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(New York Daily News)   If 3D plastic guns are outlawed, only 3D plastic criminals will have them   (nydailynews.com) divider line 359
    More: Asinine, Chuck Schumer, Defense Distributed, Liberator, Security checkpoint, plastic guns  
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8327 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 May 2013 at 5:47 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-05 06:35:50 PM  
I'm confused. Does this guy actually think that if he gets 'blueprints' for replicating a plastic weapon banned... that will be the end of it? That it would be impossible for anyone with a modicum of drafting and engineering skills to draw up something similar?

I can see it now. A black market for printing schematics passed along by nefarious criminal types on flash drives.

Right.
 
IPS
2013-05-05 06:35:56 PM  
Oh what will the poor, poor, gun manufacturers do when everyone can just make their own.

Any idea on how long it will before gun mfg'ers come out against this to preserve themselves?

And what about the NRA, this is essentially what they've always lobbied for, arms for everyone. They're going to be all for it right?
 
2013-05-05 06:36:12 PM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Sure, someone can make an all-plastic AK-47 that can be buried in the backyard along with canisters of silver nickels and MREs but you have to remember the kind of person that would buy a 3D printer is also the kind of person that would have to load it down with so many useless after market parts like eight laser sights and a bayonet on both ends that it would be incapable of firing.


www.etymoticdefense.com

The future is here.
 
Rat [TotalFark]
2013-05-05 06:36:52 PM  
Aren't the boolits inside still made of metal???  And, if anyone actually watched the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA guys video, the upper is still made of metal.

© I swear, everything on the interweb is true
 
2013-05-05 06:37:37 PM  
brownribbon:

It is not undetectable. Certain gun parts will always need to be made from metal, most notably the firing pin and the barrel. Other materials can't stand up to the intense pressure and temperature.

Again, the only metal, non-printed part on this gun is a common hardware store nail that is used as a firing pin. The barrel is plastic.
 
2013-05-05 06:38:18 PM  

Southern100: redsquid: [farm5.staticflickr.com image 240x180]

[s3files.core77.com image 468x597]

The above items were produced with consumer level 3D printers. Look at how rough and imperfect the surface is. This technology will not produce the tolerances necessary for a working gun.

Why do you refuse to accept the fact that it already has?

Or do you just think this is all one big hoax?


I'm quite aware of a few AWs using industrial 3D technology to produce very unreliable guns. What I'm saying is that it's not really accessible to the criminal element and won't be any time soon. Yes you can make a lower receiver or a basic pistol with a high end industrial 3D printer. For the price of that printer you can get cases of reliable black market weapons. It is not a viable threat to anyone.
It's like holding up a copy of Playboy and saying it could be replicated on a home printer.
 
2013-05-05 06:38:59 PM  
Dimensio:
How would an individual smuggle ammunition onto a flight?

I would imagine you could hide a few bullets in something small, common, and benign that the x-ray doesn't penetrate, but I don't know much about airport x-ray machines.
 
2013-05-05 06:39:14 PM  

untaken_name: SockMonkeyHolocaust: Sure, someone can make an all-plastic AK-47 that can be buried in the backyard along with canisters of silver nickels and MREs but you have to remember the kind of person that would buy a 3D printer is also the kind of person that would have to load it down with so many useless after market parts like eight laser sights and a bayonet on both ends that it would be incapable of firing.

[www.etymoticdefense.com image 523x600]

The future is here.


I worked at a comic book store with a gun nut that used to bring his AR-15 that had a bunch of crap on it like that in and clean it in the back. The day he bought a grenade launcher for it was the happiest day of his life. I bet he has a 3D printer now and is happily bootlegging Games Workshop models while day dreaming about the working bolt pistol he's going to make.
 
2013-05-05 06:39:23 PM  

Rat: Aren't the boolits inside still made of metal???  And, if anyone actually watched the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA guys video, the upper is still made of metal.

© I swear, everything on the interweb is true


That's the rifle, which does still need a metal receiver.   The gun in this article is a handgun, and is entirely plastic.
 
