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(Vice)   Turns out, some homeschooled kids are a little weird   (vice.com) divider line 327
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21946 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 May 2013 at 10:54 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-05 04:11:38 PM

j0ndas: Homeschoolers probably are a bit "weird", if by weird you mean educated, not caught up in fashion and music, interested in learning things totally not on the core curriculum, etc. My siblings have done just fine in swim team, Civil Air Patrol, tae kwon do, Boy Scouts, etc., and then later in a large variety of campus clubs (several have led said clubs) and in the business world. However, relating to most public-schooled teens is difficult, because most public-schooled teens are shallow and two grades behind homeschoolers of the same age. That's why homeschoolers tend to get along better with adults and less with most children - they have more in common with adults.

By the way, funny fact - that button mentioned in the article "Home's cool... Homeschool!" was probably sold by me personally at one of the conventions we went to back then. I and/or my brother usually manned our booth, and we'd sell about $100 of buttons on the side. Man, the button-making device gave us blisters, though.


I hope you've been enjoying the snarky responses you inspired. I certainly am!

My favorites are the ones who mock you for simply claiming to be educated...and expressing their thoughts via middle-school sentence structure and grammar errors. :)
 
2013-05-05 04:12:16 PM

simplicimus: Banned on the Run: In related news, pit bulls aren't bad dogs, they just have bad owners.

Dog Breeds generally follow the behavior they were bred for. Shepherds tend to group animals together. My Spaniels tend to alert me to the location of birds. Rat dogs tend to dig holes looking for rodents. Greyhounds chase things,etc.
What were Pit Bulls bred to do?
/Honest question.


Subdue cattle for execution from what I read a while back.  But according to wikipedia it seems they were bred to eat humans and destroy humanity.
 
2013-05-05 04:16:14 PM

leadmetal: Trolling plus a lesson in trolling? You're going to have to come up with something more creative than 'tin foil hat and paranoid' if you want to get me on the hook. Also, Who says I want replies? I don't care if anyone replies. Anyway, I've used both statistics and personal experiences before in threads like this. If I really wanted to piss people off and get them to write flaming replies, I learned the hard way that's the way to do it. I'm not in the mood for that today, thus I've largely avoided both intentionally.

However, if you want to read how the modern form of schooling in the USA damages children, I recommend reading what John Taylor Gatto has written on the subject. You'll find all the supporting cites you should ever want there. If that's not enough there are other authors who have addressed where modern government schooling comes from and what it is designed to do that you could read for yet more.


I find Gatto's message noble but naively reliant on being encapsulated in the academic bubble without the real world costs such ideas would require.  It only works if you have a parent who's devoted to teaching their child and identifying the appropriate times to do so and capable of doing both rather well and throughout the child's developmental life.  Great for rich folk who can piss away a dozen or so years of their life for every child every generation just to mold the next and hope they got it right.  Essentially it'd have worked better with single income family models and every second parent has the background of psychologist & educator.  Unrealistic, completely and utterly unrealistic.  Then to extend that and suggest that all home school, even the nutjob bible thumpers' version is better then the public school system?  Nope, lost all faith at that point.

Textbook definition of academic pipe dreamer, he did good work but he should have stayed where he was and molded the structure he had control over more to his own image.  But until the world looks more like startrek's then this one, his ideas are laughably unrealistic, especially as is the suggestion its a viable alternative to what's in place now.  He would do great things if he lived in a star trek like utopia though, I give him that.
 
2013-05-05 04:23:43 PM

orbister: nekom: I teach my daughter all that she needs to know, she's in Kindergarten but reading at least at a 3rd grade level.  She doesn't go to school to learn, she goes to school to make friends, and learn that while in this household she is the princess, in the rest of the world she's just another kid.  It's important to learn those lessons, and make those friends.

Did she have no friends before she went to school? Did she take no part in group activities outside her immediate family before she went to school?


In all fairness, in rural areas a child may well not. When the nearest child your age is ten miles away, the school day is the only time during which one might see other children. Not surprisingly, summers are a rather solitary three months.
 
2013-05-05 04:24:09 PM
leadmetal:
Corporate work isn't much different from school. It requires little effort but going above and beyond, thinking out of the box, and so forth are usually punished unless one has political protection. Pretty much like the school experience.

What sort of hogwash is this? I've worked for four companies as a HWe and this is the opposite of everything I've seen. You can't brush all of corporate work with such a broad brush. Though doing so appears to be consistent with your views of practically everything else.
 
2013-05-05 04:32:17 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: leadmetal:
Corporate work isn't much different from school. It requires little effort but going above and beyond, thinking out of the box, and so forth are usually punished unless one has political protection. Pretty much like the school experience.

What sort of hogwash is this? I've worked for four companies as a HWe and this is the opposite of everything I've seen. You can't brush all of corporate work with such a broad brush. Though doing so appears to be consistent with your views of practically everything else.


The only issues with thinking outside the box are 1) having to repeat the idea over and over again, each time using smaller and smaller words / buzzwwords and 2) goring someone's special project.
 
