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(Talking Points Memo)   ♫You say you want a revolution. Well, you know, we all want a living wage.♫   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 45
    More: Interesting, May Day, water cannons, petrol bombs, Social Democratic Party  
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1714 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 May 2013 at 9:18 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-02 07:19:39 AM  
I have always felt that this generation of young people are the revolutionaries that will reshape the world, to repent for the sins of their fathers.

Also, we could probably have another communist/socialist revolution globally if we rebranded it and no worker would object to such a thing. See what you've done corporations? All we wanted was a living wage and to be treated with dignity and a sense of purpose. A worker's rebellion is on the brink and all you care about is your severance package. What about our livelihoods? If you took a few minutes to think about how your greed is screwing over your workers, you would not have this situation in the world.
 
2013-05-02 08:07:40 AM  
Turkey? Figures. Maybe America will wake up at some point.
 
2013-05-02 08:14:47 AM  

Cythraul: Turkey? Figures. Maybe America will wake up at some point.


not just Turkey, it apparently was all over the Europe
 
2013-05-02 09:23:49 AM  
Not in Amurika we don't...fair pay and wage equality is soshulizms, and don't you ferget it.
 
2013-05-02 09:24:42 AM  
pbs.twimg.com
 
2013-05-02 09:25:25 AM  

somedude210: I have always felt that this generation of young people are the revolutionaries that will reshape the world, to repent for the sins of their fathers.

Also, we could probably have another communist/socialist revolution globally if we rebranded it and no worker would object to such a thing. See what you've done corporations? All we wanted was a living wage and to be treated with dignity and a sense of purpose. A worker's rebellion is on the brink and all you care about is your severance package. What about our livelihoods? If you took a few minutes to think about how your greed is screwing over your workers, you would not have this situation in the world.


While I agree with the greater statement of the youth repenting for the sins of their fathers, the vision of a corporation that you have is highly anthropomorphized.

Corporations are not evil.  The laws that say that a corporation has ONLY ONE responsible party (the shareholder) versus Europe where the workers and customers are also legally part of the 'stakeholders' of a corporation.  The United States has always had a problem with treating their lowest people terribly (see slaves, Chinese, Irish, Mexicans, etc.).

We need to change how we do business.
We need an end to crony capitalism.
 
2013-05-02 09:26:18 AM  
It's really nobody's business but the Turks.
 
2013-05-02 09:26:51 AM  
The same companies that lobby to keep our minimum wage at poverty levels are the ones that knowingly jeopardize the lives of people in 3rd world countries just to make more money.
 
2013-05-02 09:27:08 AM  

somedude210: Also, we could probably have another communist/socialist revolution globally if we rebranded it and no worker would object to such a thing.


somedude210: not just Turkey, it apparently was all over the Europe


If it happens, it'll be raging from Istanbul to Belfast before Americans hear it on the news.
 
2013-05-02 09:27:25 AM  
Why, that dying wage not working out for you?
 
2013-05-02 09:30:01 AM  

NostroZ: The laws that say that a corporation has ONLY ONE responsible party (the shareholder)


Actually the law says no such thing.
 
2013-05-02 09:34:10 AM  

NostroZ: somedude210: I have always felt that this generation of young people are the revolutionaries that will reshape the world, to repent for the sins of their fathers.

Also, we could probably have another communist/socialist revolution globally if we rebranded it and no worker would object to such a thing. See what you've done corporations? All we wanted was a living wage and to be treated with dignity and a sense of purpose. A worker's rebellion is on the brink and all you care about is your severance package. What about our livelihoods? If you took a few minutes to think about how your greed is screwing over your workers, you would not have this situation in the world.

While I agree with the greater statement of the youth repenting for the sins of their fathers, the vision of a corporation that you have is highly anthropomorphized.

Corporations are not evil.  The laws that say that a corporation has ONLY ONE responsible party (the shareholder) versus Europe where the workers and customers are also legally part of the 'stakeholders' of a corporation.  The United States has always had a problem with treating their lowest people terribly (see slaves, Chinese, Irish, Mexicans, etc.).

We need to change how we do business.
We need an end to crony capitalism.


Capitalism is a great idea because it puts the responsibility of success on the individual, but like everything else, it needs moderation.  I don't want to force employers to pay their employees more money.  I want to levy additional taxes based on how many employees they have below the poverty line, and by how much they're below.  I want to make it more painful to not pay your employees a livable wage.  I'm tired of our government, and my tax dollars, having to subsidize basic necessities because businesses won't (not can't) pay their employees better.
 
