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(MassLive)   Transgender student denied access to Smith College all because of one little box   (masslive.com) divider line 274
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14917 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 May 2013 at 1:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-03 12:06:37 PM  
What's in the box?!?!?!
 
2013-05-03 12:28:16 PM  
I wonder what would happen if all applications (jobs, schools, etc) were anonymous and stood on their own merits.  Like resumes were considered without names/identifying anything, applications, the same.  People were just accepted on their merits.

I suppose with jobs, you could suss out age and probably even guess gender based on duties and such, but it could be an interesting experiment that would end a lot of this kind of crap. I mean, does the college really care what someone is biologically? Does it, or should it, matter?
 
2013-05-03 12:30:56 PM  

serpent_sky: I wonder what would happen if all applications (jobs, schools, etc) were anonymous and stood on their own merits.  Like resumes were considered without names/identifying anything, applications, the same.  People were just accepted on their merits.

I suppose with jobs, you could suss out age and probably even guess gender based on duties and such, but it could be an interesting experiment that would end a lot of this kind of crap. I mean, does the college really care what someone is biologically? Does it, or should it, matter?


For an all girls college, yes it matters.

/Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.
 
2013-05-03 12:45:26 PM  

EvilEgg: /Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.


I dated one...true, but the sex needed to be like it read out of a trashy romance novel.
 
2013-05-03 01:06:47 PM  
Calliope Wong

Well, there's your problem.
 
2013-05-03 01:38:29 PM  
Disallowing trans-women seems just as arbitrary and discriminatory as disallowing men.  Folks who want the school to be more open should be advocating opening it to everybody, imho, or get off their equality high horse.


Also, TFA's use of pronouns confuses me.

They use the word "he" to refer to this person, who is a student at the female-only school:
"They are taking steps to be more accommodating," Ollie J. Schwartz, a 22-year-old Smith senior and member of the organization, said of the administration.
He and other students said the college has agreed


But then they use "she" to refer to this person, who was rejected on grounds of being too male:
In rejecting Wong, Smith cited the fact that Wong had checked "male" on her FAFSA form
 
2013-05-03 01:41:12 PM  

EvilEgg: For an all girls college, yes it matters.

/Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.


Somehow I missed the all girls college.  Why such places exist, I don't even know.  I went to a college that skewed almost all female. That was unpleasant to say the least, for someone who naturally gets along with guys better.  At least I was in NYC and not limited to some closed campus or anything annoying like that.
 
2013-05-03 01:42:21 PM  
Members of Smith Q&A spoke after five of them delivered more than 4,000 signatures seeking admissions policies that are welcoming and supportive of transgender women to Debra Shaver, the college's admissions director

Ironically, Debra Shaver does not Shaver anything

/or so I assume
 
2013-05-03 01:42:45 PM  
Oh, maybe Ollie Smith was born a "she" and became a "he"?  Would make TFA's pronouns consistent, but makes the school's admissions policy more absurd.  Men born in women's bodies are admitted, but men born in men's bodies aren't?
 
2013-05-03 01:43:02 PM  
To Calliope Wong. Thanks for everything,

Julie Newmar
 
2013-05-03 01:43:39 PM  

serpent_sky: I wonder what would happen if all applications (jobs, schools, etc) were anonymous and stood on their own merits.  Like resumes were considered without names/identifying anything, applications, the same.  People were just accepted on their merits.

I suppose with jobs, you could suss out age and probably even guess gender based on duties and such, but it could be an interesting experiment that would end a lot of this kind of crap. I mean, does the college really care what someone is biologically? Does it, or should it, matter?


Sure we can just trust them not to lie.
 
2013-05-03 01:44:36 PM  

Demetrius: EvilEgg: /Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.

I dated one...true, but the sex needed to be like it read out of a trashy romance novel.


My friend's daughter just chose Smith. I think I need to send him a link to this thread.

/'cuz I'm evil that way.
 
2013-05-03 01:45:19 PM  

Demetrius: EvilEgg: /Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.

