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(Breitbart.com)   Breitbart furious that the Obama administration may deem it treasonous for Muslim soldiers to promote their faith to Christian soldiers   (breitbart.com) divider line 97
    More: Asinine, obama, Andrew Breitbart, Muslim soldiers, court martial, Obama administration, Mikey Weinstein, Military Religious Freedom Foundation, non-judicial punishment  
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2364 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 May 2013 at 11:01 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-02 08:48:22 AM
Brietbart: "mews" for the reality challenged.

FTA: "

Religious proselytization is not permitted within the Department of Defense...Court martials and non-judicial punishments are decided on a case-by-case basis"awww, poor whiny Christians are upset that they will be treated the same as every other religion. Insert grumpy cat graphic with "GOOD" caption here.
 
2013-05-02 08:57:50 AM

Lurking Fear: Brietbart: "mews" for the reality challenged.

FTA: "

Religious proselytization is not permitted within the Department of Defense...Court martials and non-judicial punishments are decided on a case-by-case basis"awww, poor whiny Christians are upset that they will be treated the same as every other religion. Insert grumpy cat graphic with "GOOD" caption here.


I'd like to hear a follow-up report soon on how they've cleaned up the USAFA.  That place became infested to the point where we needed to shut it down and open a new academy somewhere far away from the zealots.
 
2013-05-02 09:31:49 AM
Pentagon:   "Religious proselytization is not permitted within the Department of Defense"
Breitbart:   "...court-martial procedures to punish Christians in the military who express or share their faith"

(stress mine)

Am I the only one who sees a huge difference in definition of terms here?
 
2013-05-02 09:35:42 AM

Radak: Am I the only one who sees a huge difference in definition of terms here?


You aren't, but I'm curious as to what the DoD's definition of proselytize is.
 
2013-05-02 09:37:58 AM
If Breitbart's furious about anything right now, I would assume it's being locked in a coffin six feet underground.
 
2013-05-02 09:38:06 AM

exick: Radak: Am I the only one who sees a huge difference in definition of terms here?

You aren't, but I'm curious as to what the DoD's definition of proselytize is.


Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it.  You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.
 
2013-05-02 09:43:44 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: exick: Radak: Am I the only one who sees a huge difference in definition of terms here?

You aren't, but I'm curious as to what the DoD's definition of proselytize is.

Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it.  You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.


Does every religion get a position though? I've always assumed the chaplain was pretty firmly in the Christian category, unless they changed it to be about all faiths (doubtful though).

Either have a representative for all faiths, or no representatives at all. That's what these morons at the FRC and Breitbart news don't want to hear. Their feeling is if you're not 110% for Christianity, you're 110% anti-Christian.
 
2013-05-02 10:01:30 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it. You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.


And that to me is an understandable position. There seems to be more to it than that, though. It would be nice if there was a way to shut off the white noise of the debate ("proselytizing is akin to rape" vs. "the military is court martialing Christians") and figure out what's really happening.

scottydoesntknow: Does every religion get a position though? I've always assumed the chaplain was pretty firmly in the Christian category, unless they changed it to be about all faiths (doubtful though).


Chaplains are typically Christian simply because that's how the numbers play out. However, there are chaplains of other faiths and a small percentage who have none at all. Chaplains are supposed to be able to counsel service members regardless of whether they share a faith, however. It's one thing for a chaplain to share his or her faith with someone in the hopes that it might be helpful if that person is struggling. It's another to browbeat them with a religious text. Chaplains jobs involve counseling, comforting and morale, not promoting their particular flavor of dogma. And if you aren't a chaplain and you're preaching at your subordinates because they have to listen, then you're just a dick.
 
2013-05-02 10:01:41 AM

scottydoesntknow: Does every religion get a position though? I've always assumed the chaplain was pretty firmly in the Christian category, unless they changed it to be about all faiths (doubtful though).


The chaplains that attend my dad's synagogue are either playing a VERY long con with someone, or they're not Christian.

The Christian chaplains may outnumber others like 3:1 (I don't have numbers), but there most definitely are chaplains of every recognized faith. I'm even fairly certain they have to know (at least some of) the last rites of every faith just in case they need to perform them on the battlefield.
 
2013-05-02 10:03:53 AM
livingincinema.com

Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Jesus...
 
2013-05-02 10:20:48 AM

exick: scottydoesntknow: Does every religion get a position though? I've always assumed the chaplain was pretty firmly in the Christian category, unless they changed it to be about all faiths (doubtful though).

