If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Washington Post)   Israel strikes Syrian targets. This is not a repeat from yesterday   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 374
    More: Followup, Syrians, Damascus, Reuters News, sectarian violence, Sunni Muslims, Syrian War  
•       •       •

6925 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 May 2013 at 10:28 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



374 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-05-05 09:39:04 AM  

Tatsuma: Parmenius: I'm probably going to hell for defending Tatsuma, but... you *could* refute some of it. Vague assertions and appeals to hatred of Israel don't help your position.

No see if you say 'Everything Tats says about X is false' it magically becomes fact.


Passive-aggressing me won't help your position either. Care to back up any of your claims on the cash value of intelligence?
 
2013-05-05 09:41:38 AM  

Tatsuma: Parmenius: I'm probably going to hell for defending Tatsuma, but... you *could* refute some of it. Vague assertions and appeals to hatred of Israel don't help your position.

No see if you say 'Everything Tats says about X is false' it magically becomes fact.


You really should be ashamed of yourself.
 
2013-05-05 09:43:15 AM  

Parmenius: Passive-aggressing me won't help your position either. Care to back up any of your claims on the cash value of intelligence?


Here is General Keegan saying that Israel is worth 'five CIAs

Everything I posted is part of public record and can be easily verified.
 
2013-05-05 09:48:08 AM  

Tatsuma: Here is General Keegan saying that Israel is worth 'five CIAs


General: Israelis exaggerated Iraq threat
JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli intelligence overplayed the threat posed by Iraq and reinforced the U.S. and British assessment that Saddam Hussein had large amounts of weapons of mass destruction, a retired Israeli general said Thursday.
 
2013-05-05 09:48:59 AM  
So now we have hit that inevitable part of the thread where it stops being about the issue and becomes about Tatsuma. Time to bail.
 
2013-05-05 09:50:12 AM  
ciberido: Sadly, I don't have all day to refute all his crap, so to save myself and everyone else time, I'll just give a blanket warning: if it has to do with Judaism or Isreal, it's pretty safe to assume anything Tatsuma is a baldface lie.

Parmenius: I'm probably going to hell for defending Tatsuma, but... you *could* refute some of it. Vague assertions and appeals to hatred of Israel don't help your position.

1. I've already refuted claims Tatsuma made, in this thread an others.
2. He made the assertion; the burden is on him to support his claims, not on me to disprove every single thing he says.
3. "Appeals to hated of Isreal"?  Yeah, fark that straw-man.  I don't hate Isreal, nor have I advocated any sort of anti-Isreal policy.  The only two things I hate (that are relevant to this thread, anyway) are misogyny and dishonesty.
4. Not that you asked, but Tatsuma grinds my gears because he combines extreme dishonesty with projection (calling everything he disagrees with a lie) and defensive of misogyny (as practiced by ultra-Orthodox Jews).
 
2013-05-05 09:51:57 AM  

ciberido: Normally, I'd point out that these are bald assertions without any links or references to back them up.  But in this case perhaps we should merely be grateful that he isn't wasting more of our time by coming up with links someone would have to follow, read, and then debunk


Lets run it through google.  Knowing Tatsuma, its been all debunked, and he comes right back later with more lies
 
2013-05-05 09:52:10 AM  

people: General: Israelis exaggerated Iraq threat


Yeah one retired guy who never saw the classified material that was going around said that, while the rest of the experts said that he was wrong and exaggerating his claims.

Clearly that's a proof that the claims of Keegan about Israel in the 80s were wrong, and Mondale is now President.
 
2013-05-05 09:53:17 AM  

Ghastly: If the US actually practiced what it preached there'd be very few people pissed with them and Wahabism wouldn't have taken hold in the Muslim world to begin with.


But we WANT Wahhabism to take hold in the Muslim world.  The best way to destroy Islam is to promote its most ignorant, violent, and backward members.
 
2013-05-05 09:53:33 AM  

gilgigamesh: So now we have hit that inevitable part of the thread where it stops being about the issue and becomes about Tatsuma. Time to bail.


