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(Slate)   Personal remembrances on the 43rd anniversary of a Fark Photoshop cliche   (slate.com) divider line 98
    More: Interesting, Kent State University, Carole Barbuto, anti-war, history teacher, Gwen Ifill, visitor center, communication studies, Mary Ann Vecchio  
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9149 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 May 2013 at 5:53 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-04 09:02:59 PM  
Altering that photo is seriously disrespectful to the student who died and the woman who lived through it. It also makes light of what was a horrible time in our history.

But this is fark. I shouldn't be surprised.
Cue "Welcome to Fark.jpg"
 
2013-05-04 09:03:10 PM  

Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.


I don't really see it that way. The current wars are a result of 9/11 getting the American people riled up and wanting bloody revenge while we unfortunately had brain dead leadership at the time who carried out an invasion of two nations without a good plan of what they wanted to accomplish and what the conditions for victory were. They created a big, huge complicated mess that is near impossible for us to cleanly extricate ourselves from. A draft would probably have gotten the youth a little more riled up than they already were, but the big lesson from Vietnam was that it is probably worse to have more guys with crappy training who don't want to be there than a smaller number of highly trained soldiers who are really motivated. A draft would just have made it even more of a hot mess than it already was.

What you really need to do, instead of re-instating the draft and screwing up the well trained military we have, is to  require that costs associated with a military action be offset with tax increases, except in the case of a formally declared war. Now THAT would create some accountability without hurting the effectiveness of the military.
 
2013-05-04 09:19:08 PM  

panfried: False Flag ops!1!1
[drkatesview.files.wordpress.com image 548x487]
WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!


i44.tinypic.com
 
2013-05-04 09:24:01 PM  

theotherles: And then I decided to quote from my blog:


geoffishere.com

Vietnam and Korea were basically dick measuring contests between us, China, and the USSR that eventually meant nothing because capitalism won out in the end, and now the biggest threat to human rights and freedom really isn't communism anymore, but rather unchallenged corporatism. War has become another big government subsidized business, and we keep building tanks we don't need and fighters that will never see combat because it keeps the military industrial complex running.

A truly great man once said: "The best would be this: a life of perpetual fear and tension; a burden of arms draining the wealthand the labor of all peoples; a wasting of strength that defies the American system or the Soviet system or any system to achieve true abundance and happiness for the peoples of this earth.Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

This world in arms in not spending money alone.It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.

The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities.It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals.It is some 50 miles of concrete highway.We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat.We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.

This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking.This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."

Of course, he was probably some dirty hippie peacenik to you.
 
2013-05-04 09:27:03 PM  
Once you see the pole in the girl's head, you will notice it every time you see that photo for the rest of your days.
 
2013-05-04 09:33:37 PM  

John Buck 41: Lorelle: The Establishment has enacted laws that criminalize texting while driving.

Good.

It's worse than Vietnam.

If I was a Nam vet I'd be outraged at that comment.


Someone's sarcasm detector needs fixin'.
 
2013-05-04 09:36:26 PM  
The Kent State murders changed my life. I was a typical apolitical student, against the war a little, but at the time not so much. After Kent State I understood that the Republican president of the US, Richard Nixon, intended to kill me for no reason. And I saw the dead in Ohio to prove it. fark the GOP.
 
2013-05-04 09:37:21 PM  

zabadu: Altering that photo is seriously disrespectful to the student who died and the woman who lived through it. It also makes light of what was a horrible time in our history.

But this is fark. I shouldn't be surprised.
Cue "Welcome to Fark.jpg"


I was in the May 4th TasK Force while at Kent State and meet a few of the disabled students, but I'm fine with this threads. I've laughed at 9/11 jokes so I have no right to take offense to anything really.
 
2013-05-04 09:38:01 PM  

Lorelle: John Buck 41: Lorelle: The Establishment has enacted laws that criminalize texting while driving.

Good.

It's worse than Vietnam.

If I was a Nam vet I'd be outraged at that comment.

Someone's sarcasm detector needs fixin'.


Sometimes it's hard to tell here on Fark. I truly apologize.
 
2013-05-04 09:39:47 PM  

Delay: The Kent State murders changed my life. I was a typical apolitical student, against the war a little, but at the time not so much. After Kent State I understood that the Republican president of the US, Richard Nixon, intended to kill me for no reason. And I saw the dead in Ohio to prove it. fark the GOP.


I'm a Dem, but it started as a Democratic war, but yeah fark Nixon and the GOP for derailing the Paris peace talks and invading Cambodia.
 
2013-05-04 09:45:52 PM  

RepoManTSM: fark Nixon and the GOP for derailing the Paris peace talks and invading Cambodia.


