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(Pittsburgh Tribune-Review)   Number of MLB defensive shifts increased by 200% from 2010 to 2013, based on statistical findings that players other than Ted Williams and Barry Bonds have strong batted-ball tendencies. Stat geeks win yet another battle with old-schoolers   (triblive.com) divider line 89
    More: Interesting, Barry Bonds, Major League Baseball, Ted Williams, STATS LLC, Brett Lawrie, inside edge, Clint Hurdle, Neal Huntington  
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716 clicks; posted to Sports » on 05 May 2013 at 8:18 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-05 08:30:03 AM
Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid. But being in the right place on defense isn't an art form either, it's guessing and luck. Baseball really isn't complicated. Stop trying to make it sound like there's science behind it.

/"The name of the game is hit the ball, catch the ball and get the farking job done"
 
2013-05-05 08:46:57 AM
Brian Kenny still sucks
 
2013-05-05 09:10:33 AM
Stat geeks fail to remember that Ted Williams hit .344 for his career, and Barry Bonds hit .298 with all the other ancillary statistics. In other words, the shift didn't work on subby's two examples, not even when Williams hit into it because he was too stubborn to slap one to the opposite field, something he could easily have done pretty much any time he wanted to.
 
2013-05-05 09:16:53 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stat geeks fail to remember that Ted Williams hit .344 for his career, and Barry Bonds hit .298 with all the other ancillary statistics. In other words, the shift didn't work on subby's two examples, not even when Williams hit into it because he was too stubborn to slap one to the opposite field, something he could easily have done pretty much any time he wanted to.


I always love when people say this like it is easy. If it was so easy everybody would be doing it and hitting over .300. Batting involves a lot of muscle memory, and once you train your muscles to react one way it is hard to try to train them to react in another way. Then add in that pitchers often throw pitches to try to get batters to hit the ball in a certain area.
 
2013-05-05 09:24:41 AM

ongbok: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stat geeks fail to remember that Ted Williams hit .344 for his career, and Barry Bonds hit .298 with all the other ancillary statistics. In other words, the shift didn't work on subby's two examples, not even when Williams hit into it because he was too stubborn to slap one to the opposite field, something he could easily have done pretty much any time he wanted to.

I always love when people say this like it is easy. If it was so easy everybody would be doing it and hitting over .300. Batting involves a lot of muscle memory, and once you train your muscles to react one way it is hard to try to train them to react in another way. Then add in that pitchers often throw pitches to try to get batters to hit the ball in a certain area.


I'm talking about Ted friggin' Williams, dude. You can argue that there is some mythology about him, but he has the highest career batting average of any player that never saw the dead-ball era. I remember reading that he said he hit into the shift just to prove that it didn't work. I have zero problem believing that he could have gone to a vacated left field pretty much any time he wanted to.
 
2013-05-05 09:39:08 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: he has the highest career batting average


See, right there is when everybody stopped listening to you. Call me when you use a metric that actually reflects performance.
 
2013-05-05 09:41:51 AM

ongbok: Then add in that pitchers often throw pitches to try to get batters to hit the ball in a certain area.


Pretty much this.

Most pitchers aren't lights out 100mph fastball kinda guys. They're gonna try and make you hit it somewhere for an easy out.
 
2013-05-05 09:42:51 AM

abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid


And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.
 
2013-05-05 09:49:55 AM
I believe it was Ty Cobb who stated "you gotta hit it where  they ain't".
Shift seems to work on Ryan Howard.
 
2013-05-05 09:50:21 AM

Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.


Do you think that pitchers are throwing them the ball outside when the defense is in the shift? They are pitching to them so they will hit the ball into the shift. Throwing a fastball outside would defeat the purpose of the shift.
 
2013-05-05 09:55:05 AM

bubbaprog: Adolf Oliver Nipples: he has the highest career batting average

See, right there is when everybody stopped listening to you. Call me when you use a metric that actually reflects performance.


Exactly.  Something infallible, like WAR.
 
2013-05-05 10:00:16 AM
Barry Bonds, one of the batters that influenced the current trend of defensive shiats, didn't have "strong batted-ball tendencies"?
 
2013-05-05 10:00:46 AM
Pix or that shift didn't happen.
 
2013-05-05 10:02:30 AM

ongbok: Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.

Do you think that pitchers are throwing them the ball outside when the defense is in the shift? They are pitching to them so they will hit the ball into the shift. Throwing a fastball outside would defeat the purpose of the shift.


I thought pitchers just tossed the ball up there, hoping to get close to the strike zone. Are you telling me there are a series of complex defensive strategies that weren't used when I was playing Acme Ball?
 
2013-05-05 10:02:44 AM
Congratulations, dorks. You still can't run to first base without tripping, you're still afraid of the ball, and you still can't get laid. But you win this battle. Good job.
 
2013-05-05 10:04:22 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stat geeks fail to remember that Ted Williams hit .344 for his career, and Barry Bonds hit .298 with all the other ancillary statistics. In other words, the shift didn't work on subby's two examples, not even when Williams hit into it because he was too stubborn to slap one to the opposite field, something he could easily have done pretty much any time he wanted to.


This post is bad and you should feel bad.

Opposite field singles don't do as much to help a team as homers, even with some outs mixed in. Despite more walks and a higher batting average, his bat was less valuable in 2002 than 2001.
 
2013-05-05 10:06:13 AM

bubbaprog: Adolf Oliver Nipples: he has the highest career batting average

See, right there is when everybody stopped listening to you. Call me when you use a metric that actually reflects performance.


To be fair, when we're talking strictly about performance on batted balls in play (which is the subject here), batting average is pretty relevant.
 
2013-05-05 10:14:44 AM

tonyb316: I believe it was Ty Cobb who stated "you gotta hit it where  they ain't".
Shift seems to work on Ryan Howard.


