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(Telegraph)   British horse riders told not to wear 'polite' bibs; asshole bibs still under review   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 65
    More: Unlikely, Chief Constables, Association of Chief Police Officers, actual world, Section 90 Police Act, Assistant Chief Constable Ron Hanson  
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7498 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 May 2013 at 10:59 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-06 11:01:49 AM
First 'shop on this thread with have a different word on the vest ....
 
2013-05-06 11:01:54 AM
I don't know who the bigger assholes in this story are.

The motorists, for being assholes to horses and their riders.
The riders, for taking horses out where they really don't have any business.
The police, for being pissy about someone wearing a reflective vest.
The riders association, for just kowtowing to the police.
 
2013-05-06 11:02:39 AM
What is so polite about taking your uber-luxury pet for a walk in the middle of a congested street?
 
2013-05-06 11:03:17 AM
Wow, a group worse than bicyclists. This should be fun. If your horse is spooked by vehicles, maybe not riding it on the farking road would be a thing to do?

Do they not have any fields left in the UK? Why do people insist on trying to force incompatible things to share the same space?
 
2013-05-06 11:04:10 AM
Very rarely do I instantly get angry about a police reaction, but this is one of those times.

NO, Mister Officer, these people do NOT resemble an officer's uniform.  Stupid Mister Officer, it is the POLICE who have copied STANDARD SAFETY VISIBILITY WEAR.  Just because it has the word "Polite" in block caps doesn't make it an attempt to impersonate anything.
 
2013-05-06 11:04:12 AM
Is an HVV really necessary? How do you not notice a horse in traffic?
 
2013-05-06 11:05:37 AM

bopis: What is so polite about taking your uber-luxury pet for a walk in the middle of a congested street?


The word "POLITE" was obviously chosen precisely so that people would confuse it with "POLICE" and be more inclined to slow down
 
2013-05-06 11:08:09 AM

the_foo: Wow, a group worse than bicyclists. This should be fun. If your horse is spooked by vehicles, maybe not riding it on the farking road would be a thing to do?

Do they not have any fields left in the UK? Why do people insist on trying to force incompatible things to share the same space?


I really just automatically assumed you were urban, from such a silly comment about horseback riding.  Then I saw you were in Minnesota and my worldview was shaken.  Just because the picture in the article shows cops in some township setting doesn't mean that's where people are riding their horses.  People shouldn't have to give up horseback riding because people use country roads as freeways.
 
2013-05-06 11:08:34 AM
Ok, the Police wear certain colors, and no other rival can wear them... it's as if the Police were some sort of gang.
 
2013-05-06 11:09:04 AM

the_foo: bopis: What is so polite about taking your uber-luxury pet for a walk in the middle of a congested street?

The word "POLITE" was obviously chosen precisely so that people would confuse it with "POLICE" and be more inclined to slow down


And if this was a copyright case, they may have an argument for confusion.
 
2013-05-06 11:09:27 AM

Mr Guy: Very rarely do I instantly get angry about a police reaction, but this is one of those times.

NO, Mister Officer, these people do NOT resemble an officer's uniform.  Just because it has the word "Polite" in block caps doesn't make it an attempt to impersonate anything.


Yeah, right. The "Please" vest seems fine, but "POLITE" doesn't make any grammatical sense. The only reason to use the word "POLITE" instead of "PLEASE" is because it resembles "POLICE".
 
2013-05-06 11:09:38 AM
It's a pretty reasonable request from the police because well....

the_foo: The word "POLITE" was obviously chosen precisely so that people would confuse it with "POLICE" and be more inclined to slow down


This.

As for horses on public roads I think that the majority of car drivers need to realize that the road does not belong to them and that mixed use roads are the future.  Fighting against mixed use roads won't change anything.

/car driver
//if I owned a horse the last thing I would do is put my horse in risk by riding it on public roads
 
2013-05-06 11:09:39 AM
Remember, the average road shoulder in the UK is two inches of white paint.
 
2013-05-06 11:10:59 AM

the_foo: bopis: What is so polite about taking your uber-luxury pet for a walk in the middle of a congested street?