Yep. The invasion of Cambodia was another GOP stinker. My draft lottery number was right on the edge of cannon fodder or Mitt Romney happy in Paris. I truly hate Republicans.
 
2013-05-04 09:51:37 PM  
t.qkme.me

/ futhermuckers, biatches
 
2013-05-04 09:56:06 PM  

Delay: The Kent State murders changed my life. I was a typical apolitical student, against the war a little, but at the time not so much. After Kent State I understood that the Republican president of the US, Richard Nixon, intended to kill me for no reason. And I saw the dead in Ohio to prove it. fark the GOP.


How very egocentric! You really believed that Nixon wanted you dead? And with all the armed might of the United States military at his disposal, he was unable to achieve his one true aim? Wow, suddenly 20th century history makes total sense! It's ALL ABOUT YOU!
 
2013-05-04 10:02:01 PM  
And the irony of it all was that it was draft dodgers shooting draft dodgers....
 
2013-05-04 10:02:56 PM  

theotherles: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The first thing that came to was this:

Two Million dead in Cambodia alone because of your depravity.  Burn in Hell m*h*rf*ck*r.

And then I decided to quote from my blog:

If there is one thing I have certainly noticed, it is that pacifists in general have no objection to enjoying the benefits of civilization but are unwilling to take the measures necessary to defend it from foreign and domestic barbarians. Such as the National Socialists, the Soviet Socialists, and the home grown socialists of the Democratic Party.  Contrary to their general delusion of virtue, pacifists are in effect, moral and political parasites upon civilized society.

Peace in the real world is simply the absence of those -- such as the socialists -- who seek to deprive you, I, and our fellow citizens of our own Life, Liberty, and Property. Real peace can only be achieved by the physical isolation or outright elimination of those who seek to subjugate, plunder and murder us. This can only be done through the use of physical force.  In short, true peace can only be achieved only through the possession of superior firepower and the moral will to use it.

The narcissistic trash that makes up the membership of the so-called peace movement simply do not care whether you and your children live, or die, or suffer under the yoke of an unwashed barbarian. They plaster their cars with bumper sticker, carry signs, bang on drums, throw Frisbees, and perform other useless rituals so that they can feel good about themselves and show the world how morally superior they are. Never mind that they openly deny the fundamental fact which is the foundation of all valid moral law, that Human Life -- life as a rational being in control of one's own life -- is the standard of all moral values, and that those who would damage or destroy Human Life must be removed from human society and if necessary be destroyed.  The adherents of pacifism have so inverted their own mental processes that they look upon the perpetrators of mass slavery and mass murder as good and those who take up arms to defend the society of consent as the most depraved evil.

Now there are some folks, who regard themselves as morally superior beings, who question why the other bastard has to die. The answer of course is that the other bastard is attempting to impose his will, or the will of his leader, upon you by force. It is the act of coercion by force that makes what General Patton called the other bastard an enemy.  Peace is simply the absence of enemies.  But there are some folks, who pretend to be morally superior beings, who would have us believe that "peace" could be achieved by submission to the will of the other bastard. In reality this is not peace, it is slavery.  There are some well meaning people, some of whom that I respect, who believe that there are times that one cannot have both peace and freedom at the same time.  I have to disagree.  Liberty is simply the condition of existence in which the person is free to live his own life in accordance with his own rational judgment. This does of course require the absence of some other bastard who is attempting to impose his will upon the person by force.  In practical terms real peace and real freedom are inseparable. I will go further is saying that to a civilized person, peace, freedom, and security, are simply three words that can be used to describe the identical condition, the absence of another bastard imposing his will upon the civilized person.  Contrary to what those who describe themselves as peace activists would have us believe, and as General Patton has ably demonstrated, the path to real peace invariably takes us over the real dead bodies of those other bastards who insist on violently imposing their will upon us.  Unfortunately this process is by no means a safe one.  Let us take this day to remember those who died on the path to real peace.

A rational study of the real world would show that a real state of Peace is effectively indistinguishable from a state of Liberty and a state of Security. Peace, Liberty, and Security are simply three words that a rational person uses to describe the same condition, the rightful ability to live one's own life without coercive interference by others.  A rational study of actual history would show that the state of peace for the citizens of a free nation is the result of the violent elimination of the would be conquerors and their pet quislings.  If we rationally examine those who constitute the membership of the so-called Peace Movement we find that virtually every one of them is an open advocate of the coercive subjugation of the productive members of the Human Race. The occasional exception being a self-blinded fool who isn't paying attention to what they're ideologically in bed with.  In short, a "peace activist" and the "peace movement" are in fact enemies of Peace.