Wee Willie Keeler but good point. Mr. Cobb would have gone the other way for a double, then knifed the shortstop for having the audacity to allow his team to try that feckless nonsense on him.

When I was in high school, I bought Ted Williams' book "The Science of Hitting", and immediately added 150 points to my BA (sorry bubbaprog, it was the only metric available to me at the time). I'd recommend that book to anyone who wants to understand hitting.

Moopy Mac: Barry Bonds, one of the batters that influenced the current trend of defensive shiats, didn't have "strong batted-ball tendencies"?


He tended to bat the ball strongly. :)
 
2013-05-05 10:17:42 AM

Dawg47: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stat geeks fail to remember that Ted Williams hit .344 for his career, and Barry Bonds hit .298 with all the other ancillary statistics. In other words, the shift didn't work on subby's two examples, not even when Williams hit into it because he was too stubborn to slap one to the opposite field, something he could easily have done pretty much any time he wanted to.

This post is bad and you should feel bad.

Opposite field singles don't do as much to help a team as homers, even with some outs mixed in. Despite more walks and a higher batting average, his bat was less valuable in 2002 than 2001.


Opposite field singles, when hit into a shift, tend to become opposite field doubles. Willie McCovey once bunted for a double, scoring Willie Mays from first, against a shift.

Sabermetricians have done more to turn me off of baseball than anything the players might have done. It used to be fun to talk about, now you need a damn degree. Of course, that makes it easier to bullshiat, like your comment above. I'd make up some stuff about how homers are valueless and throw some vague statistics at it, but then you'd come back with more incomprehensible metrics that nobody cares about except Internet geeks.
 
2013-05-05 10:18:11 AM

ongbok: Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.

Do you think that pitchers are throwing them the ball outside when the defense is in the shift? They are pitching to them so they will hit the ball into the shift. Throwing a fastball outside would defeat the purpose of the shift.


True, but I have seen the pitchers miss their spot on many occasions.  He's expecting inside pitching, but if one drifts outside?
 
2013-05-05 10:24:51 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Dawg47: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stat geeks fail to remember that Ted Williams hit .344 for his career, and Barry Bonds hit .298 with all the other ancillary statistics. In other words, the shift didn't work on subby's two examples, not even when Williams hit into it because he was too stubborn to slap one to the opposite field, something he could easily have done pretty much any time he wanted to.

This post is bad and you should feel bad.

Opposite field singles don't do as much to help a team as homers, even with some outs mixed in. Despite more walks and a higher batting average, his bat was less valuable in 2002 than 2001.

Opposite field singles, when hit into a shift, tend to become opposite field doubles. Willie McCovey once bunted for a double, scoring Willie Mays from first, against a shift.

Sabermetricians have done more to turn me off of baseball than anything the players might have done. It used to be fun to talk about, now you need a damn degree. Of course, that makes it easier to bullshiat, like your comment above. I'd make up some stuff about how homers are valueless and throw some vague statistics at it, but then you'd come back with more incomprehensible metrics that nobody cares about except Internet geeks.


You're admitting that "homers are more valuable than singles" is too sophisticated for you to discuss?  Look, if sabermetrics isn't your bag that's fine, but don't confuse your inability to understand it with a lack of validity.
 
2013-05-05 10:28:45 AM

Marcus Aurelius: I have seen the pitchers miss their spot on many occasions. He's expecting inside pitching, but if one drifts outside?


Or the hitter can adjust also, setting up so an inside pitch is right where he wants it to take it to the opposite field. Plus, now the pitcher has effectively lost half of the strike zone. You burn a team in a shift a few times, and they'll knock that shiat off tout suite.
 
2013-05-05 10:31:41 AM

Super Chronic: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Dawg47: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stat geeks fail to remember that Ted Williams hit .344 for his career, and Barry Bonds hit .298 with all the other ancillary statistics. In other words, the shift didn't work on subby's two examples, not even when Williams hit into it because he was too stubborn to slap one to the opposite field, something he could easily have done pretty much any time he wanted to.

This post is bad and you should feel bad.

Opposite field singles don't do as much to help a team as homers, even with some outs mixed in. Despite more walks and a higher batting average, his bat was less valuable in 2002 than 2001.

Opposite field singles, when hit into a shift, tend to become opposite field doubles. Willie McCovey once bunted for a double, scoring Willie Mays from first, against a shift.

Sabermetricians have done more to turn me off of baseball than anything the players might have done. It used to be fun to talk about, now you need a damn degree. Of course, that makes it easier to bullshiat, like your comment above. I'd make up some stuff about how homers are valueless and throw some vague statistics at it, but then you'd come back with more incomprehensible metrics that nobody cares about except Internet geeks.

You're admitting that "homers are more valuable than singles" is too sophisticated for you to discuss?  Look, if sabermetrics isn't your bag that's fine, but don't confuse your inability to understand it with a lack of validity.


I'm admitting nothing. What I'm saying is that you guys can make up stuff, cover it with all kinds of weird metrics that only you understand, and declare victory in whatever argument you're trying to make. For my part, I'll stick to batting averages and traditional metrics. It's remarkable how that's held baseball in good stead for more than a century.
 
2013-05-05 10:32:40 AM

Marcus Aurelius: ongbok: Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.

Do you think that pitchers are throwing them the ball outside when the defense is in the shift? They are pitching to them so they will hit the ball into the shift. Throwing a fastball outside would defeat the purpose of the shift.

True, but I have seen the pitchers miss their spot on many occasions.  He's expecting inside pitching, but if one drifts outside?


We could always quote the greatest baseball mind there ever lived, Tim McCarver here: "When you miss outside, you give up a hit. When you miss inside, you give up a home run."
 
