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(Washington Post)   Israel strikes Syrian targets. This is not a repeat from yesterday   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 72
    More: Followup, Syrians, Damascus, Reuters News, sectarian violence, Sunni Muslims, Syrian War  
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6940 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 May 2013 at 10:28 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-05-05 12:23:20 AM  
4 votes:
FatherofWallaby:
Um, that's not how military aid works. The US doesn't *give* Israel anything. The way it works is we transfer money there, then Israel *buys* military hardware from American companies. If we stopped giving them military aid, that's $3 billion worth of stuff that American companies wouldn't be able to sell-leading to a loss of a lot of good paying jobs. It's corporate welfare that actually wroks for all concerned. Plus, we get the results of real-world testing.

It's the worst kind of corporate welfare because in the end, apart from spreading more misery in the middle east it does nothing to benefit Americans at large. A few thousand people might have jobs but when it's all said and done the only Americans who truly see any benefit from this are the owners of the weapons manufacturers.

A better use of those funds would be to repair America's infrastructure. Put the money to work fixing roads, bridges, building public works, schools, hospitals, airports, parks and recreation, high speed rail, public transportation etc. The same money the government currently sticks into military spending would employ many, many times that number creating works that truly benefit all of the citizenry instead of a rich few.

For a country that claims to worship capitalism above all else it is actually anything but capitalistic in foreign policy. "Buy/sell us shiat or we'll bomb you to the stone age" is not how the "free market" is supposed to work. If they actually did practice capitalism as a foreign policy instead of using the public coffers and military as mercenaries for the business interests of private corporations then there wouldn't be a shiat load of people in the world pissed off at them and they'd truly have a standard of living the envy of the world. They could transform the entire country into a 21st century marvel. Instead there are still large parts of the nation where the standard of living is barely above that of the turn of the last century.

The "but it's good corporate welfare" is the worst excuse for the bloated military spending of the United States.
2013-05-04 11:36:27 PM  
3 votes:
Tommy Moo:  If the U.S. stopped giving them $3 billion worth of military equipment every year, they would be sitting ducks.

Oh for crying out loud, will you give it up? The US gives the same military aid each year to Egypt as we do to Israel. Not to mention that Saudi Arabia buys 3 times as much each year as the other two combined. Maintaining military parity in the region has prevented large scale warfare for 40 years and counting now...or did you forget that?
2013-05-04 11:07:56 PM  
3 votes:
Israel is simply preempting some movement of weapons into Lebanon by destroying them before they can be distributed.  By hitting them in an ammo dump, they are minimizing civilian casualties by confining the explosion to military personel and combatants.  Otherwise, they have to attack the targets on the road where innocent civilians could be put at risk.  Better to do one big attack and remove the materials all at once than stage lots of little attacks as they move through the countryside and put civilians at risk.
2013-05-04 10:38:03 PM  
3 votes:
So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)
2013-05-04 10:36:50 PM  
3 votes:
I really wouldn't give a shiat what Israel did - nor would the rest of the civilized world - if the U.S. would just stay the fark out of it.
2013-05-04 09:22:39 PM  
3 votes:
2013-05-05 01:24:09 AM  
2 votes:

Tatsuma: Ghastly: It's the worst kind of corporate welfare because in the end, apart from spreading more misery in the middle east it does nothing to benefit Americans at large. A few thousand people might have jobs but when it's all said and done the only Americans who truly see any benefit from this are the owners of the weapons manufacturers.

Yeah this is not true.


WHAT ISRAEL DOES FOR THE UNITED STATES and much more

Throughout the six decades since the re-establishment of Israel, an often repeated claim in made that "Israel is a draining liability on the United States." This claim is bogus and an examination of the facts hopefully will consign this charge to the trash-heap where it belongs.

Further adding to the problem are statements made by and the conduct of Israel's leftist leaders since 1993 create the false impression that Israeli-American ties constitute a one-way relationship. The impression is given that the U.S. gives and Israel merely receives and thus must constantly bow to "American pressure" as personified by the U.S. State Department.

The truth is that the relationship is a two-way partnership. For example:

• In 1952, as the Cold War got underway, U.S. Army Chief-of-Staff Omar Bradley called for the integration of Israel into the Mediterranean Basin area, in light of the country's location and unique capabilities.

• In 1967, Israel defeated a radical Arab, pro-Soviet offensive, which threatened to bring about the collapse of pro-American Arab regimes and disrupt oil supply, thus severely undermining the American standard of living. The U.S. gained valuable military information from analysis of captured Soviet equipment, including SAM-2, SAM-12, Mig-21 aircraft, and Soviet T-54 battle tanks. In fact, Israel gave an entire squadron of MiG-21s to the U.S. which was dubbed the "Top Gun" squadron and used by the U.S. Air and Naval forces for training purposes. Since 1967, Israel transferred captured Soviet weapons systems to the U.S. Pentagon after ever ...