Peace is only an affirmative value to those who live in the condition of liberty, that is being rightfully in charge of one's self and able to set the goals for one's own life. Peace cannot be a value to the subjects of a totalitarian socialist state. To the victim of such a state -- the ordinary worker who is bullied by a commissar, the inmate of a slave labor camp, or the occupant of a darkened cell awaiting murder at the hands of the local chekists -- war, either an internal uprising against the socialist masters, or an invasion by an army of liberation, is in fact the positive value.


tl;dr
 
2013-05-04 10:11:58 PM  

Nidiot: Inaditch: [farm9.staticflickr.com image 800x537]
World Planking Champion, 1970

Okay, I admit that made me laugh.

Lately all that pic does is remind me of the Boston Bombing photos. It might no have the scattered limbs, but it's still expresses the tragedy of innocent people being killed.



Boston Marathon runners were truly innocents. The Kent State protesters didn't deserve to die, but many were violating various laws and orders to disperse. Arrest would have been justified, except for the fact the National Guard's armory had been set on fire 2 days before by some of these same protesters.
 
2013-05-04 10:16:17 PM  

zabadu: Altering that photo is seriously disrespectful to the student who died and the woman who lived through it. It also makes light of what was a horrible time in our history.

But this is fark. I shouldn't be surprised.
Cue "Welcome to Fark.jpg"


I read an article yesterday about one of the meme-photos of a guy with Down's, and how his internet fame has made his family's life really difficult and how once they explained to him why exactly he was famous, he was physically ill for a while. It made me stop and think for a minute about those various photos we see here all the time, and my interpretation is that we're not usually laughing AT the person in such photos, but at an idea. It's kind of a weird place to be. Another adult I was in classes with last semester has a younger brother with Down's, and from what she said he's a joy to be around and everyone in their small town loves him, but I'm sure if pictures of him made it online similar things would happen. It just made me think about how we're divorced from the reality of the person in the photo in that instant of their lives.

Yeah, yeah. Welcome to Fark.
 
2013-05-04 10:21:51 PM  

RepoManTSM: Delay: The Kent State murders changed my life. I was a typical apolitical student, against the war a little, but at the time not so much. After Kent State I understood that the Republican president of the US, Richard Nixon, intended to kill me for no reason. And I saw the dead in Ohio to prove it. fark the GOP.

I'm a Dem, but it started as a Democratic war, but yeah fark Nixon and the GOP for derailing the Paris peace talks and invading Cambodia.


Not apologizing for Nixon, he was a dick.

Remember the context of the times. The Yippies, the SDS, and the Weather Underground had all been advocating for destroying the State. Buildings had been bombed or set on fire by protesters. Amping up the tension and causing the response you see in this famous photograph.

My Grandparents were Chicagoans in 1968. None of them could understand how all these out of town asshats were coming in to blow up their town. Protesters throwing bags of sh*t at cops, wrecking cars and vandalizing. Standard issue protester stuff. Not the kind of thing everyone wants to have handed to them in their front yard by out of towners.

I never quite understood the vitriol they had until I had WTO handed to me in my neighborhood in 1999. My building was surrounded by police for 4 days, out of town violent street protesters were out smashing windows and stealing things every night. Along with the many thousands of peaceful protesters, there was an evil aggressive sh*tty contingent that I saw first hand and saw ample evidence of throughout WTO. Brickthrowers Local 666 Eugene. People coming to my home to f*ck it up.

So ever since even if the cause is right, anything other than a peaceful protest has tended to have me be siding with the cops, as wrong as that is. Why? Because the cops are just doing their jobs, often forced to earn overtime and work double shifts, often with bad contingency plans, often with political high ups screwing up the chain of command. Always with the "eyes of the world" judging their every move. And nobody ever blames the asshat out of town protesters. A good cause can be turned bad by only a few dozen aggressive fire-lighting window-breaking asshats. I've seen it. Saw it just 3 days ago again, in fact. Seattle has become permanent annual WTO re-enactment zone. I still live where I see this first hand. I still side with police. Not because I don't think the worlds screwed up, it definitely is, but the facile and idiotic "Anarchists" offer nothing but destruction. I am "the enemy" to them, and always will be. I'm a successful middle class individual. To them, a sell out syncophant tool of the evil State.
 
2013-05-04 11:11:49 PM  

studebaker hoch: Once you see the pole in the girl's head, you will notice it every time you see that photo for the rest of your days.


Which is why it was darkroom-shopped out of the pic that won the Pulitzer.
 
2013-05-04 11:15:32 PM  

Nidiot: Students today can't imagine why the students didn't just leave. They don't see protesting as part of the First Amendment. I think maybe they are desensitized; I don't know. What have they experienced in their young lives that would cause you to stand up and be willing to go to jail for it?


Jail is one thing, but no one expected to be shot for protesting.

Despicable event in history.