I dated one...true, but the sex needed to be like it read out of a trashy romance novel.


Not that there is anything wrong with that...
 
2013-05-03 01:47:55 PM  

serpent_sky: I wonder what would happen if all applications (jobs, schools, etc) were anonymous and stood on their own merits.  Like resumes were considered without names/identifying anything, applications, the same.  People were just accepted on their merits.

I suppose with jobs, you could suss out age and probably even guess gender based on duties and such, but it could be an interesting experiment that would end a lot of this kind of crap. I mean, does the college really care what someone is biologically? Does it, or should it, matter?


You're saying that someone's emotional stability, ability to interact with others, deal with questions put forth to them, and manner of dressing and presenting themselves to the world are not components of merit?

What kind of dream world do you live in where everything about a person can be sussed out on a form?
 
2013-05-03 01:48:08 PM  
Smith College cock blocks Wong

/I must have been drinking when I submitted that headline...on 3-27
 
2013-05-03 01:48:58 PM  
So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.
 
2013-05-03 01:50:14 PM  

CrazyCracka420: So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.


why not?
 
2013-05-03 01:50:19 PM  
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-05-03 01:51:28 PM  

skullkrusher: CrazyCracka420: So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.

why not?


Because they have a wiener and it's an all girls college...seems kind of self explanatory
 
2013-05-03 01:53:37 PM  
This is quite the pickle. I support a private college to discriminate based on gender, but I also decry discriminating against someone who sees themselves as an opposite gender. I hope smith doesn't get it hard on this one, because this really is a head scratcher.
 
2013-05-03 01:53:47 PM  

CrazyCracka420: skullkrusher: CrazyCracka420: So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.

why not?

Because they have a wiener and it's an all girls college...seems kind of self explanatory



But they've had their wieners turned inside out and their testicles amputated.  So they're women.
 
2013-05-03 01:54:08 PM  

serpent_sky: I wonder what would happen if all applications (jobs, schools, etc) were anonymous and stood on their own merits.  Like resumes were considered without names/identifying anything, applications, the same.  People were just accepted on their merits.

I suppose with jobs, you could suss out age and probably even guess gender based on duties and such, but it could be an interesting experiment that would end a lot of this kind of crap. I mean, does the college really care what someone is biologically? Does it, or should it, matter?


In-person interviews might get a little tricky.

But yeah, I suggested that and heard some crazy conspiracy theories when I was in college and a big affirmative action debate was going on.
The school didn't do any sort of in-person admissions interviews, didn't even make you write essays.  Just a few multiple choice questions, high school transcripts, SAT and ACT scores.  People really wanted to believe the school was going to reject people based on their name being obviously "ethnic" or "urban".
When I suggested anonymizing the name and just using social security number or something, one of my classmates seriously attempted to argue that you could glean a general idea of somebody's place of birth and age from their SSN.  Ok fine, how about a randomly assigned GUID?
 
2013-05-03 01:54:19 PM  

CrazyCracka420: skullkrusher: CrazyCracka420: So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.

why not?

Because they have a wiener and it's an all girls college...seems kind of self explanatory


but if they dress and live as a female, what's the difference? I don't think Smith College is all women because they don't want to have penises on campus... well officially
 
2013-05-03 01:54:22 PM  

farkingismybusiness: What's in the box?!?!?!


www.usul.net

Pain.
 
2013-05-03 01:54:30 PM  

serpent_sky: I wonder what would happen if all applications (jobs, schools, etc) were anonymous and stood on their own merits.  Like resumes were considered without names/identifying anything, applications, the same.  People were just accepted on their merits.

I suppose with jobs, you could suss out age and probably even guess gender based on duties and such, but it could be an interesting experiment that would end a lot of this kind of crap. I mean, does the college really care what someone is biologically? Does it, or should it, matter?


it does because of the other programs going on, There are various rules that accrediting bodies look for in terms of student diversity based on gender, race, etc. Also it can affect various other things, the amount of information we track and report against is insane.
 
