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(The Daily Galaxy)   Old and busted: Dark matter and dark energy; New hotness: A 'fifth force' which alters gravity at cosmic scale. Keepin' it fresh in the 'hood   ( dailygalaxy.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, dark energy, gravity, dark matter, Chandra X-ray Observatory, Galaxy groups and clusters, general relativity, Hubble Space Telescope, fifths  
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3091 clicks; posted to Geek » on 06 May 2013 at 12:11 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-05 09:10:17 PM  
We shall call it the Force.
 
2013-05-05 09:19:40 PM  
I dub thee Fifthmeal
 
2013-05-05 09:29:11 PM  
So we can create Ansibles
 
2013-05-05 09:50:16 PM  
Headline: "A fifth force may alter gravity at cosmic scales".

Article: "Jain and his colleagues ultimately did not see variation between their control sample of screened galaxies and their test sample of unscreened ones. Their results line up exactly with the prediction of Einstein's general relativity. "
 
2013-05-05 10:28:10 PM  
One of these days, in a few hundred years or so, people will look back on our current cosmology and shake their heads at our ignorance.  In a few hundred more, people will shake their heads at theirs.
 
2013-05-05 10:42:59 PM  
I'm really waiting for the day we figure out that the Universe is a giant cellular automaton with a cell size of one cubic Planck length and a cycle time of one Planck time, and that the automaton has, like, five rules.
 
2013-05-05 11:38:03 PM  
img2-2.timeinc.net
 
2013-05-05 11:52:54 PM  
I have altered gravity. Pray that I do not alter it further.
 
2013-05-06 12:05:15 AM  

Lord Dimwit: I'm really waiting for the day we figure out that the Universe is a giant cellular automaton with a cell size of one cubic Planck length and a cycle time of one Planck time, and that the automaton has, like, five rules.


So Time Cube is wrong, its really Time Pentagon?  You know, that does make a lot more sense than time cube.
 
2013-05-06 12:13:54 AM  
Is it magic?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-05-06 12:15:13 AM  

ShawnDoc: Lord Dimwit: I'm really waiting for the day we figure out that the Universe is a giant cellular automaton with a cell size of one cubic Planck length and a cycle time of one Planck time, and that the automaton has, like, five rules.

So Time Cube is wrong, its really Time Pentagon?  You know, that does make a lot more sense than time cube.


I want a Time Dodecahedron. They're so pretty.
 
2013-05-06 12:20:46 AM  
Everyone knows we're just an electron on a molecule of purple grass growing outside the Dark Tower anyway.
 
2013-05-06 12:24:33 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Is it magic?


Wow that is kind of obscure. Strong reference.
 
2013-05-06 12:24:41 AM  
Wasn't it something about gravity being weak because it's spread across multiple branes? As such, it's not especially strong in any one of them?

/oh crap, it's the Inhibitors
 
2013-05-06 12:28:57 AM  
And it will be...perfect.

1.bp.blogspot.com

/Mool-tee-pass
 
2013-05-06 12:29:40 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Is it magic?



No. It's your mom.
 
2013-05-06 12:34:59 AM  

js34603: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Is it magic?

Wow that is kind of obscure. Strong reference.


Not that obscure...
 
2013-05-06 12:35:36 AM  

Notabunny: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Is it magic?


No. It's your mom.


I thought that was gravity.
 
2013-05-06 12:42:56 AM  
(I'm no scientist so feel free to bash my idea/theory, I'm actually expecting it. I'm asking in order to learn more.)

Has anyone accounted for solar radiation's minute force over all matter in the universe? If we can already build working solar sails and prove that solar radiation can exert force on an object to move it 'forward' over long distances, why can't we apply that idea over the missing 'force' in the rest of the universe?

Could a collection of stars' (entire galaxy's) solar radiation generate enough force to allow another distance object to be pushed away? Could the sum of all solar radiation force of the universe contribute to this cosmic current?

Am I insane?
 
2013-05-06 12:43:38 AM  
Bhuvnesh is always spouting crazy theories like this.  Just ignore him.
 
2013-05-06 12:47:34 AM  

Hawnkee: And it will be...perfect.

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 485x364]

/Mool-tee-pass


The Fifth Element has...nipples.
 