Half of the people killed weren't protesting. One student was walking to class; she was nowhere near the protest. Another was walking to class nearby, and some asshole Guardsman shot him. He was holding his textbook when he fell. The other two were trying to get away.
 
2013-05-04 11:25:30 PM  

johnnygew: nekom: insert Neil Young lyrics here


If Paul McCartney wants to try boogie-woogie, he comes up with the awesome piano on Lady Madonna. But how long did it last? Two years later, Kent State happens.
 
2013-05-04 11:27:21 PM  

theotherles: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss f

theotherles: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The first thing that came to was this:

Two Million dead in Cambodia alone because of your depravity.  Burn in Hell m*h*rf*ck*r.

And then I decided to quote from my blog:


And, just like your blog, nobody's going to read your derp here, either.
 
2013-05-04 11:30:09 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-05 01:23:56 AM  
Gee, no one wanted to ban guns when it was the government shooting defenseless students.
 
2013-05-05 02:53:35 AM  

il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.


Yep. It will be a long time before those farking Republicans will again enact a draft.

Oh, wait.....
 
2013-05-05 03:04:27 AM  

theotherles: d the home grown socialists of the Democratic Party.


trololololol

\ew
 
2013-05-05 03:10:26 AM  

Delay: The Kent State murders changed my life. I was a typical apolitical student, against the war a little, but at the time not so much. After Kent State I understood that the Republican president of the US, Richard Nixon, intended to kill me for no reason. And I saw the dead in Ohio to prove it. fark the GOP.


Well it sure is a good thing that those were the worst years to ever come out of the GOP. Yup, that surely was their low point, I can't imagine the GOP ever behaving worse than it did under Nixon.
 
2013-05-05 03:13:53 AM  

Generation_D: Nidiot: Inaditch: [farm9.staticflickr.com image 800x537]
World Planking Champion, 1970

Okay, I admit that made me laugh.

Lately all that pic does is remind me of the Boston Bombing photos. It might no have the scattered limbs, but it's still expresses the tragedy of innocent people being killed.


Boston Marathon runners were truly innocents. The Kent State protesters didn't deserve to die, but many were violating various laws and orders to disperse. Arrest would have been justified, except for the fact the National Guard's armory had been set on fire 2 days before by some of these same protesters.


Yeah, but it wasn't only protesters getting shot. some of those poor kids were just waling to and from class. The protests at Berkeley were often the same ways, I've heard from coworkers that sometimes you were walking home from class and suddenly you'd see a bunch of kids running past you and you knew that you had better run with them or your ass was about to get beaten. It was terrifying apparently.
 
2013-05-05 03:15:35 AM  

Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.


Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay and dangerous conditions, but you get shiat later; NOT "socialism").

5) teaches firearms familiarity and use; which I believe is good for social stability --- and a government respectful of it's employers.

6) Having all been in the military, those employers of the government will have a more realistic perspective of when going to war is actually a necessity, when it is simply a dick-waving adventure, and when it is being conducted in an idiotic manner (i.er.: Vietnam). They will thus be a better counterweight to the government's desires in the matter.
 
2013-05-05 03:26:50 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay and dangerous conditions, but you get shiat later; NOT "socialism").

5) teaches firearms famil ...


I think this could work, but I would argue that there are definitely some people that should not serve. There are some people that are simply too screwed up in the head to extract beneficial work from. Paranoid schizophrenics, people with crippling depression. people with such issues with authority that they present an active threat to others and have no business being anywhere near weapons. The friggin' teenage wanna be gangsters, and actual gangsters for that matter. Hard core junkies, alcoholics, and the severely mentally retarded I don't think you can simply create a position that fits them in order to fit everyone in.   Otherwise, I can't argue with your plan. It sure would make this countries leaders think twice about starting a decade(s) long war in the middle east, assuming they couldn't use their power to ensure their progeny's safety.
 
2013-05-05 04:27:28 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.


4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay and dangerous conditions, but you get shiat later; NOT "socialism").

5) teaches firearms familiarity and use; which I believe is good for social stability --- and a government respectful of it's employers.

6) Having all been in the military, those employers of the government will have a more realistic perspective of when going to war is actually a necessity, when it is simply a dick-waving adventure, and when it is being conducted in an idiotic manner (i.er.: Vietnam). They will thus be a better counterweight to the government's desires in the matter.

I think this could work, but I would argue that there are definitely some people that should not serve. There are some people that are simply too screwed up in the head to extract beneficial work from. Paranoid schizophrenics, people with crippling depression. people with such issues with authority that they present an active threat to others and have no business being anywhere near weapons. The friggin' teenage wanna be gangsters, and actual gangsters for that matter. Hard core junkies, alcoholics, and the severely mentally retarded I don't think you can simply create a position that fits them in order to fit everyone in.Otherwise, I can't argue with your plan. It sure would make this countries leaders think twice about starting a decade(s) long war in the middle east, assuming they couldn't use their power to ensure their progeny's safety.