.... do you ever have anything of value to contribute to these threads, outside of coming in, sniping at me with a snide remark, then walking away?

people: Lets run it through google. Knowing Tatsuma, its been all debunked, and he comes right back later with more lies


Your own link debunked the point you were trying to make.
 
2013-05-05 09:55:54 AM  

Tatsuma: Yeah one retired guy


Wait?  Are you looking for more sources? Thats about the easiest thing to accomplish.

Tatsuma: about Israel in the 80s were wrong


You!  You are citing crap thats 30-50 years old!
 
2013-05-05 10:00:21 AM  

mayIFark: So, let me get this straight, Hamas shoots rockets at random targets in Israel - Terrorism (Agreed).
Israel shoots even more powerful stuff at random targets all over the middle east - Not Terrorism (What the fark?)


How the fark is a targeted strike on a munitions storage facility a "random" target?
 
2013-05-05 10:04:05 AM  

Tommy Moo: You're on your own, Israel. Don't you dare expect that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for you.


Like America has done.... umm... ever?
 
2013-05-05 10:07:01 AM  

people: Wait? Are you looking for more sources? Thats about the easiest thing to accomplish.


Let me give you an example of what you did:

Former Senator: US Government knew about 9/11 and allowed it to happen

Clearly the fact that one person said so when the rest of the country says that this person is completely wrong does not invalidate those claims but in fact should be used as a reliable gage for the truth.
 
2013-05-05 10:09:55 AM  

Ontos: Tommy Moo: You're on your own, Israel. Don't you dare expect that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for you.

Like America has done.... umm... ever?


1973 is the clearest example of US direct involvement. The US shipped over tens of thousands of tons of material in in that and engaged in some very hairy and aggressive diplomacy.
 
2013-05-05 10:14:11 AM  

Tatsuma: one person


Ugh. This is your argument.  You are taking my exhaustion over your limitless supply of propaganda as some sort of limit to sources I can provide.


Keep complaining, and Ill just end up googling it and showing where you have had this shown directly to you.



Israeli pressure against US arms sales, like the blocked f-15 sales.
The selling of US military secrets and weapons to China.
The unique circumstances where Israel alone is uniquely treated like American companies for purposes of U.S. defense procurement
Israeli military funding is almost immediately into an interest-bearing account with the Federal Reserve Bank where this money is used to pay down earlier Israeli non-guaranteed loans from the United States
The other part of this assistance package is that about 25 percent of military aid can be used to buy arms from Israeli companies - a privilege no one else has.
U.S. War Reserves Stocks for Allies that israel depleted and drew international outrage for shelling civillians with those munitions. This stockpile is measured in over a billion dollars.
Billions of dollars in "excess" equipment
We havent even got into the disasters of AIPAC pushed legislation.


Now scamper off.
 
2013-05-05 10:23:12 AM  

people: Israeli pressure against US arms sales, like the blocked f-15 sales.


And yet you don't show whether or not that pressure lead anywhere, or whether there was a loss from it.

people: The selling of US military secrets and weapons to China.


Israel never did that, those rumors were debunked.

The unique circumstances where Israel alone is uniquely treated like American companies for purposes of U.S. defense procurement.

Please provide a link that Israel is the only country to benefit of such an arrangement. Oh and when Israel does, it's because that military aid that is given to Israel is earmarked in a way that it can only be spent on American-made weapons by the way.

Israeli military funding is almost immediately into an interest-bearing account with the Federal Reserve Bank where this money is used to pay down earlier Israeli non-guaranteed loans from the United States

Israel has paid back all of its loans to the United States and does not receive any loans anymore.

The other part of this assistance package is that about 25 percent of military aid can be used to buy arms from Israeli companies - a privilege no one else has.

75% has to be bought from American companies (something you were complaining that no one else can do, now you're claiming that Israel being able to spend a quarter of it on Israeli weapons is something no one else can do). Also, provide a citation that Israel is the only country allowed to buy homemade weapons with US money.

U.S. War Reserves Stocks for Allies that israel depleted and drew international outrage for shelling civillians with those munitions. This stockpile is measured in over a billion dollars.

Again, link for proof, and how did that cost anything extra to America when that reserve exists specifically to be used?

