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(New York Daily News)   Giving five-year-old "My First Rifle" yields predictable results   (nydailynews.com) divider line 148
    More: Sad, Kentucky, Lexington Herald-Leader, .22 Long Rifle  
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12238 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 May 2013 at 11:44 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-05-01 11:42:28 AM
21 votes:

dittybopper: bdub77: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

just one of those 'crazy accidents' i guess. OOPSIE.

Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.

/Of course, shouldn't have been any ammo in the room
//Should have been very supervised at that age.
///littlebopper got his first .22 at age 8.


No, an accident is 'Tommy fell out of the tree'. OK you're a parent, you told Tommy to play outside, you didn't mind that Tommy wants to climb the tree, you might have even been watching him, so maybe you blame yourself for his fall. Maybe he dies, you're definitely broken up about it, you definitely blame yourself. Still, accidents happen and you can't always be a split second from your child.

Maybe a gun accident is Tommy was for whatever reason out hunting, supervised by an adult, and accidentally shoots someone or is accidentally shot. I dunno maybe someone was mistaken for a deer. Still terrible.

A gun accident is not 'I left a working firearm in the presence of a five year old which could at any time be used to actually load a bullet into the chamber and be fired, and one of the main rules of firearms is always assume the weapon is loaded. It's obviously tragic, but more importantly, entirely preventable with proper firearm safety. This was gross negligence, not an accident. And as I said before, a five year old IMO should NEVER have access to a firearm because they are five f*cking years old. It was his firearm. It was given to him. That isn't an accident either.
2013-05-01 10:59:04 AM
19 votes:
The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.
2013-05-01 12:13:59 PM
16 votes:
I've learned two things form conservatives on Fark today:

15-year-olds are too young to be trusted with birth control.

And

5-year-olds are adult enough to be trusted with guns.
2013-05-01 11:08:53 AM
11 votes:
this wouldn't have happened if the two-year-old had been carrying.
2013-05-01 11:50:53 AM
7 votes:
Parent(s) should be charged with manslaughter.
2013-05-01 11:54:00 AM
6 votes:

bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.


No, the problem is not that a 5 year old was holding a loaded gun.  The problem was that an adult should have been there, also holding the gun, to make sure safety is a priority.  I've seen a kid about 18 months shoot a rifle... because his father was holding it at the same time.  I think teaching kids all about firearms at a young age is good because it takes the "mystery" out of guns.  Like abstinence-only education, kids are going to get curious and experiment.  The thing is, you need to never leave a child alone with a gun, and always keep the gun inaccessible from them, until they are old enough to be responsible.
2013-05-01 11:52:10 AM
6 votes:
my five year old will learn to shoot eventually.

he's still mastering tooth brushing, how to tie his own shoes, wiping his ass after a dump, choosing appropriate clothes to go outside.

I put gun safety a little bit later, myself.
2013-05-01 11:43:54 AM
6 votes:
This was a triumph.

I'm making a note here, huge success.

It's hard to understate my satisfaction.

For the good of all of us...

(EXCEPT FOR THOSE THAT ARE DEAD)

kbronsito: or neglect to teach a gun owner that you never ever, ever point a gun at another human even if you think it is unloaded (unless your intent is to actually shoot that person)


No offense, but perhaps five years old is a little too young to try to teach a child to do anything with a firearm but stay away from them and call an adult if they see one.

If he's too young to understand the gravitas of a concept such as death, then he's too young to play with a bang stick.
2013-05-01 12:17:58 PM
5 votes:
I'm not sure how we evolved from making sure toy guns in no way look like real guns, but it's OK to make real guns look like toys.
2013-05-01 11:57:43 AM
5 votes:
My 12 year old daughter has this exact same type of rifle, it has an internal lock that keeps the bolt from closing, and it stays locked and in my closet when we are not going out shooting. We also didn't give it to her until she was 11 and demonstrated she knew proper gun safety and she had a certain level of maturity to know the rifle is not a toy.
2013-05-01 11:54:56 AM
5 votes:
Parental negligence.

Did not secure the weapon, did not clear the weapon, did not supervise the use, and clearly did not train the five year old on how he should handle a weapon (as if it is loaded).  I feel terrible for that five year old.  The parents should not have been allowed to breed.
2013-05-01 11:50:22 AM
5 votes:
Once I doused my house in gasoline and gave a 5 year old a pack of matches to play with. Long story short, just one of those crazy accidents.
2013-05-01 11:33:12 AM
5 votes:

bdub77: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

just one of those 'crazy accidents' i guess. OOPSIE.


Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.

/Of course, shouldn't have been any ammo in the room
//Should have been very supervised at that age.
///littlebopper got his first .22 at age 8.
2013-05-01 11:11:31 AM
5 votes:
The only solution to a bad five year old with a gun is a good five year old with a gun.
2013-05-01 12:13:41 PM
4 votes:

bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.


I gave my kids weapons at that age. The differences:

It was only ever out of the case at the range (or for cleaning, but that I did alone for several years)

I held all the ammo, and only loaded it shortly before firing (and I mean RIGHT before firing)

The child was taught it was a WEAPON THAT KILLS and to NEVER point it at anything other than the target AT THE RANGE.

The weapon was kept locked in a locked case (in a locked safe) with the bolt removed. The bolt was locked (along with my other rifle bolts) in a separate lockbox. Finally the ammo was in a different locked room, each caliber in their own lock boxes.

We didn't take chances. My elders didn't take chances with us either. From pellet rifles to bows to firearms, it was relentlessly drilled into us that they kill whatever they are aimed at so don't point it at anyone EVER.
2013-05-01 12:03:40 PM
4 votes:
I don't know about that brand, but I've seen similar guns. They only hold a single shell, and they come with a trigger lock that requires a key to remove. They're not intended to be left in the hands of a child. They're meant to be locked away in a cabinet, with the trigger lock attached, and the single shell removed.

The parent did none of those things and should be charged with whatever form of criminal homicide is applicable.
2013-05-01 11:56:17 AM
4 votes:

dittybopper: bdub77: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

just one of those 'crazy accidents' i guess. OOPSIE.

Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.

/Of course, shouldn't have been any ammo in the room
//Should have been very supervised at that age.
///littlebopper got his first .22 at age 8.


Rarity does not make something an accident.  Marathon bombings are also pretty uncommon.  Would you consider that an accident?
2013-05-01 11:55:48 AM
4 votes:
Cumberland County Coroner Gary White said the family had not realized a shell was left inside the gun, which was kept in a corner of the house.

Responsible gun owners, indeed.
2013-05-01 11:51:13 AM
4 votes:
The 5 year-old had a clean record.  Background checks wouldn't have prevented this.
2013-05-01 11:51:01 AM
4 votes:

Slaves2Darkness: No, even the NRA would not say that this was A-OK. It's a farking tragedy of stupid proportions. I just hope they sterilize the parents and place the kid with someone who has more farking sense.


Really?  They've consistently opposed all forms of storage laws, they've come out against criminal charges for firearms "accidents" of this nature in the past.
2013-05-01 11:48:48 AM
4 votes:
BB guns for kids under 10. That's the golden rule of guns.

A .22? What the hell were these parents thinking?

A Daisy or even an airsoft would have been just as good for a 5 year old.
2013-05-01 11:45:42 AM
4 votes:
Literally a child too young to control it's bladder has a firearm and that's perfectly fine.
2013-05-01 11:44:42 AM
4 votes:
So the solution to the gun problem is better mental health services in the US but giving a gun to a kinder-gardener is A-OK?
2013-05-01 12:15:44 PM
3 votes:

tricycleracer: You can only buy a gun for your kid if you're a good parent, but only a bad parent would want to buy a gun for their kid.

A real "Catch .22".


Well, no. I can comprehend teaching a child about guns. Even at 5. As others in this thread who are *sane* have said, you make sure it is always in the gun safe when you are not physically there.

However, if I were to buy my hypothetical future five-year-old a weapon to learn how to use guns and how to treat them properly (.. something i do not intend to do, but I am engaging in hypotheticals here...)