Chaplains are typically Christian simply because that's how the numbers play out. However, there are chaplains of other faiths and a small percentage who have none at all. Chaplains are supposed to be able to counsel service members regardless of whether they share a faith, however. It's one thing for a chaplain to share his or her faith with someone in the hopes that it might be helpful if that person is struggling. It's another to browbeat them with a religious text. Chaplains jobs involve counseling, comforting and morale, not promoting their particular flavor of dogma. And if you aren't a chaplain and you're preaching at your subordinates because they have to listen, then you're just a dick.


Agree completely, and thanks for answering (you too Dr Dreidel).
 
2013-05-02 10:25:38 AM

scottydoesntknow: Agree completely, and thanks for answering (you too Dr Dreidel).


So now Scotty knows?
 
2013-05-02 10:26:42 AM

show me: scottydoesntknow: Agree completely, and thanks for answering (you too Dr Dreidel).

So now Scotty knows?


At least it didn't take a song being sung by Matt Damon for me to realize it this time.
 
2013-05-02 10:32:14 AM

Nabb1: If Breitbart's furious about anything right now, I would assume it's being locked in a coffin six feet underground.


Too soon! TOO SOON!!!!
 
2013-05-02 10:33:35 AM

Hey, kids, let's play a game!!  See you can spot all the clues in the opening sentence that indicate what's to follow is complete bullshiat!


The statement, released to Fox News, follows a Breitbart News report on Obama administration Pentagon appointees meeting with anti-Christian extremist Mikey Weinstein to develop court-martial procedures to punish Christians in the military who express or share their faith.

Did you get them all? If you found at least five, you're well on your way to not being a fkn moran!
 
2013-05-02 10:34:01 AM

exick: God Is My Co-Pirate: Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it. You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.

And that to me is an understandable position. There seems to be more to it than that, though. It would be nice if there was a way to shut off the white noise of the debate ("proselytizing is akin to rape" vs. "the military is court martialing Christians") and figure out what's really happening.

scottydoesntknow: Does every religion get a position though? I've always assumed the chaplain was pretty firmly in the Christian category, unless they changed it to be about all faiths (doubtful though).

Chaplains are typically Christian simply because that's how the numbers play out. However, there are chaplains of other faiths and a small percentage who have none at all. Chaplains are supposed to be able to counsel service members regardless of whether they share a faith, however. It's one thing for a chaplain to share his or her faith with someone in the hopes that it might be helpful if that person is struggling. It's another to browbeat them with a religious text. Chaplains jobs involve counseling, comforting and morale, not promoting their particular flavor of dogma. And if you aren't a chaplain and you're preaching at your subordinates because they have to listen, then you're just a dick.


All very reasonable.  I don't want officers forcing their views upon subordinates, nor do I think it appropriate for any soldiers in the field to think they need to start converting the civilian population.  But I don't think I would want anyone who considers Christianity treason or any other such nonsense involved in creating policy anymore than I would want some fundamentalist pastor who believed it was ever soldiers holy duty to convert the heathens.
 
2013-05-02 10:34:47 AM

Hetfield: Nabb1: If Breitbart's furious about anything right now, I would assume it's being locked in a coffin six feet underground.

Too soon! TOO SOON!!!!


What do you mean "too soon"?  He's got to be almost out of air by now.
 
2013-05-02 10:46:55 AM
What a shiatty headline that has nothing to do with realty
 
2013-05-02 10:50:40 AM

Tatsuma: What a shiatty headline that has nothing to do with realty


To be fair, the article has nothing to do with realty either.
 
2013-05-02 10:54:58 AM

Nabb1: Hetfield: Nabb1: If Breitbart's furious about anything right now, I would assume it's being locked in a coffin six feet underground.

Too soon! TOO SOON!!!!

What do you mean "too soon"?  He's got to be almost out of air by now.


The primary issue with Breitbart being dead is that it didn't happen soon enough.
 
2013-05-02 10:55:50 AM

Tatsuma: What a shiatty headline that has nothing to do with realty


How about this one:

"Disappointing new home sales have agents on edge"
 
2013-05-02 11:05:01 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.


Lol but that shiat happens all the time.
 
2013-05-02 11:06:43 AM
It doesn't matter what your religion is. Your job as a soldier is to fight and die, not proselytize.
 
2013-05-02 11:07:56 AM

scottydoesntknow: Does every religion get a position though? I've always assumed the chaplain was pretty firmly in the Christian category, unless they changed it to be about all faiths (doubtful though).


Chaplains can be of any faith.  However, they're also supposed to be counselors for members regardless and apart from religion.

You got some emotional problem?  Having trouble with the missus?  You need some problem reported but need confidentiality because you don't want your named attached?  Got raped?  In any of these cases you should be able to go to any chaplain and have him take care of that problem without bringing Jesus, Jehovah, Mohammad or Druidism into it.

