frittering in southern Europe forever, but the Northeast and West coast of the US has been doing that for over a century and they don't complain much. In fact, they complain less than the states that are on the receiving end!


The current clusterfark in Europe shows how a unified North American currency would be idiocy.  Mexico needs a devalued currency relative to the US and Canada for their tourism industry.  Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy need a devalued currency relative to northern European countries for just the same reason.

A Euro which just includes the wealthier nordic countries plus France would make sense.  A Euro which includes the southern and eastern European countries has to involve massive subsidies to the poorer nations.  I think that the smaller EU membership solution is going to be the endgame.
 
2013-05-06 01:04:20 PM
Every week, some loon wants to give up on the euro. This week, it's the guy who got it started in the first place

www.creatingpeaceofmind.com


/that's the joke
//right?
 
2013-05-06 01:05:46 PM
I'm putting all my money on  quatloos...
 
2013-05-06 01:05:59 PM
Has Germany thought this through?

After all, didn't they themselves put an end to war reparations by letting their currency drop to such low levels that you were better off using it as TP than trying to carry enough of it to the store to buy TP? (European TP was nasty sand-papery stuff in those days--not soft and fluffy like it is today.)

If you let Greece have the drachma back, they'll pay their debts off like Evil Twin Wimpy, gladly paying their debts today in devalued paper, for the price of what a hamburger will cost next Tuesday.

Or am I just another Paul Krugman, tilting at the windmills of your conservative minds?

Aside: Speaking of the windmills of your minds, whatever happened to Dusty Springfield, the hot one, unless you are gay, in which case you probably prefer Bruce (Rough Trade) or Rick (Twinkie)?

Worse yet, the drachma might easily be accompanied by ship loads of British pounds, Irish Punts*, Spanish pesetas and Italian lira. The real hard currency lira, by the way, accept no Turkish lira**.

To make a long argument short, you are a conservative. You are wrong about everything, especially gold, fiat currency, common sense, morality, politics, religion, and anything that requires more than two brain cells to be operating at the same time.

*They changed the name just enough so they don't have to pay the English or Scots royalties.

**56 cents. Not bad actually. Maybe I got that backwards--accept no Italian lira. You'd need about twenty of them to make one sheet of TP. Because paper is too expensive to use to print lira.
 
2013-05-06 01:09:53 PM

madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.



Exactly.
However, you try explaining how a strong federal government is good for the United States to a Tea Bagger.
 
2013-05-06 01:11:09 PM

JohnAnnArbor: Imagine if they did split.  Each Euro becomes one new deutschmark, one new drachma, one new peseta, one new lira, etc... all valued in proportion somehow (pre-euro values?).

Then, revalue the debt based on what nation it's from.  Debt from Greece becomes pure drachmas (Ha ha!).  Debt from Germany becomes pure deutschmarks (awesome!).


The initial value is 340.75 drachmas to the euro.  That would probably plummet in milliseconds.

If debt becomes pure drachmas at the rate of 340.75 drachmas to the euro, then Greece's bondholders and savers get screwed as the drachma plummets and the euro soars.  If debt remains denominated in euros, then Greece's debt load becomes worse than ruinous -- default becomes a near certainty.
 
2013-05-06 01:11:17 PM

Pants full of macaroni!!: You think the Euro's bad - wait till President Fart unites with the UN to institute the Obamo.


I would buy the Obamo just to prove I'm not racist.
 
2013-05-06 01:13:44 PM
I am pro-Euro because if it fails I'll have to go back to doing expense claims in the currencies of a dozen countries instead of two, maybe three.

True, the Euro Zone was botched, but it was botched by the same mistakes that every corporation makes:  it expanded too fast and too far out of pure greed and stupidity (just like the NHL), it fell under the control of a country full of rich, greedy bastards who simply took it over (just like the NHL), and I sincerely think it would still work if it only had the original teams (just like the NHL).

And also, I don't really care all that much if it works or not except insofar as it impacts my peace and quiet. The sound of a hockey game on TV always used to make me sleepy, like the sound of a vacuum cleaner or a ride in a car makes a baby drop off and sleep soundly. You can imagine what Euro debates are like--better than a handful of sleeping pills washed down with George H.W. Bush's best Scotch, neat.
 
2013-05-06 01:15:03 PM

madgonad: palelizard: madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.

Exactly.  And Germany has a point--why should they be bound by economic policies they have no control over?  To manage a centralized currency, you need a centralized government--or at least the ability to stop people from screwing shiat over.  Maybe Germany should start managing Greece's finances.