Billions of dollars in "excess" equipment

How did that coast America in any way?

We havent even got into the disasters of AIPAC pushed legislation.


So basically I gave an example of concrete events and things that Israel did for America, and to 'debunk' them you made a list of things that has nothing to do with it and debunked exactly nothing?
 
2013-05-05 10:26:25 AM  

people: 1973 is the clearest example of US direct involvement. The US shipped over tens of thousands of tons of material in in that and engaged in some very hairy and aggressive diplomacy.


So sending weapons (that Israel had to foot the bill for) is stepping in and waging the war for Israel?

Let's not forget that the bulk of the weapons arrived in Israel after the war.Not only that, but even the material that arrived during the war arrived while Israel was deeply into Syria and Egypt and the war had already been won at that point, the question was if Israel would go as far as destroying both the Egyptian and Syrian regime.

So yeah, clearest example.
 
2013-05-05 10:26:52 AM  
Rice: Defending Israel takes much of her U.N. time
April 23, 2013

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- Susan Rice said a major part of her work as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations is defending Israel's legitimacy.
 "It's a huge part of my work to the United Nations," Rice said Sunday evening


---

Thanks!
 
2013-05-05 10:30:13 AM  

people: Ontos: Tommy Moo: You're on your own, Israel. Don't you dare expect that you can throw a few rocks to provoke a full scale invasion, and that the United States will then step in and fight your war for you.

Like America has done.... umm... ever?

1973 is the clearest example of US direct involvement. The US shipped over tens of thousands of tons of material in in that and engaged in some very hairy and aggressive diplomacy.


Diplomacy and material support is still a far cry from "fight their war for them".

Words mean things.
 
2013-05-05 10:32:55 AM  
Always a pleasure watching someone lie without shame, knowing that the more he does it, the wiser other people get to it.
 
2013-05-05 10:36:02 AM  

Tatsuma: gilgigamesh: So now we have hit that inevitable part of the thread where it stops being about the issue and becomes about Tatsuma. Time to bail.

.... do you ever have anything of value to contribute to these threads, outside of coming in, sniping at me with a snide remark, then walking away?


Your honor, I rest my case.

Seriously though, I think you are thinking of someone else. We've had discussions before about all sorts of things. You have a great taste in music.

And I often agree with you. For instance, I agree with you about what this thread was originally about: that its looking like Israel's action in Syria was a legitimate preemptive strike on a military target.

It is also true that these threads always become about you. Or more specifically, about Israel in the abstract, with you on one side and a bunch of people yelling at you on the other. That isn't entirely your fault, because there are frankly a lot of antisemitic dickbags on Fark who dump on you because you are a Jew who defends Israel. But take a look at this thread. It turned from the topic to a discussion about Israel's treatment of African immigrants, the attack on the USS Liberty 40 years ago, foreign aid to Israel, and pretty much everything but the topic. Again, not entirely your fault. But it happens a lot when you are in these Israel threads.

Just some food for thought.
 
2013-05-05 10:37:51 AM  

Are you Dougie Feith, because you might be the dumbest person alive.

Tatsuma: The selling of US military secrets and weapons to China.

Israel never did that, those rumors were debunked.



Tatsuma Lie #1

The United States has imposed sanctions on Israel after a dispute over Israel's sale of drones - unmanned aerial vehicles - to China, according to news reports.
The US has suspended co-operation on several development projects and frozen delivery of night-vision equipment. 2005

Israel has sold advanced military technology to China for more than a decade and is moving to expand its cooperation with Beijing, says R. James Woolsey, the Director of Central Intelligence. 1993

U.S. Suspends Cooperation With Israel on Fighter Jet
Ire at Jerusalem's Arms Deals With China 2005

Tatsuma: Please provide a link that Israel is the only country to benefit of such an arrangement.



In addition, the military funding for Israel is handled differently than it is for other countries. Israel's $3 billion is put almost immediately into an interest-bearing account with the Federal Reserve Bank. The interest, collected by Israel on its military aid balance, is used to pay down debt from earlier Israeli non-guaranteed loans from the United States.