Yes, they're preachers.  But they swear an oath to be soldiers and officers first.
 
2013-05-02 11:08:28 AM

UNC_Samurai: I'd like to hear a follow-up report soon on how they've cleaned up the USAFA.  That place became infested to the point where we needed to shut it down and open a new academy somewhere far away from the zealots.


Yeah, what's going on with that?
 
2013-05-02 11:08:29 AM

exick: Chaplains are supposed to be able to counsel service members regardless of whether they share a faith, however.


Bingo. On larger bases/forts/installations, each major religion has their own specialized Chaplain, but when it comes down it, they will cater to any recognized religion, even those crazy Wiccans!

/I keed
//they're just as crazy as everyone else
 
2013-05-02 11:08:30 AM

scottydoesntknow: God Is My Co-Pirate: exick: Radak: Am I the only one who sees a huge difference in definition of terms here?

You aren't, but I'm curious as to what the DoD's definition of proselytize is.

Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it.  You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.

Does every religion get a position though? I've always assumed the chaplain was pretty firmly in the Christian category, unless they changed it to be about all faiths (doubtful though).

Either have a representative for all faiths, or no representatives at all. That's what these morons at the FRC and Breitbart news don't want to hear. Their feeling is if you're not 110% for Christianity, you're 110% anti-Christian.


They have chaplains of all faiths, but completely out of porportion to the military's religious demographics.

Islamic, Catholic, and Jewish chaplians are under-represented, and there's something like three times as many Evangelical / Southern Baptist chaplains as there are Evangelical troops, porpotionately.

/Half-remembering a pie chart I saw awhile back.
 
2013-05-02 11:08:45 AM
Didn't we just have a 300-post-long thread on this exact topic yesterday?
 
2013-05-02 11:10:16 AM

Sybarite: [livingincinema.com image 570x320]

Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Jesus...


In fairness, he only made them sing happy birthday.
 
2013-05-02 11:12:53 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Sybarite: [livingincinema.com image 570x320]

Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Jesus...

In fairness, he only made them sing happy birthday.


He also ordered them to make the latrine sufficiently sanitary to receive a bowel movement from the Mother of God.

...or words to that effect
 
2013-05-02 11:14:31 AM

Lionel Mandrake: DROxINxTHExWIND: Sybarite: [livingincinema.com image 570x320]

Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Jesus...

In fairness, he only made them sing happy birthday.

He also ordered them to make the latrine sufficiently sanitary to receive a bowel movement from the Mother of God.

...or words to that effect


I wouldn't want to shiat anywhere that Mary wouldn't take a dump. I think I have a public restroom phobia. Again, I see his point.
 
2013-05-02 11:16:56 AM

Nabb1: But I don't think I would want anyone who considers Christianity treason or any other such nonsense involved in creating policy anymore than I would want some fundamentalist pastor who believed it was ever soldiers holy duty to convert the heathens.


Since Breitbart reported this, there is a 100% chance that the guy you refer to does not consider Christianity treason, is not anti-christian, and is not an 'extremist.'
 
2013-05-02 11:19:50 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Lionel Mandrake: DROxINxTHExWIND: Sybarite: [livingincinema.com image 570x320]

Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Jesus...

In fairness, he only made them sing happy birthday.

He also ordered them to make the latrine sufficiently sanitary to receive a bowel movement from the Mother of God.

...or words to that effect

I wouldn't want to shiat anywhere that Mary wouldn't take a dump. I think I have a public restroom phobia. Again, I see his point.


But would you shiat where Mary HAD taken a dump? Or would you require it to be cleaned again to her specifications?
 
2013-05-02 11:23:39 AM
As we approach my holiest day of the year I find your quaint notions of religion fanciful.

/Jedi
 
2013-05-02 11:25:44 AM

Sgt Otter: Islamic, Catholic, and Jewish chaplians are under-represented, and there's something like three times as many Evangelical / Southern Baptist chaplains as there are Evangelical troops, porpotionately.

/Half-remembering a pie chart I saw awhile back.


I would guess that evangelicals are a little more needy in the praying-with-a-friend department.
 
2013-05-02 11:26:31 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Lionel Mandrake: DROxINxTHExWIND: Sybarite: [livingincinema.com image 570x320]

Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Jesus...

In fairness, he only made them sing happy birthday.

He also ordered them to make the latrine sufficiently sanitary to receive a bowel movement from the Mother of God.

...or words to that effect

I wouldn't want to shiat anywhere that Mary wouldn't take a dump. I think I have a public restroom phobia. Again, I see his point.