That's a load of bullshiat right there.

Those 50,000 "jobs" you're talking about aren't even close to making up for the millions of manufacturing jobs Israel has propped up and stolen from us with said monetary and military aid. I use cutters every day that used to be made here in the US but are now made in Israel.

They don't deserve our aid, they don't deserve out military backing. They started out as terrorists and over the past 60 years have done little to improve their reputation. And if you even try to pull the Anti Semite card I will shove the menorah sitting atop my refrigerator right up your ass.
2013-05-05 12:52:20 AM  
2 votes:
Tatsuma:
Yeah this is not true.

The US would have no need for any of that intelligence if its foreign policy was to mind its own business militarily speaking. Despite what the Fox News crowd chants nobody "hates them for their freedom". They hate them for interfering with sovereign nations on behalf of the business interests of a few obscenely rich people.

If the US actually practiced what it preached there'd be very few people pissed with them and Wahabism wouldn't have taken hold in the Muslim world to begin with.
2013-05-04 11:18:59 PM  
2 votes:
You know, there is a very simple solution to all the strife in the middle east.

EVERYONE ELSE STAY THE FARK OUT OF IT

If crazies want to fight, then let them fight. Don't shower them with money and weapons. Don't stick a huge greedy nose where it doesn't belong. Let the bloodthirsty slaughter each other if that's what they want to do. If we're really lucky, they will all annihilate each other and someone with some sense can move in and make something of the region.
2013-05-04 11:13:01 PM  
2 votes:

mayIFark: TuteTibiImperes: mayIFark: BravadoGT: mayIFark: BravadoGT: mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)

that wasn't a "random target." It wasn't a school or a pizzeria; it was a missile factory.  Meant to be fired at them.  There is a big difference.

So, according to you, if Hamas fires on a Israeli arms depot, that is fine?

it'd be better.  But they never do that.  They want lots of civilian blood.  Dead babies.  That's their focus for choosing targets.

Yet, more civilians are killed each year (100x or so) by Isrealis than by Hamas. Funny how that works.

And Israel never hit Hospital before, or was there arms too (well, some amputees do have arms left, or just one arm left).

Israel is a sovereign nation with trained soldiers, Hamas is a terrorist organization.  Israel doesn't station military facilities right next to, or inside of, schools and hospitals, Hamas does.  Without an internationally recognized military force Hamas terrorists are by default civilians.

Same action, as you just said yourself, yet different label. That was my original question.


That isn't what I said at all.  Hamas launches attacks from hospitals and schools, making those areas targets.

Israel is a real nation, Palestine is not.  Israel is happy to grant citizenship to Muslims and Arabs - the Palestinians are free to simply become Israeli.  They can still practice their religion in peace, and they would be able to vote and contribute in the political system just as the Jewish citizens of Israel do.  Instead they choose to continue living on Israeli land and engage in terroristic violence.
2013-05-04 11:10:23 PM  
2 votes:

Tatsuma: Somacandra: All the macho military assholes on all sides there love dead civilian babies. They spray their jockey shorts on it. When it happens to themselves they feel "justified" and when it happens to the other side its "richly deserved."

This is bullshiat, you don't ever see Israelis dancing in the street and distributing sweets where there are news that children have been killed.

That's a farking disgusting assertion.


Hmm, I seem to recall a certain Israeli farker responding to the deaths of a planeload of civilians with this image...


www.gambooge.net
2013-05-04 11:03:00 PM  
2 votes:

Tommy Moo: You're on your own, Israel. Don't you dare expect that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for you.


I think you've got that backwards, sport. Israel is doing this on our behalf.
2013-05-04 11:00:32 PM  
2 votes:

mayIFark: BravadoGT: mayIFark: BravadoGT: mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)

that wasn't a "random target." It wasn't a school or a pizzeria; it was a missile factory.  Meant to be fired at them.  There is a big difference.

So, according to you, if Hamas fires on a Israeli arms depot, that is fine?

it'd be better.  But they never do that.  They want lots of civilian blood.  Dead babies.  That's their focus for choosing targets.

Yet, more civilians are killed each year (100x or so) by Isrealis than by Hamas. Funny how that works.

And Israel never hit Hospital before, or was there arms too (well, some amputees do have arms left, or just one arm left).