2013-05-05 10:35:35 AM

Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.


If a guy like Ryan Howard is trying to hit an opposite field single, you've turned him into Juan Pierre. It's still a win for the team in the field IMO.
 
2013-05-05 10:37:36 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Opposite field singles, when hit into a shift, tend to become opposite field doubles. Willie McCovey once bunted for a double, scoring Willie Mays from first, against a shift.


Damn! I'd have loved to have seen that. And that's why shifts can be counter-productive. The penalty for failure is so much greater than the reward for success, that I can't see the utility of it except in certain, extremely isolated situations.
 
2013-05-05 10:43:52 AM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Opposite field singles, when hit into a shift, tend to become opposite field doubles. Willie McCovey once bunted for a double, scoring Willie Mays from first, against a shift.

Damn! I'd have loved to have seen that. And that's why shifts can be counter-productive. The penalty for failure is so much greater than the reward for success, that I can't see the utility of it except in certain, extremely isolated situations.


I disagree. If you have information that shows an overwhelming tendency, why wouldn't you play to it? Sure, there's potential to exploit it, but like I said above it comes at the cost of turning a hitter into something he isn't.

And I wouldn't exactly consider McCovey bunting for a double once to be statistically significant.
 
2013-05-05 10:48:42 AM

FreakinB: And I wouldn't exactly consider McCovey bunting for a double once to be statistically significant.


True, but if it costs you a game, and you lose the pennant by that one game, then it becomes statistically monstrous.

The cat having sat upon a hot stove lid, will not sit upon a hot stove lid again. But he won't sit upon a cold stove lid, either.
-Mark Twain
 
2013-05-05 10:52:42 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: What I'm saying is that you guys can make up stuff, cover it with all kinds of weird metrics that only you understand, and declare victory in whatever argument you're trying to make. For my part, I'll stick to batting averages and traditional metrics. It's remarkable how that's held baseball in good stead for more than a century.


I hate the old boys club of baseball. Yes, there are a lot of weird metrics I don't understand. But it's not rocket science to figure out that shiat like batting average is a worthless stat. "Its the way we've always done it" has been a terrible excuse used for everything for all time. Move forward, for god's sake.
 
2013-05-05 10:54:21 AM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: FreakinB: And I wouldn't exactly consider McCovey bunting for a double once to be statistically significant.

True, but if it costs you a game, and you lose the pennant by that one game, then it becomes statistically monstrous.

The cat having sat upon a hot stove lid, will not sit upon a hot stove lid again. But he won't sit upon a cold stove lid, either.
-Mark Twain


Um, sure. But I'm pretty sure that the chance extra outs from a shift generally outweighs the chance of something like that happening.
 
2013-05-05 11:00:16 AM

FreakinB: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: FreakinB: And I wouldn't exactly consider McCovey bunting for a double once to be statistically significant.

True, but if it costs you a game, and you lose the pennant by that one game, then it becomes statistically monstrous.

The cat having sat upon a hot stove lid, will not sit upon a hot stove lid again. But he won't sit upon a cold stove lid, either.
-Mark Twain

Um, sure. But I'm pretty sure that the chance extra outs from a shift generally outweighs the chance of something like that happening.


Mayyybee. But I wouldn't want to bet my job on it. If it works, you've recorded an out. But if it fails, and you lose, you're a bum, and and idiot, and it's your fault that your (ex?) team is golfing in October.
 
2013-05-05 11:02:23 AM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: FreakinB: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: FreakinB: And I wouldn't exactly consider McCovey bunting for a double once to be statistically significant.

True, but if it costs you a game, and you lose the pennant by that one game, then it becomes statistically monstrous.

The cat having sat upon a hot stove lid, will not sit upon a hot stove lid again. But he won't sit upon a cold stove lid, either.
-Mark Twain

Um, sure. But I'm pretty sure that the chance extra outs from a shift generally outweighs the chance of something like that happening.

Mayyybee. But I wouldn't want to bet my job on it. If it works, you've recorded an out. But if it fails, and you lose, you're a bum, and and idiot, and it's your fault that your (ex?) team is golfing in October.


I think you're taking this a bit far.
 
2013-05-05 11:04:43 AM

FreakinB: I think you're taking this a bit far.


Of course, I am. But I'm enjoying the argument. Now you defend the old way, and I'll defend the shift! C'mon, it'll be fun!
 
2013-05-05 11:04:44 AM
The Rays have been doing this for years, and its been working.
 
2013-05-05 11:12:18 AM

FreakinB: Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.

If a guy like Ryan Howard is trying to hit an opposite field single, you've turned him into Juan Pierre. It's still a win for the team in the field IMO.


Not only have you turned Ryan Howard into Juan Pierre, you've turned him into Juan Pierre without the speed to steal bases or take the extra base on another hit - so you've actually made Ryan Howard a less valuable offensive player than Juan Pierre.
 
2013-05-05 11:13:33 AM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: FreakinB: I think you're taking this a bit far.

Of course, I am. But I'm enjoying the argument. Now you defend the old way, and I'll defend the shift! C'mon, it'll be fun!


Ty Cobb spiking biatches!! Why isn't it that way?!
 
2013-05-05 11:16:16 AM

Rex_Banner: FreakinB: Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.

If a guy like Ryan Howard is trying to hit an opposite field single, you've turned him into Juan Pierre. It's still a win for the team in the field IMO.

Not only have you turned Ryan Howard into Juan Pierre, you've turned him into Juan Pierre without the speed to steal bases or take the extra base on another hit - so you've actually made Ryan Howard a less valuable offensive player than Juan Pierre.


And can Howard go to the opposite field? It isn't something every hitter can do, and the one that are able to do it can't just do it at the drop of a hat.  Having a batter try to go opposite field against the shift will most likely end in the batter striking out.
 