Another unique aspect of the assistance package is that about 25 percent of it can be used to buy arms from Israeli companies. No other country has that privilege, according to a September 2010 CRS report. 2011

Tatsuma: Again, link for proof, and how did that cost anything extra to America when that reserve exists specifically to be used?


It costs in money, and it costs in diplomatic problems.

Tatsuma: So basically I gave an example of concrete events and things that Israel did for America post propaganda on fark

 
2013-05-05 10:40:43 AM  

Ontos: Diplomacy and material support is still a far cry from "fight their war for them".

Words mean things.


1973 was huge

The US paid, dearly, as the Arabs enacted their oil embargo in direct response to US aid to Israel for 1973.

You are going to have a tough time saying the US did not fight for Israel in 1973.   The US paid militarily, diplomatically, and the US paid on the homefront.
 
2013-05-05 10:42:10 AM  
Just the economic impact of the US defense of Israel for 1973 is something just so casually forgotten about in that list of propaganda above, too.
 
2013-05-05 10:43:34 AM  

gilgigamesh: Seriously though, I think you are thinking of someone else. We've had discussions before about all sorts of things. You have a great taste in music.


shiat sorry I read something else entirely.

I thought you were accusing me of making the thread about me and bailing. I was wondering what the fark you were talking about. I was genuinely confused as to why you would say something like that, since I don't really recall ever talking to you much in the Israel threads, though we have indeed discussed a lot about music and other topics in the past. I thought you'd just came in to give me a cheap shot and then left, so that's why I said that.

Let me reiterate my apology: so very sorry, I read that way too quickly and thought that maybe over the last two years you'd crossed over to the lazy and passive-aggressive side for some reason. (Notice that the post right above yours I just quoted is from another user who just usually comes in threads to post two or three times about me without ever actually contributing to anything else)

I read too fast and reacted like an ass, so let me apologize for the third time.

gilgigamesh: It is also true that these threads always become about you. Or more specifically, about Israel in the abstract, with you on one side and a bunch of people yelling at you on the other. That isn't entirely your fault, because there are frankly a lot of antisemitic dickbags on Fark who dump on you because you are a Jew who defends Israel. But take a look at this thread. It turned from the topic to a discussion about Israel's treatment of African immigrants, the attack on the USS Liberty 40 years ago, foreign aid to Israel, and pretty much everything but the topic. Again, not entirely your fault. But it happens a lot when you are in these Israel threads.

Just some food for thought.


Yeah I know. Sometimes I feel like using an alt would be helpful as it might help keeping things on topics, but I've never used those and don't plan to start using them anytime soon either.
 
2013-05-05 10:46:08 AM  
The OPEC Oil Embargo, which lasted from October 1973 to March 1974, posed a major threat to the U.S. economy. Moreover, the Nixon Administration's efforts to address the effects of the embargo ultimately presented the United States with many foreign policy challenges.

During the October 1973 Arab-Israeli War, the Arab members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) announced an embargo against the United States in response to the U.S. decision to re-supply the Israeli military during the war. OPEC members also extended the embargo to other countries that supported Israel. The embargo both banned petroleum exports to the targeted nations and introduced cuts in oil production. Several years of negotiations between oil producing nations and oil companies had already destabilized a decades-old system of oil pricing, and thus the OPEC embargo was particularly effective.
 
2013-05-05 10:48:32 AM  

Tatsuma: I read too fast and reacted like an ass, so let me apologize for the third time.


No need to apologize at all. As I noted, these threads tend to turn into a barfight. If I walk into one, I'm not going to biatch if someone hits me over the head with a chair by mistake.
 
2013-05-05 10:49:25 AM  

people: The United States has imposed sanctions on Israel after a dispute over Israel's sale of drones - unmanned aerial vehicles - to China, according to news reports.
The US has suspended co-operation on several development projects and frozen delivery of night-vision equipment. 2005


And later it was revealed that Israel had in fact acted according the the guidelines set forth by the US and did nothing wrong.

people: Israel has sold advanced military technology to China for more than a decade and is moving to expand its cooperation with Beijing, says R. James Woolsey, the Director of Central Intelligence. 1993


From the last line of the article:

An Israeli diplomat, who spoke on condition of anonymity, noted that the four-paragraph C.I.A. statement to the committee did not say the Israelis had been re-exporting American technology.