2013-05-05 04:47:25 PM

Jim_Callahan: Pretty much everyone who's looked into it should know that the quality of education and the socialization of the victims are both inferior to even public schooling,


[citation needed]
 
2013-05-05 04:47:36 PM

Mad Scientist: Popcorn Johnny: Buy they have great teeth.

Beat me to it.

[i169.photobucket.com image 422x532]


So I don't get the joke with this pic of the girl with the huge smile and home schooling please site the the thread so I can be let in on the joke
 
2013-05-05 04:51:08 PM

SlothB77: LesserEvil: Mad Scientist: Popcorn Johnny: Buy they have great teeth.

Beat me to it.

[i169.photobucket.com image 422x532]

Has anybody got a link to the original story behind this meme? It's been driving me nuts for years. The earliest reference I can find on Fark is December 2007.

There was a farker who was homeschooled and to prove how normal and well-adjusted he turned out in an in-thread flamewar, he posted a picture of his wife.  That is the picture he posted.

That turned out to be a huge mistake for him.  From what i remember, the word 'Oats' was used frequently in that thread after the wife pic was posted.


Thanks for clearing that one up.
 
2013-05-05 04:53:53 PM

FunkOut: I've known homeschooled kids. Their behaviour was like that of a foreign culture or alien planet, entirely dictated by the peculiarities of their own family. The ones I knew had no sense of personal space or boundaries.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

In other words, is it not possible that you notice someone weird, then enquire into their schooling, then take it as a valid data point if they were homeschooled?

It's like the way people in Britain think that all American tourists are fat, brash and obnoxious. They aren't, of course - the overwhelming majority of American tourists are charming. But we only notice the brash ones, and we expect them to be American.

I know a lot of home schooled children, socially and professionally. They are without exception well balanced, interesting and sociable people. Mind you, none of the ones I know come from the religious wacko minority of home edders here. and before you ask, I've met the parents ...
 
2013-05-05 05:07:28 PM

Qellaqan: I think Missouri's history is more complex. There was a northern sympathizing gov, but I believe he was replaced at some point. Many hangovers of the war exist still in mo which I think is odd for such a western state.


Well, it's arguably the least western of the western states.

Regardless, I was really just trying to find something nice to say about Missouri.  Oh, I like Mark Twain and tolerate Meramec Caverns.  That's all I've got for now.
 
2013-05-05 05:13:13 PM

simplicimus: Uchiha_Cycliste: leadmetal:
Corporate work isn't much different from school. It requires little effort but going above and beyond, thinking out of the box, and so forth are usually punished unless one has political protection. Pretty much like the school experience.

What sort of hogwash is this? I've worked for four companies as a HWe and this is the opposite of everything I've seen. You can't brush all of corporate work with such a broad brush. Though doing so appears to be consistent with your views of practically everything else.

The only issues with thinking outside the box are 1) having to repeat the idea over and over again,
each time using smaller and smaller words / buzzwwords and 2) goring someone's special project


I would argue that thinking outside of the box is what allows for more than just incremental improvements to products, in addition to significant improvements in both verification and validation. And while I'll grant that sometimes it can be difficult to get ideas accepted, sometimes the extra work is worth it
 
2013-05-05 05:19:52 PM

dumbobruni: dugitman: dumbobruni: cousin & her husband are anti-vax... assuming the kid survives their trip to India next year, of course.

No kidding. Yikes.

it really is quite something to behold. we can't dare question them, but the husband is very vocal in his criticism of others.

ugh, all around.

/he's a "hardcore libertarian"
//you don't say!


This sounds like the premise for Contagion 2. Jesus farking Chist.
 
2013-05-05 05:30:34 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: The professor that chairs the engineering department at my school once told us that home schooled kids almost always wash out before their third semester. They can't handle the work load (which is amazing btw).

/Don't know if this is anectodal or a peer reviewed factoid.
//All 3 of the home schooled kids who enrolled with me in 2011 have already withdrawn...




This is entirely possible, but his reasoning is a little narrow minded in my opinion. I was a homeschool student who dropped out of college twice, but it certainly didnt have anything to do with workload. On the contrary, after being used to learning at my own pace, college felt like downright torture. We moved at a snails pace, and I felt that my time was literally being wasted every day in class to the point that I just became so frustrated that I stopped going.

Started an electronics manufacturing company instead. If I want to learn something, i use a book or google.
 
2013-05-05 05:41:02 PM

Qellaqan: leadmetal: Many people are bringing up the social downsides of homeschooling but not bringing up the social downsides of government schooling. The social pressures of conforming and the damage done to those who refuse or cannot to conform are just as if not more damaging.  It's not like the children in schools are what one would call judgment free and accommodating of people who are different. Those of us who experienced them first hand know this although those who thrived in such an environment I don't expect to even recognize that it happens. 

Furthermore, the institution itself being about creating a more or less uniform product doesn't help matters any. This goes back the industrial mindset of the late 19th and early 20th century. It was a large part of the school system that it spawned. Uniform product, in this case workers, people, was considered beneficial and was something the traditional american schools did not produce. Traditional american schools were more like the happy homeschooling the author of TFA put forth as his own experience. One of independence, being treated as an adult, and resentment of being filed, indexed, numbered, etc...