I do not think I would purchase them a "My First Rifle" that is DESIGNED to look like a toy and have nice, pretty colors.

Since that ENTIRELY UNDERMINES THE LESSON that GUNS ARE NOT F*CKING TOYS.

/Not shouting at you, just gobsmacked by the stupidity of such a product.
2013-05-01 12:01:39 PM
3 votes:

Itstoearly


No, the problem is not that a 5 year old was holding a loaded gun.


THAT IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM.

Unload the firearm: no accident. Lock up the firearm: no accident.


The problem was that an adult should have been there, also holding the gun, to make sure safety is a priority. I've seen a kid about 18 months shoot a rifle... because his father was holding it at the same time.


There is no set of circumstances under which it would be okay for a child to handle a loaded firearm in a dwelling.
2013-05-01 11:51:58 AM
3 votes:
No offense, but perhaps five years old is a little too young to try to teach a child to do anything with a firearm but stay away from them and call an adult if they see one.

Five is a very typical age to start showing a kid how to shoot.  I probably started around that age.  I could see buying them their own small-sized gun too, if you had the money.

What I think is crazy is leaving the gun around for them to play with.  Loaded or unloaded, doesn't matter, a kid that age should never touch a gun without a parent standing right there (with their hand on the gun too, or maybe inches away from it ready to keep it from pointing at anyone).
2013-05-01 11:49:04 AM
3 votes:
This is just a necessary sacrifice of responsible gun ownership. To NOT allow the five year old to have a gun would have been a GRAVE violation of the 2nd amendment.
2013-05-01 11:49:01 AM
3 votes:
Future responsible gun owner.
2013-05-01 11:29:33 AM
3 votes:
When we ban guns for 5-year-olds, only criminal 5-year-olds will have guns!
2013-05-01 02:24:54 PM
2 votes:

pedrop357: Rurouni: This isn't a gun issue.

This is a parenting issue.

The end.

This.


It's a dead girl issue. It goes beyond the immediate family. The parents are idiots and criminals; society needs to protect little girls from parents like these. That girl deserved more than a headstone that reads "Another hero died for Liberty". She deserved a society that cared enough to put reasonable restrictions on exposing young children to guns BEFORE they are killed.

It is a parent's job to raise their children. But guess what? Many parents don't raise them safely. Like these parents, some don't raise their children at all.

If our culture can wean itself from owning people based on the color of their skin, from treating women as property, from sending children to be worked to death in unsafe employment, then our society can wean itself from the "you can't take mah guns away from me" paranoid opposition to reasonable controls on guns and their ownership. We owe that much to the murdered kids of Newton, this poor girl and all the innocent people killed by guns. And we owe them a swift prosecution of those responsible for their murders and their deaths.
2013-05-01 02:11:57 PM
2 votes:
This isn't a gun issue.

This is a parenting issue.

The end.
2013-05-01 12:31:02 PM
2 votes:

Haliburton Cummings: hicks + no education + guns =


hicks
+ no education
+ guns
=
www4.bluevalleyk12.org
2013-05-01 12:29:08 PM
2 votes:
here's my thoughts
#1 if you feel the need to arm your 5 year old, make it a bb/pellet gun
#2 this wasn't a "freak" accident, this was poor parenting, not only did they give a 5 y/o a .22 but they left it loaded, sitting in a corner of the house.
#3 getting past #2, it was left unsupervised, without a trigger lock or locked in a cabinet.

It's sad the little girl died, but I find it hard to have sympathy given the circumstances
2013-05-01 12:27:43 PM
2 votes:
The Lexington Herald-Leader reports the weapon - a Crickett branded by makers Keystone Sporting Arms as "My First Rifle" - was given to the boy last year.

 Crickett rifles from the "My First Rifle" collection for kids on the website of Keystone Sporting ArmsPromotional material on KSA's website says the gun aims to "instill safety in the minds of youth shooters."

..................so much for that promo material. Kids will ALWAYS be kids that why they are call KIDS!!!  You CANNOT 'GUNPROOF' kids anymore than you can 'CHILDPROOF' a chainsaw.


Farking gun ads and farking dumass redneck parents.
2013-05-01 12:18:03 PM
2 votes:

dittybopper: bdub77: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

just one of those 'crazy accidents' i guess. OOPSIE.

Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.

/Of course, shouldn't have been any ammo in the room
//Should have been very supervised at that age.
///littlebopper got his first .22 at age 8.


god damn, dude. have you no heart? have you no soul?

you cant even sack up for this one and say, "this was wrong and bad", but you have to pretend it's a-ok, just a thing that happens, oh welp?

take a step back, go look your kids in the eyes, do what ever you have to do, but Christ, try and have human feeling once in a while, huh? a five year old just killed his baby sibling on accident, for no earthly reason.
2013-05-01 12:06:31 PM
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: BB guns for kids under 10. That's the golden rule of guns.

A .22? What the hell were these parents thinking?

A Daisy or even an airsoft would have been just as good for a 5 year old.


Tell that to my cousin who has spent his whole life wearing a glass eye because of a kid with a bb gun.
2013-05-01 12:04:09 PM
2 votes:

Glockenspiel Hero: If you don't get people started on guns early they tend not to buy them later.  It's also the reason they are so protective of the various "military weapons" like the AR15- most of their profit is there since the hunting market is declining.  (Plus most hunters I know don't own arsenals- they typically have 2-3 rifles in different calibers, not the loaded gun safes you see posted here from time to time)


If you're in North America, and (with the exception of bear) you can't kill it with a 30-06, you probably shouldn't be hunting.

Damn newfangled kiddies and their 7mm Remingtons.
2013-05-01 12:01:37 PM
2 votes:

Itstoearly: Bull.  5 years is old enough to teach how to properly handle a gun.


A child at five years of age does not understand the gravity or concept of Death. Unless you are teaching your child that it is okay to use that rifle when Dad, Mom, or Grandparents are with you and with their permission, and to not touch the thing otherwise, you are failing as a parent. In TFA, the gun being used was marketed  as a farking toy.Not as a weapon that could maim or kill another person.

Itstoearly: Not that I would ever trust one alone with one without adult supervision, but a five year old certainly has the mental capacity to learn "Don't point at people or animals, don't hold the trigger unless you are aiming at the paper target, assume there is always a bullet in the gun"


And guess what happened here.
2013-05-01 11:59:08 AM
2 votes:

Itstoearly: No, the problem is not that a 5 year old was holding a loaded gun.  The problem was that an adult should have been there, also holding the gun, to make sure safety is a priority.  I've seen a kid about 18 months shoot a rifle... because his father was holding it at the same time.  I think teaching kids all about firearms at a young age is good because it takes the "mystery" out of guns.  Like abstinence-only education, kids are going to get curious and experiment.  The thing is, you need to never leave a child alone with a gun, and always keep the gun inaccessible from them, until they are old enough to be responsible.


Not a fan of guns myself, but I concur.
2013-05-01 11:57:25 AM
2 votes:

Clemkadidlefark: My First Car yields predictable results

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/10583657/ns/dateline_nbc/t/car-crash-trail -b roken-lives/

Shall we examine Statistics which is deadlier, or just flame gun owners, because that's what the new meme is?


Generally cars are not marketed to five year olds, and I can think of no states where it is legal to attempt to teach your five year old to drive.

Again, please take a look at the rifle in the story. It's selling a farking *gun* as, well, a toy.

You don't see anything wrong with this?

Anything at all?
2013-05-01 11:57:19 AM
2 votes:

dittybopper: Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.


Being uncommon makes it an accident?

Only three people have been killed by bombs during the entire history of the Boston Marathon, so I guess that was "one of those crazy accidents."
2013-05-01 11:56:29 AM
2 votes:
When I'm dealing with a kid who makes the task of opening a tube of GoGurt look like the end of a porno movie, giving him a deadly firearm wouldn't be my first thought.
2013-05-01 11:50:55 AM
2 votes:

kbronsito: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

or neglect to teach a gun owner that you never ever, ever point a gun at another human even if you think it is unloaded (unless your intent is to actually shoot that person)


I'm not certain that can be taught to every five year old.  What you do instead is keep your firearms in a gun safe, and keep the combination a closely guarded secret.
2013-05-01 11:49:44 AM
2 votes:
It is absolutely disgusting the way gun makers manufacture weapons of destruction to children,  Absolutely shameful.
2013-05-01 11:48:39 AM
2 votes:
Complete failure of the parental system..