The word "POLITE" was obviously chosen precisely so that people would confuse it with "POLICE" and be more inclined to slow down


I'm afraid I have to agree. I was all ready to get all angry before I saw the pic of the uniform in question. It's akin to painting a bright red tow-truck with the words "Fyre Marshal". Delete the "POLICE/t" off the back, and I'd be ready to get angry again.
 
2013-05-06 11:13:31 AM
That's clever, but obviously not a good idea.

I'm surprised anyone is defending this: I know Fark doesn't trust cops, and usually I'm one of those, but this is British police not Americans. And does anyone really think this isn't deliberate confusion with POLICE?
 
2013-05-06 11:13:32 AM

bopis: What is so polite about taking your uber-luxury pet for a walk in the middle of a congested street?


Horses are not some kind of uber-luxury pet.  They are the greenest form of transportation around.  They are completely organic, they operated exclusively on renewable energy sources, their waste byproduct is useful as fertilizer instead of being toxic, their end of life usefulness is 100% even if only composted and used as fertlizer, and they are capable of reproducing themselves with no expenditure of fossil fuels, no use of conflict minerals, no hazardous manufacturing waste.  They're greener than bicycles.  So clear the bicycle paths for horse traffic.

Not only that, but if you have a pint too many at the local, the horse can find its way home.  Try that with your Prius!  We need a lot more horses, a lot fewer cars.
 
2013-05-06 11:17:53 AM

Mr Guy: I really just automatically assumed you were urban, from such a silly comment about horseback riding.  Then I saw you were in Minnesota and my worldview was shaken.  Just because the picture in the article shows cops in some township setting doesn't mean that's where people are riding their horses.  People shouldn't have to give up horseback riding because people use country roads as freeways.


That's why I'm confused. I've had people riding horses near me both when I was a kid and where I live now. But if your horse is spooked by cars, riding on the road is just dumb. Sure, you may have the right to use the road, but if your horse is easily spooked, you have a responsibility not to. Otherwise you're deliberately creating a risky situation.

Also, as DubtodaIll pointed out, none of the riders I saw needed vests. Horses were pretty dang obvious.
 
2013-05-06 11:17:58 AM
FTA: But with 3,000 accidents involving horses on the roads each year, the police response is being seen as heavy handed and many riders are refusing to back down.

Dear Britain,
This is why the rest of the world thinks you're stuck in the 19th century.
Sincerely,
The rest of the world
 
2013-05-06 11:18:56 AM
My great-grandfather never owned a car, and up until he died in the early 80s he still rode a horse everywhere.

/csb
 
2013-05-06 11:19:27 AM

Mr. Right: bopis: What is so polite about taking your uber-luxury pet for a walk in the middle of a congested street?

Horses are not some kind of uber-luxury pet.  They are the greenest form of transportation around.  They are completely organic, they operated exclusively on renewable energy sources, their waste byproduct is useful as fertilizer instead of being toxic, their end of life usefulness is 100% even if only composted and used as fertlizer, and they are capable of reproducing themselves with no expenditure of fossil fuels, no use of conflict minerals, no hazardous manufacturing waste.  They're greener than bicycles.  So clear the bicycle paths for horse traffic.

Not only that, but if you have a pint too many at the local, the horse can find its way home.  Try that with your Prius!  We need a lot more horses, a lot fewer cars.


And when you're done riding: burgers!
 
2013-05-06 11:19:49 AM

the_foo: Mr Guy: Very rarely do I instantly get angry about a police reaction, but this is one of those times.

NO, Mister Officer, these people do NOT resemble an officer's uniform.  Just because it has the word "Polite" in block caps doesn't make it an attempt to impersonate anything.

Yeah, right. The "Please" vest seems fine, but "POLITE" doesn't make any grammatical sense. The only reason to use the word "POLITE" instead of "PLEASE" is because it resembles "POLICE".


Which, like I said, would matter if they were, say, directing traffic or the police were suing for copyright.  You can't be "impersonating" if all it takes is a second glance to disambiguiate.  They are mad about them using hazard colors with writing in them, as if mounted police have the exclusive lock on wearing hazard reflectors.  This is why we mock the nanny state.
 
2013-05-06 11:20:06 AM
Horses used the roads long before cars existed - and in most states, they have every right to the road as an automobile (interstates excepted). Heck, many states have rules on the books that say automobile drivers have to take extra caution not to spook a horse.