I actually agree with you, But I can't help but think that allowing any exceptions would open the door to corruption and game-playing. Example: the some of a fabulously wealthy senator gets a pass due to his "crippling depression" attested to by several doctors, all with fat Swiss bank accounts funded by Daddy.

How about using the mentally ill for military-run medical studies? With proper safeguards their participation could be quite valuable. People that shouldn't be near weapons - put 'em in an office capacity. Wannabe gangsters and real ones - at the very least giving them weapons training would mean that they could shoot better (and leave less wounded innocent bystanders in future drive-bys). Seriously, though, given them some old fashioned boot camp reprogramming and productive work, and a lot of them MIGHT be turned around. The last three categories? You may be right, but junkies and alcoholics could be treated in a military setting, and some junkies operate just fine if they have their daily fixes. (A sane drug policy might help here.) And doesn't goodwill today have simple jobs for even the mentally challenged? Very severe retardation, though, as in a persistent vegetative state, I gotta agree with you. Yeah, probably that would have to be an exemption.
 
2013-05-05 04:36:30 AM  
I remember that some Fark modmin banned me for a time for using that image in a Photoshop contest a few years ago while everyone else seemed to be able to post variations of it with no consequence.
 
2013-05-05 05:05:01 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.


Oh wait, you're serious... Riiiiight.

9 years in the Reserves and I maybe met four or five people who could even be considered 'upper class', and yet were still miles away from the 1%. One of those was engaged to some guy who's parents could afford fancy things, but she never really told me what Jr. did for a living or if he had his own income at all.  The rest were either officers or E-8 or above. Trust me the majority of at least Army 'professional' military are a long long long way from being an elite minority of society.

Most of us came from middle class or lower, mostly lower. I grew up middle-middle class, but by the time I graduated high school we were scraping lower class pretty hard; only fifteen years of payments on the mortgage kept it from bleeding my dad dry after my mom died. Over 80% of the people I served with were living paycheck to paycheck, with the Reserves money just making life less painful. Certainly not people out to subjugate the rest of the population.

I can't speak to the Kent State incident since I wasn't even born yet, but from what I've heard it was more about nervous trigger fingers than jarheads out to kill civilians, and these days I think they'd be even more hesitant.

/my .02
 
2013-05-05 05:19:07 AM  
i451.photobucket.com
\Hooray! It finally fits!
\\heh, that's what she said ;)
\\\notice it's an old bug doing the mounting... that dirty old buggy
 
2013-05-05 05:19:44 AM  
oh  shiat... wrong thread LOL
 
2013-05-05 05:30:11 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay and dangerous conditions, but you get shiat late ...



5) teaches firearms familiarity and use; which I believe is good for social stability --- and a government  respectfulof it's employers.

6) Having  all been in the military, those employers of the government will have a more realistic perspective of when going to war is actually a necessity, when it is simply a dick-waving adventure, and when it is being conducted in an idiotic manner (i.er.: Vietnam). They will thus be a better counterweight to the government's desires in the matter.

I think this could work, but I would argue that there are definitely some people that should not serve. There are some people that are simply too screwed up in the head to extract beneficial work from.  Paranoid schizophrenics, people with crippling depression. people with such issues with authority that they present an active threat to others and have no business being anywhere near weapons. The friggin' teenage wanna be gangsters, and actual gangsters for that matter. Hard core junkies, alcoholics, and the severely mentally retarded I don't think you can simply create a position that fits them in order to fit everyone in.Otherwise, I can't argue with your plan. It sure would make this countries leaders think twice about starting a decade(s) long war in the middle east, assuming they couldn't use their power to ensure their progeny's safety.

I actually agree with you, But I can't help but think that allowing any exceptions would open the door to corruption and game-playing. Example: the some of a fabulously wealthy senator gets a pass due to his "crippling depression" attested to by several doctors, all with fat Swiss bank accounts funded by Daddy.

How about using the mentally ill for military-run medical studies? With proper safeguards their participation could be quite valuable. People that shouldn't be near weapons - put 'em in an office capacity. Wannabe gangsters and real ones - at the very least giving them weapons training would mean that they could shoot better (and leave less wounded innocent bystanders in future drive-bys). Seriously, though, given them some old fashioned boot camp reprogramming and productive work, and a lot of them MIGHT be turned around. The last three categories? You may be right, but junkies and alcoholics could be treated in a military setting, and some junkies operate just fine if they have their daily fixes. (A sane drug policy might help here.) And doesn't goodwill today have simple jobs for even the mentally challenged? Very severe retardation, though, as in a persistent vegetative state, I gotta agree with you. Yeah, probably that would have to be an exemption.