/where did the little fark get their hands on 22 ammo?
2013-05-01 11:34:03 AM
2 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.


or neglect to teach a gun owner that you never ever, ever point a gun at another human even if you think it is unloaded (unless your intent is to actually shoot that person)
2013-05-01 11:25:17 AM
2 votes:
'just one of those crazy accidents.'
2013-05-01 11:18:20 AM
2 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: jehovahs witness protection: You should see the bill from the taxidermist.

"He gonna have a heart attack when he sees what I brung him!"


How farked would that be if the parents did have the toddler stuffed and kept it in the house?  Like make the older kid apologize to his stuffed dead sister every day.
2013-05-01 09:52:55 PM
1 votes:
Whoa, lot of comments here.  Late to the party, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

First .22 rifle shot - 6 years old
First 20-guage shotgun shot - 10 years old
First .30-06 rifle shot - 13 years old
First .357 semi-auto pistol shot - 13 years old
First 16-guage semi-auto shotgun shot - 13 years old
First shot with a compound bow with broadhead-tipped arrows: 13 years old

And I survived?  Without a single accident that injured myself or anyone else?  Impossible, right?

One word: RESPONSIBILITY.  Respect the weapon and it respects you back.  I was taught from a very young age about proper handling and care of a deadly weapon, and that is what made all the difference.  If you're too lazy or stupid to educate your kids about proper gun care, and/or are too lazy or stupid to supervise them when they use the weapon, you should expect deserve crap like this to happen.

Irresponsibility causes 100% of all accidents in the US.
2013-05-01 07:35:05 PM
1 votes:
When my daughter is 6, she'll start helping me clean my bolt action rifles. i'll clean the bolt, she'll just need do the wood polishing. It'll be great to have her and dad spend time together.

When she's about 8 or 9, she'll start going to the range with me. I'll give her her first gun, most likely .223 rifle.  it'll be her gun but it'll be locked in my safe. she will only get to use it when i'm around.

when she's a teenager she'll get her first AR15. and when she's 21, her first handgun (probably 9mm).

along with all of this will be a LOT of dad & daughter time, hanging out, talking, doing fun things together that don't involve guns. guns will just be one other hobby and skill we share - like reading, writing, working out, cooking, growing beets, helping others.

and you know... this is what MANY gun owners do. I'm tired of people calling gun owners "rednecks" "uneducated" "right wing nuts" .....
2013-05-01 07:29:16 PM
1 votes:
Quit infringing the rights of gun owners to turn their children into effective killing machines.

The rights of gun owners trump everyone elses.

i21.photobucket.com
2013-05-01 07:05:46 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Tman144: pedrop357: Tman144: So how much is the NRA paying you to spout this bullshiat all afternoon? Seriously, half of these 500 comments are you. If you won't even accept that pink, colorful guns marked to children are a terrible idea, then there is really no hope for you.

fark off troll.  I'll talk as long as other people are talking.  How much is the Brady Group paying you to spread this bullshiat?

Except you're not "talking." You've been posting the same thing over and over again for 6 1/2 hours.

Why are you still here, to talk to me about why I'm here?  fark off.

If I'm posting the same over and over again, it's in response to the same thing being said over and over again, in which case they're not "talking" either.


I came back to see if you would truly be against a law making it illegal to make deadly weapons look like a super-soaker. Apparently the answer is yes.

Well, I guess I'm off to design my new line of rat poisons that look and taste like Werther's Originals. I hope there aren't any crazy accidents!
2013-05-01 07:04:23 PM
1 votes:

loaba: A 5-yr old should never have had unsupervised access to a loaded weapon. That's it, that's all there is to it. Plain and simple common sense says that any and all gun-based activities should be with an adult. This kid killed his sister and it is completely mom and dad's fault. They were negligent.


This.
2013-05-01 07:03:59 PM
1 votes:
A 5-yr old should never have had unsupervised access to a loaded weapon. That's it, that's all there is to it. Plain and simple common sense says that any and all gun-based activities should be with an adult. This kid killed his sister and it is completely mom and dad's fault. They were negligent.
2013-05-01 06:53:11 PM
1 votes:

Sofa King Smart: but they're sooooo cute with their little guns...
won' t someone think of the children('s second amendment rights)

[www.addictinginfo.org image 650x422]

btw... don't do a google image search of 'kids with guns'


Well then I would have never found the next "Welcome to Fark" pic:

4.bp.blogspot.com
2013-05-01 05:30:32 PM
1 votes:
so, how about now?

img202.imageshack.us
2013-05-01 03:36:49 PM
1 votes:
So, are you guys done? Is it gun porn time?

img585.imageshack.us
2013-05-01 03:20:41 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: One cannot be prosecuted for trying to stymie "common sense" regulations or safety reforms as the 1st amendment protects the rights of people and groups to advocate against such changes


Oh, I get it.  You're just spouting off, and you don't really know what you're talking about.  Hint: read the tobacco settlement sometime.  They weren't sued because their products were deadly when used as directed, rather they were sued because of their massive lobbying and PR campaigns to obfuscate objective truths.  Just like the gun industry has done.

The 1st amendment protects your freedom of speech, it does not protect you from the CONSEQUENCES of your speech.

pedrop357: "We" did not prosecute GENERAL MOTORS (which is not the NRA equivalent of that time) for the shortcomings of the Corvair. Can you please show a reference to anyone being criminally prosecuted for what happened? There were federal laws enacted in the wake, but that's a far, far cry from criminal prosecution.


Ok, you're accidentally right on this one.  They weren't "prosecuted" per se, the feds just allowed over 100 civil suits against GM to go forward, including one brought by Nader himself that targeted misleading claims by GM's advocacy arm.  Are you ok allowing gun manufacturers to be sued by people who are harmed by their guns being used as directed?  Because once again, if you're not, your entire argument kind of falls apart.

pedrop357: You really should sober up before you post.


Ahhh, completely unearned arrogance, the tone of someone who knows he's been beaten.
2013-05-01 03:04:47 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Serious Post on Serious Thread: And cars and pools have pretty extensive safety laws governing them. Fences, covers, drainage, pump covers, seat belts, car seats, speed limits, crash tolerances. etc. etc.

But not giving a gun to a 5 yo? OMG MY 2A RITESWHARGARRRBRBRBRBLLLLLL!!111!!!!!1!

All of those things have more accidental deaths than guns.

Giving a gun to a 5 year old the way they did was farking stupid and they should have known better.  The parents and their multiple stupid, careless acts should be what everyone is pissed about the same way they would if a parent deliberately chose not to buckle their kid up or disable their pool alarm or prop the gate/door open.


Are you...a little special? I'll type slowly so you can understand. Yes. We all get cars & pools result in accidental deaths. We get it. Really, really we do. So put that aside. It isn't an argument, it's a fact.

Here are some arguments. Take notes. You may learn something.

1. Dangerous things ought to be regulated to make them less dangerous. Pools and cars are pretty well regulated, and apparently most sane, rational people don't have a problem with that. But proposing similar regulations on guns yields weapons grade whargarbl from gun nuts along the lines of: "But other things kill kids more, so NO GUN REGULATION!" This is not an argument, it is farktarded.

2. Things that are NOT designed to kill and mame people still do and are thus regulated. So things that ARE designed to kill and mame logically should be regulated even more closely even if the death toll is lower than pools and cars. "But other things kill kids more, so NO GUN REGULATION!"  Is not an argument, it is farktarded.

Care to try again?
2013-05-01 02:40:02 PM
1 votes:
peter21:But this is a thread about a 5-year old who shot a 2-year old. With a rifle. Produced by a company that markets their product to children. Surprise, you'll find most people here talking about things related to this incident.

We also have lots of people ignoring the fact that the children can't buy guns.