2013-05-05 11:16:23 AM

FreakinB: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: FreakinB: I think you're taking this a bit far.

Of course, I am. But I'm enjoying the argument. Now you defend the old way, and I'll defend the shift! C'mon, it'll be fun!

Ty Cobb spiking biatches!! Why isn't it that way?!


LOL, I surrender. You're absolutely right!
 
2013-05-05 11:24:32 AM

SilentStrider: The Rays have been doing this for years, and its been working.


Hold on, let them argue about that one time someone beat the shift.

/bs bunt double, clearly a single and advance on the throw to home.
 
2013-05-05 11:31:13 AM

thecpt: SilentStrider: The Rays have been doing this for years, and its been working.

Hold on, let them argue about that one time someone beat the shift.

/bs bunt double, clearly a single and advance on the throw to home.


I call BS on your BS.
 
2013-05-05 11:41:08 AM
I knew about Berry's last year but I couldn't see anything from the other ones. Was the shift on? I was talking about the mention up thread .
 
2013-05-05 11:42:34 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: thecpt: SilentStrider: The Rays have been doing this for years, and its been working.

Hold on, let them argue about that one time someone beat the shift.

/bs bunt double, clearly a single and advance on the throw to home.

I call BS on your BS.


"snick" Hey Adolf, lets go see what you caught in your trap. Ooh, that's a big-un.
 
2013-05-05 11:48:57 AM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Marcus Aurelius: I have seen the pitchers miss their spot on many occasions. He's expecting inside pitching, but if one drifts outside?

Or the hitter can adjust also, setting up so an inside pitch is right where he wants it to take it to the opposite field. Plus, now the pitcher has effectively lost half of the strike zone. You burn a team in a shift a few times, and they'll knock that shiat off tout suite.


Yep, adjust your stance a bit and change the timing on your swing just a little and that hit to left field becomes a hit to center or right field.
 
2013-05-05 01:04:27 PM
Here's a fun question. When does a shortstop cease being a shortstop? Suppose he spends the entire game playing in a shift, in the spot normally occupied by the second baseman, and the named second baseman plays short right field. Is he now the 2nd second baseman? What if he and the right fielder switch places? Is it required to reassign position designators, or can you continue to call him the shortstop? It seems to me, that the only true assigned positions should be pitcher and catcher.
 
2013-05-05 01:06:54 PM
Not much in baseball changes by a factor of 3 in 3 years, so I'm going with some other statistical fluke to be most of the cause.

On the other hand, the value of the shift for a few batters has never been a question. I just think it's a case now of the stats fans being able to learn from their computers what baseball people have always known.
 
2013-05-05 01:19:31 PM
Oh man, I am not awake enough for this thread. But here goes nothing:

abhorrent1: Stop trying to make it sound like there's science behind it.


Why? There clearly IS science behind it. Check out, for instance, the work of Alan Nathan at the University of Illinois.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Barry Bonds hit .298


There's a few problems with batting average, and this right here highlights one of them. It includes both Home Runs and strikeouts, both of which have absolutely nothing to do with the shift. If you use BABIP to get rid of them, then he's at .285.

Of course, that STILL includes things like "hits to the outfield", which the infield shift would clearly not affect. We only have batted ball data since 2002, but since that time, Bonds hit .197 on ground balls, .117 on fly balls and .752 on line drives (still using BABIP). Comparatively, Juan Pierre, since 2002, has hit .241 on grounders, .120 on fly balls and .644 on line drives.

thecpt: SilentStrider: The Rays have been doing this for years, and its been working.

Hold on, let them argue about that one time someone beat the shift.

/bs bunt double, clearly a single and advance on the throw to home.


You're forgetting that errors aren't really applied correctly. For instance, take the Quintin Berry bunt double here:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2012-and-bunting-for-power/

If the second baseman had gotten a glove on the ball, it probably would've been an error. But he didn't, and errors are almost never called if the ball doesn't touch anyone.
 
2013-05-05 01:22:03 PM
I really need to read Jonah Keri's book.
 
2013-05-05 01:27:10 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: It seems to me, that the only true assigned positions should be pitcher and catcher.


According to the rule book, this is true. For everyone else, they're playing whatever they were said to be playing on the lineup card, unless the manager announces a change.

The more interesting scenario involves the 5 man infield.

lunchinlewis: Not much in baseball changes by a factor of 3 in 3 years, so I'm going with some other statistical fluke to be most of the cause.


You're ignoring (or, more likely, you don't know) that Hit F/X started in 2009 and Field F/X started in 2011, and both are available to major league teams.  Those two things would make it far more obvious when shifts would be best.
 
2013-05-05 02:00:40 PM

Marcus Aurelius: abhorrent1: Doing something that isn't working because it's "tradition" is farking stupid

And I have yet to see of these overshifted hitters drop the bat head on an outside pitch to bloop the ball where the shortstop was supposed to be.  If a guy like Ryan Howard did that just a few times, the overshift would be over.

The morons are the ones behind the plate.


Ryan Howard first needs to learn how to hit an inside slider. Then he can try and figure out how to pull the ball.
 
2013-05-05 02:20:15 PM

DeWayne Mann: There's a few problems with batting average, and this right here highlights one of them

.

I'm glad that you don''t dismiss BA out of hand. It may be a flawed and inaccurate statistic, but it still has its uses. It's easy to compute, it indicates success or failure over the long term, and it is fan-friendly.

/"haha" at the dumbass Yankee fan that just threw Luke Montz' homerun ball back just now
 
2013-05-05 02:29:12 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: There's a few problems with batting average, and this right here highlights one of them.