It's a good idea in theory, but I honestly don't think you can get around needing to exempt some groups. Let's start with the most basic and obvious, the mentally retarded with the developmental equivalency of, say, a 4 year old. It's wrong in every possible way to have a 4 year old conscripted. There is no way to explain to them what they are doing, and no way to get them to do any useful work. It would be ethically, and morally repulsive to have a 4 year old (albeit one with an 18 year old's body) forced into the armed services. At the VERY least, you would have to exclude those that don't have the legal standing to make decisions for themselves.

I think you could avoid cronyism and favoritism by having the reason for exclusion follow them around for the rest of their lives. Make it a big asterick on their permanent record. That would prevent politicians from excluding their kids... Imagine "Well, you are applying to Harvard, but it says here in your service record that you have the mental capacity of n 8 year old. I think we will have to pass"  I think if you can guarantee that whatever reason they did not serve permanently becomes part of who they are the likeliness of abuse diminishes.
 
2013-05-05 08:13:36 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay and dangerous cond ...




Service guarantees citizenship. Problem being that you then discourage the authentically ill from tapping out to a side posting because it will hurt them much more than the well connected child.

/and it underestimates how deep cronyism and corruption run in government.
/poor kids get haunted by their record, rich kids serve honorably in an air national guard unit that is never deployed.
 
2013-05-05 08:50:40 AM  

sloshed_again: Oldiron_79: sloshed_again: Oldiron_79: Served the filthy hippies right.

WTF    Somebody along the line let your ass live!

Lawful Evil, its just how I roll.

And how boring the world would be if everyone was JUST LIKE YOU.


Oldiron_79 has admitted to being a troll in other threads, so I'd suggest either ignoring him or using his posts merely for entertainment value.  If he were for real he'd be a pretty evil little bug, but it's not worth getting upset over.
 
2013-05-05 08:53:29 AM  

theotherles: And then I decided to quote from my blog:

If there is one thing I have certainly noticed, it is that pacifists in general have no objection to enjoying the benefits of civilization but are unwilling to take the measures necessary to defend it from foreign and domestic barbarians. Such as the National Socialists, the Soviet Socialists, and the home grown socialists of the Democratic Party.  Contrary to their general delusion of virtue, pacifists are in effect, moral and political parasites upon civilized society.


Yes, you ARE so important that every word you say should be in bold.
 
2013-05-05 10:40:49 AM  

Generation_D: Nidiot: Inaditch: [farm9.staticflickr.com image 800x537]
World Planking Champion, 1970

Okay, I admit that made me laugh.

Lately all that pic does is remind me of the Boston Bombing photos. It might no have the scattered limbs, but it's still expresses the tragedy of innocent people being killed.


Boston Marathon runners were truly innocents. The Kent State protesters didn't deserve to die, but many were violating various laws and orders to disperse. Arrest would have been justified, except for the fact the National Guard's armory had been set on fire 2 days before by some of these same protesters.


Yet the lady in the article says she can't comprehend why those soldiers would have their weapons loaded on campus that day...they were just harmless protesters.

Many in the peace movement were hopelessly naive (and proudly so).  They gave very little thought to how anyone might think differently than them, much less attempt to understand what people who were in the military or who weren't opposed to the war were going through.  As such, it never occurred to them that some of those guard members might have been scared that day.
 
2013-05-05 11:07:06 AM  

DiamondDave: Gee, no one wanted to ban guns when it was the government shooting defenseless students.


Sure they did. The NRA wanted gun control to keep them out of the hands of black nationalists.
 
2013-05-05 01:03:52 PM  

ladyfortuna: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

Oh wait, you're serious... Riiiiight.

9 years in the Reserves and I maybe met four or five people who could even be considered 'upper class', and yet were still miles away from the 1%. One of those was engaged to some guy who's parents could afford fancy things, but she never really told me what Jr. did for a living or if he had his own income at all.  The rest were either officers or E-8 or above. Trust me the majority of at least Army 'professional' military are a long long long way from being an elite minority of society.

Most of us came from middle class or lower, mostly lower. I grew up middle-middle class, but by the time I graduated high school we were scraping lower class pretty hard; only fifteen years of payments on the mortgage kept it from bleeding my dad dry after my mom died. Over 80% of the people I served with were living paycheck to paycheck, with the Reserves money just making life less painful. Certainly not people out to subjugate the rest of the population.

I can't speak to the Kent State incident since I wasn't even born yet, but from what I've heard it was more about nervous trigger fingers than jarheads out to kill civilians, and these days I think they'd be even more hesitant.