Israel was not selling US secrets or technology according to your very 'proof' that I was lying.

people: U.S. Suspends Cooperation With Israel on Fighter Jet
Ire at Jerusalem's Arms Deals With China 2005


Quoting the same story that turned out wrong = twice the proofs?

people: In addition, the military funding for Israel is handled differently than it is for other countries. Israel's $3 billion is put almost immediately into an interest-bearing account with the Federal Reserve Bank. The interest, collected by Israel on its military aid balance, is used to pay down debt from earlier Israeli non-guaranteed loans from the United States.

Another unique aspect of the assistance package is that about 25 percent of it can be used to buy arms from Israeli companies. No other country has that privilege, according to a September 2010 CRS report. 2011


So one guy is claiming this, but even if true, how does this disprove anything in my original post? It merely says that Israel has a better deal on military aid than other countries, it's not robbing America of anything.

So you really have debunked nothing I posted so far, and posted links that debunked your own points. Well played, people, well played.
 
2013-05-05 10:51:30 AM  

Then just go google things like


aipac + oil + sanctions


You'll get a lot of hits for the recent push for sanctions.  Don't forget about the 90's!  AIPAC rammed through sanctions on Iran, pissing off all sorts of oil companies.  Oil companies learned their lesson after that

And the oil companies, still angry at AIPAC for its role in creating ILSA and blocking the Iran-Conoco deal, realized that they'd be better off cooperating with the group than confronting it.

thats about all you need

 
2013-05-05 10:54:48 AM  

gilgigamesh: No need to apologize at all. As I noted, these threads tend to turn into a barfight. If I walk into one, I'm not going to biatch if someone hits me over the head with a chair by mistake.


Fair enough.

As I said earlier, in the fog of war, chances of friendly fire jump through the roof
 
2013-05-05 11:00:32 AM  

Tatsuma: And later it was revealed that Israel had in fact acted according the the guidelines set forth by the US and did nothing wrong.


You are going to have to do a little better than that, liar.

Theres decades of this.   Here you go.  Lets see those citations rebutting all of them

US 'anger' at Israel weapons sale  2004

U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq
Israel is China's second largest supplier of arms. Coincidentally, the newest addition to the Chinese air force, the F-10 multi-role fighter, is an almost identical version of the Lavi (Lion). The Lavi was a joint Israeli-American design based upon the F-16 for manufacture in Israel, but financed mostly with American aid. Plagued by cost overruns, it was canceled in 1987, but not before the U.S. spent $1.5 billion on the project.

Investigator Says Israel Illegally Sold U.s. Weapons, Technology 1992Israel Rebuffs U.S. Demand To Cancel China Arms Deal 2000DESPITE STRONG PUBLIC opposition from the United States, Israel is proceeding with the sale to China of an advanced airborne early-warning (AEW) radar system, which U.S. officials warn could affect the strategic balance between China and Taiwan. After April meetings with Defense Secretary William Cohen and President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak would say only that Israel would continue discussions on the deal with the United States.

In a 1996 deal with China worth approximately $1 billion, Israel agreed to equip four Russian-supplied aircraft with the Phalcon system, a state-of-the-art, long-range radar capable of simultaneously tracking multiple airborne and surface targets. U.S. government officials believe, and Israeli officials insist, that no U.S. technology is involved.


Israeli Arms Technology Aids China : Military: U.S. officials say the growing cooperation undercuts sanctions imposed after Beijing crushed protests. Washington has objected.   1990|JIM MANN |  TIMES STAFF WRITERWASHINGTON - In the year since the Bush Administration blocked U.S. military sales to China after the crushing of democracy protests at Tian An Men Square, Israel has emerged as the most important foreign supplier of advanced military technology to China, officials in the Bush Administration and Congress say.