I'm glad that you don''t dismiss BA out of hand. It may be a flawed and inaccurate statistic, but it still has its uses. It's easy to compute, it indicates success or failure over the long term, and it is fan-friendly.

/"haha" at the dumbass Yankee fan that just threw Luke Montz' homerun ball back just now


If all you care about is "how often does an at-bat" result in a hit, then batting average is the best tool for that. But for just about anything else, there are better stats available.
 
2013-05-05 02:33:06 PM

DeWayne Mann: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: There's a few problems with batting average, and this right here highlights one of them.

I'm glad that you don''t dismiss BA out of hand. It may be a flawed and inaccurate statistic, but it still has its uses. It's easy to compute, it indicates success or failure over the long term, and it is fan-friendly.

/"haha" at the dumbass Yankee fan that just threw Luke Montz' homerun ball back just now

If all you care about is "how often does an at-bat" result in a hit, then batting average is the best tool for that. But for just about anything else, there are better stats available.


But once again, they're harder to compute, and more difficult for the average fan to grasp. The newer stats are much more useful and less fuzzy, but only hard-core fans can comprehend what they reveal.
 
2013-05-05 02:36:05 PM

DeWayne Mann: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: There's a few problems with batting average, and this right here highlights one of them.

I'm glad that you don''t dismiss BA out of hand. It may be a flawed and inaccurate statistic, but it still has its uses. It's easy to compute, it indicates success or failure over the long term, and it is fan-friendly.

/"haha" at the dumbass Yankee fan that just threw Luke Montz' homerun ball back just now

If all you care about is "how often does an at-bat" result in a hit, then batting average is the best tool for that. But for just about anything else, there are better stats available.


Batting average has to be looked at with other stats to get the full picture. For example if my batting average is .340 and 90% of my hits are singles and I don't steal bases or can't go from 1st to third on a single to right, then I'm not much use offensively. But then you have a guy who's batting average is .270, but he gives himself up to move runners from second to third, has high pitch count at bats, and gets a lot of extra base hits. He is more valuable to you offensively than the first guy.
 
2013-05-05 02:41:20 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: There's a few problems with batting average, and this right here highlights one of them.

I'm glad that you don''t dismiss BA out of hand. It may be a flawed and inaccurate statistic, but it still has its uses. It's easy to compute, it indicates success or failure over the long term, and it is fan-friendly.

/"haha" at the dumbass Yankee fan that just threw Luke Montz' homerun ball back just now

If all you care about is "how often does an at-bat" result in a hit, then batting average is the best tool for that. But for just about anything else, there are better stats available.

But once again, they're harder to compute, and more difficult for the average fan to grasp. The newer stats are much more useful and less fuzzy, but only hard-core fans can comprehend what they reveal.


1. How many people actually compute batting average by hand?

Besides, I'd argue OBP is easier to compute than BA.

2. People don't comprehend what batting average does either, though. Doesn't stop them from using it.
 
2013-05-05 02:51:09 PM

DeWayne Mann: 1. How many people actually compute batting average by hand?

Besides, I'd argue OBP is easier to compute than BA.

2. People don't comprehend what batting average does either, though. Doesn't stop them from using it.


True, most people don't. I do it out of habit, but you're right OBP is just as easy. BA tends to fuzzify ("fuzzify"? Really?) true batter's performance, but it does give some indication of success or failure. It is better than no stats at all.
 
2013-05-05 02:57:03 PM

ongbok: For example if my batting average is .340 and 90% of my hits are singles and I don't steal bases or can't go from 1st to third on a single to right, then I'm not much use offensively.


But if you always look like you're trying really hard, slide head-first into every base and hang on for the 24 years it takes to break the career hits record, you'll have fanboys calling you one of the greatest of all time!
 
2013-05-05 03:10:26 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: 1. How many people actually compute batting average by hand?

Besides, I'd argue OBP is easier to compute than BA.

2. People don't comprehend what batting average does either, though. Doesn't stop them from using it.

True, most people don't. I do it out of habit, but you're right OBP is just as easy. BA tends to fuzzify ("fuzzify"? Really?) true batter's performance, but it does give some indication of success or failure. It is better than no stats at all.


Most of this is also true of the hitter stat "runs per game." But there's a reason no one uses that anymore.
 
2013-05-05 03:27:51 PM

DeWayne Mann: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: 1. How many people actually compute batting average by hand?

Besides, I'd argue OBP is easier to compute than BA.

2. People don't comprehend what batting average does either, though. Doesn't stop them from using it.

True, most people don't. I do it out of habit, but you're right OBP is just as easy. BA tends to fuzzify ("fuzzify"? Really?) true batter's performance, but it does give some indication of success or failure. It is better than no stats at all.

Most of this is also true of the hitter stat "runs per game." But there's a reason no one uses that anymore.


As an addendum, from the 1860s to 1875, the New York Clipper would declare the league leader in R/G to be that year's best hitter. In 1876, they changed to H/G.
 
2013-05-05 04:06:55 PM

DeWayne Mann: DeWayne Mann: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: 1. How many people actually compute batting average by hand?

Besides, I'd argue OBP is easier to compute than BA.

2. People don't comprehend what batting average does either, though. Doesn't stop them from using it.

True, most people don't. I do it out of habit, but you're right OBP is just as easy. BA tends to fuzzify ("fuzzify"? Really?) true batter's performance, but it does give some indication of success or failure. It is better than no stats at all.

Most of this is also true of the hitter stat "runs per game." But there's a reason no one uses that anymore.

As an addendum, from the 1860s to 1875, the New York Clipper would declare the league leader in R/G to be that year's best hitter. In 1876, they changed to H/G.


That's a cool trivia tidbit. Sorry it took me so long to answer, my computer got commandeered by a 5-year-old. She claims that I lost this argument, also. :)
 
2013-05-05 04:14:42 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: DeWayne Mann: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: 1. How many people actually compute batting average by hand?