2013-05-02 09:56:07 AM  
Capitalism is a great idea because it puts the responsibility of success on the individual, but like everything else, it needs moderation.  I don't want to force employers to pay their employees more money.  I want to levy additional taxes based on how many employees they have below the poverty line, and by how much they're below.  I want to make it more painful to not pay your employees a livable wage.  I'm tired of our government, and my tax dollars, having to subsidize basic necessities because businesses won't (not can't) pay their employees better.

Newsletter?
 
2013-05-02 10:04:51 AM  

Tomahawk513: Capitalism is a great idea because it puts the responsibility of success on the individual, but like everything else, it needs moderation. I don't want to force employers to pay their employees more money. I want to levy additional taxes based on how many employees they have below the poverty line, and by how much they're below. I want to make it more painful to not pay your employees a livable wage. I'm tired of our government, and my tax dollars, having to subsidize basic necessities because businesses won't (not can't) pay their employees better.


The very nature of capitalism is exploiting labor.  Using the state to make it "more painful not to pay employees a living wage" is a form of socialism.

Here's your newsletter:

cdn.uberreview.com
 
2013-05-02 10:22:27 AM  

Tomahawk513: Capitalism is a great idea because it puts the responsibility of success on the individual, but like everything else, it needs moderation.  I don't want to force employers to pay their employees more money.  I want to levy additional taxes based on how many employees they have below the poverty line, and by how much they're below.  I want to make it more painful to not pay your employees a livable wage.  I'm tired of our government, and my tax dollars, having to subsidize basic necessities because businesses won't (not can't) pay their employees better.


Well put.  When companies don't care for their employees (health for example) they are requiring society to subsidize their production cost.
 
2013-05-02 11:00:48 AM  
Capitalism isn't a great idea it's just the better in a group of crappy ideas. And as it functions in America, it is clearly broken.
 
2013-05-02 11:19:03 AM  

FarkedOver: Tomahawk513: Capitalism is a great idea because it puts the responsibility of success on the individual, but like everything else, it needs moderation. I don't want to force employers to pay their employees more money. I want to levy additional taxes based on how many employees they have below the poverty line, and by how much they're below. I want to make it more painful to not pay your employees a livable wage. I'm tired of our government, and my tax dollars, having to subsidize basic necessities because businesses won't (not can't) pay their employees better.

The very nature of capitalism is exploiting labor.  Using the state to make it "more painful not to pay employees a living wage" is a form of socialism.

Here's your newsletter:

[cdn.uberreview.com image 384x384]


What Marx advocated was a complete abolishment, not mitigation. Mitigation is not socialism, either.
 
2013-05-02 11:20:12 AM  

NostroZ: Corporations are not evil. The laws that say that a corporation has ONLY ONE responsible party (the shareholder) versus Europe where the workers and customers are also legally part of the 'stakeholders' of a corporation. The United States has always had a problem with treating their lowest people terribly (see slaves, Chinese, Irish, Mexicans, etc.).

We need to change how we do business.
We need an end to crony capitalism.


Corporations may not be inherently evil, but the people that make the decisions, from the board to the CEOs care about profits and profits only, not whether they actually treat their employees with any sense of dignity and humanity.

Hell, look at the collapse of the factory in Bangladesh from the other week. The corporations that get the clothing from there set up soooooooooo many failsafes to deny any knowledge of any wrongdoing that they can get away with 300 counts of unintentional manslaughter because they aren't willing to go the extra mile and use local workers in a safe facility.

Money is all well in good, but when as humans did we decide that our personal wealth mattered more than the happiness in our lives and the progress of society as a whole
 
2013-05-02 11:23:14 AM  

somedude210: NostroZ: Corporations are not evil. The laws that say that a corporation has ONLY ONE responsible party (the shareholder) versus Europe where the workers and customers are also legally part of the 'stakeholders' of a corporation. The United States has always had a problem with treating their lowest people terribly (see slaves, Chinese, Irish, Mexicans, etc.).

We need to change how we do business.
We need an end to crony capitalism.

Corporations may not be inherently evil, but the people that make the decisions, from the board to the CEOs care about profits and profits only, not whether they actually treat their employees with any sense of dignity and humanity.

Hell, look at the collapse of the factory in Bangladesh from the other week. The corporations that get the clothing from there set up soooooooooo many failsafes to deny any knowledge of any wrongdoing that they can get away with 300 counts of unintentional manslaughter because they aren't willing to go the extra mile and use local workers in a safe facility.

