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(Talking Points Memo)   The conspiracy theory that Obama is buying up all the nation's ammunition is so crazy that even the NRA says it's bull. But that hasn't stopped two GOP congressmen from drafting legislation to combat it   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 256
    More: Stupid, NRA, GOP, obama, house oversight committee, conspiracy theories, Inhofe  
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7118 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 May 2013 at 5:06 PM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-01 10:33:15 PM
Jimmy Inhofe.

He'll soon be drafting legislation by dipping his pinky-finger in his Depends and scrawling it on his nurse's smock.
 
2013-05-01 10:33:24 PM

take_flight: My husband has tried to buy ammo 3 times this month and hasn't been able to find any. He even went to another state last week. I didn't think there was a conspiracy theory about it, but where has all the ammo gone?


Obama bought it all to force ammo buyers to spend money on gas and enough road food to get to the next state.  That's stimulating the economy!  Obama wins again!
 
Rat
2013-05-01 10:46:51 PM
I blame myself for not wanting to get up early to get the daily dose of slim pickins' at Academy.  I've hit the bingo button a few times at Wally World, but my stock is depleted...alas.  I'm almost embarrassed to admit I'm now below 500 rounds.

© its a shame, really
 
2013-05-01 10:51:15 PM

CynicalLA: KittyGlitterSparkles: The DHS has admitted they're buying 1.6 billion rounds. The conspiracies revovle around why.

Department of Homeland Security.  I wonder why.


Remind me again why the Department of Homeland Security needs enough ammo to kill every man, woman, and child in the Homeland five times over?
 
2013-05-01 10:52:07 PM

stuffy: Never let reality mess with a perfectly good derp.


Lots of insults in this thread, but not many actual answers regarding where all of the ammo has actually gone.
 
2013-05-01 10:56:50 PM

Man On Pink Corner: stuffy: Never let reality mess with a perfectly good derp.

Lots of insults in this thread, but not many actual answers regarding where all of the ammo has actually gone.


Yeah I mean youd think that at some point everyone would be stocked up.
 
2013-05-01 11:01:43 PM
Wouldn't it be easier for Obama to use his time machine to go back and rewrite the second amendment?
 
2013-05-01 11:03:13 PM
http://gunbot.net/

Don't buy from gougers on Armslist, Cheaper Than Dirt or Ted Nugent.
 
2013-05-01 11:03:42 PM

Man On Pink Corner: stuffy: Never let reality mess with a perfectly good derp.

Lots of insults in this thread, but not many actual answers regarding where all of the ammo has actually gone.


I shot it.

/except the .50 BMG
//don't know where that went
 
2013-05-01 11:05:31 PM

MylesHeartVodak: http://gunbot.net/

Don't buy from gougers on Armslist, Cheaper Than Dirt or Ted Nugent.


Jesus Christ, even there it's over $1/round for .223.
 
2013-05-01 11:11:13 PM

take_flight: My husband has tried to buy ammo 3 times this month and hasn't been able to find any. He even went to another state last week. I didn't think there was a conspiracy theory about it, but where has all the ammo gone?


Baby, stop worryin' about how much ammo HE needs, and start carin' about how much lovin' YOU need.

Honey, I KNOW y'all are not fighting off a zombie horde. Sorry, that's just not the state of things.

So baby, where's your man expending his feeble ammo?

Is he shootin' paper at the range, or pickin' up flesh-and-sin trophies?

/I'm here because I care
 
2013-05-01 11:29:09 PM

FlashHarry: somebody should add up all the time and money the GOP has spent since 2010 drafting bullshiat legislation like this, the 36 obamacare repeals, reading the constitution aloud, etc. etc.

and that doesn't even count passing blatantly unconstitutional bullshiat laws in the states.

party of small government, my ass.


Or there is a serious question about misuse of funds. If the department is wasting ammunition then the tax payer needs to be represented. The question seems to be why DHS agents need so many more bullets per agent than the US military needs for combat troops. I dont think anyone has a problem with the department buying in bulk to get better prices. But once bought those bullets are a resource for the department, and departments are responsible for consumable resources. Waste is waste.
 
2013-05-01 11:45:15 PM
Were I an unethical manufacturer I might rotate delaying shipments to major media markets to generate the illusion of a shortage in the media until panic buying creates one.

Fortunately our business leaders are above that sort of thing.
 