2013-05-06 12:49:13 AM  
I read that as "Filth force" and thought of something completely different?


optional: Wasn't it something about gravity being weak because it's spread across multiple branes? As such, it's not especially strong in any one of them?

/oh crap, it's the Inhibitors


This is a revelation, space will never be the same.
 
2013-05-06 12:52:32 AM  

kayanlau: (I'm no scientist so feel free to bash my idea/theory, I'm actually expecting it. I'm asking in order to learn more.)

Has anyone accounted for solar radiation's minute force over all matter in the universe? If we can already build working solar sails and prove that solar radiation can exert force on an object to move it 'forward' over long distances, why can't we apply that idea over the missing 'force' in the rest of the universe?

Could a collection of stars' (entire galaxy's) solar radiation generate enough force to allow another distance object to be pushed away? Could the sum of all solar radiation force of the universe contribute to this cosmic current?

Am I insane?


No you're not insane, you just underestimate the size of the universe.  Our sun exerts a force on our probes that is barely measurable at this point, and is actually disappearing, and our probes (Voyager 1 and 2) are about 1/2000 of the way to the nearest star (though not going that direction AFAIK).  And Alpha Centauri is a very close neighbor, galactically speaking.
 
2013-05-06 12:59:22 AM  

czetie: Headline: "A fifth force may alter gravity at cosmic scales".

Article: "Jain and his colleagues ultimately did not see variation between their control sample of screened galaxies and their test sample of unscreened ones. Their results line up exactly with the prediction of Einstein's general relativity. "



This.
 
2013-05-06 12:59:38 AM  
I thought the Fifth Force was what distorted reality after drinking.
 
2013-05-06 01:00:00 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: kayanlau: (I'm no scientist so feel free to bash my idea/theory, I'm actually expecting it. I'm asking in order to learn more.)

Has anyone accounted for solar radiation's minute force over all matter in the universe? If we can already build working solar sails and prove that solar radiation can exert force on an object to move it 'forward' over long distances, why can't we apply that idea over the missing 'force' in the rest of the universe?

Could a collection of stars' (entire galaxy's) solar radiation generate enough force to allow another distance object to be pushed away? Could the sum of all solar radiation force of the universe contribute to this cosmic current?

Am I insane?

No you're not insane, you just underestimate the size of the universe.  Our sun exerts a force on our probes that is barely measurable at this point, and is actually disappearing, and our probes (Voyager 1 and 2) are about 1/2000 of the way to the nearest star (though not going that direction AFAIK).  And Alpha Centauri is a very close neighbor, galactically speaking.


True, but the force felt by our probes would be consistent with the inverse square law.  The overall force that each star exerts would not be though, and would instead be a function of the total number of photons it's emitting.

I guess the question would then become, can these forces sum up together over vast distances?  Intuition tells me no, they'd actually act to cancel each other out.  However I'm not a physicist, I just play one on TV.
 
2013-05-06 01:01:45 AM  
Wouldn't the Higgs field be a part of a 5th force now anyway?  The particle in question was a boson after all...
 
2013-05-06 01:07:56 AM  
img246.imageshack.us
 
2013-05-06 01:13:05 AM  

SJKebab: True, but the force felt by our probes would be consistent with the inverse square law.  The overall force that each star exerts would not be though, and would instead be a function of the total number of photons it's emitting.

I guess the question would then become, can these forces sum up together over vast distances?  Intuition tells me no, they'd actually act to cancel each other out.  However I'm not a physicist, I just play one on TV.


No, because the force of those photons, equivalent to the photon flux per unit area, decreases by the square of the distance, because though the number of photons on the surface of an imaginary sphere at an arbitrary radius from the Sun ideally stays the same, the surface area of such a sphere increases with... dun dun dunnnn... the square of the radius.  (4*pi*r^2). That's where the inverse square law comes from.

So no.  If you go even halfway to the nearest star, Alpha Centauri, the Sun is nothing more than a very weak point of light.  The solar wind itself has disappeared, because the interstellar wind (there is such a thing) far far outweighs it at that point.  It would be like being able to measure a butterfly's wings in California... even an entire flock of them... if the butterfly was in China, and China was on the Moon.

The "total force" is fairly meaningless and all you can speak of is more like a "force density".

And above all, astrophysicists take such things into account, and haven't simply overlooked it.