Not enough bites, eh?

\duh, almost every aspect about a lot of socialization is conformation. Is this news?


The fact that conformity is so prized annoys me. What happened to "be the best YOU that you can be"?
 
2013-05-05 05:58:27 PM

HairBolus: RickN99: HairBolus: In families that home-school usually

1) The mother is unemployed and doesn't have anything better to do.
2) The family is cheap and in cases where the local public schools suck don't see why they should send their children to a private school since Mom is just as good as those fancy teachers.

#1 is often caused by "family values" that say a woman's place is in the home.

Cheapness is often self defeating - they won't move to a school district where the public schools don't suck because the taxes are higher, and heaven forbid that Mom get a job so that they can afford those taxes. Meanwhile houses in good districts are better investments than those where schools suck so home schoolers become trapped in declining communities.

Citations for any of the "facts" that you're asserting?

Here are some government figures on home schooling
Highest education level of parentsHigh school diploma or less             18,334 Vocational/technical or some college    15,177 Bachelor's degree/some graduate school   9,412 Graduate/professional degree             7,264
Household income$25,000 or less     16,776 $25,001 to $50,000  15,220 $50,001 to $75,000   8,576 Over $75,000         9,615
Homeschooling is weighted towards the poorer (and cheaper) and less educated.


That's useless information without corresponding information covering the total number of parents putting their child through any sort of education so you can gauge the percentage of students overall. If there are more parents altogether, who have less education and make less money, by a wide margin, than there are parent's in the wealthy/educated category, that data would show that those parents are overrepresented in the homeschooling group. Maybe not the total majority, but still more inclined to use the method per individual than other social strata.
 
2013-05-05 06:03:16 PM
it's all about the parents

there's nut job parents in the group my wife is/was on (no, really like I was tempted to have a cop at the last meeting type of crazy)
there's the angry people who are butt hurt about some minor thing in the public school and likely won't make it a full year before they send their kid back to public school
there's the folks who do it for religious reasons
there's folks who do it because the kid has add/adhd and think the school system won't work (middle daughter)
then there's folks who don't think the school system can do a good job for the kids for some reason or another
 
2013-05-05 06:07:19 PM
 jso2897: Stone Meadow: This is why the US should have a no-homeschooling law like Germany.

I would not choose homeschooling for my own children, but neither would I choose Germany as my model for civil liberty.

Contemporary Germany is nothing like Germany in the late 1930s to mid 1940s. Get over it. Germany is now far more liberal on civil positions than the most liberal of all liberal states in the US. For example, they teach sex education to 8 - 10 year olds with giant models of vulvae and penises, showing how the penis is inserted and all. They have no speed limits on the autobahn (but, obtaining a driver's license is not a brief trip to the DMV for a written test; it really requires a lot of driver's training with real practicing of situational driving conditions). They have decriminalized -- and now, maybe have legalized -- prostitution.


Germany may be very liberal, except if you want to homeschool your children.  Then you will be fined, and your children can be removed from your home.  Not a great example of civil liberty there.  Just ask the Romeikes
 
2013-05-05 06:09:36 PM

fnordfocus: Qellaqan: I think Missouri's history is more complex. There was a northern sympathizing gov, but I believe he was replaced at some point. Many hangovers of the war exist still in mo which I think is odd for such a western state.

Well, it's arguably the least western of the western states.

Regardless, I was really just trying to find something nice to say about Missouri.  Oh, I like Mark Twain and tolerate Meramec Caverns.  That's all I've got for now.


I meant western by civil war standards. Stl and kc are nice cities and nice cheap rent. Both have nice art museums. Schlafly and boulevard are worthy beers. But otherwise there isn't much excitement. For the most part, the rural parts are a methy waste of time.
 
2013-05-05 06:11:35 PM

mrlewish: Wait until homeschooling parents go after public school funds. Already did it with charter schools.


Considering what it costs, I'd like to at least offset the cost of school supplies and books on the taxes

/my wife would probably just order more stuff though
//
 
2013-05-05 06:15:58 PM

JohnnyFootball: We are thinking of homeschooling our two children. One is starting middle school and the other is finishing elementary. Our oldest had to serve detention for the first time this year, he was reading a book from home in class. He had to serve detention for not following directions (he was told to sit quietly, not read. Our youngest brought home ten worksheets that were completely filled in, he told us they were "shut-up sheets" he worked on when he finished sections of the standardized tests before time expired. They get bored with the pace of learning, it's only a matter of time before the lack of effort school requires transfers to the rest if their lives.


At least see if you can transfer them to a different school

see if there's a magnet school in your area if you do decide to keep them in public school
 
2013-05-05 06:23:46 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: simplicimus: Uchiha_Cycliste: leadmetal:
Corporate work isn't much different from school. It requires little effort but going above and beyond, thinking out of the box, and so forth are usually punished unless one has political protection. Pretty much like the school experience.