Israel is a sovereign nation with trained soldiers, Hamas is a terrorist organization.  Israel doesn't station military facilities right next to, or inside of, schools and hospitals, Hamas does.  Without an internationally recognized military force Hamas terrorists are by default civilians.
2013-05-04 10:58:56 PM  
2 votes:

ravenlore: Aw fark. Y'all don't even want to see Twitter right now.


One dog sees a squirrel and suddenly the whole neighborhood's barking.
2013-05-04 10:55:45 PM  
2 votes:

Parmenius: They're probably safer touring Israel than they are touring NYC. Israel is not "the sandbox".


Yeah exactly, the criminality in Israel is extremely low, and we have developed such an army and anti-terrorism measures that at the end of the day, walking the streets of New York is a lot more dangerous than visiting Israel and walking in Jerusalem at 3 in the morning.
2013-05-04 10:52:44 PM  
2 votes:
Say what you will, at least the Israelis are doing something.
While I would rather have peace, trying to head off attacks instead of waiting for something to happen, seems to me to be better than hand wringing, harsh letters from the U.N. or doing nothing at all.
I don't really agree with Israel's policies or, for that matter, the U.S.'s policies Re: Israel, but I can't fault Israel for protecting their borders/citizens.
2013-05-04 10:50:52 PM  
2 votes:

mayIFark: BravadoGT: mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)

that wasn't a "random target." It wasn't a school or a pizzeria; it was a missile factory.  Meant to be fired at them.  There is a big difference.

So, according to you, if Hamas fires on a Israeli arms depot, that is fine?


it'd be better.  But they never do that.  They want lots of civilian blood.  Dead babies.  That's their focus for choosing targets.
2013-05-04 10:46:51 PM  
2 votes:

mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)


that wasn't a "random target." It wasn't a school or a pizzeria; it was a missile factory.  Meant to be fired at them.  There is a big difference.
2013-05-04 10:42:01 PM  
2 votes:
Yeah Israel should totally let their enemies surrounding them completely annihilate them, as is their stated goal.
2013-05-04 10:41:30 PM  
2 votes:

utah dude: i know i'm supposed to support israel as a mormon chrisitian whatever and what not but seriously i wish israel would just put the guns down and move to some remote part of canada.


Isn't Utah supposed to be famous as a place religious folks go to settle? Why not welcome them there?
2013-05-04 10:39:45 PM  
2 votes:

mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)


The difference between terrorism and defensive military operations is organization.
2013-05-04 10:38:57 PM  
2 votes:
There is no good outcome from this. Either a despot remains in power and will be undoubtedly more cruel than before or the most ruthless Islamic extremists group takes control. I would not want to live in a bordering country.
2013-05-04 10:38:39 PM  
2 votes:

nmemkha: Justified or not, I bet the Muslim countries that surround it are super happy fine with Israel's new aggression.

Talk about your playing with matches in a sea of gasoline ...


Actually yeah, most of them are thrilled. You have to realize that while a lot of them might just give a lot of shiat to Israel publicly, if you read stuff like WikiLeaks and all the diplomatic cables released, most Arab governments are more than happy in regards to what Israel does to Hizbullah, Iran, Hamas, etc...
2013-05-04 10:36:49 PM  
2 votes:
i know i'm supposed to support israel as a mormon chrisitian whatever and what not but seriously i wish israel would just put the guns down and move to some remote part of canada.
2013-05-05 01:31:35 PM  
1 votes:
Ok Israel!  I am warning you!   This shiat had better not effect my hummus supply!  So, in conclusion; Would you like to buy more bombs?

/we have plenty...
2013-05-05 09:48:59 AM  
1 votes:
So now we have hit that inevitable part of the thread where it stops being about the issue and becomes about Tatsuma. Time to bail.
2013-05-05 08:48:03 AM  
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: The internet sure do love to hate on Israel.


Seems to me the internet hates everybody, all the time...
2013-05-05 03:51:12 AM  
1 votes:

Fish_Fight!: Flissss: Pardon, Israel DID threaten to hit Soviet interests in 1973 with the explicit motivation get them involved if Nixon did not supply Israel. That really happened.

And of course you will provide citations, yes? We';ll wait.


Google is your friend but whatever. 
"We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under."(Martin Van Creveld, Professor of Military History at Israel's Hebrew University, September 2003)

And they were quite willing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/06/opinion/the-last-nuclear-moment.ht ml 
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm  
Hersh, Seymour (1991),  The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy, Random House. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option 


Also during the 1973 war, according to Time Magazine, Israel spotted an American SR-71 Blackbird and was ordered to shoot it down:

".... the planewas spotted by Israeli air defenses and two Phantom jets scrambled to 
intercept it. "I have it on my radar," the Israeli pilot radioed. "It is an 
[SR-71] American Blackbird." Back to him came a direct order from 
a high-ranking Israeli Air Force commander: "Down it." The SR-71, 
flying effortlessly at 85,000 feet, easily outclimbed and outdistanced 
the Israelis and returned to its base with significant readings."