2013-05-05 06:40:12 PM  

Southern100: redsquid: [farm5.staticflickr.com image 240x180]

[s3files.core77.com image 468x597]

The above items were produced with consumer level 3D printers. Look at how rough and imperfect the surface is. This technology will not produce the tolerances necessary for a working gun.

Why do you refuse to accept the fact that it already has?

Or do you just think this is all one big hoax?


By "working gun" he means a gun that you can take to the range and fire repeatedly and rely on in the case or a home invasion.

Unfortunately, but the real-world definition of the term, the only thing a working gun needs to do is fire a bullet.  Once.

And for most pissed-off-in-the-heat-of-the-moment people, once is all they need.
 
2013-05-05 06:41:30 PM  
I'm not sure I would want to be near it if it was fired, it may survive the first, but I'm not so sure about the second

/also for the design of that gun you could just make it out of ABS block, or regular injection molding, and it may make 2 shots before I want to be elsewhere

/still would only shoot one if it were in a mythbusters style rig where I was behind some sort of safety shield
 
2013-05-05 06:41:39 PM  

bugontherug: utah dude: what's an arsenel ?

Seriously? Nitpicking spelling? On Fark?

We do need a right to keep and bear arms--to protect ourselves from the tyranny of Grammar Nazis like you!

(for the record, I'm aware that was an epically bad pun)


the rest of your post was good?
 
2013-05-05 06:42:27 PM  

RexTalionis: untaken_name: RexTalionis: Considering that these printed guns also get destroyed after a few shots fired, they're almost perfect assassination weapons.

They don't vanish, dude. They just stop shooting properly. You'd probably want something more reliable for a real assassination.

It's a weapon that is undetectable by metal detectors that can be printed in someone's garage where the weapon will change and destroy the ballistic fingerprints of the rounds every time they fire, and will eventually be completely inoperative and can be melted down easily.


The gun may shatter at the crime scene and fall to the ground for investigators to piece together later. Also, it wouldn't be too hard to track 3D printer sales, or the materials the gun is made out of. It's a lot more evidence than police would have had if you had used an actual gun and taken it with you, to destroy later.

Also, if you're going to sneak a pistol into a high security event to perform an assassination, you're likely not planning on leaving anyways, right? Secret Service or the local security will be on you immediately. The goal is to get in, not to get out. That would be the only argument for the gun. They won't need to match ballistics. They will have you, and the fragments of your gun.
 
2013-05-05 06:42:47 PM  

Tellingthem: "Now anyone, a terrorist, someone who is mentally ill, a spousal abuser, a felon, can essentially open a gun factory in their garage," he said. "It must be stopped."


It's too late. As soon as someone uploads the files online you are already too late. You can ban the guns, you can ban the files, you can ban printing the guns, but it is already too late. You can't stop the internet, you can only slow it down. And just wait until hand held lasers become more powerful. We will then have untraceable phasers. No need to worry about bullets or noise suppression. Just a click and you can kill someone.


you can build a gun of slightly lesser quality from crap found at the hardware store

/damnit I'm not going to make one
//no really
 
2013-05-05 06:43:44 PM  
What the muzzle velocity on this thing?  My first instinct is that a plastic barrel is going to be nearly useless, and anything fired from this gun will have trouble even penetrating skin.
 
Rat [TotalFark]
2013-05-05 06:43:57 PM  

Southern100: Rat: Aren't the boolits inside still made of metal???  And, if anyone actually watched the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA guys video, the upper is still made of metal.

© I swear, everything on the interweb is true

That's the rifle, which does still need a metal receiver.   The gun in this article is a handgun, and is entirely plastic.


So thats a gun in that photo?  Ok, its not evil and black, so I was confused!  It looks all broke too.

© that being said, I do like the new wave of carbon fiber lowers I've been seeing recently.
 
2013-05-05 06:44:25 PM  

redsquid: [farm5.staticflickr.com image 240x180]

[s3files.core77.com image 468x597]

The above items were produced with consumer level 3D printers. Look at how rough and imperfect the surface is. This technology will not produce the tolerances necessary for a working gun. This isn't even considering the weakness of the thermoplastic used in the lower end 3D printers. Fear exists in the absence of knowledge.


i.imgur.com
Yes, look at the extreme precision of the the tooling on this firearm, such tolerances far beyond anything a machine could do!
 