/my .02


Sorry, my statement was ambiguous. I wasn't clear. What I mean by "elite minority" is that - regardless of what social strata they come from - a professional volunteer military becomes elite (at the very least in their own minds) by the simple facts that: 1) they are, increasingly, the only members of society who are not brainwashed about, and terrified of, guns, and 2) they develop a shared culture markedly different from that of the society they are defending.

One sure marker for a volunteer military organization becoming an "elite minority" is whether there is a gradual increase in the percentage of "lifers" over the years. I do not know whether that is the case with our current military.
 
2013-05-05 01:08:19 PM  
Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay and dangerous conditions, but you get shiat late ...


5) teaches firearms familiarity and use; which I believe is good for social stability --- and a government  respectfulof it's employers.

6) Having  all been in the military, those employers of the government will have a more realistic perspective of when going to war is actually a necessity, when it is simply a dick-waving adventure, and when it is being conducted in an idiotic manner (i.er.: Vietnam). They will thus be a better counterweight to the government's desires in the matter.

I think this could work, but I would argue that there are definitely some people that should not serve. There are some people that are simply too screwed up in the head to extract beneficial work from.  Paranoid schizophrenics, people with crippling depression. people with such issues with authority that they present an active threat to others and have no business being anywhere near weapons. The friggin' teenage wanna be gangsters, and actual gangsters for that matter. Hard core junkies, alcoholics, and the severely mentally retarded I don't think you can simply create a position that fits them in order to fit everyone in.Otherwise, I can't argue with your plan. It sure would make this countries leaders think twice about starting a decade(s) long war in the middle east, assuming they couldn't use their power to ensure their progeny's safety.

I actually agree with you, But I can't help but think that allowing any exceptions would open the door to corruption and game-playing. Example: the some of a fabulously wealthy senator gets a pass due to his "crippling depression" attested to by several doctors, all with fat Swiss bank accounts funded by Daddy.

How about using the mentally ill for military-run medical studies? With proper safeguards their participation could be quite valuable. People that shouldn't be near weapons - put 'em in an office capacity. Wannabe gangsters and real ones - at the very least giving them weapons training would mean that they could shoot better (and leave less wounded innocent bystanders in future drive-bys). Seriously, though, given them some old fashioned boot camp reprogramming and productive work, and a lot of them MIGHT be turned around. The last three categories? You may be right, but junkies and alcoholics could be treated in a military setting, and some junkies operate just fine if they have their daily fixes. (A sane drug policy might help here.) And doesn't goodwill today have simple jobs for even the mentally challenged? Very severe retardation, though, as in a persistent vegetative state, I gotta agree with you. Yeah, probably that would have to be an exemption.

It's a good idea in theory, but I honestly don't think you can get around needing to exempt some groups. Let's start with the most basic and obvious, the mentally retarded with the developmental equivalency of, say, a 4 year old. It's wrong in every possible way to have a 4 year old conscripted. There is no way to explain to them what they are doing, and no way to get them to do any useful work. It would be ethically, and morally repulsive to have a 4 year old (albeit one with an 18 year old's body) forced into the armed services. At the VERY least, you would have to exclude those that don't have the legal standing to make decisions for themselves.

I think you could avoid cronyism and favoritism by having the reason for exclusion follow them around for the rest of their lives. Make it a big asterick on their permanent record. That would prevent politicians from excluding their kids... Imagine "Well, you are applying to Harvard, but it says here in your service record that you have the mental capacity of n 8 year old. I think we will have to pass"  I think if you can guarantee that whatever reason they did not serve permanently becomes part of who they are the likeliness of abuse diminishes.


Having thought about it, I agree with you one hundred percent.
 
2013-05-05 01:17:44 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Sorry, my statement was ambiguous. I wasn't clear. What I mean by "elite minority" is that - regardless of what social strata they come from - a professional volunteer military becomes elite (at the very least in their own minds) by the simple facts that: 1) they are, increasingly, the only members of society who are not brainwashed about, and terrified of, guns, and 2) they develop a shared culture markedly different from that of the society they are defending.

One sure marker for a volunteer military organization becoming an "elite minority" is whether there is a gradual increase in the percentage of "lifers" over the years. I do not know whether that is the case with our current military.


Fair enough, but from my own experience at least, I really don't think we're in danger of that. There are of course always going to be *some* people like that, but it is actually really hard to stay in our military for life - downsizing during times like the Clinton years gets rid of a lot of people for various reasons. Health problems, injuries, PT failures, and of course all those guys coming back with PTSD who get shafted by the system - all big reasons people discharge either voluntarily (me) or involuntarily.

On top of that there are a ton of people who join specifically for the college money, do their required time, and then GTFO because they don't want to be lifers. Given how many of those people I knew came from families that couldn't afford college otherwise, I don't blame them at all. That's not why I joined, but the semesters that I did use GI Bill, it was helpful (all $147/mo of it...)

tl;dr - we're probably not in much danger of it at this point, which is kind of a nice thing about a voluntary military. If you want to quit, eventually they let you do so.
 