---"Violent Week: The Politics of Death," Time, April 12, 1976. 


Have a nice day.
2013-05-05 01:58:59 AM  
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: Infernalist: 

The attack on the Liberty was 'called' accidental, but the evidence for it being a deliberate attack is considerable.  Look it up.

Israel attacked the Liberty with both air craft and naval vessels in a coordinated attack that lasted for a good long while.

So, yeah.  Nice guys, those Israelis.  Real solid dependable allies.

Conspiracy theorists believe all sorts of things.  Whack job theories aside, there is no motive for Israel to have purposefully fired on a US ship.  Being surrounded by hostile forces the last thing any sane nation would do would be to attack their closest ally.


The crew of the Liberty are/were conspiracy theorist whackjobs?

fark you, dude.
2013-05-05 01:44:27 AM  
1 votes:

Tatsuma: This is bullshiat, you don't ever see Israelis dancing in the street and distributing sweets where there are news that children have been killed.


No, but we see them on Fark telling us that dead Arab children are merely "collateral damage" because, well, they're not quite human, are they, and certainly not God's Chosen Humans.
2013-05-05 01:41:20 AM  
1 votes:
Pardon, Israel DID threaten to hit Soviet interests in 1973 with the explicit motivation get them involved if Nixon did not supply Israel. That really happened.
2013-05-05 01:35:36 AM  
1 votes:

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Flissss: ...blackmail the United States in 1973 with worldwide nuclear war which resulted in the Oil embargo and helped foster a recession that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands...

Are you nuts? Israel was responsible for the Yom Kippur War? Israel threatened someone, anyone, with nukes? Israel is a member of OPEC (and OAPEC)? In what alternate parallel universe do you live?


I didn't say any of those things. Sober up or take a reading comprehension class.
xcv
2013-05-05 01:24:52 AM  
1 votes:
Apparently Israel has read a Prof. Vonnegut's "Report_on_the_Barnhouse_Effect"

Let the Assadians and Islamists kill each other with sticks and stones.
2013-05-05 01:07:08 AM  
1 votes:
Muslims have been killing in the name of religion for two thousand years, but let's keep pretending it's because of America's support for Israel over the past fifty.
2013-05-05 01:04:55 AM  
1 votes:

Ghastly: If the US actually practiced what it preached there'd be very few people pissed with them and Wahabism wouldn't have taken hold in the Muslim world to begin with.


Sighing so hard right here. The rise of Wahhabism had nothing to do with America. Time to go to bed.
2013-05-05 01:03:05 AM  
1 votes:

Ghastly: The US would have no need for any of that intelligence if its foreign policy was to mind its own business militarily speaking. Despite what the Fox News crowd chants nobody "hates them for their freedom". They hate them for interfering with sovereign nations on behalf of the business interests of a few obscenely rich people.

If the US actually practiced what it preached there'd be very few people pissed with them and Wahabism wouldn't have taken hold in the Muslim world to begin with.


That ship has sailed. The US couldn't be isolationist even if it wanted to (which, incidentally, would be a global economic disaster). When the US doesn't "interfere" it is seen as biased because we "interfere" everywhere else. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
2013-05-05 12:34:12 AM  
1 votes:

Begoggle: UNC_Samurai: They apparently hit an ammo dump.  The missile warheads all went up at once.

I wonder what was REALLY stored at that "fertilizer plant" in Texas.


West, Texas was as much as 270 tons of ammonium nitrate.  Go take a look at the 1947 Texas City Disaster - there was a fire, people came out to rubberneck, and the fire spread to a ship carrying 2,300 tons of ammonium nitrate, and that caught another ship with ANOTHER 961 tons.

581 deaths, including all but one of the Texas City Fire Department.  500 homes were destroyed.  $1.3 billion in inflation-adjusted damages.  It's considered the sixth-largest conventional explosion in the history of man - behind the Soviet lunar rocket explosion, the two White Sands Range bomb tests, the British test-bombing of Heligoland, and the Halifax ammunition ship explosion.
2013-05-05 12:26:08 AM  
1 votes:

Ghastly: It's the worst kind of corporate welfare because in the end, apart from spreading more misery in the middle east it does nothing to benefit Americans at large. A few thousand people might have jobs but when it's all said and done the only Americans who truly see any benefit from this are the owners of the weapons manufacturers.


Yeah this is not true.