/owns horses
//will ride on the side of country highways
///most people slow down, especially when they see a rifle scabbard.
 
2013-05-06 11:23:11 AM

Mr. Right: Not only that, but if you have a pint too many at the local, the horse can find its way home.


But what if
mw2.google.com
 
2013-05-06 11:25:38 AM

Mr Guy: the_foo: Wow, a group worse than bicyclists. This should be fun. If your horse is spooked by vehicles, maybe not riding it on the farking road would be a thing to do?

Do they not have any fields left in the UK? Why do people insist on trying to force incompatible things to share the same space?

I really just automatically assumed you were urban, from such a silly comment about horseback riding.  Then I saw you were in Minnesota and my worldview was shaken.  Just because the picture in the article shows cops in some township setting doesn't mean that's where people are riding their horses.  People shouldn't have to give up horseback riding because people use country roads as freeways.


People shouldn't have to give up riding, period.  I have no qualms with a horse on the sidewalk or walking along the side of the street.  It has about as much impact on my commute as a bicyclist, jogger, or someone pushing a baby carriage.  As an added bonus, I'm not likely to miss the large horse on the side of the road.

Then again, I know how to farking drive and ride a horse on public streets.  It's the one thing Texas and the U.K. have in common.  Horseback riders  everywhere.
 
2013-05-06 11:27:47 AM
In all honesty, the police should be happy that these vests read the way they do.
If it encourages nutjob boy racers to drive like a well adjusted adult, then I think that's probably a good thing.
& it saves the police blowing bags of money on other deterrents.
On the subject of horses on the high street. It's quite rare really (except when the police do it for football matches & royal weddings & witch funerals).
Most riders will be likely out on quiet country lanes (that horses were using long before someone slapped tarmac on top & cars came along) & those places are where petrol heads like to put their car's spec to the test, as there are no coppers around to stop them. Not even on horses.
So these riders are effectively helping the cops for free.
 
2013-05-06 11:37:04 AM
images.moviepostershop.com
 
2013-05-06 11:41:50 AM

the_foo: Wow, a group worse than bicyclists.


Yeah, I didn't know if it was local to my area or not but this story seems to suggest that equestrians may be universally insufferable.  Expecting the rest of the world to slow down and "shush" because you're riding a horse that spooks easily is selfish, unrealistic, and rude.  If you truly believe that being out in public is that dangerous for you and your hose, then choose not subject yourself, the poor nervous horse, and the rest of us to that situation.
 
2013-05-06 11:42:50 AM

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: the_foo: Wow, a group worse than bicyclists.

Yeah, I didn't know if it was local to my area or not but this story seems to suggest that equestrians may be universally insufferable.  Expecting the rest of the world to slow down and "shush" because you're riding a horse that spooks easily is selfish, unrealistic, and rude.  If you truly believe that being out in public is that dangerous for you and your hose, then choose not subject yourself, the poor nervous horse, and the rest of us to that situation.


That's right.  You and your hose.
 
2013-05-06 11:43:03 AM

Egoy3k: //if I owned a horse the last thing I would do is put my horse in risk by riding it on public roads


Well since you can't exactly go tresspassing across everyone's property, you kinda have to use the roads. And you know, they ARE actually "PUBLIC" and all.
 
2013-05-06 11:47:57 AM

Pista: On the subject of horses on the high street. It's quite rare really (except when the police do it for football matches & royal weddings & witch funerals).


Wait, whut?

/oh never mind, that was a thatcher shot.

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Expecting the rest of the world to slow down and "shush" because you're riding a horse that spooks easily is selfish, unrealistic, and rude.


Ummm.. no. They are saying that the rules of the road for automobiles have ALWAYS been to give a horse space when sharing the road, and not to buzz within 3 feet it at 70 MPH.
 
2013-05-06 11:50:19 AM

Mr Guy: Which, like I said, would matter if they were, say, directing traffic or the police were suing for copyright.  You can't be "impersonating" if all it takes is a second glance to disambiguiate.  They are mad about them using hazard colors with writing in them, as if mounted police have the exclusive lock on wearing hazard reflectors.  This is why we mock the nanny state.


You do have an impressive nanny state, but as far as I can tell from the article, they're taking issue specifically with the word "POLITE", not with reflective vests in general. If they're going after anything else, then yes, they're wankers.