2013-05-03 01:55:03 PM  
www.neonpunch.com
 
2013-05-03 01:55:42 PM  
So trannies are OK but men are still not allowed? And they get federal money in top of that???????????? Sexism exists and this is it.
 
2013-05-03 01:57:54 PM  

serpent_sky: EvilEgg: For an all girls college, yes it matters.

/Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.

Somehow I missed the all girls college.  Why such places exist, I don't even know.  I went to a college that skewed almost all female. That was unpleasant to say the least, for someone who naturally gets along with guys better.  At least I was in NYC and not limited to some closed campus or anything annoying like that.


I once took a class on laws regarding education. There are lots of studies that show teenage boys tend to be much more agressive in classroom discussions, and as a result, female students get shutout of discussions and the learning experience. So a lot of people use those studies to bolster the case for same-sex classrooms. But as my professor pointed out, there are lots of studies which show that a good teacher can do simple things to counter that dynamic, such as waiting 10 seconds to call on someone (so whoever raises their hand first isn't rewarded -- which tend to be males), or calling on students who do not raise their hand (seems like a dick thing to do, but it pulls the non-hand raisers into the conversation leading to a better educational experience for them).
 
2013-05-03 01:58:07 PM  

farkingismybusiness: What's in the box?!?!?!


a train wreck, that's what
 
2013-05-03 01:58:47 PM  

Thisbymaster: So trannies are OK but men are still not allowed? And they get federal money in top of that???????????? Sexism exists and this is it.


oh stop
 
2013-05-03 01:59:47 PM  

skullkrusher: CrazyCracka420: skullkrusher: CrazyCracka420: So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.

why not?

Because they have a wiener and it's an all girls college...seems kind of self explanatory

but if they dress and live as a female, what's the difference? I don't think Smith College is all women because they don't want to have penises on campus... well officially


DNA testing would solve this.
 
2013-05-03 02:00:24 PM  

serial_crusher: serpent_sky: I wonder what would happen if all applications (jobs, schools, etc) were anonymous and stood on their own merits.  Like resumes were considered without names/identifying anything, applications, the same.  People were just accepted on their merits.

I suppose with jobs, you could suss out age and probably even guess gender based on duties and such, but it could be an interesting experiment that would end a lot of this kind of crap. I mean, does the college really care what someone is biologically? Does it, or should it, matter?

In-person interviews might get a little tricky.

But yeah, I suggested that and heard some crazy conspiracy theories when I was in college and a big affirmative action debate was going on.
The school didn't do any sort of in-person admissions interviews, didn't even make you write essays.  Just a few multiple choice questions, high school transcripts, SAT and ACT scores.  People really wanted to believe the school was going to reject people based on their name being obviously "ethnic" or "urban".
When I suggested anonymizing the name and just using social security number or something, one of my classmates seriously attempted to argue that you could glean a general idea of somebody's place of birth and age from their SSN.  Ok fine, how about a randomly assigned GUID?


if the scores are right, you are more likely to get in being in the minority depending on the school and what your major is. Engineering Colleges are always wanting to get in more women and various minorities. Also, schools that receive government funding are required to ask those questions.
 
2013-05-03 02:00:45 PM  
Sounds like there's a bit of a pickle in that box.
 
2013-05-03 02:00:53 PM  

serpent_sky: EvilEgg: For an all girls college, yes it matters.

/Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.

Somehow I missed the all girls college.  Why such places exist, I don't even know.  I went to a college that skewed almost all female. That was unpleasant to say the least, for someone who naturally gets along with guys better.  At least I was in NYC and not limited to some closed campus or anything annoying like that.


Mrs. Samurai went to an all-girls college.  She said it was strange but refreshing to see girls not have to worry about how they looked for class.

FWIW, that college went co-ed this year, and before Thanksgiving break they had an incident of a male student exposing themselves to female students.
 
2013-05-03 02:01:02 PM  

lockers: This is quite the pickle. I support a private college to discriminate based on gender, but I also decry discriminating against someone who sees themselves as an opposite gender. I hope smith doesn't get it hard on this one, because this really is a head scratcher.