We also have others blaming the NRA, calling for guns to be banned for people under 21, trolling with BS about the other child needing to be armed.

The parents bought it and damn well knew to secure it better then they did.

When parents fail to secure other things that should be secured or blatantly disregard/bypass safety things and their kid gets hurt, we blame the parent for not doing what they should have done and it basically ends there.
2013-05-01 02:18:29 PM
1 votes:

Rurouni: This isn't a gun issue.

This is a parenting issue.

The end.


Yes, if this kid hadn't had access to a gun, he would have just killed his sister some other way.  *snert*
2013-05-01 02:12:31 PM
1 votes:

Rurouni: This isn't a gun issue.

This is a parenting issue.

The end.


This.
2013-05-01 02:09:42 PM
1 votes:

inglixthemad: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

I gave my kids weapons at that age. The differences:

It was only ever out of the case at the range (or for cleaning, but that I did alone for several years)

I held all the ammo, and only loaded it shortly before firing (and I mean RIGHT before firing)

The child was taught it was a WEAPON THAT KILLS and to NEVER point it at anything other than the target AT THE RANGE.

The weapon was kept locked in a locked case (in a locked safe) with the bolt removed. The bolt was locked (along with my other rifle bolts) in a separate lockbox. Finally the ammo was in a different locked room, each caliber in their own lock boxes.

We didn't take chances. My elders didn't take chances with us either. From pellet rifles to bows to firearms, it was relentlessly drilled into us that they kill whatever they are aimed at so don't point it at anyone EVER.


You know, you raise a point here, and I'm using your post to articulate it, but don't take it personally.

We hear relentlessly about guns being important tools for protecting yourself and your family against, say, intruders. Someone breaks into your house and you nobly blow their farking head off because you are an armed citizen aware of and exercising your second amendment rights.

So, tell me. How the fark do you "protect your family" if you have the guns locked up, the ammo somewhere else, the bolts locked up in a separate place?

Do you ask the intruders nicely: "Please wait for me to assemble my tool of home protection and then stand still so I can kill you"

If a loaded gun isn't immediately accessible and immediately fireable in the event of an intruder - then what is the farking point???

If you just like to have guns to shoot them at a range and so you think having the rest of society suffer the consequences of millions of guns in the hands of whomever is a-okay - go get a different farking hobby!
2013-05-01 01:51:29 PM
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: justanotherfarkinfarker: pedrop357: Even without an explicit law, it would seem that neglect and/or reckless endangerment laws would cover it.

Your a horrible internet lawyer. The court system isn't going to bother. You don't charge every parent of a kid who accidentally drowns. This really isn't much different. Preventable, horrible accidents happen. And drowning happens many times more a year.

If they die in a pool that wasn't up to code, someone gets arrested.

Good thing we're not allowed to adopt any laws regarding gun safety though.


In addition, I think there's a rather significant line to be drawn between "oops, I forgot to lock the pool gate" (an error that is several steps removed from a fatal tragedy and that can be made in good faith in relation to something that was already purchased with the intention of remediating a hazard) and "oops, there was a round loaded in the gun I left with my child" (an error that is a single trigger pull removed from a fatal tragedy and requires the utter rejection of basic, universally recognized safety rules). In addition, the dangerous object was given to the child as a gift.

This is less like your kid slipping out the patio door and falling into the pool and more like you standing your kid on the edge of the pool, throwing a toy into the pool, and walking away.

What will happen next is just a "crazy accident", and we can't hold the parents responsible for it, amirite?
2013-05-01 01:49:28 PM
1 votes:

Bravo Two: This is why I'm all for stiff penalties for this. Safe storage laws. Safety training. Background checks. My 2nd Amendment Rights aren't more important than the lives of a child, and I'll jump through a few hoops to stop this shiat from happening.


Thing is, these types of parents ignore those laws in the states that have them.  The only people really burdened are the people who don't need them.

You jumping through more hoops doesn't stop it from happening.  Them jumping through these hoops won't stop it if they just disregard the laws/advice and act like idiots anyway.

Our current system of laws has produced an environment where accidental deaths are extremely rare despite the ubiquitous nature of firearms in many households.  The remainder are going to be very difficult to mitigate without serious and draconian steps that STILL may not eliminate of the remaining deaths.

The question is how far are we willing to go to eliminate some or all of less than 50 accidental child deaths in a year?
2013-05-01 01:48:30 PM
1 votes:
I plan on digging a 20 foot pit in the kitchen (2 feet wide) and then I'm gonna run to the store for a bit while my toddlers supervise themselves.

I HOPE NO CRAZY ACCIDENTS HAPPEN AND IF THEY DO I'M CERTAINLY EXPECTING TO AVOID PROSECUTION.

/less than 5 children per year are killed by kitchen pits
2013-05-01 01:32:59 PM
1 votes:

noitsnot: Sofa King Smart: but they're sooooo cute with their little guns...
won' t someone think of the children('s second amendment rights)

[www.addictinginfo.org image 650x422]

btw... don't do a google image search of 'kids with guns'

[www.addictinginfo.org image 650x422]

Most unbelievable image ever. If the girl on the right lets fly, she could take out both the others with the same bullet. And her finger is right at the trigger too.


But wait! There's more. Apparently the same kids with a weapons upgrade.

comm439sp10.csulb.wikispaces.net
2013-05-01 01:29:54 PM
1 votes:

Debeo Summa Credo: Wow. Disgusting and sad. WTF is wrong with gun nuts?


They are emotionally stunted, self-centered cocknozzles?
2013-05-01 01:19:51 PM
1 votes:
No one needs to go to jail over this. The fact that your actions led to your child's death is enough. You will think about that every day. They should never own a gun again though. They lost that right with the you're too stupid sub clause in the 2nd.

/was target shooting as a kid. Guns were locked up otherwise though
2013-05-01 01:16:05 PM
1 votes:

Sofa King Smart: but they're sooooo cute with their little guns...
won' t someone think of the children('s second amendment rights)

[www.addictinginfo.org image 650x422]

btw... don't do a google image search of 'kids with guns'


www.addictinginfo.org

Most unbelievable image ever. If the girl on the right lets fly, she could take out both the others with the same bullet. And her finger is right at the trigger too.
2013-05-01 01:15:20 PM
1 votes:
It's time to repeal the second amendment.
2013-05-01 01:07:21 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: crzybtch: However, if you throw out a vote for a law that gun and cars are banned for all until age 21, you get my vote. Call me an idiot, but I want less dead children.

That being said, for you to compare teenagers getting killed in car wrecks versus a FIVE year old killing his little sister with a gun, I think you really need to think a little harder about the difference between the two. Seriously!

Vehicles are the cause of death for 4-26 year olds.  Lots of small children in there.  Far more 4-11 year olds killed in car crashes than killed in gun accidents.

Car crashes are the 2nd and/or 3rd leading cause of death for 0-4 year olds.  Gun accidents are literally one in a million events.

If you actually cared about saving lives, you'd be more interested in the things that 'killed' hundreds of young children and not the thing that 'kills' under 50.


OMFG!!! seriously? another but car/toaster/baseball bats kill more kids retortt!

www.troll.me
2013-05-01 12:58:22 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: crzybtch: However, if you throw out a vote for a law that gun and cars are banned for all until age 21, you get my vote. Call me an idiot, but I want less dead children.

That being said, for you to compare teenagers getting killed in car wrecks versus a FIVE year old killing his little sister with a gun, I think you really need to think a little harder about the difference between the two. Seriously!

Vehicles are the cause of death for 4-26 year olds.  Lots of small children in there.  Far more 4-11 year olds killed in car crashes than killed in gun accidents.

Car crashes are the 2nd and/or 3rd leading cause of death for 0-4 year olds.  Gun accidents are literally one in a million events.

If you actually cared about saving lives, you'd be more interested in the things that 'killed' hundreds of young children and not the thing that 'kills' under 50.