What sort of hogwash is this? I've worked for four companies as a HWe and this is the opposite of everything I've seen. You can't brush all of corporate work with such a broad brush. Though doing so appears to be consistent with your views of practically everything else.

The only issues with thinking outside the box are 1) having to repeat the idea over and over again,
each time using smaller and smaller words / buzzwwords and 2) goring someone's special project

I would argue that thinking outside of the box is what allows for more than just incremental improvements to products, in addition to significant improvements in both verification and validation. And while I'll grant that sometimes it can be difficult to get ideas accepted, sometimes the extra work is worth it


I agree that innovation is beneficial, and frequently difficult to get implement. On the other hand, management and consultants can pose quite an obstacle.
 
2013-05-05 06:28:13 PM

Fuzzjon: That's useless information without corresponding information covering the total number of parents putting their child through any sort of education so you can gauge the percentage of students overall.


It's also useless information unless you correlate the parents' qualifications with the children's learning levels. Maybe all those parents who didn't finish high school are home schooling 5 year olds?
 
2013-05-05 06:29:28 PM

HairBolus: RickN99: HairBolus: In families that home-school usually

1) The mother is unemployed and doesn't have anything better to do.
2) The family is cheap and in cases where the local public schools suck don't see why they should send their children to a private school since Mom is just as good as those fancy teachers.

#1 is often caused by "family values" that say a woman's place is in the home.

Cheapness is often self defeating - they won't move to a school district where the public schools don't suck because the taxes are higher, and heaven forbid that Mom get a job so that they can afford those taxes. Meanwhile houses in good districts are better investments than those where schools suck so home schoolers become trapped in declining communities.

Citations for any of the "facts" that you're asserting?

Here are some government figures on home schooling
Highest education level of parentsHigh school diploma or less             18,334 Vocational/technical or some college    15,177 Bachelor's degree/some graduate school   9,412 Graduate/professional degree             7,264
Household income$25,000 or less     16,776 $25,001 to $50,000  15,220 $50,001 to $75,000   8,576 Over $75,000         9,615
Homeschooling is weighted towards the poorer (and cheaper) and less educated.


So the 1999 numbers are all you're looking at?  If you could read your own damn chart you would see a shift in the numbers towards higher educated, higher income parents teaching their children at home
 
2013-05-05 06:30:09 PM

marymarch: Germany may be very liberal, except if you want to homeschool your children.


Or if you're Asian. Or Romany. Or Turkish. Germany is still a spectacularly racist society, and that's not just Bavaria.
 
2013-05-05 06:47:31 PM

simplicimus: Uchiha_Cycliste: simplicimus: Uchiha_Cycliste: leadmetal:
Corporate work isn't much different from school. It requires little effort but going above and beyond, thinking out of the box, and so forth are usually punished unless one has political protection. Pretty much like the school experience.

What sort of hogwash is this? I've worked for four companies as a HWe and this is the opposite of everything I've seen. You can't brush all of corporate work with such a broad brush. Though doing so appears to be consistent with your views of practically everything else.

The only issues with thinking outside the box are 1) having to repeat the idea over and over again,
each time using smaller and smaller words / buzzwwords and 2) goring someone's special project

I would argue that thinking outside of the box is what allows for more than just incremental improvements to products, in addition to significant improvements in both verification and validation. And while I'll grant that sometimes it can be difficult to get ideas accepted, sometimes the extra work is worth it

I agree that innovation is beneficial, and frequently difficult to get implement. On the other hand, management and consultants can pose quite an obstacle.


I think it depends a lot on the company where I have worked for the last 5 and a half years, management is really helpful. They do an important job AND they have the technical chops to assist in efforts. I think with respect to blocking outside the box ideas, ideally they only stand in the path of stupid ideas. Either way it's gonna take work to get something new approved, but if it's a good idea you'll win the battles and if it's a bad idea they will successfully prevent you and them from being hanged.
 
2013-05-05 06:49:11 PM

Ennuipoet: The scariest thing I can think of is this guy is probably not exaggerating about the kids he met.


No, the scariest thing is that the kids he wrote about in the article are now old enough to vote.
This is why so many southern states have come thisclose to getting their own FARK tags, along with Florida.

All you people from the south I see on forums like this who say "this isn't all of us!" and who have a decent number of working brain cells need to get your asses out their and vote, especially if you're republicans. If you can't see your way to voting for the democrat in the general election, at least make sure the crazy doesn't become the republican candidate in the primary.

This is your responsibility... or else people like these will elect your public officials and run your states.
It's up to you.
 
2013-05-05 07:10:03 PM

rewind2846: All you people from the south I see on forums like this who say "this isn't all of us!" and who have a decent number of working brain cells need to get your asses out there and vote...

/FTFM grammar nazi
 
2013-05-05 07:19:22 PM

Alonjar: This guy is basically me.

Same deal, moved to shiat tier school district in Virginia, ended up homeschooling as a cheaper alternative to private school.  Although I would go to a homeschool tutoring type facility 3 hours a day 3 days a week to learn from actual teachers and get help where needed... but the vast majority of stuff was self taught.