This is pretty much the risk you run by having a same-sex school. Even if the law ultimately protects them in this and other cases, it's still going to be a continuing public relations nightmare.
 
2013-05-03 02:02:12 PM  
I like Northampton.  It has a good music scene.
 
2013-05-03 02:02:49 PM  
I've never understood why people want to be part of something that doesn't want them.
 
2013-05-03 02:03:18 PM  
Applicant checked the wong box.
 
2013-05-03 02:05:27 PM  
Do you have a Y chromosome? Yes? Than you're not a woman.
 
2013-05-03 02:05:32 PM  

thornhill: lockers: This is quite the pickle. I support a private college to discriminate based on gender, but I also decry discriminating against someone who sees themselves as an opposite gender. I hope smith doesn't get it hard on this one, because this really is a head scratcher.

This is pretty much the risk you run by having a same-sex school. Even if the law ultimately protects them in this and other cases, it's still going to be a continuing public relations nightmare.


Good. I'm tired of this "discrimination is bad unless it is the good kind of discrimination" bullshiat. A "women only" private college should get just as much bad press as a "whites only" private prom.
 
2013-05-03 02:05:40 PM  
Claire is gonna be pleased.
 
2013-05-03 02:06:35 PM  
Calliope said on the application forms that he identifies as male ... but wants to go to an all-female college. What happened to respect for people's right to choose their own gender identity?
 
2013-05-03 02:06:48 PM  

CrazyCracka420: So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.


If you define someone's sex by what sexual organs they have, you just don't understand.

/at least that's what some here on FARK would have you believe
//I'm old fashioned - penis = male, vagina = female AFAIC
 
2013-05-03 02:07:10 PM  

Thisbymaster: So trannies are OK but men are still not allowed? And they get federal money in top of that???????????? Sexism exists and this is it.


Huh?


Smith College is a private, independent women's liberal arts college located in Northampton, Massachusetts, United States.

The students get federal money not the school. Our are you trying to say anyone who gets indirect federal money is the same as getting as direct federal money?
 
2013-05-03 02:09:22 PM  
I'm a boy, I'm a boy but my Ma won't admit it
img2-2.timeinc.net
I'm a boy - I'm a boy but if I say I am I get it
 
2013-05-03 02:09:22 PM  
They're called transgender, not trannies. Jeebus, you might as well go up to their face and call them a shemale.
 
2013-05-03 02:10:37 PM  
So do they accept pre-ops or post-ops? What if the pre-op decides that he doesn't want to go through with it and will spend the rest of his life as a man, is he kicked out?

What about a pre-op woman who wants to be a man?

What about Fallone Fox?
 
2013-05-03 02:10:57 PM  
divaliciousgifts.com
 
2013-05-03 02:11:08 PM  

serpent_sky: EvilEgg: For an all girls college, yes it matters.

/Smith girls are great, the ones that aren't gay are really horny.

Somehow I missed the all girls college.  Why such places exist, I don't even know.  I went to a college that skewed almost all female. That was unpleasant to say the least, for someone who naturally gets along with guys better.  At least I was in NYC and not limited to some closed campus or anything annoying like that.


if there wasn't a demand for such schools they wouldn't exist. same for schools that cater to specific religious beliefs, ethnic backgrounds, minority based etcetera. i think maybe when mom/dad are footing the bill the student has limited choices.
 
2013-05-03 02:11:08 PM  

GanjSmokr: CrazyCracka420: So I'm gathering from the article, it's a person born with female parts, but identifies as a man?  Would be a lot easier to follow if they just said if the person has a penis or not.

If they have a vagina, they should be allowed to attend...if they are a man who identifies as a woman, than not so much.

If you define someone's sex by what sexual organs they have, you just don't understand.

/at least that's what some here on FARK would have you believe
//I'm old fashioned - penis = male, vagina = female AFAIC


To me, your sex is what parts you have.  Gender is what you identify yourself as.
 
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