Kids often have a necessity to go places in cars. No child has a necessity to possess a rifle.
2013-05-01 12:55:12 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: I do see the difference.  But, when kids are left in a car and cause it to move, or snag the keys and cause some kind of injury or death, the parents are blamed and it pretty much ends their.  No one starts blaming the "car lobby" or engaging in various diatribes against car ownership or the fact that ANYONE can buy a car.
It doesn't happen when parents give their teenager a car either.

When guns are involved, you can expect all kinds of half baked attacks on the NRA, gun owners, idiotic strawmen about how if the 2 year old was armed, etc.  It's plainly obvious that it's about guns and a political agenda and not about saving lives or protecting children.


Has anyone in this thread talked about banning guns?  I read the entire thing and I don't remember one post.  We all said children that young should never have a gun.  When a child puts a car into drive parents are charged with negligence, these parents so far are getting off with nothing when they should be charged.

Not anyone can buy a car btw you have to have a valid license, yet to buy a gun you need no such license.
2013-05-01 12:53:55 PM
1 votes:

crzybtch: Well you are the one that decided to equate a 5 year old with a gun to sales of alcohol, so I call that a fail.


I call your reading comprehension a fail.
2013-05-01 12:52:26 PM
1 votes:
pedrop357:

You're wasting your breath on these Farkers. What you should do instead is go and meet some of the Sandy Hook parents and tell them how relieved and grateful they should be that their kids weren't killed in car accidents. They beat the odds, yay!
2013-05-01 12:52:06 PM
1 votes:
It's nice to know that if I gave a five year old a stick of dynamite and a lit match, it will be ruled a "crazy accident" when he blows himself up.

Really.  That's SUCH a load off my chest.
2013-05-01 12:52:01 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Cupajo: No, but I would certainly criticize parents for allowing their kids to drive cars, and I would most assuredly criticize a company that produces, markets and sells a fully functional car designed especially for 5-year-olds.
You really can't be so daft that you don't recognize the difference, right?

I do see the difference.  But, when kids are left in a car and cause it to move, or snag the keys and cause some kind of injury or death, the parents are blamed and it pretty much ends their.  No one starts blaming the "car lobby" or engaging in various diatribes against car ownership or the fact that ANYONE can buy a car.
It doesn't happen when parents give their teenager a car either.

When guns are involved, you can expect all kinds of half baked attacks on the NRA, gun owners, idiotic strawmen about how if the 2 year old was armed, etc.  It's plainly obvious that it's about guns and a political agenda and not about saving lives or protecting children.


Let me know when Ford starting making and marketing fully functional cars for 5yr olds. Then I'll blame the "car lobby"
2013-05-01 12:48:58 PM
1 votes:
oh look dittybopper is whiteknighting guns again. totally never would've expected him in this thread.
2013-05-01 12:48:15 PM
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Lord_Baull: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Yeah, because making alcohol illegal for people under 21 stops them from drinking and driving.. and dying over a thousand times each year.  Oh wait, it doesn't.

And the number would be what without those laws? Higher, maybe? Your position that we should do nothing because current laws are not 100% effective is, well, stupid.

Do you have proof that the laws do anything?  Do teenagers care that alcohol is illegal?  Do they care that drinking and driving is illegal?  You're trying to legislate against stupidity, which is well, stupid.

Rules written on paper aren't what stop people from doing things that are harmful.  People stop doing things that are harmful when they have a deep realization of the reality, and consequences of harmful actions.



Riiighhhht. If there were no 21 alcohol laws, 19 year olds would still not drink because they have a deep realization of the reality and consequences of harmful actions.
2013-05-01 12:48:12 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Jairzinho: pedrop357: Since cars, pools, parents, etc. kill far more children than guns, why the obsession with guns?

Q: Which of the following were invented to inflict harm and death?

a- cars
b- pools
c- guns

I suppose you want the answer c, so I'll give you that.

What's great about the order you placed those in, is that it's the same rank those things have in accidental deaths and injuries of small children.

The one thing "invented to inflict harm and death " is responsible for much less of it than things not invented for that purpose.

I guess when it comes to focusing on the things that kill and injure small children, their welfare takes a backseat (no pun intended) to more agenda pushing.


That's because most people aren't stupid enough to let 5 yr olds play with guns, whereas with cars and pools, 5 yr olds interact with them more often.
2013-05-01 12:46:57 PM
1 votes:

markb289: 1. Cars/Guns comparison is stupid. Cars have a primary use of transportation. Guns have a primary use of firing bullets.

2. No one gives a car to a 5 year old or tries to teach a five year old to drive.

3. We do require licensing to drive a car.


You're required to go through courses and have a license in Canada in order to purchase a firearm.
2013-05-01 12:45:58 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Lord_Baull: pedrop357: Dusk-You-n-Me: [i.imgur.com image 530x453]

I've been assured that nothing can be done and this is just the price we pay for freedom.

Don't tell him about the hundreds of kids who die in car crashes.


If only there was some sort of government regulation to make cars as safe as possible and limit the number of needless deaths!

Yes, and it's doing a wonderful job.  Hundreds dead, thousands injured.
Repeat with things like pools, bathtubs and buckets and their role in small children drowning

Guns which number in the hundreds of millions are responsible for about 40-50 deaths each year,  and that is where everyone really wants to focus?  Perhaps a little perspective is called for.  Parents should be definitely more responsible, but given that we tolerate far more deaths due to accident in other areas, I can't help but wonder why the high priority given to gun accidents.


I GOT THE SOLUTION!  Everyone isn't allowed to leave their house or their bed.  I mean people die from skin cancer so you can't go outside you could die from the sun.  People slip and fall in the shower and die so we better ban showers, some people fall asleep taking a bath so we better ban baths so you can only use wet wipes to clean up.

GUN ACCIDENTS ARE FULLY PREVENTABLE!  I have yet to see a gun "accident" that could not have been prevented if common steps would have been taken.  BTW there are more than 40-50 deaths per year by guns.
2013-05-01 12:44:16 PM
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: crzybtch: Having worked with 5 year olds, I can tell you that they regularly do things they are told not to do.

Sure, when you're not paying attention to them.  When you're actively watching them, which you should be doing if you're taking them shooting, they'll generally do whatever an adult tells them to do, since the attention itself is a reward for obedience.


And I suppose the average 5 year old would never make a mistake either?

I suppose the kid would be just as happy going skating, riding bikes, playing soccer, flying a kite, building a model, playing baseball, using a skateboard, hiking, etc, etc, etc. but his life would be so barren and meaningless if he never shot a gun.  Right?
2013-05-01 12:43:52 PM
1 votes:
I am at a serious loss as to why some people in this thread are defending giving a gun to a 5 year old.
2013-05-01 12:43:45 PM
1 votes:

noitsnot: I don't really believe the details of the incident -

1) A family obviously familiar with guns "accidentally" leaves it loaded?
2) The single shot fired while the boy was "playing with" the rifle just happened to hit and kill his sister?

I have the nasty suspicion that the kid aimed it at his sister and pulled the trigger - just like the cool guys do on TV.


It's not good enough to just rule this as a "crazy accident" the parents should be prosecuted for neglect, child endangerment, etc. I think 5 is a little young to start shooting, but if the parent's decided to do that, it most defiantly should have only been under direct supervision and other wise the gun should have been locked up somewhere, not "sitting in the corner"

Sounds to me like the dumbassed parents just let the kid play with the thing unloaded all the time.
2013-05-01 12:43:12 PM
1 votes:

Tman144: Why wouldn't you just get the kid a BB gun? What could you possibly be doing at 5 years old that you couldn't do with a BB gun? It's like giving a 5yr old a Kawasaki instead of a tricycle. They're called "baby steps" for a reason.


static.giantbomb.com

Agrees.

There'll be plenty of time when he's older, and finds Power Armor.
2013-05-01 12:42:31 PM
1 votes:
Giving a 4 year old child a gun is a God given right!

Shooting toddlers is just some crazy accident...much in the same way as a shart!  There's no need to charge the parents, hell I'm sure they'll look back on this in the coming years and just laugh and laugh about how they armed their 4 year old and then a year later, whoo boy did we have fun!
2013-05-01 12:39:13 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Is anyone going to criticize parents for allowing their kids to ride in cars, given that motor vehicles crashes are the leading cause for people 4 to 26?