2013-05-01 11:49:16 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Were I an unethical manufacturer I might rotate delaying shipments to major media markets to generate the illusion of a shortage in the media until panic buying creates one.

Fortunately our business leaders are above that sort of thing.


No American could ever act so immorally. You should flay yourself for the very idea.
 
2013-05-01 11:57:50 PM

Man On Pink Corner: stuffy: Never let reality mess with a perfectly good derp.

Lots of insults in this thread, but not many actual answers regarding where all of the ammo has actually gone.


A bunch of paranoid nuts bought it all.
 
2013-05-02 12:03:54 AM
I drove through Oklahoma once. As I was passing this hugely ridiculous sized cross on the side of the interstate I thought to myself "I bet you could have feed and clothed a lot of people for what it cost to construct that monstrosity."
 
2013-05-02 12:28:01 AM

MylesHeartVodak: http://gunbot.net/

Don't buy from gougers on Armslist, Cheaper Than Dirt or Ted Nugent.


Are you a wizard?

/bookmarked.
 
2013-05-02 12:33:31 AM
SpaceBison
I drove through Oklahoma once. As I was passing this hugely ridiculous sized cross on the side of the interstate I thought to myself "I bet you could have feed and clothed a lot of people for what it cost to construct that monstrosity."


I though the same about the 9/11 memorial
 
2013-05-02 12:42:15 AM

The Smails Kid: Man On Pink Corner: stuffy: Never let reality mess with a perfectly good derp.

Lots of insults in this thread, but not many actual answers regarding where all of the ammo has actually gone.

I shot it.

/except the .50 BMG
//don't know where that went


Palmetto had some in stock, past that I place bulk orders from  http://www.50bmgsupply.com.  Not as good as surplus prices were a few years back, but then what is?
 
2013-05-02 01:28:29 AM

fusillade762: A bunch of paranoid nuts bought it all.


A point on which I think everybody can agree, regardless of outlook.
 
2013-05-02 01:37:03 AM
Never Believe Anything Until It's Officially Denied
 
2013-05-02 03:15:17 AM

vygramul: Jesus Christ, even there it's over $1/round for .223.


That's nuts. AIM Surplus had .30-06 ammo from Prvi Partizan for $0.67/round just a few weeks ago. Sold out now, but not a bad price in general. It's rare to see .30-06 cheaper than .223.

Even their stock of 7.5 Swiss is sold out, which is definitely odd: not a lot of people with K31s. Go figure.
 
2013-05-02 03:27:50 AM
75grain .223 Russian Wolff cost me $1/round in March.

Months before this current scare, I bought 200 rounds of .308 for $70.
 
2013-05-02 04:43:43 AM

KittyGlitterSparkles: Also, if you know where to look on the internet, you can find ammo. Luckygunner has plenty of 223, 9mm, 40 cal, 7.62x39 ect. At least they did last night.


What are the rules for shipping it?  Usually, things that can ignite or explode have annoying rules about shipping.
 
2013-05-02 04:46:49 AM

heypete: Care to show a citation for your claim about the NRA being in the pocket of gun & ammo makers?

According to their tax records about half their annual income is from things like advertising (they have several magazines and publications in which they sell ad space)


How much of that advertising is bought by gun & ammo makers or dealers?
 
2013-05-02 05:18:24 AM

flondrix: What are the rules for shipping it? Usually, things that can ignite or explode have annoying rules about shipping.


In general loaded cartridges (as opposed to bulk powder, primers, etc.) can be ground shipped (no air shipping of ammo) with no extra precautions or costs other having a label like this one. Cartridges are not terribly dangerous when not contained in a gun. UPS ships ammo all the time. FedEx also ships ammo but I think UPS has slightly cheaper rates, so all the ammo vendors I know ship it with UPS. The post office doesn't allow ammo to be shipped.

Bulk powder, primers, and other materials count as "hazardous material" and there's a $20 Haz-Mat fee but UPS and FedEx will still transport them.
 
2013-05-02 05:25:36 AM
If the government buys up all the ammo, then the manufacturers will simply ramp up production.  There's no way you can exhaust a supply that is elastic.
 
2013-05-02 05:35:51 AM

flondrix: How much of that advertising is bought by gun & ammo makers or dealers?


Dealers? Practically none. The magazines are sent to people all over the country, so it wouldn't really make sense for someone to advertise in a national publication for a local dealer.

Manufacturers? A fair bit. I'd say that about 70-80% of the ads (ball park estimate) in their magazines are from the firearms industry (including manufacturers of guns, ammo, accessories, etc.).