WHAT ISRAEL DOES FOR THE UNITED STATES and much more

Throughout the six decades since the re-establishment of Israel, an often repeated claim in made that "Israel is a draining liability on the United States." This claim is bogus and an examination of the facts hopefully will consign this charge to the trash-heap where it belongs.

Further adding to the problem are statements made by and the conduct of Israel's leftist leaders since 1993 create the false impression that Israeli-American ties constitute a one-way relationship. The impression is given that the U.S. gives and Israel merely receives and thus must constantly bow to "American pressure" as personified by the U.S. State Department.

The truth is that the relationship is a two-way partnership. For example:

• In 1952, as the Cold War got underway, U.S. Army Chief-of-Staff Omar Bradley called for the integration of Israel into the Mediterranean Basin area, in light of the country's location and unique capabilities.

• In 1967, Israel defeated a radical Arab, pro-Soviet offensive, which threatened to bring about the collapse of pro-American Arab regimes and disrupt oil supply, thus severely undermining the American standard of living. The U.S. gained valuable military information from analysis of captured Soviet equipment, including SAM-2, SAM-12, Mig-21 aircraft, and Soviet T-54 battle tanks. In fact, Israel gave an entire squadron of MiG-21s to the U.S. which was dubbed the "Top Gun" squadron and used by the U.S. Air and Naval forces for training purposes. Since 1967, Israel transferred captured Soviet weapons systems to the U.S. Pentagon after every conflict: 1967, 1967-70, 1973, 1982, 1990 (Scud remnants from the Gulf War), and 2006 (remnants of Iranian supplied missiles.

In the 1967-1970 1000 Day War of Attrition, the IDF, armed with American aircraft successfully defeated a Soviet-supplied air defense system, pointing out the deficiencies in Soviet air-defense doctrine to US defense planners. Israel shared captured military equipment include P-2 radar and Soviet tanks with the U.S. military.

• In 1970, Israel brought about the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Jordan, at a time when the U.S. was tied up by wars in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, thus preventing the fall of the pro-American Hashemite regime and the installation of a pro-Soviet radical Palestinian terrorist regime.

• In 1973 - thanks to U.S. re-supply, but without U.S. forces, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian forces. Israel again shared captured Soviet equipment, including T-62 battle tanks with the U.S. Israel emerged as the only reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned, where the U.S. has friendly port facilities (in Haifa and Ashdod) in the entire Middle East region. This too has saved the U.S. billions of dollars.

• 1970s - Joseph Sisco, a former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, assistant to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger during the latter's shuttle diplomacy, told the Israeli author and military expert, Shmuel Katz: "I want to assure you, Mr. Katz, that if we were not getting full value for our money, you would not get a cent from us."

• In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, delaying Saddam Hussein's quest for nuclear weapons. It thus provided the U.S. with the option of engaging in conventional wars with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

• The vice president General Dynamics which produces the F16 fighter jets has stated that Israel is responsible for 600 improvements in the plane's systems, modifications estimated to be worth billions of dollars, which spared dozens of research and development years.

• In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft batteries in Lebanon that were considered immune to American weapons. Israel promptly shared the operation's lessons, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

• Former Secretary of State and NATO forces commander Alexander Haig has stated that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security.

• During the first Gulf War 1991, Israel provided invaluable intelligence, an umbrella of air cover for military cargo, and had personnel planted in the Iraqi desert to pick up downed American pilots.


General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence has publicly declared that "Israel is worth five CIA's." He further stated that between 1974 and 1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants. During the same period Israel provided the U.S. with $50-80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the U.S.

• In 2005, Israel provided America with the world's most extensive experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs. American soldiers train in IDF facilities and Israeli-made drones fly above the "Sunni Triangle" in Iraq, as well as in Afghanistan, providing U.S. Marines with vital intelligence.

• In September 2007, the IAF destroyed a Syrian-North Korean nuclear plant, extending the US's strategic arm. It provided the US with vital information on Russian air defense systems, which are also employed by Iran. It bolstered the US posture of deterrence and refuted the claim that US-Israel relations have been shaped by political expediency.

• In 2009, Israel shares with the US its battle-tested experience in combating Palestinian and Hizbullah terrorism, which are the role model of anti-US Islamic terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan. US GIs benefit from Israel's battle tactics against car bombs, improvised explosive devices and homicide bombing. An Israel-like ally in the Persian Gulf would have spared the need to dispatch US troops to Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

• Israel has relayed to the U.S. lessons of battle (during the Cold War - Soviet military doctrine) and counter-terrorism (including aircraft security, homicide-suicide bombings) which reduce American losses in Iraq and Afghanistan, prevent attacks on U.S. soil, upgrade American weapons, and contribute to the U.S. economy. Without Israel, the U.S. would have been forced to deploy tens of thousands of American troops in the eastern Mediterranean Basin, at a cost of billions of dollars a year.