No, but I would certainly criticize parents for allowing their kids to  drive cars, and I would most assuredly criticize a company that produces, markets and sells a fully functional car designed especially for 5-year-olds.
You really can't be so daft that you don't recognize the difference, right?
2013-05-01 12:38:14 PM
1 votes:
Why wouldn't you just get the kid a BB gun? What could you possibly be doing at 5 years old that you couldn't do with a BB gun? It's like giving a 5yr old a Kawasaki instead of a tricycle. They're called "baby steps" for a reason.
2013-05-01 12:38:07 PM
1 votes:
A 5-year-old certainly has the capacity to learn firearm safety and understand certain consequences. The emotional and intellectual discipline to be relied on to apply that learning is something else entirely, as is the physical development to avoid waving it around or accidentally pulling the trigger if they're rough-housing or get distracted.

I'm about as freedom loving as they get, but these parents should be charged. It's Guns 101 that there could always be a loaded round you didn't know about. The simple fact that they've admitted they didn't care enough or know enough to check for a round and yet left it out for a child to access anyway should really be treated as a reckless disregard for human life. Just because it was a crazy accident doesn't mean the crazy that led to the death of a child shouldn't be regarded as a crime.
2013-05-01 12:37:17 PM
1 votes:
I learned to shoot at 7 with a .22 but in a controlled environment in scouting. My folks let me have a bb gun and let me shoot unsupervised at targets in the backyard when I was probably 8.

I would never consider giving a .22 to a 5 year old. If I had a child in the house, a gun would always be in a locked safe it sure as shiat wouldn't be sitting in the corner whether or not I thought it was loaded because a gun is ALWAYS considered loaded.

A family is ruined because the parents couldn't observe a simple farking safety rule. Imagine how the 5 yo is going to have to live the rest of his life knowing he killed his sister.
2013-05-01 12:36:32 PM
1 votes:

noitsnot: Itstoearly: hardinparamedic: This was a triumph.

I'm making a note here, huge success.

It's hard to understate my satisfaction.

For the good of all of us...

(EXCEPT FOR THOSE THAT ARE DEAD)

kbronsito: or neglect to teach a gun owner that you never ever, ever point a gun at another human even if you think it is unloaded (unless your intent is to actually shoot that person)

No offense, but perhaps five years old is a little too young to try to teach a child to do anything with a firearm but stay away from them and call an adult if they see one.

If he's too young to understand the gravitas of a concept such as death, then he's too young to play with a bang stick.

Bull.  5 years is old enough to teach how to properly handle a gun.  Not that I would ever trust one alone with one without adult supervision, but a five year old certainly has the mental capacity to learn "Don't point at people or animals, don't hold the trigger unless you are aiming at the paper target, assume there is always a bullet in the gun"

No Bull. Have a look here at the emotional development of a five year old. They have not yet learned the concept of death. They cannot yet view the world from another's point of view. They do not understand ethical or moral values.


Yes. But is a 5-year old able to understand that you'll take the gun away forever and whoop his ass if he touches it w/o an adult present.

Of course... if the kid knows that you'll take his gun away to whoop his ass... he may shoot you to protect his gun ownership right and to keep you from whooping him. I guess it is a bit of a conundrum.
2013-05-01 12:36:15 PM
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: I'll be waiting patiently for your proof that laws stop people from doing stupid things.


I'm not getting into this circular argument with you, because I get tired of chasing your goalposts down. If you want proof that laws stop people from doing "stupid things", you can resort to what ever social philosopher that is your soup de jour.

I'm just going to mock you for touting out such intellectual laziness and dishonesty.

In other words, welcome to FARK.
2013-05-01 12:33:44 PM
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Do you have proof that the laws do anything?


We really need to eliminate homicide laws. We're punishing the responsible killers while criminals will kill regardless of the law.
2013-05-01 12:30:46 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: TNel: pedrop357: Is anyone going to criticize parents for allowing their kids to ride in cars, given that motor vehicles crashes are the leading cause for people 4 to 26?

Riding in cars (passive occupant) is the same as someone actively using a weapon?  I don't understand your logic.

I thought saving lives was the goal here.  Less than 50 kids die due to firearm accidents each year, while hundreds die in car crashes.

A child passenger is as passive as the victim was in this case.  A young driver is as active as the shooter was in this case.

People fail to realize that the reason people can exhaustively tabulate the children who die from firearm accidents is because the number is so small.

They wouldn't be able to keep up with all the kids who die in car crashes as passengers, drivers, and non occupants.
Their list would be much bigger if they did the same thing for all the kids killed at the hands of their parents and other caregivers, ditto for accidental drownings in pools and even things like buckets.

If saving children's lives is the goal and the standard is zero as set by some people here, let's go after the really big fish and try to save hundreds of lives.

The fact that people obsess over <50 and ignore hundreds demonstrates that they care more about the death in its ability to further a political agenda.


It's the old "Look at all the crickett rifles that DIDN'T kill anyone" argument.
2013-05-01 12:30:46 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Dusk-You-n-Me: [i.imgur.com image 530x453]

I've been assured that nothing can be done and this is just the price we pay for freedom.

Don't tell him about the hundreds of kids who die in car crashes.


When guns are subject to even a fraction of the regulation that cars are, then you MIGHT have an argument here.....
2013-05-01 12:30:37 PM
1 votes:
I think that as a parent if you are going to have a gun or guns in your house, the kids should be taught how to respect them and realize they are not a toy.  With that said,  the parents "didn't realize a shell was left in the rifle"  I'm sorry but part of responsible gun ownership is ensuring the weapon is safe and secured.  Crazy circumstances or not this is parental negligence.
2013-05-01 12:29:50 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).


So that's an acceptable able number of child deaths?  I wonder how much it has to be too much? Then I remember  Buckyballs have killed exactly 0 kids, but we can't have those anymore.
2013-05-01 12:25:36 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Dusk-You-n-Me: [i.imgur.com image 530x453]

I've been assured that nothing can be done and this is just the price we pay for freedom.

Don't tell him about the hundreds of kids who die in car crashes.


How many of them were 5yr old and driving?
2013-05-01 12:24:30 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Felgraf: et alone the idea of marketing a gun like "My First Rifle", as if it were a goddamn *TOY*...

Who cares how they market it?  Gun stores don't sell rifles to 5 year olds. They sell them to adults, for whom all responsibility lies.


NAh, the adults don't have responsibility. After all, Dittybopper has assured us that this is just 'an accident'.

And if they're not charging the adults in this scenario with a crime, well, I guess no one's being held responsible, are they?
2013-05-01 12:23:51 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: pippi longstocking: Get rid of the 2nd Amendment, it's a relic. A gun is not a human right to life, it's a privilege. I'm not saying that they should take away your guns, but they should be treated as a privilege not a right.

You have more of a "right" to a gun than you do to a driver's license.

2/10


Actually, he/she's correct. You have a constitutional right to gun ownership (with certain restrictions). You do not have a constitutional right to a driver's license, only to the freedom of travel. Driving is a privilege that the state deemed legally restrictable based on the potential harm a 2 ton missile could do traveling at 55 miles an hour.
2013-05-01 12:20:39 PM
1 votes:
I received my first rifle, a .22, for my 6th birthday. Many of my friends got the same thing.  The chief difference is that my parents and grandparents weren't idiots about it.  As were the parents of my friends.
2013-05-01 12:19:43 PM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: You can get your miscarried child mounted in a "memory box"


I'll have you know it's called a dead babyquarium.
2013-05-01 12:19:40 PM
1 votes:
This was one of the photos on the now-removed Crickett Firearms Facebook page (Cached copy at  http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-nZxrouLuZQJ:www . facebook.com/pages/Crickett-Firearms-My-First-Rifle/312272590517%3Fsk% 3Dphotos+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Somehow, I think childproofing the gun is probably the better way to go.

www.drydocksports.com
2013-05-01 12:18:55 PM
1 votes:
Terribly sad.
I'm sick of debating the merits of guns (and lack thereof).