The subscribers of the magazines are firearms enthusiasts, so it makes sense for companies in that industry to advertise in the magazines, just like it'd make sense for cigar companies to take out ads in Cigar Aficionado.

That doesn't mean the industry has the NRA in its pocket -- the bulk of their funding still comes from individual membership dues. According to their tax records, about 10% of their income is from advertising in publications.

Do the interests of the NRA, its members, many non-member gun owners, and industry overlap? Absolutely. I'm not denying that. I'm simply saying that the claims that the NRA speaks mostly for the industry rather than for its millions of dues-paying members or that it is in the pocket of industry, are not supported by their tax records and other facts.
 
2013-05-02 06:12:33 AM

heypete: Bulk powder, primers, and other materials count as "hazardous material" and there's a $20 Haz-Mat fee but UPS and FedEx will still transport them.


You can ship bulk powder!?
 
2013-05-02 06:32:46 AM

flondrix: You can ship bulk powder!?


Sure. You can ship a lot of hazardous materials so long as it's properly declared, packed, and paid for.

Not many local dealers sell powder, primers, or other reloading supplies and, if they do, it's a fairly limited supply. Being able to order online and have it shipped is an affordable way of getting reloading supplies, particularly relatively uncommon stuff. When I lived in Tucson a local dealer stocked IMR powders, which was great as I used IMR powders in the ammo I loaded for old military rifles like the M1 Garand (it's picky about pressure and powder type) but didn't stock stuff like Vihtauori and other brands.

Here's a company that sells it. You can buy most powder in 1 or 8 pound containers.

Smokeless powder is not explosive -- it'll burn if ignited, of course, but it doesn't deflagrate (the rapid burning that takes place when a gun fires) unless it's confined. The containers that it comes in are specifically designed to rupture at very low pressures so they won't confine the powder if it catches fire.

A buddy of mine once ordered 16 pounds of powder and 5,000 primers (he was loading for a competition and needed to have several thousand rounds of extremely consistent ammo for training and the match). The FedEx guy showed up with a handcart and a box festooned with scary warning labels ("Do not taunt happy fun box.") and was curious as to what it contained, as he'd never seen something with so many warnings. It was rather amusing. The FedEx guy turned out to be a gun owner as well and they talked shop for a few minutes. It got the guy interested in reloading. :)
 
2013-05-02 07:27:44 AM
archichris:

Or there is a serious question about misuse of funds. If the department is wasting ammunition then the tax payer needs to be represented. The question seems to be why DHS agents need so many more bullets per agent than the US military needs for combat troops. I dont think anyone has a problem with the department buying in bulk to get better prices. But once bought those bullets are a resource for the department, and departments are responsible for consumable resources. Waste is waste.

The comparison of 'per agent' to 'combat troops' is not a valid comparison and doesn't match the original reference where this came up.  The reference I think you are referring to was not just for 'combat troops' but all troops regardless of station or training.  It was a comparison that was purposely misleading.

It should come as no surprise that our federal agents who require quarterly training and certification use more ammunition in a year than the average of all military members regardless of their training requirements or station.

If you spread the average out over all DHS employees it would be more representative of a comparison, or if you truly limited the comparison to 'combat troops' or troops who serve in forces where firearms training was a large part of their day.
 
2013-05-02 08:51:38 AM

PreMortem: Inhofe huh? My money was on King or Gohmert. All are idiots though.


I wasn't surprised. Inhofe is pants-on-head retarded and its been a while since he went out of his way to prove it. He eventually comes through.
 
2013-05-02 08:58:42 AM

moothemagiccow: Because companies have a limited number of bullets they can manufacture and sell


It's even dumber than that.

The more ammo that gets bought the more ammo manufacturing capacity will be created. Eventually capacity will catch up. Unless this cunning conspiracy includes continuously increasing the amount of ammo the gubmit buys capacity will eventually catch up. (free market, supply and demand,  blah blah blah)

And if the evil gubmit ever STOPS buying farkloads of ammo the manufacturers will have excess capacity and prices will drop.

Even if this was a government conspiracy it's a dumb one and wouldn't work long term.

But facts rarely deter Inhofe when he is hot on the trail of a conspiracy theory.
 
2013-05-02 09:04:19 AM
Well....how about that?  These folks are not from the south.

NOT.  FROM.  THE.  SOUTH.