According to these sources, Israel increasingly is providing China with military technology that China is unable to obtain from the United States. Some U.S. defense specialists say that Israel may be supplying China with engine technology to build a new combat jet fighter.
 
2013-05-05 11:03:09 AM  
 
2013-05-05 11:08:26 AM  

people: US 'anger' at Israel weapons sale 2004


Third time you link to the same story. You are getting really really desperate aren't you?

people: U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq


CommonDreams? Come on.

people: 1990|


Israel was not selling either US weapons or secrets to China

people: 1992I


Unnamed country doing this, only speculation and Israel saying they were not doing what one person accused them of doing.


Seriously, that's the best you got?
 
2013-05-05 11:09:46 AM  
Israel's role in China's new warplane
By David Isenberg

The recent unveiling (sort of) of China's first domestically designed (sort of) fighter jet was the culmination of a long saga of international military-hardware wheeling and dealing that has seen US-designed or -funded high-tech weaponry fall into the hands of potential military rivals.
..
"Israel ranks second only to Russia as a weapons-system provider to China and as a conduit for sophisticated military technology, followed by France and Germany," stated a report this year by the US-China Security Review Commission, a panel established by Congress to examine security and economic relations between the two countries. "Recent upgrades in target acquisition and fire control, probably provided by Israeli weapons specialists, have enhanced the capabilities of the older guided missile destroyers and frigates" in the Chinese navy's inventory, it said.

The commission cited Israel as a supplier to Beijing of radar systems, optical and telecommunications equipment, drones and flight simulators.

...

The J-10 is hardly the only result of Israeli-Chinese military cooperation. For example, the Chinese F-8, the same type of plane that collided with the US reconnaissance plane last year, is armed with Israeli Python-3 missiles. The Python, adapted from the US ALM-9L Sidewinder missile, has a high degree of US technology. Ironically for Israel, China apparently sold its version of Python-3, called the PL-8, to Iraq.
 
2013-05-05 11:10:42 AM  

Tatsuma: that's the best you got?


If you skip over the stuff that shows you to be a liar.
 
2013-05-05 11:12:06 AM  
There's a huge difference between Israel selling its own weapons and technology to China versus unauthorized sales of US weapons, technology and secrets. I certainly don't deny that the former happens, but the former is also legal and permitted by the US, even though they weren't happy about it from time to time.
 
2013-05-05 11:13:47 AM  

people: By David Isenberg


It also says that Germany and France sell weapons to China. So does Israel. That's not in question. What is in question is:

Does Israel sell US weapons and secrets to China against US wishes and the answer is no.
 
2013-05-05 11:14:47 AM  
Arms apology
Jerusalem, June 19(Reuters): Israel publicly apologised to the US today over arms exports to China that have drawn criticism from Washington and strained US-Israeli security ties.

"It is impossible to hide the crisis between Israel and the United States with regard to the security industries. We are doing everything possible to put it behind us," Israeli foreign minister Silvan Shalom said on Israel Radio.

The dispute centres on Israel's sale of Harpy attack drones and other advanced technology to China that the Pentagon fears could tilt the balance of power and make it difficult to defend Taiwan, which Beijing deems a renegade province.

"If things were done that were not acceptable to the Americans then we are sorry but these things were done with the utmost innocence," Shalom said.
 
2013-05-05 11:16:04 AM  

Tatsuma: Does Israel sell US weapons and secrets to China against US wishes and the answer is no.


Israel openly apologized for it.

Sometimes I wonder if you are a skinhead at home, making these terrible arguments on purpose.
 
2013-05-05 11:17:25 AM  
You are the walking embodiment of poes law.

You have to take a minute and go, are you a fundie settler, or trying to be a parody of one.

I'm going with you are a fundie, but you do have to take a moment when your arguments are this bad.
 
2013-05-05 11:18:35 AM  

people: Arms apology


The IAI Harpy is an Israeli-made drone, and the other weapons that were sold were also homemade Israeli products, not US weapons or US secrets.

Seriously reaching at straws.
 
2013-05-05 11:19:58 AM  

people: Israel openly apologized for it.


Israel openly apologized for selling Israeli weapons to China, not for selling US weapons and US secrets, which has been your baseless contention from the beginning.