Myself and a few others were just.. normal people.  The "rest" were not.  I went to a public graduation ceremony with like 800 other homeschool children, and the main speaker went on a 5 minute rant about how gays are going to hell.  I thought my girlfriends (gay) aunt was going to explode.

Its a superior avenue of education for children with the drive and ability to self teach.  You can advance much more quickly than standard public schooling.  It does NOT take an entire year to learn.. well, fark.. anything.


My hubby and I are contemplating doing this, we're very worried about socialization though and other nutters.

We would prefer hippies to evangelicals though, the hippies are becoming prominent homeschoolers.
 
2013-05-05 07:32:53 PM
Danny and Denny were strictly forbidden from ever watching television; I was shocked upon learning that 12-year-old Danny had never heard of The Simpsons, let alone watched an episode.

2.bp.blogspot.com

That's probably good thing, seeing as they're on it.
 
2013-05-05 07:48:06 PM
Why can't I "home college" myself?  I figure if I were allowed to do so, I could earn a Master's degree in a couple years.
 
2013-05-05 07:56:38 PM

LesserEvil: Mad Scientist: Popcorn Johnny: Buy they have great teeth.

Beat me to it.

[i169.photobucket.com image 422x532]

Has anybody got a link to the original story behind this meme? It's been driving me nuts for years. The earliest reference I can find on Fark is December 2007.


I remember it, it was a thread similar to this and the guy said: "My wife was homeschooled and she turned out great!"  The thread laughed at him and called her a horseface.It wasn't that funny it was bullying.

Just like that shadowbox memorium of a farker's stillborn baby.

It isn't funny unless you're a virgin neckbeard in his mother's basement.
 
2013-05-05 08:07:48 PM
speaking of Europe, homeschooling is somewhat legal in France (as with many rules there, it depends on who you ask).

if your child has autism, you have two options: homeschool, or leave the country. it is still considered to be a psychological disorder and not a neurological one. most schools will not take autistic kids, and they are at risk of being institutionalized.
 
2013-05-05 08:15:00 PM

jso2897: Stone Meadow: This is why the US should have a no-homeschooling law like Germany.

I would not choose homeschooling for my own children, but neither would I choose Germany as my model for civil liberty.


They have to keep their citizenry on a pretty tight leash or else the trains start running on time.
 
2013-05-05 08:33:34 PM

j0ndas: That's why homeschoolers tend to get along better with adults and less with most children - they have more in common with adults.


THAT is the problem. I don't want my children to "get along better with adults and less with most children", I want them to get along with their peers. I want them to get along with other children first. They will have the rest of their lives to be adults, they can get along with other adults then. Let them be shallow and vapid. Let them indulge in the latest fads. Let them do stupid things, as long as those things don't result in permanent injury or jail time.

Let them be children while they are children. They only get one shot at it. That is one of the many reasons why I think sending them to school with others is important.
 
2013-05-05 08:41:45 PM

ladyfortuna: orclover: This IS a bookmark first of all.  My wife, myself and my mother all homeschool my youngest son (9) and have done so for almost a year now.  The reasons we do so and what led us to such a hard decision would take a 20 page article to explain.  To sum up, fark public school system and the power abusing farks they harbor. Not to mention the psychotic little shiats who run rampant through the halls physically abusing anybody they wish.   Getting him out of that meat grinder probably saved his life or at least his future sanity.

Too farking much to say on the subject.  Would need hours and a few dozen drinks to get it all out.  Just.  fark that god damn public school system and those farking teachers and that god damn principal and those psychotic farking kids.

/fark AISD
Depends entirely on the school system. I grew up in Monroe County NY, which has both some of the highest property taxes in the nation but also some really great school districts. They also hired a no-nonsense principle at the high school right when I got there who dealt with fights by calling the police and having charges filed, which was a huge deterrent. I saw one fight the entire time I was there (three years - freshmen had a separate building), and it was during midterms when no teachers were around.

Anyway that district was so good that my sister said it was leagues better than the private university she taught at in NW Ohio. That should tell you something, both about the district and probably NW Ohio...


That is the problem with the American public school system, you have to buy your way into a good district and since school districts are locally based, it creates a very fragmented system.

I would much rather have it be state-based with it coming out of an income and corporate taxes. That way everyone gets equal funding.
 
2013-05-05 08:46:45 PM

Mellotiger: Yep, that's how home-schoolers are. My only problem with the article is when he brought up the civil war. Thing is, it actually was about states rights and not just slavery. If it was about slavery, the emancipation proclamation would have happened before the war. Think about it. If the war was about stopping slavery, wouldn't slavery have been made illegal first and them the war would come after the south refused to comply?


And another who cannot make logic connections.
Lat me 'splain it to you, slowly... the Southern slaveholding states... fought as imagined sovereign territories... for the right... to own and traffic in... slaves. That is what they wanted the right to do, own and sell slaves. There was really nothing else that separated the two halves of the nation so distinctly as this.