/Highly amusing it is
//Standard reply:  "Oklahoma is just like the south.  We have lots of people here that are "confederates"
///My reply:  "Isn't that nice?"

Cunfusious says those who dish it out the hardest are the ones least likely to take it like a man.
 
2013-05-02 09:06:09 AM
Confucius/Confusious/Confusing/Confused!
 
2013-05-02 09:45:52 AM

Mimic_Octopus: crazy huh ? care to tell me where all the target grade and price 9mm and .40S&W has been for the past farking year then asshole ?  Dont tell me the gun nuts are buying it, they are forced to spend goddamned $500 a case on tactical hollow points since a box of regular FMJ has not hit a shelf since last summer.   A little expensive to practice to proficiency at that rate wouldn't you say ?


You ...ahem...ignorant person, you. Demand has been going up steadily for several years. At the beginning of the year suppliers have to estimate the ENTIRE year's demand. There's a huge conference in Vegas about this every year. It is HARD to estimate a year's worth of demand when it's trickling upward. Small business owners cannot afford to overstock, so they don't estimate high. The fact too is that raw materials suppliers (various metals, fossil fuels) are all having to ramp up procurement and distribution. Supply is simply lagging behind demand because STORE OWNERS are reluctant to overstock, and they know you'll pay top dollar for ammo that IS available. Source: my neighbor has run a firearms shop for decades and he complains about it to me from time to time.
 
2013-05-02 10:10:29 AM

ichiban: Mimic_Octopus: crazy huh ? care to tell me where all the target grade and price 9mm and .40S&W has been for the past farking year then asshole ?  Dont tell me the gun nuts are buying it, they are forced to spend goddamned $500 a case on tactical hollow points since a box of regular FMJ has not hit a shelf since last summer.   A little expensive to practice to proficiency at that rate wouldn't you say ?

You ...ahem...ignorant person, you. Demand has been going up steadily for several years. At the beginning of the year suppliers have to estimate the ENTIRE year's demand. There's a huge conference in Vegas about this every year. It is HARD to estimate a year's worth of demand when it's trickling upward. Small business owners cannot afford to overstock, so they don't estimate high. The fact too is that raw materials suppliers (various metals, fossil fuels) are all having to ramp up procurement and distribution. Supply is simply lagging behind demand because STORE OWNERS are reluctant to overstock, and they know you'll pay top dollar for ammo that IS available. Source: my neighbor has run a firearms shop for decades and he complains about it to me from time to time.


Well, they can afford to overstock some, especially since it's not a product that goes bad or goes out of demand. What they can't afford is to buy additional production capacity when they suspect that we're in an ammo bubble, which we are. But you're right that store owners don't like to overstock, in part because in most places, they're taxed on their stock. That's why stores suddenly seem to have fire sales every once in a while - to get rid of the tax liability. (Some exceptions apply for very inefficient reasons, like the game store in VA that still holds on to computer games that are priced at $40 and come on 5.25" disks.)
 
2013-05-02 10:13:52 AM

Dadoody: Months before this current scare, I bought 200 rounds of .308 for $70.


God. Damn it.
 
2013-05-02 10:19:14 AM

Mimic_Octopus: crazy huh ? care to tell me where all the target grade and price 9mm and .40S&W has been for the past farking year then asshole ?  Dont tell me the gun nuts are buying it, they are forced to spend goddamned $500 a case on tactical hollow points since a box of regular FMJ has not hit a shelf since last summer.   A little expensive to practice to proficiency at that rate wouldn't you say ?


Two things,  the gun nuts are indeed buying it.  They go to walmart at 4 am in my area and buy the stuff the second it hits the shelf as they stock.  If your are a normal person you are never going to get a chance to buy it.

Second, the ranges still seem to have a stock to sell to people buying range time.  So I think they are keeping ammo there instead of putting it out on the shelf.
 
2013-05-02 10:23:06 AM

Sgt Otter: You'll start seeing commanders placing orders for gigantic HDTVs for every flat surface in the headquarters building, and mass purchasing every ridiculous Mall Ninja accessory for their troops' M4s near the end of the fiscal year, because of that stupid line of thinking.



Is this really how the budgeting process works in the military or is this some sort of myth?  I work for the government and if we did that kind of stunt we would have our asses torn open, not to mention its impossible in the first place.