Besides, I'd argue OBP is easier to compute than BA.

2. People don't comprehend what batting average does either, though. Doesn't stop them from using it.

True, most people don't. I do it out of habit, but you're right OBP is just as easy. BA tends to fuzzify ("fuzzify"? Really?) true batter's performance, but it does give some indication of success or failure. It is better than no stats at all.

Most of this is also true of the hitter stat "runs per game." But there's a reason no one uses that anymore.

As an addendum, from the 1860s to 1875, the New York Clipper would declare the league leader in R/G to be that year's best hitter. In 1876, they changed to H/G.

That's a cool trivia tidbit. Sorry it took me so long to answer, my computer got commandeered by a 5-year-old. She claims that I lost this argument, also. :)


Early stat stuff is often really interesting. Most of it was influenced by cricket (hence the use of runs instead of hits), and teams played different amounts of games (hence the use of per game stats, rather than raw totals). The best resource I know of for that kind of history is the classic book "The Hidden Game of Baseball," by Pete Palmer & John Thorne. Thorne is now actually the official historian for MLB. Unfortunately, the book can be difficult to find nowadays.
 
2013-05-05 04:33:14 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Here's a fun question. When does a shortstop cease being a shortstop? Suppose he spends the entire game playing in a shift, in the spot normally occupied by the second baseman, and the named second baseman plays short right field. Is he now the 2nd second baseman? What if he and the right fielder switch places? Is it required to reassign position designators, or can you continue to call him the shortstop? It seems to me, that the only true assigned positions should be pitcher and catcher.


There was a game where the RF and LF switched placed repeatedly based on the handedness of the hitter (putting the outfielder who knew what he was doing on the pull side). The box score for each of these guys reads "[Name], RF-LF-RF-LF-RF-LF-RF".

/I have no idea when it happened or who was involved
//Vernon Wells is hitting like Vernon Wells again........
 
2013-05-05 04:52:15 PM

Rex_Banner: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Here's a fun question. When does a shortstop cease being a shortstop? Suppose he spends the entire game playing in a shift, in the spot normally occupied by the second baseman, and the named second baseman plays short right field. Is he now the 2nd second baseman? What if he and the right fielder switch places? Is it required to reassign position designators, or can you continue to call him the shortstop? It seems to me, that the only true assigned positions should be pitcher and catcher.

There was a game where the RF and LF switched placed repeatedly based on the handedness of the hitter (putting the outfielder who knew what he was doing on the pull side). The box score for each of these guys reads "[Name], RF-LF-RF-LF-RF-LF-RF".

/I have no idea when it happened or who was involved
//Vernon Wells is hitting like Vernon Wells again........


I actually think the weaker player was a pitcher, but I can't find the game right now either.
 
2013-05-05 05:00:36 PM

DeWayne Mann: Rex_Banner: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Here's a fun question. When does a shortstop cease being a shortstop? Suppose he spends the entire game playing in a shift, in the spot normally occupied by the second baseman, and the named second baseman plays short right field. Is he now the 2nd second baseman? What if he and the right fielder switch places? Is it required to reassign position designators, or can you continue to call him the shortstop? It seems to me, that the only true assigned positions should be pitcher and catcher.

There was a game where the RF and LF switched placed repeatedly based on the handedness of the hitter (putting the outfielder who knew what he was doing on the pull side). The box score for each of these guys reads "[Name], RF-LF-RF-LF-RF-LF-RF".

/I have no idea when it happened or who was involved
//Vernon Wells is hitting like Vernon Wells again........

I actually think the weaker player was a pitcher, but I can't find the game right now either.


Yep, once I remembered that fact (and once I got off my phone, which was making it harder to search for stuff), that made it real easy to find:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN198805140.shtml

DeLeon was a pitcher. There's a description of the game and the circumstances in comment #21 of this post: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11132
 
2013-05-05 05:30:18 PM

DeWayne Mann: DeLeon was a pitcher. There's a description of the game and the circumstances in comment #21 of this post: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11132


Thanks DeWayne Mann and Rex_Banner for that. Y'all might win me a bar-bet or two. Or at least, keep me from losing one. :)
 
2013-05-05 05:43:50 PM
It's not just that guys who get shifted only pull the ball.

Ryan Howard hits the ball well the other way.  He just tends to hit the ball in the air the other way.  If it's on the ground, it's usually to the right side, so shift.
 
2013-05-05 05:44:56 PM

bubbaprog: Adolf Oliver Nipples: he has the highest career batting average

See, right there is when everybody stopped listening to you. Call me when you use a metric that actually reflects performance.


We're talking about Ted Williams.  Who cares about which stat/metric you use?  He's good at ALL of them.  Pointing out that he has the highest average of the past like 70 years is significant.

Pointing out that he has the highest OBP ever is significant.  Or you can get fancier.  Whatever.
 
2013-05-05 06:26:55 PM

DeWayne Mann: If all you care about is "how often does an at-bat" result in a hit, then batting average is the best tool for that. But for just about anything else, there are better stats available.


But that is all I care about. And that's why I consider the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim the 2012 World Champions. :)
 
2013-05-05 06:33:06 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: If all you care about is "how often does an at-bat" result in a hit, then batting average is the best tool for that. But for just about anything else, there are better stats available.

But that is all I care about. And that's why I consider the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim the 2012 World Champions. :)


I....don't think that's how it works.
 
2013-05-05 08:36:47 PM
Anyone left? I have a fielding stats question. Running a stat sheet for myself in hitting this year. Made it myself in excel using every variable, metric, and stat I've ever heard of. One thing I'm not sure of is if I as the second baseman overplay a looper that I could've had and the only reason I attempted it was because the first baseman is too slow and the ball went over his head. So I didn't touch it but I knew I should've had it based on me over playing it. Does it go as an error? Not my area for the ball or this knowledge.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.
 