Lincoln realized that the Proclamation would be useless unless those states were still part of the united states, so his goal was to make sure they continued to be a part of the whole, then apply the Emancipation Proclamation to the slaves held within. If you'll check, the Proclamation was signed in the third year of the war, january 1, 1863.
 
2013-05-05 08:50:10 PM

loonatic112358: HairBolus: RickN99: HairBolus: In families that home-school usually

1) The mother is unemployed and doesn't have anything better to do.
2) The family is cheap and in cases where the local public schools suck don't see why they should send their children to a private school since Mom is just as good as those fancy teachers.

#1 is often caused by "family values" that say a woman's place is in the home.

Cheapness is often self defeating - they won't move to a school district where the public schools don't suck because the taxes are higher, and heaven forbid that Mom get a job so that they can afford those taxes. Meanwhile houses in good districts are better investments than those where schools suck so home schoolers become trapped in declining communities.

Citations for any of the "facts" that you're asserting?

Here are some government figures on home schooling
Highest education level of parentsHigh school diploma or less             18,334 Vocational/technical or some college    15,177 Bachelor's degree/some graduate school   9,412 Graduate/professional degree             7,264
Household income$25,000 or less     16,776 $25,001 to $50,000  15,220 $50,001 to $75,000   8,576 Over $75,000         9,615
Homeschooling is weighted towards the poorer (and cheaper) and less educated.

So the 1999 numbers are all you're looking at?  If you could read your own damn chart you would see a shift in the numbers towards higher educated, higher income parents teaching their children at home


Did you read the table? The same general pattern holds for all years.

Would you want your high school age children in public or private school taught by someone who didn't graduate from college? A whole bunch of homeschoolers think that that is a good idea.
 
2013-05-05 09:29:48 PM

HairBolus: Did you read the table? The same general pattern holds for all years.Would you want your high school age children in public or private school taught by someone who didn't graduate from college? A whole bunch of homeschoolers think that that is a good idea.


I don't think you can read your own data, there has been a shift in the demographics from 1999 to 2007 in the chart you use, and I would think you'd be in favor of that.
Has the shift been to a 100% only college educated, no, has it been a noticeable improvement? I'd love to see if there was a chart from the last 5 years to find out if that trend had continued

Also, lack of a degree does not mean that a person is unqualified, all it means is that they were unable to attend college/university
 
2013-05-05 09:30:35 PM

Popcorn Johnny: jso2897: That was my problem - I discovered, to my shock, that I didn't have it - but i won't let it happen again, and you'd better not, either. Let this be a lesson to you.

Lesson learned. You wouldn't happen to have a spare copy of Rainbow Brite girl, would you?


i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-05 09:30:45 PM

rewind2846: Mellotiger: Yep, that's how home-schoolers are. My only problem with the article is when he brought up the civil war. Thing is, it actually was about states rights and not just slavery. If it was about slavery, the emancipation proclamation would have happened before the war. Think about it. If the war was about stopping slavery, wouldn't slavery have been made illegal first and them the war would come after the south refused to comply?

And another who cannot make logic connections.
Lat me 'splain it to you, slowly... the Southern slaveholding states... fought as imagined sovereign territories... for the right... to own and traffic in... slaves. That is what they wanted the right to do, own and sell slaves. There was really nothing else that separated the two halves of the nation so distinctly as this.

Lincoln realized that the Proclamation would be useless unless those states were still part of the united states, so his goal was to make sure they continued to be a part of the whole, then apply the Emancipation Proclamation to the slaves held within. If you'll check, the Proclamation was signed in the third year of the war, january 1, 1863.


Maybe keep reading until you see some of my other responses. I'm not saying it did not involve slavery, but if you think that it was only slavery that it was about, and that the war was to free the slaves, then you don't know history, period. The states in the south did want the freedom to keep their "way of life"or whatever, but its much deeper than slavery vs non slavery. Its well known that the president had many doubts about the emancipation proclamation, and in fact is known to have said that he would have pushed to keep slavery legal if that would have saved the union, but that outcome was not in the cards. Feel free to respond and be as condescending as you wish, but your attitude will not change history or my logic at all.
 
2013-05-05 09:34:57 PM
JWideman:  Instead, their father explained to me that he had taught them that there's no difference between fiction and lying. He shut the door in my face when I pointed out that he was lying to them.

The father must get a real kick out of one of the crucial scenes of the movie "Galaxy Quest."
 
2013-05-05 09:35:23 PM

mccallcl: Not really, no. What he's saying makes sense: home schooled kids spend more time with adults, so they act like adults. I don't have any opinion either way, except that you're probably just being sensitive. Lighten up.


Part of the public school experience is about learning how to govern yourself and get along in a group where everyone is on the surface equal, with the same status.  You can learn to choose a leader, to lead, to make alliances and consensus.

All the "talking to adults" stuff doesn't achieve that, because you're just putting the kid in an environment where social rules already determine who is on top and has to defer to whom.

The author of TFA strikes me as an unfortunate case if he already dropped out of college due to being unwilling to deal with rules.  He's missing out on all kinds of opportunities, really.