This is an interesting read for anyone curious about how the PIIGS can be excised from the EU. When they built the thing there was no methodology for removal or dismantling. After going over this whole elaborate fustercluck that the Europeans have gotten themselves into, I am starting to think that maybe they should consider a 'Federal' system to overlay the existing member 'states'. Yes, that means the Germans will have to continue paying for the frittering in southern Europe forever, but the Northeast and West coast of the US has been doing that for over a century and they don't complain much. In fact, they complain less than the states that are on the receiving end!


Why would they complain? It is easier to pay to keep poor minorities out of their back yard.
 
2013-05-06 01:17:34 PM
I was all for the Euro but please let's go 'old school' again.
Let 'em print as much as they want.
25 economies with only 5 in the dump beats 1 economy that's half in the dump.
 
2013-05-06 01:17:43 PM
The headline is bullshiat. Lafontaine was finance minister when the Euro was launched, but not when it was planned. He started as a finance minister three months before the official start of the Euro and left his position three months later.
 
2013-05-06 01:18:11 PM
Any plan that involves the hope that it will "force" people to act rationally --with money --was doomed to failure from the get-go.
 
2013-05-06 01:18:15 PM
Sorry to focus on the trivial, but:

Oskar Lafontaine
Pierre Moscovici
Philipp Rösler


So the former German Fin Min has a German first name, French last name. The French Fin Min has a French first, and what looks like an Italian last, which seems to say in Italian "from a Russian city." And the German Vice-Chancellor has a Greek first and German last.

How can they get anything done when they're infiltrating each other's governments with moles? Lafontaine unsurprisingly is shilling for France, I guess Moscovici is trying to turn France back into Soviet France, and Rösler is the guy who let Greece run away with all that Germoney.
 
2013-05-06 01:20:39 PM

FARK rebel soldier: Rösler is the guy who let Greece run away with all that Germoney.


You should google a picture of Rösler. You might find he doesn't look very Greek. (Doesn't look German either...)
 
2013-05-06 01:20:40 PM
I thought Roosevelt was dead? FDR lives?
geez
 
2013-05-06 01:21:03 PM

HellRaisingHoosier: madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.


Exactly.
However, you try explaining how a strong federal government is good for the United States to a Tea Bagger.


Try explaining anything to a teabagger.
 
2013-05-06 01:24:25 PM

HellRaisingHoosier: madgonad: This all stems from the EU being based upon currency and not government.

In the US, we have both. Because there are 'poorer' parts of the nation, the Federal government spends more money per capita in the less productive states - mostly in the south, plains, and non-coastal west. This transfer of wealth makes the system work. Germany is discovering that they don't want to keep bailing out the southern governments (this is the only method without a central government) so they are starting to reconsider the Union itself.


Exactly.
However, you try explaining how a strong federal government is good for the United States to a Tea Bagger.


You can't reason someone out of a position that he didn't reason himself into.
 
2013-05-06 01:27:17 PM

HellRaisingHoosier: Exactly.
However, you try explaining how a strong federal government is good for the United States to a Tea Bagger.


I have done that many times, and not just here. The only people in the Tea Party movement that have a lick of economic sense are the ones miking the members with gold or Bitcoin investment plans. I just can't use my knowledge for evil.


jaybeezey: Why would they complain? It is easier to pay to keep poor minorities out of their back yard.


Germany just needs to come to terms that there are non-economic benefits to having weaker member states that require ongoing support. Just because you are stuck under one currency doesn't mean that values remain the same across the entire fiscal body. There are massive differences in costs between high value locations in New York and San Francisco and low value locations like pretty much anywhere in Arkansas or Mississippi. The same can of Coke costs $1.50 in NY, but can be had for $0.50 in the Midwest. It just takes time for high/low value areas to congeal. That, and people can move far more easily in Europe, which weakens the regional valuations found in the US.
That, and retired Germans need to start retiring to the south near the sea. That is a painless money pump from North to South.
 
2013-05-06 01:31:48 PM

anfrind: You can't reason someone out of a position that he didn't reason himself into.


Story of my life.
 
2013-05-06 01:32:22 PM

opiumpoopy: Germany leaving the Euro is probably the least worst economic solution for all of the Euro nations.

So there's not much chance of that happening, then.


If you knew what was going on, or had read the article, you'd realise that there's a divide between north and south Europe. Germany belongs to the North European group in that sense.

Any harm done is done by Nothern Europe to Sourthern Europe, not Germany to the rest of the EU.

/France won't ever be able to accept that they're in the same group as Spain and Italy.
 
2013-05-06 01:33:25 PM
I seem to recall many economists telling them it was a bad idea for just these reasons.
 
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