Further, since such solar forces tend to radiate equally in all directions, they are incapable of explaining something like why our galaxy rotates at a faster speed than predicted, which is very much a directional vector.
 
2013-05-06 01:33:25 AM  
I've kinda thought about this idea for awhile, and have a pet theory that is totally ignorant and devoid of any physics, but hear me out anyway. This is my interpretation of how the Forces of the Universe work.

The laws of physics seem to change depending on the dimensions of the observance, that the Universe has different rules for different quantities of itself. It's almost a gradation of realities that you can divide into neat layers of existence.

Level 1: The Energy Stage; things exist as pure events that pop in and out of existence. These events are so small and so short they can scarcely be considered to have occurred at all; gluons and photons (bosons) ruled by nuclear forces.

Level 2: The Mass Stage; things have density, physicality and a charge; electrons and quarks ruled by electro-magnetic force.

Level 3: The Matter Stage; things have size and weight and obey kinematics and Newtonian mechanics. This is the stage we exist in; atoms and molecules ruled by gravity.

Level 4: Theoretical Universal stage; things have distance and infinity; galaxies and clusters ruled by dark matter/energy. This is just a wild guess on my part.

It's interesting how the dominating force in every stage can affect things above it, but not below.
 
2013-05-06 01:38:11 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: One of these days, in a few hundred years or so, people will look back on our current cosmology and shake their heads at our ignorance. In a few hundred more, people will shake their heads at theirs


Religion: Ya, all the math falls apart so we are going to come up with an expliantion that can not be seen, can not be tested, and fills in most of the blanks. (God)

Science: Ya, all the math falls apart so we are going to come up with an expliantion that can not be seen, can not be tested, and fills in most of the blanks. (Dark Energy, Dark Matter, and now fith force)

I am not seeing the difference between the two.
_________________________________________________

Religion: Each of you must have a spade as part of your equipment. Whenever you relieve yourself, dig a hole with the spade and cover the excrement (Deuteronomy 23:13)

Science: After study of the plague science discovered...you soundn't shiat where you eat/sleep. (fourteenth century science)

Science is late to the 'don't shiat where you eat/sleep" bandwangon...but they say 'better late than never'.
_________________________________________________
 
2013-05-06 01:39:47 AM  
Thanks for that answer The All-Powerful Atheismo. I don't doubt your conclusions here at all, but allow me to continue the line of reasoning - I is learning.

The initial proposition: 

kayanlau: Could a collection of stars' (entire galaxy's) solar radiation generate enough force to allow another distance object to be pushed away?


For starters, before I get to carried away, What actually is the interstellar wind?  A quick google isn't helping out very much.  If it is merely the sum of many different stars' solar (stellar) winds', then the original idea still stands.   If it is something very different, then please enlighten.

I have a number of follow up questions, but it's all just wasted typing until this one is answered.
 
2013-05-06 01:47:39 AM  

SJKebab: For starters, before I get to carried away, What actually is the interstellar wind?  A quick google isn't helping out very much.  If it is merely the sum of many different stars' solar (stellar) winds', then the original idea still stands.   If it is something very different, then please enlighten.

I have a number of follow up questions, but it's all just wasted typing until this one is answered.


Try this article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium

It's mostly ionized hydrogen.  Like gas on earth, it has a pressure.  There are other things involved, such as microwave background radiation, which adds energy to the system.

When comparing it to solar radiation, you can think of the point (which is actually extremely variable, as the Sun's radiation pattern changes) where solar radiation stops as being the point where the force of solar radiation (per unit area) is equal to the pressure and turbulent motion of the interstellar medium.
 
2013-05-06 01:47:49 AM  
Don't know why I'm bothering with this one, but here goes....

Divinegrace: Benevolent Misanthrope: One of these days, in a few hundred years or so, people will look back on our current cosmology and shake their heads at our ignorance. In a few hundred more, people will shake their heads at theirs

Religion: Ya, all the math falls apart so we are going to come up with an expliantion that can not be seen, can not be tested, and fills in most of the blanks. (God).

And if you doubt this, we will kill you in the name of that Blank space.

Science: Ya, all the math falls apart so we are going to come up with an expliantion that can not be seen yet, can not be tested yet, and fills in most of the blanks, and is still consistant with all previously observed phenomena  (Dark Energy, Dark Matter, and now fith force). And if you doubt this, show your work.