• Senator Daniel Inouye has recently (2005) argued Israeli information regarding Soviet arms saved the U.S. billions of dollars. The contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America is greater than that provided by all NATO countries combined, he said.

• Israel's utilization of American arms guarantees its existence, but at the same time gives U.S. military industries, such as Boeing and General Dynamics, a competitive edge compared to European industries, while also boosting American military production, producing American jobs, and improving America's national security. Japan and South Korea, for example, preferred the "Hawkeye" spy plane and the MD-500 chopper, both purchased and upgraded by Israel, over comparable British and French aircraft.

The American industries want U.S. aid to Israel to continue. The bulk of the $1.8 billion in annual U.S. military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States. That provides jobs for some 50,000 U.S. workers. Virtually all of the $1.2 billion in annual economic aid goes for repayment of debt to the United States, incurred from military purchases dating back many years. This debt is now close to being liquidated.

• Innovative Israeli technologies have a similar effect on American civilian, including computer-related industries and agricultural industries, which view Israel as a successful research and development site.

• Members of the U.S. Congress leaders, then Vice President Dick Cheney, and then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld are aware of Israel's unique contribution to U.S. interests. But, in fact, they all wonder why the post-1993 Israel does not use its impressive contribution as leverage, in sharp contrast to the pre-1993 Israel.

• In contrast to our commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and other parts of the world, not a single American serviceperson needs to be stationed in Israel. Considering that the cost of one serviceperson per year - including backup and infrastructure - is estimated to be about $200,000 per year, and assuming a minimum contingent of 25,000 troops, the cost savings to the United States on that score alone are on the order of $5 billion a year.

So cutting aid to Israel means losing hundreds of billions of dollars worth of intelligence and help, the one actual friendly country in the Middle-East and 50,000 American jobs.

America gets $10 for every dollar it puts in. I'd say that both sides are doing ok.
2013-05-05 12:17:50 AM  
1 votes:

Ghastly: Bit'O'Gristle: UNC_Samurai: They apparently hit an ammo dump.  The missile warheads all went up at once.

/Seriously, cant they stop throwing out ackbars? It's getting a bit dated.

It's their version of saying "Jesus Christ" as an exclamation, (or for those of us from the Ottawa Valley, "Jesus Murphy" or if particularly surprised "Jesus H. Murphy").


To be fair, it's equally annoying when some redneck ruins a perfectly good explosion/natural disaster video with a multi-minute barrage of "ohjesusohjesusohjesusohjesus..."  You all know what I'm talking about.
2013-05-05 12:00:59 AM  
1 votes:

Begoggle: UNC_Samurai: They apparently hit an ammo dump.  The missile warheads all went up at once.

I wonder what was REALLY stored at that "fertilizer plant" in Texas.


Fertilizer which explodes, mostly.
2013-05-04 11:58:57 PM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: leevis: Tommy Moo: You're on your own, Israel. Don't you dare expect that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for
They are spending our money every time they drop a bomb, so I wouldn't be so quick to imagine that they are some independent military titan of the Middle East. If the U.S. stopped giving them $3 billion worth of military equipment every year, they would be sitting ducks.


Um, that's not how military aid works. The US doesn't *give* Israel anything. The way it works is we transfer money there, then Israel *buys* military hardware from American companies. If we stopped giving them military aid, that's $3 billion worth of stuff that American companies wouldn't be able to sell-leading to a loss of a lot of good paying jobs. It's corporate welfare that actually wroks for all concerned. Plus, we get the results of real-world testing.
2013-05-04 11:53:26 PM  
1 votes:

mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)


Seems much less random hitting a pile of weapons, than a produce market, no?
2013-05-04 11:38:15 PM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: They are spending our money every time they drop a bomb, so I wouldn't be so quick to imagine that they are some independent military titan of the Middle East. If the U.S. stopped giving them $3 billion worth of military equipment every year, they would be sitting ducks.


That's not the same as "expect(ing) that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for you". The US will not fight any wars for them, has never done so, and Israel hasn't asked them to. They've done quite well on their own.
2013-05-04 11:31:17 PM  
1 votes:

Tatsuma: TuteTibiImperes: That appears to be the same video as before.

Even though I'm subby, did you really expect me to RTFA or TFT? Really?


(I've seen six different videos so far, didn't know people in this thread saw this one)


UNC_Samurai posted it at the very top of the thread. That's the one to which I responded "holy farking shiat."