Money is all well in good, but when as humans did we decide that our personal wealth mattered more than the happiness in our lives and the progress of society as a whole


Wal*Mart's mouthpiece just about admitted that you can't make money if you force overseas factories to comply with western safety regulations. But I guess the government is too busy going after a college kid smoking a bowl to make sure corporations don't kill a few hundred people at a time.
 
2013-05-02 11:23:47 AM  

vygramul: What Marx advocated was a complete abolishment, not mitigation. Mitigation is not socialism, either.


Not in Kapital.... it was a critique of capitalism.  It was pretty much spot on. Marx also recognized that capitalism was a necessary precursor to an eventual socialist government.
 
2013-05-02 11:36:09 AM  

FarkedOver: vygramul: What Marx advocated was a complete abolishment, not mitigation. Mitigation is not socialism, either.

Not in Kapital.... it was a critique of capitalism.  It was pretty much spot on. Marx also recognized that capitalism was a necessary precursor to an eventual socialist government.


Kapital was great at pointing out everything that was wrong with 19th century mainstream economics, but it's still completely wrong, even though it makes some fun and attractive points about production. And he didn't see capitalism as a precursor to socialist government but communist government, which are two very different things. Socialism is a form of capitalism. It's a restricted form of capitalism, but it's still capitalism. Communism transcends [aufheben] capitalism.
 
2013-05-02 11:38:19 AM  
You want a living wage? You want a living wage! Then you should support us in our campaign to kill 80% of the Chinese and Indian populations. Whenever I hear about a new bird flu strain coming out of China I root for a high body count in the billions.

The only way to revalue labor in the 21st century is to eliminate most of it.
 
2013-05-02 11:40:00 AM  

somedude210: I have always felt that this generation of young people are the revolutionaries that will reshape the world, to repent for the sins of their fathers.

Also, we could probably have another communist/socialist revolution globally if we rebranded it and no worker would object to such a thing. See what you've done corporations? All we wanted was a living wage and to be treated with dignity and a sense of purpose. A worker's rebellion is on the brink and all you care about is your severance package. What about our livelihoods? If you took a few minutes to think about how your greed is screwing over your workers, you would not have this situation in the world.


Meh, 3D printing and robots makes labor obsolete anyway. The only reason we employ you is that you are cheaper then a robot.
 
2013-05-02 11:41:19 AM  

neversubmit: Why, that dying wage not working out for you?


Well after my transition to lich, thanks Dick Clark, the undead wage is wonderful.
 
2013-05-02 11:45:39 AM  

Slaves2Darkness: somedude210: I have always felt that this generation of young people are the revolutionaries that will reshape the world, to repent for the sins of their fathers.

Also, we could probably have another communist/socialist revolution globally if we rebranded it and no worker would object to such a thing. See what you've done corporations? All we wanted was a living wage and to be treated with dignity and a sense of purpose. A worker's rebellion is on the brink and all you care about is your severance package. What about our livelihoods? If you took a few minutes to think about how your greed is screwing over your workers, you would not have this situation in the world.

Meh, 3D printing and robots makes labor obsolete anyway. The only reason we employ you is that you are cheaper then a robot.


So a higher minimum wage encourages innovation and technology, which increases GDP. OMG! Raising the minimum wage is supply-side!
 
2013-05-02 11:55:38 AM  

vygramul: Kapital was great at pointing out everything that was wrong with 19th century mainstream economics, but it's still completely wrong, even though it makes some fun and attractive points about production. And he didn't see capitalism as a precursor to socialist government but communist government, which are two very different things. Socialism is a form of capitalism. It's a restricted form of capitalism, but it's still capitalism. Communism transcends [aufheben] capitalism.


Marx pointing out the woes of the industrial era can still be applied to today's modern economies.

I'm pretty sure Marx wouldn't advocate jumping from capitalism right into communism.  The dictatorship of the proletariat and all that...
 
2013-05-02 11:57:53 AM  
The "living wage" also known as a major peg of the "consequence free lifestyle".
 
2013-05-02 12:04:59 PM  

randomjsa: The "living wage" also known as a major peg of the "consequence free lifestyle".