I am not seeing the difference between the two.

See the difference now?
 
2013-05-06 01:49:33 AM  

Divinegrace: Religion: Ya, all the math falls apart so we are going to come up with an expliantion that can not be seen, can not be tested, and fills in most of the blanks. (God)

Science: Ya, all the math falls apart so we are going to come up with an expliantion that can not be seen, can not be tested, and fills in most of the blanks. (Dark Energy, Dark Matter, and now fith force)

I am not seeing the difference between the two.


If you are serious... and you don't see the difference...

A. you are really ignorant of science, and
B. you should probably not put words in scientists' mouths.
 
2013-05-06 01:49:44 AM  

SJKebab: Thanks for that answer The All-Powerful Atheismo. I don't doubt your conclusions here at all, but allow me to continue the line of reasoning - I is learning.

The initial proposition:  kayanlau: Could a collection of stars' (entire galaxy's) solar radiation generate enough force to allow another distance object to be pushed away?

For starters, before I get to carried away, What actually is the interstellar wind?  A quick google isn't helping out very much.  If it is merely the sum of many different stars' solar (stellar) winds', then the original idea still stands.   If it is something very different, then please enlighten.

I have a number of follow up questions, but it's all just wasted typing until this one is answered.


I'm imagining the solar wind - and by extension - interstellar wind as that coin pushing game ... it's a very rudimentary way of looking at it, but if we have a big enough (galactic, universal scale) version of a coin pushing game to look at, it may just be similar enough to simulate such pushing effects.
 
2013-05-06 01:54:38 AM  

Divinegrace: I am not seeing the difference between the two.


The difference is, when the scientific theory is proven wrong, it is thrown out and no one believes in it anymore.

This happens ALL THE TIME.
 
2013-05-06 01:54:58 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Try this article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium

It's mostly ionized hydrogen.  Like gas on earth, it has a pressure.  There are other things involved, such as microwave background radiation, which adds energy to the system.

When comparing it to solar radiation, you can think of the point (which is actually extremely variable, as the Sun's radiation pattern changes) where solar radiation stops as being the point where the force of solar radiation (per unit area) is equal to the pressure and turbulent motion of the interstellar medium.


That makes a lot of sense and answers my other questions too.  I'm happy.  Thanks again!
 
2013-05-06 01:59:17 AM  

Divinegrace: Religion: Each of you must have a spade as part of your equipment. Whenever you relieve yourself, dig a hole with the spade and cover the excrement (Deuteronomy 23:13)
Science: After study of the plague science discovered...you soundn't shiat where you eat/sleep. (fourteenth century science)
Science is late to the 'don't shiat where you eat/sleep" bandwangon...but they say 'better late than never'.


Meanwhile, the Bible still says that bats are birds (Leviticus 11:13-19), insects have four legs (Leviticus 11:20), rabbits chew cud (Leviticus 11:6), doctors can't cure people as well as God (2 Chronicles 16:12-13), the number Pi is 3 (1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2), ostriches don't take care of their eggs (Job 39:13-16), stars are smaller than the Earth (Revelation 8:10), the moon has its own light source (Isaiah 13:10), the Earth existed before the sun (Genesis 1:1), and it has absolutely appalling knowledge of female physiology (Deuteronomy 22:13-16). The Bible also said that the heart, not the brain, was the center of thought, emotion and moral understanding (dozens of references including John 14:1, Matthew 5:28, Luke 6:45, Ephesians 5:19, Isaiah 6:10 and Romans 10:10). There is also some 60 references, give or take, to the Earth being a flat circular disk, a flat square, fixed, supported by pillars or a foundation of some sort, surrounded by water, unmoving, unchanging or at the center of the solar system. Whenever they describe the dimensions of the Earth, there is never any mention of it being a sphere, circling the sun, or rotating on an axis.

But hey, you can hang your hat on the buried feces thing.
 
2013-05-06 02:03:59 AM  

SJKebab: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Try this article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium

It's mostly ionized hydrogen.  Like gas on earth, it has a pressure.  There are other things involved, such as microwave background radiation, which adds energy to the system.