However, if you ride your horse on the road and then complain that it's startled by cars, you are also a wanker. You knew there would be cars, and unless this is your first ride, you probably knew whether your horse is bothered by cars. And honestly, the road seems like the absolute least enjoyable place to ride a horse. The few times I've ridden a horse it's been out in open country, a park, or a farm or something.
 
2013-05-06 11:52:48 AM
 wearing such kit could cause riders to be mistaken for mounted officers
Me thinks thats the general idea.
 
2013-05-06 12:02:26 PM

Mr. Right: Horses are not some kind of uber-luxury pet.  They are the greenest form of transportation around.  They are completely organic, they operated exclusively on renewable energy sources, their waste byproduct is useful as fertilizer instead of being toxic, their end of life usefulness is 100% even if only composted and used as fertlizer, and they are capable of reproducing themselves with no expenditure of fossil fuels, no use of conflict minerals, no hazardous manufacturing waste.  They're greener than bicycles.  So clear the bicycle paths for horse traffic.


Not sure how serious you are... horses may be green, but they're definitely not cheap. You could get an (old) used car for the price of saddle and tack, let alone the horse itself, stable costs, food, veterinarian expenses, etc.
 
2013-05-06 12:07:13 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Egoy3k: //if I owned a horse the last thing I would do is put my horse in risk by riding it on public roads

Well since you can't exactly go tresspassing across everyone's property, you kinda have to use the roads. And you know, they ARE actually "PUBLIC" and all.


Shouldn't you save the righteous indignation for someone who is actually opposed to your point of view?

Personally if I owned a horse I wouldn't put it at risk of getting creamed by idiot drivers because I don't want to own an ex-horse. I never once claimed that horses shouldn't be on the road or that the road wasn't public.
 
2013-05-06 12:32:06 PM

Egoy3k: Personally if I owned a horse I wouldn't put it at risk of getting creamed by idiot drivers because I don't want to own an ex-horse. I never once claimed that horses shouldn't be on the road or that the road wasn't public.


I'll make that first part of the claim.  If you ride your spooky horse on the street, you're an idiot and you shouldn't be surprised when the horse bucks you.  Just because you're within your rights doesn't mean you shouldn't account for the rest of the world going about it's normal business.  If you're on a spooky horse on a street, you're a nuisance and a danger to yourself, your horse and the general public.
 
2013-05-06 12:34:02 PM

Egoy3k: Shouldn't you save the righteous indignation for someone who is actually opposed to your point of view?


I'm not indignant, righteous or otherwise.

Egoy3k: Personally if I owned a horse I wouldn't put it at risk of getting creamed by idiot drivers because I don't want to own an ex-horse.


Which is fine if you have a part-time, or liesure time horse where you keep it at a pasture or equine center and you have a horse trailer and go riding every other weekend for fun. Lot's of people do, and that's perfectly fine. At that point, it's like having a boat. An expensive hobby, perhaps, but many people get great enjoyment from it. So when you sau "if I owned a horse", I think we can assume you don't live on a farm in a rural area and your horse would be living somewhere else.

But for a lot of people, (especially in rural England, Ireland, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Russia, Spain, Italy, The United States, Canada.. well.. anywhere really)  the horse is a daily activity and it is perfectly normal to dire your horse from your house to somewhere else. If you just need to go a few miles down from your house, or you want to take a nice ride along the beach, or along a nice stretch of riverbank, or whatever, chances are you will have to use a public road to get there, since you can't cross over fields fenced off and owned by someone else.  And if there is a town between you and your destination, you will be sharing the road with automobile traffic. It's just kinda unavoidable. Besides, even if you have 10 acres or more, it's good to get a horse out and around.

Now you are 100% responsible for the safety of your animal, and you are 100% responsible for controlling your animal, and freeways are a no-go, and you shouldn't take a skittish or easily spooked horse anywhere around strangers or other people. (It's also not a good idea to spend too much time on concrete without special horseshoes as it's bad for their hooves). But all that being said, it's no different than expecting automobiles to accomodate pedestrians, cyclists, strollers, farm equipment and the like.