No, a living wage is a wage that is ample enough to survive on something more than poptarts and the box it came in. We are the most advanced civilization in the world, how is it that we can be that and still insist that those who work 3 jobs shouldn't get some assistance
 
2013-05-02 12:06:50 PM  

somedude210: We are the most advanced civilization in the world


It's high time we started acting like it. :)
 
2013-05-02 12:11:58 PM  

mrshowrules: Tomahawk513: Capitalism is a great idea because it puts the responsibility of success on the individual, but like everything else, it needs moderation.  I don't want to force employers to pay their employees more money.  I want to levy additional taxes based on how many employees they have below the poverty line, and by how much they're below.  I want to make it more painful to not pay your employees a livable wage.  I'm tired of our government, and my tax dollars, having to subsidize basic necessities because businesses won't (not can't) pay their employees better.

Well put.  When companies don't care for their employees (health for example) they are requiring society to subsidize their production cost.


Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. It's the crony capitalist way. Thanks, Wall Street!

Let's hope that when the time comes, airport workers are, shall we say, sufficiently organized. That way the airports can be shut down before the greatest (richest) criminals slip through the fingers of revolutionary justice.
 
2013-05-02 12:12:15 PM  

FarkedOver: somedude210: We are the most advanced civilization in the world

It's high time we started acting like it. :)


it's the younger generation (20s now) that are gonna force the changes to happen
 
2013-05-02 12:14:35 PM  

somedude210: FarkedOver: somedude210: We are the most advanced civilization in the world

It's high time we started acting like it. :)

it's the younger generation (20s now) that are gonna force the changes to happen


Let's hope.  I am about done with my 20s.... one more month to go.  I'll peddle revolution to these youngsters well into my old age hopefully.
 
2013-05-02 12:24:02 PM  

FarkedOver: somedude210: FarkedOver: somedude210: We are the most advanced civilization in the world

It's high time we started acting like it. :)

it's the younger generation (20s now) that are gonna force the changes to happen

Let's hope.  I am about done with my 20s.... one more month to go.  I'll peddle revolution to these youngsters well into my old age hopefully.


You know, I'll be 32 in October - I honestly think that if you made it through your 20s without becoming a Brooks-Brothers Boiler Room douche, you're largely in the clear.
 
2013-05-02 12:28:14 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: neversubmit: Why, that dying wage not working out for you?

Well after my transition to lich, thanks Dick Clark, the undead wage is wonderful.


I have heard the wages of undeath are good indeed.
 
2013-05-02 12:33:52 PM  

Dr Dreidel: FarkedOver: somedude210: FarkedOver: somedude210: We are the most advanced civilization in the world

It's high time we started acting like it. :)

it's the younger generation (20s now) that are gonna force the changes to happen

Let's hope.  I am about done with my 20s.... one more month to go.  I'll peddle revolution to these youngsters well into my old age hopefully.

You know, I'll be 32 in October - I honestly think that if you made it through your 20s without becoming a Brooks-Brothers Boiler Room douche, you're largely in the clear.


Both of you, join me and let's get into politics and shape the world from the outside looking in!

/or something like that
//wanna help on my campaign?
///24
 
2013-05-02 12:54:28 PM  

somedude210: Dr Dreidel: FarkedOver: somedude210: FarkedOver: somedude210: We are the most advanced civilization in the world

It's high time we started acting like it. :)

it's the younger generation (20s now) that are gonna force the changes to happen

Let's hope.  I am about done with my 20s.... one more month to go.  I'll peddle revolution to these youngsters well into my old age hopefully.

You know, I'll be 32 in October - I honestly think that if you made it through your 20s without becoming a Brooks-Brothers Boiler Room douche, you're largely in the clear.

Both of you, join me and let's get into politics and shape the world from the outside looking in!

/or something like that
//wanna help on my campaign?
///24


As long as you don't mind my anti-capitalist stance.
 
2013-05-02 01:04:51 PM  

FarkedOver: As long as you don't mind my anti-capitalist stance.


nah
 
2013-05-02 01:16:33 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: somedude210: I have always felt that this generation of young people are the revolutionaries that will reshape the world, to repent for the sins of their fathers.

Also, we could probably have another communist/socialist revolution globally if we rebranded it and no worker would object to such a thing. See what you've done corporations? All we wanted was a living wage and to be treated with dignity and a sense of purpose. A worker's rebellion is on the brink and all you care about is your severance package. What about our livelihoods? If you took a few minutes to think about how your greed is screwing over your workers, you would not have this situation in the world.

Meh, 3D printing and robots makes labor obsolete anyway. The only reason we employ you is that you are cheaper then a robot.