Just sad.
2013-05-01 12:18:15 PM
1 votes:

Itstoearly: hardinparamedic: This was a triumph.

I'm making a note here, huge success.

It's hard to understate my satisfaction.

For the good of all of us...

(EXCEPT FOR THOSE THAT ARE DEAD)

kbronsito: or neglect to teach a gun owner that you never ever, ever point a gun at another human even if you think it is unloaded (unless your intent is to actually shoot that person)

No offense, but perhaps five years old is a little too young to try to teach a child to do anything with a firearm but stay away from them and call an adult if they see one.

If he's too young to understand the gravitas of a concept such as death, then he's too young to play with a bang stick.

Bull.  5 years is old enough to teach how to properly handle a gun.  Not that I would ever trust one alone with one without adult supervision, but a five year old certainly has the mental capacity to learn "Don't point at people or animals, don't hold the trigger unless you are aiming at the paper target, assume there is always a bullet in the gun"


No Bull. Have a look here at the emotional development of a five year old. They have not yet learned the concept of death. They cannot yet view the world from another's point of view. They do not understand ethical or moral values.
2013-05-01 12:17:57 PM
1 votes:

inglixthemad: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

I gave my kids weapons at that age. The differences:

It was only ever out of the case at the range (or for cleaning, but that I did alone for several years)

I held all the ammo, and only loaded it shortly before firing (and I mean RIGHT before firing)

The child was taught it was a WEAPON THAT KILLS and to NEVER point it at anything other than the target AT THE RANGE.

The weapon was kept locked in a locked case (in a locked safe) with the bolt removed. The bolt was locked (along with my other rifle bolts) in a separate lockbox. Finally the ammo was in a different locked room, each caliber in their own lock boxes.

We didn't take chances. My elders didn't take chances with us either. From pellet rifles to bows to firearms, it was relentlessly drilled into us that they kill whatever they are aimed at so don't point it at anyone EVER.


I also suspect the gun you used/trained your kid on wasn't painted bright and pretty colors, and you taught your children that guns are not toys.
2013-05-01 12:17:37 PM
1 votes:

Itstoearly


I don't think you understood my post, because we're pretty much in agreement.


I think we sort of agree. Where we diverge is that I do not agree that having the adult also holding on to the loaded firearm in this situation would have made it okay.

It might have prevented the other child from dying if the adult had controlled the muzzle direction, but it still could have resulted in a negligent discharge indoors.
2013-05-01 12:16:22 PM
1 votes:
Get rid of the 2nd Amendment, it's a relic. A gun is not a human right to life, it's a privilege. I'm not saying that they should take away your guns, but they should be treated as a privilege not a right.

You have more of a "right" to a gun than you do to a driver's license.
2013-05-01 12:15:24 PM
1 votes:

Itstoearly: hardinparamedic: This was a triumph.

I'm making a note here, huge success.

It's hard to understate my satisfaction.

For the good of all of us...

(EXCEPT FOR THOSE THAT ARE DEAD)

kbronsito: or neglect to teach a gun owner that you never ever, ever point a gun at another human even if you think it is unloaded (unless your intent is to actually shoot that person)

No offense, but perhaps five years old is a little too young to try to teach a child to do anything with a firearm but stay away from them and call an adult if they see one.

If he's too young to understand the gravitas of a concept such as death, then he's too young to play with a bang stick.

Bull.  5 years is old enough to teach how to properly handle a gun.  Not that I would ever trust one alone with one without adult supervision, but a five year old certainly has the mental capacity to learn "Don't point at people or animals, don't hold the trigger unless you are aiming at the paper target, assume there is always a bullet in the gun"


You are crazy!  Having worked with 5 year olds, I can tell you that they regularly do things they are told not to do.  And they have no real concept of death or permanent injury.  Anyone who thinks a five year old is old enough to have a gun is seriously delusional!
2013-05-01 12:15:05 PM
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Yeah, because making alcohol illegal for people under 21 stops them from drinking and driving.. and dying over a thousand times each year.  Oh wait, it doesn't.


Yeah, I think we've had enough discussions about gun lawsas such. Maybe we need to have a discussion about our attitudes about guns. About how much we like them, and how much misplaced faith we place in them. Of course, that would be hard, and ranting against gun laws is easy, and we are an intellectually lazy people - so that probably won't happen.
2013-05-01 12:14:59 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: bdub77: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

just one of those 'crazy accidents' i guess. OOPSIE.

Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.

/Of course, shouldn't have been any ammo in the room
//Should have been very supervised at that age.
///littlebopper got his first .22 at age 8.


41 dead kids is no big deal. Really come on guys, accidents happen.

You have some seriously farked up logic dude.
2013-05-01 12:12:19 PM
1 votes:

Yogimus: Gotta admit, though... it IS a pretty good litmus test of someone's parenting skills.


You can only buy a gun for your kid if you're a good parent, but only a bad parent would want to buy a gun for their kid.

A real "Catch .22".
2013-05-01 12:09:33 PM
1 votes:

buckler: hardinparamedic: A child at five years of age does not understand the gravity or concept of Death.

THIS. If you tell a child at that age that someone is dead, they will assume it's akin to sleep, and that they will wake up, or that they've left temporarily and will be back. That concept doesn't start to sink in until about a year later, development-wise.


Well that and 5 year olds are still in the "I'm going to do this even though I've been told not to, to assert my independence" phase.

Plus, what the flying fark is the big rush? Why does junior have to be allowed to shoot a gun at 5? Wait 3 or 4 goddamn years at least for farks sake! Wait until they at least have somewhat fully developed logic and reasoning?
2013-05-01 12:07:39 PM
1 votes:
I don't really believe the details of the incident -

1) A family obviously familiar with guns "accidentally" leaves it loaded?
2) The single shot fired while the boy was "playing with" the rifle just happened to hit and kill his sister?

I have the nasty suspicion that the kid aimed it at his sister and pulled the trigger - just like the cool guys do on TV.
2013-05-01 12:07:23 PM
1 votes:

graeth: Bullshiat; I understood death at 5; its all on the shoulders of parenting.


No, it's on the shoulders of normal variation; countless research projects including interviews with thousands have children have demonstrated it time and time again. You apparently bucked the curve.
2013-05-01 12:07:02 PM
1 votes:

nmiguy: Darwin awards.


Except it was a 2 year old that died.  Darwin Award would have been appropriate if the kid shot his idiot guardian that left the gun loaded.
2013-05-01 12:06:08 PM
1 votes:
The tree of Freedom is watered with the blood of innocents.
2013-05-01 12:04:17 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: A child at five years of age does not understand the gravity or concept of Death.


THIS. If you tell a child at that age that someone is dead, they will assume it's akin to sleep, and that they will wake up, or that they've left temporarily and will be back. That concept doesn't start to sink in until about a year later, development-wise.
2013-05-01 12:04:14 PM
1 votes:
Don't blame the gun; blame the parents and the one who pulled the trigger.
2013-05-01 12:03:24 PM
1 votes:
Maybe it's because I live in "Commie" California, but aren't you required to keep guns secured in a house with kids? I know I do, but maybe that's just the COMMON farkING SENSE in me!

Stupid parents a re stupid. I got a BB gun when i was about 10 and didn't get anything more powerful until I was 16, and that was a .22. Then a 12 gauge for hunting at 17. Had to take the Hunter Safety course and did get training from my parents on how to be careful. Guns were never left loaded and were kept away from little kids, even WAY back in those days
2013-05-01 12:02:23 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: bdub77: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

just one of those 'crazy accidents' i guess. OOPSIE.

Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.

/Of course, shouldn't have been any ammo in the room
//Should have been very supervised at that age.
///littlebopper got his first .22 at age 8.


Only 41 kids dead?  Oh, then no problem.  Lets keep kids and guns together.

Or maybe....ZERO kids dead might be a better idea??

Like it would RUIN someone's life if they didn't touch a gun til they are 21?  Seriously??
2013-05-01 12:01:53 PM
1 votes:

ristst: And all these Ted Nuget-type hunting shows say "take a kid hunting".  It's one of their major themes.