/at least in Japanese public schools it was that way
//but then the teacher doesn't step in to referee every little disagreement, either
 
2013-05-05 09:39:49 PM

jso2897: How to educate one's kids is a matter of personal choice, and people make different choices in that regard for different reasons. it would be nice if people could respect one another's decisions on the matter, but to read this thread, that's a skill neither public  nor private nor homeschooling teaches.


See, this is where you fail. I don't have to "respect" anothers decisions on the matter if I think that they are stupid for doing so, and can explain why. I obviously cannot stop them from making those decisions, nor would I want to... but that doesn't mean that I should not express my opinion of the subject in a forum such as this one.

That's how free speech works. If you do something stupid I have the right to call you out on it, and you have the right to refute my opinion. To you "respect" seems to mean "I should be able to do as I wish and no one should be able to say anything about it"... but the real world doesn't work like that.
 
2013-05-05 09:51:51 PM

leadmetal: What I find amusing is the assumption that government school does not push it's own agenda of conditioning the children to believe certain myths. That the methods of schooling weren't developed around the needs of government and corporations.


They absolutely do, which is why it's important to keep involved in your local schools (and to be vigilant about corporate takeover in the form of charter schools in particular).

But socialization through the public schools is part of their goal, yes, it's part of what supposedly helps the melting pot to give everyone a foundation of what it is to be "American."  How valuable that is debatable, but I suspect a lot of the homeschooling parents who currently love that everything is unregulated might start feeling differently if people decided to all homeschool and didn't do anything remotely like the precious "traditional basics, ah, the 50's..." schools they remember, and didn't bother teaching in English or anything even.

Qellaqan: But seriously, people who say they get along with adults better than peers *aren't* more socially adjusted. They're less socially adjusted. Maligning your peers doesn't diminish the fact that even if they're so simple, you still can't get along with them. I just utterly disagree with the whole "children who spend more time with adults are more mature" truism (calling all only children!). Children who spend more time with adults might learn to mimic adult social mores to a greater extent, but that isn't maturity. Socialization is really about getting along with everyone, or at least faking it.


Werd.

Ikahoshi: A friend worked in admissions at a fairly well respected university, and she said a surprising number of the homeschooled have something like a nervous breakdown or total academic implosion after the first or second semesters. Some students do- that's just the way of the world... some people have trouble adjusting. However, an inordinate number of the homeschooled seem to end up that way, to the point where it's almost stereotypical.

She since moved on to the fundraising department but before she left there were discussions as to whether or not they should be admitted in the first place given a large percentage of them flame out or just can't cope psychologically.


I also know some people in college admissions, and they say the homeschooling population seems to break widely - there are those who are almost absurdly over-prepared (IF they can hack the transition to being on an external schedule) and there are those who are so laughably unprepared that they don't even have a clue just how unprepared they are.   The latter group is not all religious homeschoolers, either - plenty of free wheeling hippie style "unschoolers" also fall into that category. (Not to say that unschooling is inherently bad, either, but it's easy for a lazy parent to eff it up - or more like it's easy for someone who just doesn't really give a shiat to call their benign neglect "unschooling.")
 
2013-05-05 09:57:21 PM

shortymac: That is the problem with the American public school system, you have to buy your way into a good district and since school districts are locally based, it creates a very fragmented system.

I would much rather have it be state-based with it coming out of an income and corporate taxes. That way everyone gets equal funding.


Agreed.
 
2013-05-05 10:03:13 PM

Mellotiger: rewind2846: Mellotiger: Yep, that's how home-schoolers are. My only problem with the article is when he brought up the civil war. Thing is, it actually was about states rights and not just slavery. If it was about slavery, the emancipation proclamation would have happened before the war. Think about it. If the war was about stopping slavery, wouldn't slavery have been made illegal first and them the war would come after the south refused to comply?

And another who cannot make logic connections.
Lat me 'splain it to you, slowly... the Southern slaveholding states... fought as imagined sovereign territories... for the right... to own and traffic in... slaves. That is what they wanted the right to do, own and sell slaves. There was really nothing else that separated the two halves of the nation so distinctly as this.

Lincoln realized that the Proclamation would be useless unless those states were still part of the united states, so his goal was to make sure they continued to be a part of the whole, then apply the Emancipation Proclamation to the slaves held within. If you'll check, the Proclamation was signed in the third year of the war, january 1, 1863.

Maybe keep reading until you see some of my other responses. I'm not saying it did not involve slavery, but if you think that it was only slavery that it was about, and that the war was to free the slaves, then you don't know history, period. The states in the south did want the freedom to keep their "way of life"or whatever, but its much deeper than slavery vs non slavery. Its well known that the president had many doubts about the emancipation proclamation, and in fact is known to have said that he would have pushed to keep slavery legal if that would have saved the union, but that outcome was not in the cards. Feel free to respond and be as condescending as you wish, but your attitude will not change history or my logic at all.