2013-05-05 01:46:43 PM  
Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay and dangerous cond ...


Service guarantees citizenship. Problem being that you then discourage the authentically ill from tapping out to a side posting because it will hurt them much more than the well connected child.

/and it underestimates how deep cronyism and corruption run in government.
/poor kids get haunted by their record, rich kids serve honorably in an air national guard unit that is never deployed.
Yeah, though it sounds attractive in some ways, I've always been a little suspicious of Heinlein's utopia. The best part is the "if you are not a citizen you don't vote BUT don't pay taxes" part. Imminently fair.

That being said, I also recognize that "civilization" is a statistical construction and there will and can never be such a thing as a totally fair society. Government corruption, like the poor, shall always be with us. The Bell Curve reigns supreme.

(And, no, I'm not talking about the book, but the statistical law, so you knee-jerk racist hunters just STFUADIAF, please.)
 
2013-05-05 04:42:59 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

I don't really see it that way. The current wars are a result of 9/11 getting the American people riled up and wanting bloody revenge while we unfortunately had brain dead leadership at the time who carried out an invasion of two nations without a good plan of what they wanted to accomplish and what the conditions for victory were. They created a big, huge complicated mess that is near impossible for us to cleanly extricate ourselves from. A draft would probably have gotten the youth a little more riled up than they already were, but the big lesson from Vietnam was that it is probably worse to have more guys with crappy training who don't want to be there than a smaller number of highly trained soldiers who are really motivated. A draft would just have made it even more of a hot mess than it already was.

What you really need to do, instead of re-instating the draft and screwing up the well trained military we have, is to  require that costs associated with a military action be offset with tax increases, except in the case of a formally declared war. Now THAT would create some accountability without hurting the effectiveness of the military.


A bit of Column A and Column B, in my opinion. While a draft would put the fear of "Now hold on a second! That's my kid you're talking about putting into the Infantry against his will!" into more than few chickenhawks, it could also fill the military up with screw offs, idiots and saboteurs who'll do anything to get kicked out. Who wants to work with a "team" like that? I do, however really  like that idea of a mandatory "war tax" that'd automatically hit everybody's pocketbook should the US military be sent off adventuring on another hare-brained scheme to inflate the military-industrial complex's bank accounts. That's a lovely idea. Run with it.
 
2013-05-05 06:51:24 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's part of the deal - crappy pay a ...


So, I guess you indirectly addressed my stumbling block of exclusion for those incapable of making their own decisions by adding the qualifier that service means citizenship?
 
2013-05-06 03:10:43 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Generation_D: il Dottore: I've got permanent hearing loss from a red neck National Guard rifle butt to the ear for protesting the Viet Nam war. We challenged and changed the cannon fodder paradigm for your parents.

You're Welcome.

The all-volunteer army is a big part of whats wrong with this country. It allows wars of attrition to be started with impunity by leaders unafraid of massive dispute by the public at large. I cite the hippie movement as responsible for Be All You Can Be and the current trend of sending in the troops every time some asshat like Cheney has a hard on for war.

Unintended consequence of your mighty protests.

Yep. I'm also suspicious of any professional military. A professional military composed of an elite minority of a society eventually becomes contemptuous of the society it is protecting. That's a really good recipe for military coups.

A better solution might have been that everybody serves two years of active service. No deferments, no exemptions. Everybody, rich or poor, influential or a nobody, son/daughter of a senator or son/daughter of a homeless family. Everybody. Got a physical or mental impairment? The DOD will think up something useful for you to do that will also help you develop a (hopefully marketable) skill compatible with your condition.

Think of it as a tax.

Some of the advantages:

1) lots of 18 year olds haven't the faintest idea what they want to do after they graduate from high school; a two year sabbatical will help them in that process.

2) it teaches both respect for legitimate authority under emergency conditions where such authority is necessary and also a deep suspicion of the potential misuse of authority.

3) the modern (at least since '73, when I went in) US military teaches independent thinking.

4) military members can take advantage of GI Bill for college and house buying (that's p ...


So, I guess you indirectly addressed my stumbling block of exclusion for those incapable of making their own decisions by adding the qualifier that service means citizenship?
Not really. I said I was suspicious of it, but that the "if you are not a citizen you don't vote BUT don't pay taxes part" seemed very fair. Under those conditions, I agree that if a severely retarded person would then not be able to be a citizen and vote, etc.

But let me ask you: would you really want a severely retarded person with a mental age of two, who could not understand the issues, being able to vote? Seriously. Would you want a two year old voting?
 
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