The way it works in the real world:  Before the start of the next budget year, we ask for everything we want and project what we need and how much it will cost.  Then the higher ups look at it, and decide what they will pay for and decide if we will get what we asked for or not.  There is never any extra money to spend at the end of the year, usually you have to go and beg for more money because something cost more than you projected.
 
2013-05-02 10:47:42 AM

manimal2878: Mimic_Octopus: crazy huh ? care to tell me where all the target grade and price 9mm and .40S&W has been for the past farking year then asshole ?  Dont tell me the gun nuts are buying it, they are forced to spend goddamned $500 a case on tactical hollow points since a box of regular FMJ has not hit a shelf since last summer.   A little expensive to practice to proficiency at that rate wouldn't you say ?

Two things,  the gun nuts are indeed buying it.  They go to walmart at 4 am in my area and buy the stuff the second it hits the shelf as they stock.  If your are a normal person you are never going to get a chance to buy it.

Second, the ranges still seem to have a stock to sell to people buying range time.  So I think they are keeping ammo there instead of putting it out on the shelf.


Most of the ranges here reload their own brass and provide "range rounds" at a discount over the brand stuff.  I have no idea if this crunch has effected reloading supplies or not.
 
2013-05-02 11:28:10 AM

heypete: That doesn't mean the industry has the NRA in its pocket -- the bulk of their funding still comes from individual membership dues.


Doesn't Taurus include an NRA membership with every gun sold? That's a pretty direct profit from gun sales.
 
2013-05-02 11:35:23 AM
From Smith & Wesson home page:

www.smith-wesson.com

INDUSTRY alliance?
 
2013-05-02 11:40:47 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: heypete: That doesn't mean the industry has the NRA in its pocket -- the bulk of their funding still comes from individual membership dues.

Doesn't Taurus include an NRA membership with every gun sold? That's a pretty direct profit from gun sales.


Taurus would have to pay the NRA membership dues, which it would then pass on to the consumer, who wants the membership and pays the cost of it.

That's all before I would understand why Taurus would do that, since many people who buy guns already have a membership, and gun stores often give a 10% discount to NRA members. (Join the NRA and get $100 off an assault weapon.) That's still not direct profit from gun sales and is really putting the cart before the horse. This is like saying the UVA alumni committee makes a direct profit off of fodue sales because I get an alumnus discount at the Melting Pot.
 
2013-05-02 11:43:47 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: From Smith & Wesson home page:

[www.smith-wesson.com image 289x153]

INDUSTRY alliance?


Companies will always support fan organizations. You're arguing that a bunch of 'Vette owners who love the car and form a fan club now become an arm of Chevrolet and not the fans.
 
2013-05-02 11:45:19 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Doesn't Taurus include an NRA membership with every gun sold? That's a pretty direct profit from gun sales.


They offer a free, one-year NRA membership as an option to buyers. It's not automatic.

As I've said, the interests of the industry, non-member gun owners, NRA members, and the NRA as an organization often align. It's no surprise that they often have partnerships with members of industry. That said, contributions from industry only make up about 2% of the NRA's annual income, while advertising revenue in their publications (most of which comes from industry) makes up about 10%. About half of their income (the single largest fraction) comes from individual member dues.
 
2013-05-02 12:20:51 PM
Got your Little Orphan Annie decoder handy?

thinkprogress.org
 
2013-05-02 01:15:14 PM

FlashHarry: somebody should add up all the time and money the GOP has spent since 2010 drafting bullshiat legislation like this, the 36 obamacare repeals, reading the constitution aloud, etc. etc.

and that doesn't even count passing blatantly unconstitutional bullshiat laws in the states.

party of small government, my ass.


Party of small Government is Libertarian. Please get it right.
 
2013-05-02 02:23:00 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Got your Little Orphan Annie decoder handy?

[thinkprogress.org image 850x389]


So AARP is an industry-owned organization and doesn't represent old people at all?

boardingarea.com

AARP is just a hotel lobbying group. It doesn't lobby for elderly people at all.
 
2013-05-02 03:36:27 PM

vygramul: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Got your Little Orphan Annie decoder handy?

[thinkprogress.org image 850x389]

So AARP is an industry-owned organization and doesn't represent old people at all?

[boardingarea.com image 850x459]

AARP is just a hotel lobbying group. It doesn't lobby for elderly people at all.


It's definitely a marketing tool. And my point is, the NRA benefits from gun sales.

Never saw the president of AARP telling Congress Obamacare would lead to death panels, though.
 
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