So I'm saying that while it's all well and good for you to say what you would (or wouldn't) do if you had a horse, I was simply pointing out that "staying off the roads" is not really practical for a lot of horse owners.
 
2013-05-06 12:34:10 PM
In these modern times no one needs a horse. We should ban them from public roads. You can still keep them but only on your property along with other reasonable restrictions.

Obama isn't trying to take your horses.
 
2013-05-06 12:35:40 PM

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: If you're on a spooky horse on a street, you're a nuisance and a danger to yourself, your horse and the general public.


You do understand this is not really the issue at hand here, right? And do you also understand that even a very calm, well trained horse can be spooked?
 
2013-05-06 12:37:27 PM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-05-06 12:40:53 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: If you're on a spooky horse on a street, you're a nuisance and a danger to yourself, your horse and the general public.

You do understand this is not really the issue at hand here, right? And do you also understand that even a very calm, well trained horse can be spooked?


It is the issue that I chose to go with (admittedly tangentially) and my point is, don't ride horses on the street if it's so farking dangerous even on the best of animals.
 
2013-05-06 12:47:19 PM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-06 12:48:40 PM

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: It is the issue that I chose to go with (admittedly tangentially) and my point is, don't ride horses on the street if it's so farking dangerous even on the best of animals.


It's not particualrly dangerous at all. What makes it dangerous is drivers who feel that th road belongs to them, and do not give reasonable space to a horse they share a stretch of road with. The reflective jackets are an effort to make sure that an automobile driver can see that there is a horse from as far away as possible so they can slow down and give the other 'vehicle' room as they pass. This is particularly important on widning country roads where you are likely to be travelling at speed and where horses are more likely to be sharing the road. That's all.

And for what it's worth, Horses have had the right of way on roads (excepting freeways) since before there were cars. Horses' "right to the road", just like pedestirans, technically precedes any right to the road of the extremely dangerous automobile.
 
2013-05-06 12:51:01 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Pista: On the subject of horses on the high street. It's quite rare really (except when the police do it for football matches & royal weddings & witch funerals).

Wait, whut?

/oh never mind, that was a thatcher shot.

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Expecting the rest of the world to slow down and "shush" because you're riding a horse that spooks easily is selfish, unrealistic, and rude.

Ummm.. no. They are saying that the rules of the road for automobiles have ALWAYS been to give a horse space when sharing the road, and not to buzz within 3 feet it at 70 MPH.


Agreed! As a pedestrian I don't think I would like somebody whizzing by me, within three fee at 70 mph.  I don't imagine even a "bomb proof" horse enjoying that either.
 
2013-05-06 12:58:39 PM
Horses are legal
Not all cars are
 
2013-05-06 01:19:23 PM

Mr Guy: the_foo: Mr Guy: Very rarely do I instantly get angry about a police reaction, but this is one of those times.

NO, Mister Officer, these people do NOT resemble an officer's uniform.  Just because it has the word "Polite" in block caps doesn't make it an attempt to impersonate anything.

Yeah, right. The "Please" vest seems fine, but "POLITE" doesn't make any grammatical sense. The only reason to use the word "POLITE" instead of "PLEASE" is because it resembles "POLICE".

Which, like I said, would matter if they were, say, directing traffic or the police were suing for copyright.  You can't be "impersonating" if all it takes is a second glance to disambiguiate.  They are mad about them using hazard colors with writing in them, as if mounted police have the exclusive lock on wearing hazard reflectors.  This is why we mock the nanny state.


In most jurisdictions, the impersonating a police officer charge requires the individual to present themself as an officer or attempt an authoritative action.  This is obviously not the case here.  Even if they wore vests that said "POLICE" on them, they still may not be impersonating an officer.
 
2013-05-06 01:27:14 PM
Remember, the average road shoulder in the UK is two inches of white paint.
THIS..

UK/Ireland country roads are basically cattle chutes compared to American roads. The hedges/stone walls come right up to the edge of the pavement, and the pavement is just wide enough for two cars to pass each other. Two lorries (trucks)? Fuggeddaboudit. Their roads originated from old footpath/Oxcart paths, and land is very expensive, and the owners were loathe to give up any more space than they actually had to for a road. So if you want to ride your horse anywhere, at some point you have to go down roads to get to gates that open up into the fields. Or jump over the hedges/stone walls like we do when foxhunting.