2013-05-05 09:38:55 PM

thecpt: Anyone left? I have a fielding stats question. Running a stat sheet for myself in hitting this year. Made it myself in excel using every variable, metric, and stat I've ever heard of. One thing I'm not sure of is if I as the second baseman overplay a looper that I could've had and the only reason I attempted it was because the first baseman is too slow and the ball went over his head. So I didn't touch it but I knew I should've had it based on me over playing it. Does it go as an error? Not my area for the ball or this knowledge.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.


Did you have a chance of catching it for the out, or had it already bounced? And if it bounced, did you have a play at first? By your descripton, I envision you running sideways, instead of away from the plate. Did you have to dive? If it was still in the air, did you get a glove on it? Long run for it? By what you have described, I'd give the batter a hit, because you made extraordinary effort to make a play that normally wouldn't be your responsibility, except for the slow first baseman. YMMV.
 
2013-05-05 09:43:47 PM

thecpt: Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.


ISO? Intentional Strike Outs? Insects Stepped On? I'm dyin' to know... :)
 
2013-05-05 10:03:19 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

ISO? Intentional Strike Outs? Insects Stepped On? I'm dyin' to know... :)


I read that one in the link dwm gave earlier. I don't know what it stands for, but it's ops minus ba. I can see the value of knowing what percentage of your hitting is power hitting.
 
2013-05-05 10:07:08 PM

thecpt: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

ISO? Intentional Strike Outs? Insects Stepped On? I'm dyin' to know... :)

I read that one in the link dwm gave earlier. I don't know what it stands for, but it's ops minus ba. I can see the value of knowing what percentage of your hitting is power hitting.


Makes sense. Dwayne Mann will know. Start a smoky fire, and I'll get a blanket.
 
2013-05-05 10:11:49 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyone left? I have a fielding stats question. Running a stat sheet for myself in hitting this year. Made it myself in excel using every variable, metric, and stat I've ever heard of. One thing I'm not sure of is if I as the second baseman overplay a looper that I could've had and the only reason I attempted it was because the first baseman is too slow and the ball went over his head. So I didn't touch it but I knew I should've had it based on me over playing it. Does it go as an error? Not my area for the ball or this knowledge.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

Did you have a chance of catching it for the out, or had it already bounced? And if it bounced, did you have a play at first? By your descripton, I envision you running sideways, instead of away from the plate. Did you have to dive? If it was still in the air, did you get a glove on it? Long run for it? By what you have described, I'd give the batter a hit, because you made extraordinary effort to make a play that normally wouldn't be your responsibility, except for the slow first baseman. YMMV.


I was playing deep at second and I ran towards the line and a little back. Problem was I either ran past it or ran to where it was going to land and it tailed towards second and dropped. This makes me think I should have caught it, but it is an area between rf and first. It landed, I recovered and kept the runner at third and the batter didn't advance past first.

If I saw it on tv, I would honestly just see how it was scored and wouldn't argue.
 
2013-05-05 10:17:09 PM

thecpt: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

ISO? Intentional Strike Outs? Insects Stepped On? I'm dyin' to know... :)

I read that one in the link dwm gave earlier. I don't know what it stands for, but it's ops minus ba. I can see the value of knowing what percentage of your hitting is power hitting.


Isolated power.

Mine's the worst, in softball.  Woo singles!
 
2013-05-05 10:17:43 PM

thecpt: Anyone left? I have a fielding stats question. Running a stat sheet for myself in hitting this year. Made it myself in excel using every variable, metric, and stat I've ever heard of. One thing I'm not sure of is if I as the second baseman overplay a looper that I could've had and the only reason I attempted it was because the first baseman is too slow and the ball went over his head. So I didn't touch it but I knew I should've had it based on me over playing it. Does it go as an error? Not my area for the ball or this knowledge.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.


Seriously, for future reference, feel free to either reply to one of my other posts, or even just put my name in bold. Either way triggers the email notification and brings me by a lot quicker.

Anyway, let me get on my laptop so I can answer more fully.
 
2013-05-05 10:32:01 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Makes sense. Dwayne Mann will know. Start a smoky fire, and I'll get a blanket.


Ok, now that I see this, spelling my name right does help. ANYWAY

thecpt: Anyone left? I have a fielding stats question. Running a stat sheet for myself in hitting this year. Made it myself in excel using every variable, metric, and stat I've ever heard of. One thing I'm not sure of is if I as the second baseman overplay a looper that I could've had and the only reason I attempted it was because the first baseman is too slow and the ball went over his head. So I didn't touch it but I knew I should've had it based on me over playing it. Does it go as an error? Not my area for the ball or this knowledge.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.


Let me start out by saying that I only know the MLB rulebook, and I suspect this is an area that will often differ in other sources. That being said, in MLB, the definition of an error HEAVILY depends .on the definition of ordinary effort. So let's start with that:

Rule 2.00:

ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.


There's also a comment, which is (IMO) the most important part:

This standard...is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.

From there, we can move to the definition of error, which is laid out in rule 10.12. However, I want to specifically focus on a comment to that rule:

It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer's judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error.

So, all together, the question is this: would an average fielder making the amount of effort one would expect an average fielder to make (that is, not lollygagging, but also probably not running full out and diving) have make the catch? If so, then BY THE RULEBOOK, it's an error.

Note, however, that MLB official scorers do not actually rule by the book, and so it would almost certainly be a hit in the majors, because in general anything that lands untouched in the majors is ruled a hit.
 
2013-05-05 10:32:22 PM

Dafatone: Isolated power.