That said, it's probably the best video i've seen so far of the explosion, so reposting it isn't such a bad thing.
2013-05-04 11:25:15 PM  
1 votes:

Tatsuma: Another video of the strike, incredible stuff starts 18 seconds in

Holy fark.


That appears to be the same video as before.
2013-05-04 11:23:25 PM  
1 votes:
2013-05-04 11:20:22 PM  
1 votes:

My Bologna Has A Maiden Name: If crazies want to fight, then let them fight. Don't shower them with money and weapons. Don't stick a huge greedy nose where it doesn't belong. Let the bloodthirsty slaughter each other if that's what they want to do. If we're really lucky, they will all annihilate each other and someone with some sense can move in and make something of the region.


Unfortunately the crazies don't stay put after they "Win".
2013-05-04 11:09:50 PM  
1 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: But you said they've been doing it for thirty years, so ostensibly there's a cache somewhere in Palestine. Or is it just like whack a mole, missiles come in, missiles get blowed up?


Hizbullah is operating out of Lebanon. And yes, it's a lot like whack a mole, very often you'll hear about 'mysterious explosions' in Lebanon where a lot of shiat blew up in depots and factories and everyone plays coy about it.

Oh and Iran has been sending tons of weapon to Hamas through both Syria and Sudan as well, usually we just destroy those before they reach Gaza or even Egypt (from where they cross in)
2013-05-04 11:04:24 PM  
1 votes:

Tatsuma: Obama came out and said Israel was completely justified to do what it did, and had every right to keep on doing so. So the only people complaining about this are basically the far-Left fringe.


I thought you weren't supposed to troll on the Sabbath.

mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)


Say what you will about Israel escalating the situation, they don't exactly hit random targets.

mayIFark: So, according to you, if Hamas fires on a Israeli arms depot, that is fine?


Honestly, to me?  Yes, it would.  Because those are legitimate military targets.  I'd tolerate / understand Hamas/PLO/Hezbollah a LOT more if they did that.  If they restricted their attacks to military and industrial/infrastructure, it would change their attacks at least from one of terrorism to one of guerrilla / irregular war fare.
2013-05-04 11:04:22 PM  
1 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: So then why isn't Hezbollah using them instead of rockets?


Well a lot of them were destroyed by the IDF in the early hours of the conflict, because we keep track of that shiat.
2013-05-04 11:03:38 PM  
1 votes:
Obama: "if Syria uses chemical weapons, we're going to fark their shiat up"

Breaking news: Syria has used chemical weapons.

Obama: "look at that duck"
2013-05-04 11:03:18 PM  
1 votes:

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I suppose our danger threshold is very different. There's no danger for me, but for my son? Oh hell no. I cringe when he crosses the street.


I can understand, but yeah I'm just saying: Israel is safer for your son than even crossing the street. Just come and visit with him! Seriously, I'll even meet up with you, we'll drink a few beers and I'll show you around

utah dude: calm down, tat. not everyone has as big a dose of Jesus/Spirit to ride on as you do. just pray for them.


Being evangelical and all, I sure ride high
2013-05-04 11:01:49 PM  
1 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Unless you're a woman not being escorted by a family member, I guess.


Yeah, again complete bullshiat that has nothing to do with reality.
2013-05-04 11:01:40 PM  
1 votes:

Tatsuma: Oh please, I live there and there is no danger.


I suppose our danger threshold is very different. There's no danger for me, but for my son? Oh hell no. I cringe when he crosses the street.

Parmenius: They're probably safer touring Israel than they are touring NYC. Israel is not "the sandbox".


You may very well be right about that. But there's not a country going through a violent civil war on the border of New York City, nor is New York City surrounded by countries that have vowed to wipe it off the map. Additionally, NYC doesn't feel the need to lob a few missiles at Jersey City.

Perspective, guys. I am a typical overprotective parent who doesn't trust his mother-in-law, especially since she's wheelchair-bound with MS. When things start blowing up due to military actions I don't want him within 200 miles of it.
2013-05-04 11:00:35 PM  
1 votes:

Tatsuma: Parmenius: They're probably safer touring Israel than they are touring NYC. Israel is not "the sandbox".

Yeah exactly, the criminality in Israel is extremely low, and we have developed such an army and anti-terrorism measures that at the end of the day, walking the streets of New York is a lot more dangerous than visiting Israel and walking in Jerusalem at 3 in the morning.


Unless you're a woman not being escorted by a family member, I guess.
2013-05-04 10:59:41 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: BravadoGT: it'd be better.  But they never do that.  They want lots of civilian blood.  Dead babies.  That's their focus for choosing targets.