Poor, poor police dears trying to protect their "colors". At least the hi-vis jackets are practical, unlike the goofy leather outfits you see Philly cops walking around in. I got one of those hi-vis jackets at Countryside (Brit version of Agway) a few years ago during a visit (didn't say "polite", alas..). It titillated my engineering glands. Very techo, Euro, engineering thingy to wear in low visibilty. Red Kap markets them.
 
2013-05-06 01:28:26 PM

the_foo: Wow, a group worse than bicyclists. This should be fun. If your horse is spooked by vehicles, maybe not riding it on the farking road would be a thing to do?

Do they not have any fields left in the UK? Why do people insist on trying to force incompatible things to share the same space?


So cars own the road, and everyone else has to get the hell out of the way?

I keep a horse way out in the county in North Carolina, and there's times I can't avoid going on the road, and that's OK because the land is ZONED FOR LIVESTOCK.

Among all of the neighbors who are largely farmers, they need to move cattle, sheep, horses, and tractors on the country roads, and everyone who lives there understands how to share the road, i.e. you slow down and give animals and slow moving vehicles a wide berth.  The problem is people who want to drive 90 mph and refuse to slow down.  No matter how well trained a horse, there's always a chance it'll get spooked by a car that gets too close.  Not a big chance, but about the same chance that a motorcycle will skid in a turn, or a car will hit a slick patch and slide off the road.
 
2013-05-06 01:33:11 PM
FTA:  in the hope of encouraging motorists to give them more time and space.

Why don't they just ask this guy:
ichef.bbci.co.uk
 
2013-05-06 01:58:19 PM
czei:
So cars own the road, and everyone else has to get the hell out of the way?

The 19th Century is over, no matter how strongly a tiny minority wishes things were otherwise. The world has moved on, and it chose cars. If you use the roads, you don't get to be outraged that there are cars on them with people who actually want to get somewhere faster than 10 miles an hour.

I keep a horse way out in the county in North Carolina, and there's times I can't avoid going on the road, and that's OK because the land is ZONED FOR LIVESTOCK.

Somehow I doubt it's the riders heading to their neighbors farm in Bumfark, Northumberland that they're having problems with.

Among all of the neighbors who are largely farmers, they need to move cattle, sheep, horses, and tractors on the country roads, and everyone who lives there understands how to share the road, i.e. you slow down and give animals and slow moving vehicles a wide berth.  The problem is people who want to drive 90 mph and refuse to slow down.  No matter how well trained a horse, there's always a chance it'll get spooked by a car that gets too close.  Not a big chance, but about the same chance that a motorcycle will skid in a turn, or a car will hit a slick patch and slide off the road.
 
2013-05-06 02:03:39 PM

the_foo: Mr Guy: Which, like I said, would matter if they were, say, directing traffic or the police were suing for copyright.  You can't be "impersonating" if all it takes is a second glance to disambiguiate.  They are mad about them using hazard colors with writing in them, as if mounted police have the exclusive lock on wearing hazard reflectors.  This is why we mock the nanny state.

You do have an impressive nanny state, but as far as I can tell from the article, they're taking issue specifically with the word "POLITE", not with reflective vests in general. If they're going after anything else, then yes, they're wankers.


Right, but they are using an awfully loaded word to justify it.  It's true, at first glance someone might think it's a mounted cop.  Just like you might think someone driving a non-descript Crown Vic is a cop in many places in the United States.  It's still not "impersonating an officer" because a similar looking word is placed on a generic and universal piece of safety equipment.

However, if you ride your horse on the road and then complain that it's startled by cars, you are also a wanker. You knew there would be cars, and unless this is your first ride, you probably knew whether your horse is bothered by cars. And honestly, the road seems like the absolute least enjoyable place to ride a horse. The few times I've ridden a horse it's been out in open country, a park, or a farm or something.

This is the part I think gets lost in translation.  It's like people forget that England is largely much more rural than the United States, but even in the United States you don't have to go much outside major cities to instantly be in farm country, and in much of the country, we paved over horse trails to make the dang roads in the first place.  Those roads you are on USED to be open country, before we paved it because the cars need to go roughly the same places the horses need to go.   Horses need to be on the roads because most of the spaces in between roads is private property.
 
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