Mine's the worst, in softball. Woo singles!


cdn.tuvez.com

Wants to know: "What's wrong with singles?"
 
2013-05-05 10:33:32 PM

DeWayne Mann: Ok, now that I see this, spelling my name right does help. ANYWAY


Heh, my brother spells HIS name, Duane. I always wanna spell yours that way. My bad.
 
2013-05-05 10:38:14 PM

thecpt: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyone left? I have a fielding stats question. Running a stat sheet for myself in hitting this year. Made it myself in excel using every variable, metric, and stat I've ever heard of. One thing I'm not sure of is if I as the second baseman overplay a looper that I could've had and the only reason I attempted it was because the first baseman is too slow and the ball went over his head. So I didn't touch it but I knew I should've had it based on me over playing it. Does it go as an error? Not my area for the ball or this knowledge.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

Did you have a chance of catching it for the out, or had it already bounced? And if it bounced, did you have a play at first? By your descripton, I envision you running sideways, instead of away from the plate. Did you have to dive? If it was still in the air, did you get a glove on it? Long run for it? By what you have described, I'd give the batter a hit, because you made extraordinary effort to make a play that normally wouldn't be your responsibility, except for the slow first baseman. YMMV.

I was playing deep at second and I ran towards the line and a little back. Problem was I either ran past it or ran to where it was going to land and it tailed towards second and dropped. This makes me think I should have caught it, but it is an area between rf and first. It landed, I recovered and kept the runner at third and the batter didn't advance past first.

If I saw it on tv, I would honestly just see how it was scored and wouldn't argue.


That does not sound like an error to me
 
2013-05-05 10:40:55 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: DeWayne Mann: Ok, now that I see this, spelling my name right does help. ANYWAY

Heh, my brother spells HIS name, Duane. I always wanna spell yours that way. My bad.


Well, its not even my real name, so I'll live.
 
2013-05-05 10:44:13 PM

Dafatone: thecpt: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

ISO? Intentional Strike Outs? Insects Stepped On? I'm dyin' to know... :)

I read that one in the link dwm gave earlier. I don't know what it stands for, but it's ops minus ba. I can see the value of knowing what percentage of your hitting is power hitting.

Isolated power.

Mine's the worst, in softball.  Woo singles!


You sound like a gritty gamer who plays the game the right way. Good for you.
 
2013-05-05 10:52:41 PM

Dafatone: thecpt: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

ISO? Intentional Strike Outs? Insects Stepped On? I'm dyin' to know... :)

I read that one in the link dwm gave earlier. I don't know what it stands for, but it's ops minus ba. I can see the value of knowing what percentage of your hitting is power hitting.

Isolated power.

Mine's the worst, in softball.  Woo singles!


Yeah, only one game so far but currently 2 for 3 with 2 singles. It makes all the stats look boring damnit. Couldn't even work a walk for fun. Watched the first pitch which I thought was ugly and it was a dead center strike.

Also thanks DeWayne Mann. I hate ambiguity but under those rules (and since I'm keeping my own score) I feel comfortable saying it was an error.
 
2013-05-05 11:29:50 PM

thecpt: Yeah, only one game so far but currently 2 for 3 with 2 singles.


See!?! I told ya so! You're hitting .667, and you don't like Batting Average?

I wish I could still play. I was at the park a couple of hours ago, pitching to my 12-year-old nephew, and after about 30 pitches I was done. However, I was pleased to see that I could still throw strikes although I doubt I could dent drywall. I almost did the

media.heraldonline.com

on one he hit through the box. So of course, I stuck one in his ribs. Can't let 'em get cocky out there.
 
2013-05-06 12:07:45 AM

Rex_Banner: Dafatone: thecpt: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: thecpt: Anyways, I'm really enjoying doing the sheet if not for actually knowing what goes into these stats, and now I have to add ISO.

ISO? Intentional Strike Outs? Insects Stepped On? I'm dyin' to know... :)

I read that one in the link dwm gave earlier. I don't know what it stands for, but it's ops minus ba. I can see the value of knowing what percentage of your hitting is power hitting.

Isolated power.

Mine's the worst, in softball.  Woo singles!

You sound like a gritty gamer who plays the game the right way. Good for you.


I bust my ass down the line.  I'm tons of slow.  I field alright, but wind up diving or falling on every play.

My grit's off the charts.
 
2013-05-06 12:46:47 AM

Dafatone: I bust my ass down the line. I'm tons of slow. I field alright, but wind up diving or falling on every play.

My grit's off the charts.


Nothin' better than a dirty uniform at the end of the game.
 
2013-05-06 04:45:04 AM
you know, you coonts should be arguing like this during world series threads.  They've been getting in the pathetically low  100 comment range.
 
2013-05-06 09:46:46 AM

Chupacabra Sandwich: Adolf Oliver Nipples: What I'm saying is that you guys can make up stuff, cover it with all kinds of weird metrics that only you understand, and declare victory in whatever argument you're trying to make. For my part, I'll stick to batting averages and traditional metrics. It's remarkable how that's held baseball in good stead for more than a century.

I hate the old boys club of baseball. Yes, there are a lot of weird metrics I don't understand. But it's not rocket science to figure out that shiat like batting average is a worthless stat. "Its the way we've always done it" has been a terrible excuse used for everything for all time. Move forward, for god's sake.


Oh, come on, batting average is in no way a "worthless stat".  It's not like wins or something.  There may be better ones out there but there's still a lot of meaning to batting average.
 
2013-05-06 12:17:13 PM

meanmutton: There may be better ones out there but there's still a lot of meaning to batting average.


Not as much as most people think.

Again, if you want to know how often an at bat (not a plate appearance) ends in a hit, then batting average is for you. But that's about all it does.
 
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