2013-05-05 06:44:41 PM  

Molavian: So I just have to make plastic bullets, plastic shell casings, and plastic primers and we'll be set.


Actually one of the first 'plastic' materials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid

/probably work better without the camphor
 
2013-05-05 06:45:32 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: What the muzzle velocity on this thing? My first instinct is that a plastic barrel is going to be nearly useless, and anything fired from this gun will have trouble even penetrating skin.


It shoots through schools.
 
2013-05-05 06:46:52 PM  

redsquid: For the price of that printer you can get cases of reliable black market weapons


That may or may not be a justifiable argument. For the price of that printer, you can also print *unlimited* weapons (IE, as many as you want) for the cost of the material used to make them.

A better question would be, is there a criminal element that could use this type of technology? Certainly not your average street thug.. but something like gang warfare, where you need to supply weapons to all of your gang members that are completely untraceable? Possibly.
 
2013-05-05 06:50:04 PM  

vadum: I have never worked for the TSA, but unless they are using plastic bullets, I think they can still detect them.


I have invented this very hard but non-metallic material.

I think I'll call it....'glass'

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-05-05 06:51:06 PM  
it's sad that so many people here live in such utter fear that they think its best to ban things they don't like and cripple technological advancement because they dont trust their own neighbors to not be psychotic murderers. how you all make it to the toilet in the middle of the night is mind boggleing.

1. banning things is not a cure.
2. fearmongering technologies is not productive.
3. some humans will do horrible things while the majority won't.

if you can't accept #3 and demand #1 & #2 then either shut up or just lay down and die because you let the terrorists win and you have nothing productive or meaningful to contribute to the advancement of humanity anymore.
 
2013-05-05 06:52:47 PM  

jayphat: I dont know if this has pointed out yet, but aren't 3D printers, like, not cheap? And isn't the manufacturing process rather time consuming? Because I'm sure criminals are going to go into this idea.


I hate to use the word 'criminal', but people that commit crimes with guns are the type of people that would rather buy a $2 hamburger than cook one themselves.  They're going to either buy or steal guns, not spend hours and hours figuring out how to make one with a 3D printer, not to mention obtain all the other parts that you can't make out of plastic.
 
2013-05-05 06:53:34 PM  

Southern100: redsquid: For the price of that printer you can get cases of reliable black market weapons

That may or may not be a justifiable argument. For the price of that printer, you can also print *unlimited* weapons (IE, as many as you want) for the cost of the material used to make them.

A better question would be, is there a criminal element that could use this type of technology? Certainly not your average street thug.. but something like gang warfare, where you need to supply weapons to all of your gang members that are completely untraceable? Possibly.


Oh, are we going to pretend it is impossible to track 3D printer sales by speaking to the small handful of manufacturers in existence?
 
2013-05-05 06:53:39 PM  

GUTSU: [i.imgur.com image 577x428]

Yes, look at the extreme precision of the the tooling on this firearm, such tolerances far beyond anything a machine could do!


I would be scared to death to pull the "trigger" on that monstrosity. :)
 
2013-05-05 06:53:52 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: vadum: I have never worked for the TSA, but unless they are using plastic bullets, I think they can still detect them.

I have invented this very hard but non-metallic material.

I think I'll call it....'glass'

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 160x160]


I saw a guy shoot one of those out of a 12gauge, it dented a steel plate before exploding into a million pieces.
 
2013-05-05 06:53:54 PM  
How is the anti-gun crowd this clueless?  If you tried to fire this, the chamber would EXPLODE because it's made of farking PLASTIC.  Real gun barrels are made of chromoly steel, and that's done for a very good reason.  You MIGHT be able to get away with aluminum if it's a .22 or something, but plastic doesn't have anywhere near the required tensile strength.


assets.nydailynews.com
 
2013-05-05 06:55:02 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Antivirus companies can play their game in this market and make some money.  Add software to 3D printers that checks each file against a signature database and rejects files that print guns.  Charge subscription fees for updates.  Same business model they follow now.  Make it mandatory for all 3D printers and buyers.