When comparing it to solar radiation, you can think of the point (which is actually extremely variable, as the Sun's radiation pattern changes) where solar radiation stops as being the point where the force of solar radiation (per unit area) is equal to the pressure and turbulent motion of the interstellar medium.

That makes a lot of sense and answers my other questions too.  I'm happy.  Thanks again!


Another thing to consider is... yes, though the Sun does exert a force out to a certain point, it is so miniscule that our probes can barely feel it.  We're talking about pressures that are MANY MANY orders of magnitude lower than anything felt on earth.  Though they may have an effect on gases, or on something with a very large surface area but little mass (a solar sail), they would have almost no effect on a big massive object like another star or a galaxy.

Further, if you just added said forces from all the stars in our galaxy, you have to remember that the volume of space on which those solar winds are acting increases by an accordingly huge amount.

I guess the summary here is that though yes, there are solar winds which fit into the model of 4 forces that we currently use, their effect is so, so so, unimaginably tiny that they can't explain why stars in a galaxy rotate at different velocities than expected.  That is why dark matter was hypothesized in the first place.  Further, if I recall correctly, it was estimate that our galaxy has to be 10x more massive than we can determine visually in order to explain such a discrepancy.  It's like 90% of our galaxy is missing.  Maybe it was much higher than that.

At such scales... electromagnetic forces become almost irrelevant, and gravity dominates everything.
 
2013-05-06 02:04:35 AM  
The article says " the cluster 3C294 is10 billion light years from Earth". Given that the Big Bang was 14 billion years ago and the light has been traveling for 10 billion years, how did we get to be so far apart in 4 billion years?
 
2013-05-06 02:05:11 AM  

Ishkur: and it has absolutely appalling knowledge of female physiology (Deuteronomy 22:13-16).


Everyone knows that women are just devices built by the lord jesus christ for our amusement.
 
2013-05-06 02:07:24 AM  

wabu: The article says " the cluster 3C294 is10 billion light years from Earth". Given that the Big Bang was 14 billion years ago and the light has been traveling for 10 billion years, how did we get to be so far apart in 4 billion years?


Hubble expansion, space itself has been expanding since the Big Bang.
 
2013-05-06 02:17:33 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Further, if you just added said forces from all the stars in our galaxy, you have to remember that the volume of space on which those solar winds are acting increases by an accordingly huge amount.


This was my main tripping point.  I was thinking of space as being completely empty, rather than just pretty-damn-empty, and with that came the thought that there wouldn't be much to impede the travel of the solar winds.

I was actually imagining a scenario where star A is imparting a force on star B, with star B likewise returning the force to star A, and an object travelling at a constant speed from A to B would see the force initially pushing it towards B, at the halfway point, the force would be cancelled, and once the object was closer to B, the force would be felt pushing it back toward A.  Hence my initial thought that such a setup would self-cancel.  However, I also had in mind the cosmological constant and how that seems to be applying a very very tiny repulsive force at all points in space, and how this seems to account for a large component (maybe all of it?  don't know...) of the expansion of the universe.

The similarity of both ideas (tiny forces, lots of avenues for that force to express itself) made me entertain the thought that maybe there was something to kayaniau'sidea.

/I might've temporarily forgot that there's a lot more space than there is stars though.
//put down the bong Kebab
 
2013-05-06 02:22:31 AM  
SJKebab:
/I might've temporarily forgot that there's a lot more space than there is stars though.
//put down the bong Kebab


Cool.  Now let's both laugh at Divinegrace.
 
2013-05-06 02:30:36 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: SJKebab:
/I might've temporarily forgot that there's a lot more space than there is stars though.
//put down the bong Kebab

Cool.  Now let's both laugh at Divinegrace.


Fun for the whole family!
 
2013-05-06 03:08:08 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: One of these days, in a few hundred years or so, people will look back on our current cosmology and shake their heads at our ignorance.  In a few hundred more, people will shake their heads at theirs.


Yes, Allah and His chosen will remember us with pity.
 
2013-05-06 03:13:17 AM  
5 second female orgasm
/Find that nerds
 
2013-05-06 04:04:42 AM  

js34603: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Is it magic?

Wow that is kind of obscure. Strong reference.


Mandatory high school reading is obscure now? What constitutes as mainstream?
 
2013-05-06 04:13:41 AM  

awalkingecho: Mandatory high school reading


WAT
 
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