If you look at the statistics gun makers have to push this, since many fewer kids are hunting than they used to.  If you don't get people started on guns early they tend not to buy them later.  It's also the reason they are so protective of the various "military weapons" like the AR15- most of their profit is there since the hunting market is declining.  (Plus most hunters I know don't own arsenals- they typically have 2-3 rifles in different calibers, not the loaded gun safes you see posted here from time to time)
2013-05-01 11:59:29 AM
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: kbronsito: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

or neglect to teach a gun owner that you never ever, ever point a gun at another human even if you think it is unloaded (unless your intent is to actually shoot that person)

I'm not certain that can be taught to every five year old.  What you do instead is keep your firearms in a gun safe, and keep the combination a closely guarded secret.


you should still do the gun safe thing too... but teaching him not to point the gun at humans is a nice built in redundancy in the system. And the kid was supposed to learn that rule eventually anyways. My uncle gave some sort of bb gun to his grandson (age 6) and told him the no pointing rule. A couple of days later, the kid pointed it at him anyways but then pointed it away quicly in a typical attempt to test his boundaries. He lost the gun for some time and got a time out also.
2013-05-01 11:58:24 AM
1 votes:
The important thing to remember is that further infringement of our second amendment rights would not have prevented this from happening.
2013-05-01 11:58:04 AM
1 votes:

Clemkadidlefark: My First Car yields predictable results

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/10583657/ns/dateline_nbc/t/car-crash-trail -b roken-lives/

Shall we examine Statistics which is deadlier, or just flame gun owners, because that's what the new meme is?


Funny how no one is saying ban guns, only attacking the irresponsibility and negligence of a parent.

But hey, that's just because we watched Sesame Street as a kid and learned how to tell "One of these things is not like the other", and not Bernie's Right Wing Christian Hate Fest on TBN.
2013-05-01 11:56:34 AM
1 votes:

Itstoearly: No, the problem is not that a 5 year old was holding a loaded gun.


No, the problem is that a 5 year old, who thinks DEATH IS REVERSIBLE, was given a loaded weapon and taught to play with it, and then given access to ammunition while being allowed to treat an unloaded weapon as a toy.

Itstoearly: The problem was that an adult should have been there, also holding the gun, to make sure safety is a priority.  I've seen a kid about 18 months shoot a rifle... because his father was holding it at the same time.


Hey, I too can present totally different situations than what happened here and argue from them.

Itstoearly: Like abstinence-only education, kids are going to get curious and experiment.  The thing is, you need to never leave a child alone with a gun, and always keep the gun inaccessible from them, until they are old enough to be responsible.


The only thing you should be teaching a kid to do with a gun that is not in the hands of a responsible adult at the age of five years old is to tell an adult and stay the fark away from them.
2013-05-01 11:56:31 AM
1 votes:
If you give a .22 to a 5 year old then you have mental problems. I don't know how else to say it.

No one's going to jail for this, are they? They kept a loaded .22 leaning in the corner of the living room and they're going to be allowed to just keep on screwing up this 5 year olds life for the next 13 years.
2013-05-01 11:56:29 AM
1 votes:
Brilliant work stopping that tyranny before she could mature into something more dangerous to our American way of life.  This boy should get a parade and a seat on the NRA Board of Directors.

The important thing is that this five year old's Second Amendment rights (bestowed in love from Jesus himself) weren't infringed upon by some lackwitted, goosestepping Obamanaut
2013-05-01 11:55:51 AM
1 votes:
i108.photobucket.com
 Unavailable for comment
2013-05-01 11:55:25 AM
1 votes:
Meh I was learning to shoot a rifle at that age. Was a tad funny because the rifle my mom was teaching me with was such that I had to brace it on the fence to shoot... I couldn't hold it by myself. I was pretty good at it other than that.
2013-05-01 11:55:13 AM
1 votes:
My First Car yields predictable results

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/10583657/ns/dateline_nbc/t/car-crash-trail -b roken-lives/

Shall we examine Statistics which is deadlier, or just flame gun owners, because that's what the new meme is?
2013-05-01 11:55:11 AM
1 votes:

dittybopper: bdub77: Marcus Aurelius: bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.

Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.

just one of those 'crazy accidents' i guess. OOPSIE.

Actually, yes, it is.

Do you know how many kids age 11 and under die in gun accidents every year?

Less than 50.  In fact, in 2010, the number was 41.  The chance is literally greater than a million to one (the rate is .08 per 100,000).

So yeah, it *IS* one of those crazy accidents.

/Of course, shouldn't have been any ammo in the room
//Should have been very supervised at that age.
///littlebopper got his first .22 at age 8.


No, see, an 'accident' implies that there is no real fault here.

Unless you feel the parents aren't at fault, and shouldn't be prosecuted in any fashion? OH WELL, THESE THINGS JUST HAPPEN I SUPPOSE, *SHRUG* should be the appropriate response?

Let alone the idea of marketing a gun like "My First Rifle", as if it were a goddamn *TOY*...
2013-05-01 11:53:48 AM
1 votes:
Definitive proof that a gun is just another tool, like a can-opener, and needs no extra care nor concern.

/amidoinitrite?
2013-05-01 11:53:29 AM
1 votes:
Maybe it was self defense
2013-05-01 11:53:12 AM
1 votes:
Imagine the havoc he could gave wrought if he had been given a Kinder Surprise.
2013-05-01 11:52:56 AM
1 votes:
We just need armed guards in every home to prevent this sort of thing. Why isn't Obama working with the Republicans on this common sense measure?
2013-05-01 11:52:28 AM
1 votes:
As someone who has experienced this kind of thing (one cousin killed his brother in a hunting accident) I will say I don't find anything humorous in this story, nor any of the comments.

I grew up in a family where both sides were committed hunters.  And in this culture it was very common to see children hunting.  We did it, my brother and I hunted from an early age.

I gave it up decades ago, and I would never even think of giving my daughter a loaded weapon.  Before she died I asked my mom how they did it, and she said it was just a different time.

And all these Ted Nuget-type hunting shows say "take a kid hunting".  It's one of their major themes.
2013-05-01 11:51:02 AM
1 votes:

jehovahs witness protection: You should see the bill from the taxidermist.


You're attempts to divert and evade from this tragedy is noted.  Sad and idiotic as they are.
2013-05-01 11:50:50 AM
1 votes:

Satanic_Hamster: James!: How farked would that be if the parents did have the toddler stuffed and kept it in the house? Like make the older kid apologize to his stuffed dead sister every day.

Can you even do that?  I mean, get a person stuffed or have their head mounted?


Can't think of any reason you couldn't. You can get your miscarried child mounted in a "memory box", so I can imagine having a kid taxidermied would be possible.
2013-05-01 11:50:26 AM
1 votes:
I really hate moron parents.
2013-05-01 11:48:48 AM
1 votes:

James!: So the solution to the gun problem is better mental health services in the US but giving a gun to a kinder-gardener is A-OK?


No, even the NRA would not say that this was A-OK. It's a farking tragedy of stupid proportions. I just hope they sterilize the parents and place the kid with someone who has more farking sense.
hej
2013-05-01 11:46:21 AM
1 votes:

jehovahs witness protection: You should see the bill from the taxidermist.


Thanks.  Now we're both going to hell.
2013-05-01 11:40:50 AM
1 votes:
Ma, come quick I accidentally instilled safety into the mind!
2013-05-01 11:17:20 AM
1 votes:

bdub77: The county coroner has ruled the death 'just one of those crazy accidents.'

No. Some adult gave a loaded gun to a 5-yr old. This isn't a crazy accident. This is parental negligence.

Also WHO GIVES A F*CKING FIREARM TO A 5 YEAR OLD?

Congratulations, dumbass. Now you've ruined at least four lives.


Or brings a loaded gun into the house.  Or leaves a gun leaning in a corner somewhere.
2013-05-01 11:13:02 AM
1 votes:
Wait wait wait, I have another.  When will Obama call this a terrorist act?
2013-05-01 10:55:33 AM
1 votes:
You should see the bill from the taxidermist.
 
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