Of course signature-based protection isn't complete.  For an additional fee, we can give you behavioral and heuristic real-time protection against uncatalogued "threats."  Anything that might be a gun part will be rejected.


who the fark would buy a printer which was only able to print certain approved patterns??
LOLOLOLOLOLL
FARK THAT shiat

esp since most people buying these printers will be printing custom made patterns. home made or what not.
the whole idea is silly
 
2013-05-05 06:56:18 PM  

GUTSU: redsquid: [farm5.staticflickr.com image 240x180]

[s3files.core77.com image 468x597]

The above items were produced with consumer level 3D printers. Look at how rough and imperfect the surface is. This technology will not produce the tolerances necessary for a working gun. This isn't even considering the weakness of the thermoplastic used in the lower end 3D printers. Fear exists in the absence of knowledge.

[i.imgur.com image 577x428]
Yes, look at the extreme precision of the the tooling on this firearm, such tolerances far beyond anything a machine could do!


Metal pipe is a lot more of a precisely milled material than thermo plastic. It's not just about tolerance. The barrel has to contain a great amount of force. The barrel also has to closely conform to the shape of the projectile to create a seal to propel the projectile out of the barrel with sufficient force to actually do damage. Bullet don't just spit a piece of lead out one end. I was firing an antique breach loading 22. rifle one time and the breach cracked on firing allowing the gas to escape and the lead actually got stuck in the barrel. (I'm really lucky I didn't lose an eye or worse!)
I'm not saying it's not possible to make a 3D printed gun, it's just not economically feasible for the terrorist and criminal elements.
 
2013-05-05 06:56:50 PM  

gibbon1: I hate to use the word 'criminal', but people that commit crimes with guns are the type of people that would rather buy a $2 hamburger than cook one themselves. They're going to either buy or steal guns, not spend hours and hours figuring out how to make one with a 3D printer, not to mention obtain all the other parts that you can't make out of plastic.


Haha, next your going to point out that the guns that are used to commit most crimes are cheapie almost-all-plastic Saturday night specials they bought off a straw buyer for $50 or stolen from idiots who can't be bothered to lock them up anyway.
 
2013-05-05 06:57:03 PM  
It's been 19 years since the last time someone trolled the Democrats this good. Charles Schumer and the Usual Suspects swallowed the hook back then too. http://www.nytimes.com/1994/12/28/us/bill-planned-to-ban-new-bullets. h tml

Nothing stops a charging Rhino!
s24.postimg.org
 
2013-05-05 06:57:45 PM  

Molavian: So I just have to make plastic bullets, plastic shell casings, and plastic primers and we'll be set.


Plastic casing, ceramic bullet and firing pin. If your average metal detector can pick up the tiny primer that ignites the cartridge, I'd be pretty damned surprised.
 
2013-05-05 06:57:47 PM  

dave2198: Oh, are we going to pretend it is impossible to track 3D printer sales by speaking to the small handful of manufacturers in existence?


But when 3D  printers begin to print themselves?
 
2013-05-05 06:58:08 PM  

serial_crusher: Impossible to detect?  I thought stuff like this was why they moved airports to backscatter machines instead of metal detectors?


Until someone makes a lethal bullet that isn't made of some kind metal, it's less of an issue than you might think.
 
2013-05-05 06:59:14 PM  

Dimensio: How would an individual smuggle ammunition onto a flight?


inside fake batteries ?
LOL
 
2013-05-05 07:00:20 PM  
we should make guns more dangerous so people "accidentally" shoot themselves more.
 
2013-05-05 07:00:21 PM  

mike_the_engineer: How is the anti-gun crowd this clueless?  If you tried to fire this, the chamber would EXPLODE because it's made of farking PLASTIC.  Real gun barrels are made of chromoly steel, and that's done for a very good reason.  You MIGHT be able to get away with aluminum if it's a .22 or something, but plastic doesn't have anywhere near the required tensile strength.


[assets.nydailynews.com image 635x422]


You can fashion a shotgun out of PVC if you wrap the barrel. I haven't made one myself, but I'd give one a fair chance of shooting off a shell successfully. Although with steel pipe you don't have to risk that.