Mary birthed her firstborn in an animal pen.  I'm pretty sure she'd be down for dropping a deuce at McDonalds.
 
2013-05-02 11:27:16 AM

wildcardjack: As we approach my holiest day of the year I find your quaint notions of religion fanciful.

/Jedi


You were clearly created in his image

i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-02 11:28:29 AM
 
2013-05-02 11:33:28 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it. You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.


I agree and have an honest question regarding this... do chaplains have rank?  Do they operate in a separate structure or something?
 
2013-05-02 11:36:37 AM

Clownhall AND Breitbart?



3.bp.blogspot.com

Looks like Derp is back on the menu, boys.
 
2013-05-02 11:44:59 AM
Somoeone fwd fwd fwd this to my wife last night.  She read it aloud and when she stated the word "treason" I told her to just stop reading.  The person that is writing this has their hyperbole control cranked to 11 and not to be listened to.  All information is void.
 
2013-05-02 11:45:18 AM

ProdigalSigh: God Is My Co-Pirate: Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it. You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.

I agree and have an honest question regarding this... do chaplains have rank?  Do they operate in a separate structure or something?


They are all commissioned officers.  They do have sort of their own command structure (sort of like JAG lawyers), but a Chaplain who is a Captain, must be given the same customs and courtesies as a Infantry Captain.

He's wearing Captain's bars on his chest, but he has the Christian cross on his cap (instead of another set of Captain's bars, which a standard Army officer would wear).

latimesblogs.latimes.com
 
2013-05-02 11:45:56 AM

ProdigalSigh: God Is My Co-Pirate: Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it. You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.

I agree and have an honest question regarding this... do chaplains have rank?  Do they operate in a separate structure or something?


There was a whole M*A*S*H episode dedicated to Fr. Mulcahy trying to get promoted from 1st Lieutenant to Captain.
 
2013-05-02 11:58:19 AM

UNC_Samurai: Lurking Fear: Brietbart: "mews" for the reality challenged.

FTA: "

Religious proselytization is not permitted within the Department of Defense...Court martials and non-judicial punishments are decided on a case-by-case basis"awww, poor whiny Christians are upset that they will be treated the same as every other religion. Insert grumpy cat graphic with "GOOD" caption here.

I'd like to hear a follow-up report soon on how they've cleaned up the USAFA.  That place became infested to the point where we needed to shut it down and open a new academy somewhere far away from the zealots.


I have to say I was a little surprised at the chapel there.

www.usafa.af.mil
 
2013-05-02 12:01:09 PM
I love how most right wing political Christians who whine about being oppressed would never sympathize if the same thing happened to someone of a different faith.

I mean, it's crazy to me that they truly believe that we should do away with the establishment clause and have a theocratic government.  Especially while at the same time they'll point to muslim theocracies as oppressive hell holes that hate freedom and liberty. It's amazing to me that they don't realize how much their thought process has in common with groups like the taliban - the biggest difference is, they have a cross instead of a crescent.
 
2013-05-02 12:01:28 PM
Not that it's relevant, but my experience with Chaplains in the military was not a pleasant one. I was having some issues, and when I went to the Chaplain for advice and counseling, the only thing I got was "Have you tried Jesus?" Not a word about my problems, or even an attempt to talk it out. Just "You should turn to Jesus."

That said, nobody ever tried to convert me (except that chaplain), and nobody ever forced me to go to any services or listen to any preachy nonsense. Boot camp doesn't count, because even the most athy of atheists will go to a Sunday service to get a 2 hour nap vs scrubbing floors.
 
2013-05-02 12:02:40 PM
Bar Mitzva 2: Army Boogaloo

uploads.static.vosizneias.com
 
2013-05-02 12:07:53 PM
There is weapons grade DERP in the comments section. All the way to potato.
 
2013-05-02 12:12:43 PM
Backward crap fades into the past? Well that's never happen before, nope never!
 
2013-05-02 12:14:52 PM

God Is My Co-Pirate: exick: Radak: Am I the only one who sees a huge difference in definition of terms here?

You aren't, but I'm curious as to what the DoD's definition of proselytize is.

Not an expert by any means, but I believe rank comes into it.  You can be a chaplain, and people are welcome to go to you for spiritual counselling, but you can't, say, be a major and force all your subordinates to listen to you preach.



It's a workplace. Whether it be on a carrier, at a checkpoint in the desert or at Fort Bragg - it's a workplace. If what you are doing is not helping with the job at hand, or worse yet disrupting the job at hand (creating discord among the staff) it's got to stop.
 
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