All the macho military assholes on all sides there love dead civilian babies. They spray their jockey shorts on it. When it happens to themselves they feel "justified" and when it happens to the other side its "richly deserved."


uh...yeah.  wow.  That's a big drink of crazy right there....
2013-05-04 10:59:11 PM  
1 votes:

UNC_Samurai: They apparently hit an ammo dump.  The missile warheads all went up at once.


different angle, same explosion
2013-05-04 10:58:49 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: All the macho military assholes on all sides there love dead civilian babies. They spray their jockey shorts on it. When it happens to themselves they feel "justified" and when it happens to the other side its "richly deserved."


This is bullshiat, you don't ever see Israelis dancing in the street and distributing sweets where there are news that children have been killed.

That's a farking disgusting assertion.
2013-05-04 10:55:39 PM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: You're on your own, Israel. Don't you dare expect that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for you.


Because the US has such a long history of invading Israel's neighbor's for them?
2013-05-04 10:54:49 PM  
1 votes:

BravadoGT: mayIFark: BravadoGT: mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)

that wasn't a "random target." It wasn't a school or a pizzeria; it was a missile factory.  Meant to be fired at them.  There is a big difference.

So, according to you, if Hamas fires on a Israeli arms depot, that is fine?

it'd be better.  But they never do that.  They want lots of civilian blood.  Dead babies.  That's their focus for choosing targets.


Yet, more civilians are killed each year (100x or so) by Isrealis than by Hamas. Funny how that works.

And Israel never hit Hospital before, or was there arms too (well, some amputees do have arms left, or just one arm left).
2013-05-04 10:54:13 PM  
1 votes:

Adolf Oliver Nipples: My mother-in-law naively wants to take my son to visit Israel this summer. Over my dead body. The Middle East may be engulfed in flames by this summer the way things are going right now with Syria and Iran. I didn't take all those trips to the sandbox over the last decade so that my son could be put in harm's way by his grandmother.


They're probably safer touring Israel than they are touring NYC. Israel is not "the sandbox".
2013-05-04 10:54:04 PM  
1 votes:

picturescrazy: I don't have anything to add but this has to be a pretty big deal if both Tatsuma and STRYPERSWINE are in the thread, and so early. Maybe I haven't been paying attention but those are two names I haven't seen in years.


Well there are rumblings that Assad is about to declare war on Israel. Which is just hilarious.

BravadoGT: it'd be better. But they never do that. They want lots of civilian blood. Dead babies. That's their focus for choosing targets.


If only they would target IDF installations instead of purposefully target school buses and kindergarten.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: My mother-in-law naively wants to take my son to visit Israel this summer. Over my dead body. The Middle East may be engulfed in flames by this summer the way things are going right now with Syria and Iran. I didn't take all those trips to the sandbox over the last decade so that my son could be put in harm's way by his grandmother.


Oh please, I live there and there is no danger.
2013-05-04 10:53:03 PM  
1 votes:
It's nice to see a competent nation stepping up and policing things.
2013-05-04 10:52:41 PM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: You're on your own, Israel. Don't you dare expect that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for you.


Historically they've done quite well on their own, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
2013-05-04 10:48:27 PM  
1 votes:
i1309.photobucket.com
2013-05-04 10:47:54 PM  
1 votes:

DubtodaIll: The difference between terrorism and defensive military operations is organization.


also the not-at-all-randomness of the target

those missiles would have been shot at Israelis or at the Syrian resistance, so good on 'em
2013-05-04 10:43:50 PM  
1 votes:

STRYPERSWINE: Yeah Israel should totally let their enemies surrounding them completely annihilate them, as is their stated goal.


Obama came out and said Israel was completely justified to do what it did, and had every right to keep on doing so. So the only people complaining about this are basically the far-Left fringe.
2013-05-04 10:38:18 PM  
1 votes:

nmemkha: Justified or not, I bet the Muslim countries that surround it are super happy fine with Israel's new aggression.

Talk about your playing with matches in a sea of gasoline ...


THIS. If this blows up in their face, I will feel no farking sympathy.
2013-05-04 10:36:04 PM  
1 votes:

mayIFark: Farking Sovereignty, how does it work?


Not all that well around Israel.
2013-05-04 10:35:48 PM  
1 votes:

UNC_Samurai: They apparently hit an ammo dump.  The missile warheads all went up at once.




/Seriously, cant they stop throwing out ackbars? It's getting a bit dated.
2013-05-04 10:34:37 PM  
1 votes:
Justified or not, I bet the Muslim countries that surround it are super happy fine with Israel's new aggression.

Talk about your playing with matches in a sea of gasoline ...
2013-05-04 10:21:21 PM  
1 votes:

UNC_Samurai: They apparently hit an ammo dump.  The missile warheads all went up at once.


That was pretty impressive.
 
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