I can only imagine what these idiots would do if they found out you can get a 3D printer that uses metal.
 
2013-05-05 07:00:36 PM  

mike_the_engineer: How is the anti-gun crowd this clueless?  If you tried to fire this, the chamber would EXPLODE because it's made of farking PLASTIC.  Real gun barrels are made of chromoly steel, and that's done for a very good reason.  You MIGHT be able to get away with aluminum if it's a .22 or something, but plastic doesn't have anywhere near the required tensile strength.


[assets.nydailynews.com image 635x422]


You make the plastic thick enough you could get off a shot, I'm not sure the the gun in question has thick enough plastic
 
2013-05-05 07:01:01 PM  

dave2198: Oh, are we going to pretend it is impossible to track 3D printer sales by speaking to the small handful of manufacturers in existence?


Staples (Office Supply store) is planning to start selling them The Cube 3-D Printer) in July for $1,299. Cash & Carry.

Whether that would work well enough to print one of these, I have no idea - but as time goes on, the technology will only get better, and the price will only get lower.

It will be impossible to track printer sales. Even now you can get them at a good computer swap meet.

Besides, even with the tens of thousands of printers already out there, what good will tracking sales do?
 
2013-05-05 07:01:16 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: vadum: I have never worked for the TSA, but unless they are using plastic bullets, I think they can still detect them.

I have invented this very hard but non-metallic material.

I think I'll call it....'glass'

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 160x160]


Sweet let me know when you figure out a way to propel it at high velocity without gun powder.
 
2013-05-05 07:01:46 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: Damnit, LazyTown madness was supposed to accompany that minor picture.


www.myfacewhen.net
 
2013-05-05 07:02:36 PM  

mike_the_engineer: How is the anti-gun crowd this clueless?  If you tried to fire this, the chamber would EXPLODE because it's made of farking PLASTIC.  Real gun barrels are made of chromoly steel, and that's done for a very good reason.  You MIGHT be able to get away with aluminum if it's a .22 or something, but plastic doesn't have anywhere near the required tensile strength.


[assets.nydailynews.com image 635x422]


I think you need to go to YouTube and search for "Defense Distributed" and watch the PLASTIC gun barrels fire bullets just fine.. including AK-47 style LR rifles.
 
2013-05-05 07:04:25 PM  
Read up on Defense Distributed and the kid who runs it.  Aside from politicians, everyone i know who has watched this kid talk for 10 minutes has come away thinking that his ultra-libertarian anarchism is just the most annoyingly adorable thing ever.  He's that kid who takes your poly-psi class just so he can show all those indoctrinated liberal hippie sheeple what happens when they debate a true critical thinker.  He's a joke.  That's it.

The guns he makes are zip guns.  You could make something just as good with some second hand milling machines and a little skill.  His only innovation is that he's subtracting the skill component and substituting top of the line 3d printers for the garage sale tools.  If you should be scared of his future at all, be scared that today, anybody with a little engineering know-how and a solid week of free time could make anything Defense Distributed intends to make at some time in the indeterminate future.
 
2013-05-05 07:04:46 PM  
Notice there is no video of someone firing the pistol. I wouldn't fire it. I saw a video of someone firing an AR15 with a printed  plastic receiver and it broke after three or four shots.

What round is it suppose to  fire? Until I see it fired I will assume it is bogus.
 
2013-05-05 07:04:56 PM  
I haven't read this thread, so if this has been said, I'm sorry, but it might be worth repeating:

You can not build a working gun out of plastic and expect it to work.  Can Not Be Done.  Only someone with a limited to zero knowledge of how guns work would think that plastic guns are a threat.

When you load a gun and pull the trigger, you are pretty much creating an explosion within the gun controlled in such a way that the bullet portion of the round flies out of the barrel of the gun and the gas used to expel the projectile is recycled to eject the spent cartridge allowing a new round to be loaded into the chamber.  That is why guns are made out of metal, strong metal, so that when the explosion is created within the gun, the gun doesn't blow up in your hands.  Plastic just doesn't have the strength.  It's fear mongering, nothing more, to suggest that you can build a gun out of plastic.  And only an idiot with zero knowledge of how guns function would even suggest such a thing.
 