I want to see engineers and other 'management' types keep this attitude up and see where it gets them.
 
2013-05-02 01:17:01 PM  

somedude210: FarkedOver: As long as you don't mind my anti-capitalist stance.

nah


Well, then I'm in as well.

// dibs on spox!
 
2013-05-02 01:23:42 PM  

Dr Dreidel: somedude210: FarkedOver: As long as you don't mind my anti-capitalist stance.

nah

Well, then I'm in as well.

// dibs on spox!


Then it's settled. I run for the presidency and FarkedOver and Dr. Dreidel help run the campaign/presidency!
 
2013-05-02 02:13:02 PM  

FarkedOver: vygramul: Kapital was great at pointing out everything that was wrong with 19th century mainstream economics, but it's still completely wrong, even though it makes some fun and attractive points about production. And he didn't see capitalism as a precursor to socialist government but communist government, which are two very different things. Socialism is a form of capitalism. It's a restricted form of capitalism, but it's still capitalism. Communism transcends [aufheben] capitalism.

Marx pointing out the woes of the industrial era can still be applied to today's modern economies.

I'm pretty sure Marx wouldn't advocate jumping from capitalism right into communism.  The dictatorship of the proletariat and all that...


Given Marx wrote in the 19th century, I'm not sure what he would make of modern economics. After all, much of his work was based on assumptions that are no longer true and economic theory much more developed. (His advocation of the elimination of families was based on the fact that children were sent to work in factories. That doesn't happen anymore.)
 
Ant
2013-05-02 02:34:24 PM  
"And the great owners, who must lose their land in an upheaval, the great owners with access to history, with eyes to read history and to know the great fact: when property accumulates in too few hands it is taken away. And that companion fact: when a majority of the people are hungry and cold they will take by force what they need. And the little screaming fact that sounds through all history: repression works only to strengthen and knit the repressed. The great owners ignored the three cries of history. The land fell into fewer hands, the number of the dispossessed increased, and every effort of the great owners was directed at repression. The money was spent for arms, for gas to protect the great holdings, and spies were sent to catch the murmuring of revolt so that it might be stamped out. The changing economy was ignored, plans for the change ignored; and only means to destroy revolt were considered, while the causes of revolt went on."

- John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath
 
2013-05-02 03:12:50 PM  

vygramul: Given Marx wrote in the 19th century, I'm not sure what he would make of modern economics. After all, much of his work was based on assumptions that are no longer true and economic theory much more developed. (His advocation of the elimination of families was based on the fact that children were sent to work in factories. That doesn't happen anymore.)


When it comes to family and children, I don't recognize that statement as ever having been made by Marx.  When it comes to such matters I defer to Engels. "The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State".  To let wiki sum it up:

"Engels' ideas on the role of property in the creation of the modern family and as such modern civilization begin to become more transparent in the latter part of Chapter 2 as he begins to elaborate on the question of the monogamous relationship and the freedom to enter into (or refuse) such a relationship. Bourgeois law dictates the rules for relationships and inheritances. As such, two partners, even when their marriage is not arranged, will always have the preservation of inheritance in mind and as such will never be entirely free to choose their partner. Engels argues that a relationship based on property rights and forced monogamy will only lead to the proliferation of immorality and prostitution.

The only class, according to Engels, which is free from these restraints of property, and as a result from the danger of moral decay, is the proletariat, as they lack the monetary means that are the basis of (as well as threat to) the bourgeois marriage. Monogamy is therefore guaranteed by the fact that theirs is a voluntary sex-love relationship.

The social revolution which Engels believed was about to happen would eliminate class differences, and therefore also the need for prostitution and the enslavement of women. If men needed only to be concerned with sex-love and no longer with property and inheritance, then monogamy would come naturally.
"

This concept isn't that foreign.  I don't Marx or Engels advocate not having children, but they advocate abstaining from the cultural norms that come with having children just to feed the bourgeois machine.
 
2013-05-02 05:52:39 PM  

FarkedOver: When it comes to family and children, I don't recognize that statement as ever having been made by Marx.


"Abolition [Aufhebung] of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists."
 
2013-05-02 10:00:57 PM  

randomjsa: The "living wage" also known as a major peg of the "consequence free lifestyle".


Why should there ever be "consequences" for working a 40 hour week, you moron? There should be only benefits to working for a living, not punishments. Businesses that can't see their way to paying their people enough that they don't need government assistance should make up the difference by any means necessary.
/yes, I know
//he's a troll
 
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