No, I do not think that slavery was "all" the war was about, not by a longshot... but it was a major part of why the war was fought, because that "peculiar" institution was what made the south run, politically, economically, and most important, socially. Anyone who would disturb what to these people was a balanced system as the enemy, even through the civil rights era and southern rants about "outside northern agitators stirring up our good nigras".  Slavery was such an integral part of who they were as a people, that asking them to give it up would be like asking someone to cut off their own arm.
"How dare they tell us what to do!" is an attitude many who whine about "states rights" still hold today.
Slavery was the foundation of their lives, and they were not going to give it up without a fight, which they started at Fort Sumter.

btw, presidents have doubts about bills and laws that they draft and sign all the time. This was new territory, as an enslaved people had never been set free in this country before, especially one which had been in bondage for so long.
 
2013-05-05 10:17:07 PM

orclover: aevorea: I'm a special ed teaching assistant. I work with special ed kids in the mainstream classroom


Our oldest son has been in "special ed" since grade 3, he's 15 now.  The majority of what I have seen of the Special Education system has been one horrifying nightmare after another punctuated by seasonal meetings that last up to 3 hours with groups of 5 to 15 people (including superintendents, teachers, faculty of all sorts and visiting "specialist" of every sort).  The meetings mostly seem to serve the purpose of having all the senior members pat each other on the back and our sons name occasionally thrown into the conversation, usually by me or his mother.  His classroom in Jr. High was an abomination.  A storage room for teenagers in the furthest portable building on the campus.  It smelled of freshly cleaned urine and feces on every visit, there was visible damage on virtually everything.  The "students" spent their time playing on game systems they brought or watching cartoons on tv, there wasn't even a shadow of an attempt to educate them.  We would receive the usual report cards from the school:  Aced english, math, history, farking everything A to A+, they all did.  He never took a test. He could barely read or write, knew nothing of history but what we had taught him.  At one of the larger meetings I finally lost my shiat and raised hell about it.  They apologized and said they would look into it.  His next grades were all solidly 70 across the board on the next report card, and he still had not taken a single test.

Lady, if given the ability I would burn the whole damn education system to the farking ground.  No offense to you.  But what we have here is an atrocity, If I believed in hell I would hope they all burn.  But there is no hope, no change, no stopping it and our children serve no purpose other than to be chewed up by the machine and then shiat out into society.  I wish there was an affordable alternative to this other than refusing to play.


My brother is handicapped and we went through the system as well.

In Elementary school it wasn't so bad, he got bused to the "special ed" class at another school in another school district.

When he was about to go to middle school instead of sending him to the special ed class the local middle school insisted that they could handle my brother's case there... by throwing him in with the ESL kids.

They just wanted the extra special ed money and didn't give a damn, my parents had to put my brother in a private school about 1.5 hours away and then sued the district over it.

Thankfully it was only for that one year BUT we didn't get the private school money back until the case got settled a few years later.
 
2013-05-05 10:30:39 PM

loonatic112358: Also, lack of a degree does not mean that a person is unqualified, all it means is that they were unable to attend college/university


Sure, it is possible that someone who hasn't been to college might do a good job preparing someone for college - though difficult since they may have warped views about college. Overconfidence from lack of experience can really mess up things. Stupid or unknowledgeable people tend to overestimate their abilities because they don't know better.

High schools require their teachers to be college grads so at least they have some direct knowledge of what they should be preparing the students for.

Some of the problems with homeschoolers is that they are trying to clone themselves and if their kids are stupid in the same way they are then that is good.
 
2013-05-05 10:36:36 PM

rewind2846: Mellotiger: rewind2846: Mellotiger: Yep, that's how home-schoolers are. My only problem with the article is when he brought up the civil war. Thing is, it actually was about states rights and not just slavery. If it was about slavery, the emancipation proclamation would have happened before the war. Think about it. If the war was about stopping slavery, wouldn't slavery have been made illegal first and them the war would come after the south refused to comply?

And another who cannot make logic connections.
Lat me 'splain it to you, slowly... the Southern slaveholding states... fought as imagined sovereign territories... for the right... to own and traffic in... slaves. That is what they wanted the right to do, own and sell slaves. There was really nothing else that separated the two halves of the nation so distinctly as this.

Lincoln realized that the Proclamation would be useless unless those states were still part of the united states, so his goal was to make sure they continued to be a part of the whole, then apply the Emancipation Proclamation to the slaves held within. If you'll check, the Proclamation was signed in the third year of the war, january 1, 1863.

Maybe keep reading until you see some of my other responses. I'm not saying it did not involve slavery, but if you think that it was only slavery that it was about, and that the war was to free the slaves, then you don't know history, period. The states in the south did want the freedom to keep their "way of life"or whatever, but its much deeper than slavery vs non slavery. Its well known that the president had many doubts about the emancipation proclamation, and in fact is known to have said that he would have pushed to keep slavery legal if that would have saved the union, but that outcome was not in the cards. Feel free to respond and be as condescending as you wish, but your attitude will not change history or my logic at all.

No, I do not think that slavery was "all" the war was about, not by a lo ...


Umm, Slavery was abolished in Canada and England before the civil war started.
 
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