I've stated multiple times that yes indeed Israel does sell its own weapons to China, much like France, Germany, the UK, etc...
 
2013-05-05 11:25:21 AM  

Tatsuma: The IAI Harpy is an Israeli-made drone


The problem was, as stated, the Harpy contains US tech.    Frankly, how the flip can you have indigenous tech in Israel with so much draw from the US.

Tatsuma: Israeli weapons


So conveniently leaving out the  The J-10 is hardly the only result of Israeli-Chinese military cooperation. For example, the Chinese F-8, the same type of plane that collided with the US reconnaissance plane last year, is armed with Israeli Python-3 missiles. The Python, adapted from the US ALM-9L Sidewinder missile, has a high degree of US technology. Ironically for Israel, China apparently sold its version of Python-3, called the PL-8, to Iraq.
 
2013-05-05 11:26:27 AM  

Tatsuma: Israel does sell its own weapons made wuth US technology and US weapons to China


Fixed for you.
Thanks, ally.
 
2013-05-05 11:28:11 AM  

people: The problem was, as stated, the Harpy contains US tech. Frankly, how the flip can you have indigenous tech in Israel with so much draw from the US.


Modified US tech, and yes, Israel apologized for that. They didn't realize it breached those guidelines and they rectified the situation. At no point were those sales a secret or done in the dark to keep the US from learning about it.

Sometimes, companies and governments fark up, and then take steps to repair their mistakes.

Israel is not taking US tech and secrets, then turning around and selling them to China. A few items sold over the year also happened to have tech in them that was based on US tech and then modified by Israeli companies (very often in joint-R&D) and these slipped through the cracks.
 
2013-05-05 11:31:04 AM  
The United States has known about Israeli military sales to China since the 1970s, but had turned a blind eye until the early 1990s.

A joint U.S.-Israeli fighter development program in the 1980s called the Lavi was canceled, but U.S. technology from the program is suspected of ending up in China's new J-10 fighter.

"We started having a problem with Israel in the 1990s, especially after the 1996 Chinese missile threats against Taiwan when we got the feeling that China's ballistic missile technology was modernizing way too fast," said John Tkacik, a former State Department intelligence analyst on China.

While Bill Clinton was president, Israel transferred sensitive radar technology to China, including armed Harpy anti-radar drones that were spotted by U.S. intelligence agencies deployed opposite Taiwan, prompting the Pentagon to argue that Israeli technology might be used against American forces in any defense of the island.

Israel also was accused by the Pentagon and U.S. intelligence agencies of covertly supplying the Patriot anti-missile system technology to China in the early 1990s.

The tension between the United States and Israel boiled over during the Bush administration. Frustrated by Israel's lack of candor over its arms sales to China, Amos Yaron, the director general of Israel's ministry of defense, was at one point barred from entering the Pentagon.

Mr. Herzog said Israel stopped sensitive transfers to China in 2005 and created an office to oversee military exports.

"In the past it so happened that Israel did make exports on its own without consulting with the United States," Mr. Herzog said. "Now the consultation is more important."


Read more:  http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/23/us-israeli-defense-te c hnology-collaboration-began-/#ixzz2SQso6Hc9
 
2013-05-05 11:31:41 AM  
So you went from 'Israel sells US weapons and tech to China all the time!!!' to 'Well Israel once sold a few different systems that contained modified US tech and apologized for the oversight and promised not to do it again'

Pretty much as accurate as 'The US swoops in to fight wars for Israel!' to 'Well the US used diplomatic tactics and shipped weapons that were more or less not used during the Yom Kippur war'

Well played, again.
 
2013-05-05 11:32:52 AM  
Ah yes, CommonDreams, the Washington Times, soon: What Really Happened, Art Bell and the homeless guy in the subway!
 
2013-05-05 11:35:12 AM  

Tatsuma: Modified US tech,


OH!


Movement!  How nice!  Perhaps you need to add that in your wall 'o' text next time.

Such an improvement over "Israel never did that [sold US military secrets and weapons to China), those rumors were debunked."
 
Displayed 50 of 374 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report