2013-05-05 07:06:54 PM  

Southern100: redsquid: For the price of that printer you can get cases of reliable black market weapons

That may or may not be a justifiable argument. For the price of that printer, you can also print *unlimited* weapons (IE, as many as you want) for the cost of the material used to make them.

A better question would be, is there a criminal element that could use this type of technology? Certainly not your average street thug.. but something like gang warfare, where you need to supply weapons to all of your gang members that are completely untraceable? Possibly.


The tracability of weapons is not an infallible system. After changing hands several times during legal private sales or being stolen and fenced any weapon becomes untraceable. Criminals don't use registered weapons. The numbers will only lead to the last registered owner. There is the ballistic signature, but CSI has lead us to think that this is an infallible system. The patterns left by the lands and grooves of a barrel can be destroyed by striking bone, concrete or other obstacles. Even if a weapon can be tied to a crime any smart crook would have already gotten rid of it, so proving he pulled the trigger is a challenge.
 
2013-05-05 07:06:58 PM  

Nuuu: Read up on Defense Distributed and the kid who runs it.  Aside from politicians, everyone i know who has watched this kid talk for 10 minutes has come away thinking that his ultra-libertarian anarchism is just the most annoyingly adorable thing ever.  He's that kid who takes your poly-psi class just so he can show all those indoctrinated liberal hippie sheeple what happens when they debate a true critical thinker.  He's a joke.  That's it.

The guns he makes are zip guns.  You could make something just as good with some second hand milling machines and a little skill.  His only innovation is that he's subtracting the skill component and substituting top of the line 3d printers for the garage sale tools.  If you should be scared of his future at all, be scared that today, anybody with a little engineering know-how and a solid week of free time could make anything Defense Distributed intends to make at some time in the indeterminate future.


see the stapler gun up thread, probably took a few hours at most to make
 
2013-05-05 07:07:19 PM  

Great Janitor: I haven't read this thread, so if this has been said, I'm sorry, but it might be worth repeating:

You can not build a working gun out of plastic and expect it to work.  Can Not Be Done.  Only someone with a limited to zero knowledge of how guns work would think that plastic guns are a threat.

When you load a gun and pull the trigger, you are pretty much creating an explosion within the gun controlled in such a way that the bullet portion of the round flies out of the barrel of the gun and the gas used to expel the projectile is recycled to eject the spent cartridge allowing a new round to be loaded into the chamber.  That is why guns are made out of metal, strong metal, so that when the explosion is created within the gun, the gun doesn't blow up in your hands.  Plastic just doesn't have the strength.  It's fear mongering, nothing more, to suggest that you can build a gun out of plastic.  And only an idiot with zero knowledge of how guns function would even suggest such a thing.


Are you attempting to imply that the distinguished Senator Schumer is less than knowledgeable regarding firearms technology?

I suspect that you may next attempt to convince readers that Representative Carolyn McCarthy has attempted to ban firearm features without knowing what they actually are.
 
2013-05-05 07:07:33 PM  

thenumber5: Rincewind53: Honest Bender: Why do they "have" to outlaw them?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it perfectly legal for me to manufacture my own firearms now?  What difference does it make how I do so?  Or are things just legal until it becomes too easy to do?

Key word here is  plastic. aka, invisible to metal detectors, therefore more dangerous and not permissible under federal law (I think).

good thing there "Plastic Gun" has the metal barrel


..until some bright boy makes  ceramic barrels.
 
2013-05-05 07:07:37 PM  
Rincewind53


Honest Bender: Why do they "have" to outlaw them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it perfectly legal for me to manufacture my own firearms now? What difference does it make how I do so? Or are things just legal until it becomes too easy to do?

Key word here is plastic. aka, invisible to metal detectors, therefore more dangerous and not permissible under federal law (I think).

Which means they're already illegal and this is just more idiotic fear mongering. Don't forget the last time the dim's got on a later about "plastic guns" it was over a gun that did not exist.
 
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