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(Minot Daily News)   You remember how North Dakota was supposed to have 3.6 billion barrels of recoverable oil? About that   (minotdailynews.com) divider line 159
    More: Cool, North Dakota, oil resources, U.S. Geological Survey, paid survey, Bakken formation, Interior Secretary Ken Salazar  
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26720 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 May 2013 at 2:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-01 05:22:31 AM

sporkme: Lukeonia1: FTA: The report also estimates there to be 0.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Meanwhile, that natural gas is all being flared off because they can't earn enough selling it to justify building the infrastructure to recover it. The flares are visible from space.

No citation... told by customers in the industry that the main problem until recently was technology--they were unable to contain it, package it, and make it into something they could sell.  Now, the main problem is catching up.  They have the problem of storage--to keep up production of liquid petroleum they have to let the gas blow by, because you can't exactly let it puddle on the ground or flow it into an above-ground pool. It is either burn it or vent it (venting not allowed for obvious reasons) for want of storage or transport, and they are busting ass to get the gas into production everywhere.  Liquid is easy to store and transport, compared to vapor.

Not that they haven't had this problem from the very start and should have foreseen the polite request that they knock it off with all the burning.  Surely it is a contributor to global [INSERT CAUSE].  They are stupid for not being on the ball.  The development of recovery technology has been too slow.  They missed out, we missed out--but it *is* happening.

My company sells starters, alternators and automotive electronics to industrial and municipal fleets as well as to the general public and businesses.  We have seen a large increase in customers running vapor fuel, especially on the last 2-5 years.  One of our oldest customers now specializes in conversions.  My unscientific appraisal of fleets and equipment that have converted to natural gas is that their under-hood components have longer service lives.  The only factor that has changed is the removal of gasoline or diesel from the system--run it on literal gas and the fiddly bits last significantly longer.  Starter and alternator cores from vapor based systems tend to be less greas ...


Very interesting.  Jibes with my thinking, that "green" tech really has to be green, as in money-green, to take off.
 
2013-05-01 05:27:42 AM

jaybeezey: erik-k: Eh, another billion tons of CO2 up into the air, no biggie.

/Goes to cry thinking of where we'd be if we'd blown a trillion dollars on renewable energy instead of Iraq

We can only afford so many Solyndras and A123's.


Yeah, wouldn't want to cut into our subsidies for the fossil fuel industry.

/free market my ass
 
2013-05-01 06:05:46 AM

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: "This is clearly great news for North Dakota and great news for the nation," Hoeven said. "It will further serve to enhance our state's role as an energy powerhouse for the nation. More than two years ago I persuaded former Interior Secretary Ken Salazar to initiate a new USGS study of the Williston Basin to stimulate more private-sector investment in infrastructure like housing, hotels, retail stores and other services to meet the needs of a rapidly growing western North Dakota. This new USGS study further confirms and reinforces the fact that the Williston Basin is a sustainable, long-term play warranting strong private-sector investment for decades into the future."

In the meantime, gasoline will go up to $7.50 per gallon, and natural gas will be so expensive that only rich people will be able to afford to heat their homes with it. The rest of the world will move away from natural gas and oil to other fuel sources. Fifty years from now, our grandchildren will be wanting to know WTF we were thinking.


I lived through the 1970s oil crises, and I've been wondering what we've been thinking since the
Reagan administration.
 
2013-05-01 06:10:17 AM
www.global-air.com

The local Motel 6 rents rooms for $129.95 a night. The Williston General Motors dealership has become the number one seller of Corvettes in the upper Midwest. Strip clubs are sending "babe buses", complete with live entertainment, out into the area to pick up customers.   More . (new window)
 
2013-05-01 06:29:56 AM

PunGent: jaybeezey: erik-k: Eh, another billion tons of CO2 up into the air, no biggie.

/Goes to cry thinking of where we'd be if we'd blown a trillion dollars on renewable energy instead of Iraq

We can only afford so many Solyndras and A123's.

Yeah, wouldn't want to cut into our subsidies for the fossil fuel industry.

/free market my ass


Not for the subsidy but it is cheaper and a better return that what we got with the whole green energy jobs thing when you look at taxes paid and jobs.
 
2013-05-01 06:34:22 AM
"..rapidly growing western North Dakota." So 100 people live there now?
 
2013-05-01 06:44:25 AM

Pointy Tail of Satan: Alright! I'll do my part for the oil companies! I'm off to the dealer! What gets crappier gas mileage? The Ford Explorer or the Hummer?


get you one of those older high mileage badly tuned Suburbans that escaped Obamas 'american cash for you to buy foreign clunkers' program and you got a winnah!
 
2013-05-01 06:45:49 AM
More than 50 posts in, and no Fargo jokes?
 
2013-05-01 06:51:27 AM

cygnusx13: "..rapidly growing western North Dakota." So 100 people live there now?


I keep getting job offers for that area... I keep turning them down because it's North farking Dakota...
 
2013-05-01 06:52:24 AM

iheartscotch: I don't know why we don't have price controls on gas.

Fer Christ's sakes; we have controls on grains and dairy, but not on gas.

/ it just seems to me that, for now, the American public is a captive market to gas prices.

// at the very least; we shouldn't be trading gas futures. That screws with the price.


Hint:

Do the price controls on grain and dairy keep the price artificially higher or lower?
 
2013-05-01 06:57:22 AM

Elegy: Once again the USGS shows how government does things right.


You can always tell someone who has never had a job. They think only the Government makes mistakes.
 
2013-05-01 06:58:27 AM
If you want to make money in a booming area like that, open up a huge bar/BBQ restaurant.
 
2013-05-01 07:02:48 AM

hasty ambush: PunGent: jaybeezey: erik-k: Eh, another billion tons of CO2 up into the air, no biggie.

/Goes to cry thinking of where we'd be if we'd blown a trillion dollars on renewable energy instead of Iraq

We can only afford so many Solyndras and A123's.

Yeah, wouldn't want to cut into our subsidies for the fossil fuel industry.

/free market my ass

Not for the subsidy but it is cheaper and a better return that what we got with the whole green energy jobs thing when you look at taxes paid and jobs.


As long as you ignore externalities like pollution and dump those costs on the taxpayer, you're right
 
2013-05-01 07:02:54 AM

knifeyspoony: tuna fingers: filter: Cool. I own mineral rights up there.

Whoever fell for that one the first time.... 'Sure, I'll sell you this land, but if there is any oil I can do whatever I want, as long as it is at least 100ft from your buildings....'

LOL.They've figured that out. You get nothing. Zilch. Nada.
[scm-l3.technorati.com image 400x265]

What?

[i.imgur.com image 800x360]


Milkshake!!
 
2013-05-01 07:11:08 AM

Mart Laar's beard shaver: More than 50 posts in, and no Fargo jokes?



You're kinda funny lookin'.

/In a general kinda way.
 
2013-05-01 07:24:41 AM
Sir, people are worried about fracking and tar sands oil and don't think it's worth the risks.

Tell them we have twice as much.
 
2013-05-01 07:25:56 AM
I will trade you two wheat and a brick for your oil!
 
2013-05-01 07:30:01 AM
Charlie Freak: On the bright side, they might actually get around to fixing the damn roads.

You can expect to the roads get considerably worse from fracking operations.
 
2013-05-01 07:31:47 AM

Mart Laar's beard shaver: More than 50 posts in, and no Fargo jokes?


I'm just not feeling chippy today.
 
2013-05-01 07:32:33 AM

PunGent: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Bucky Katt: It IS an estimate so don't get too excited.

Uh oh... are we talking potential oil-cop math here?

Yep.  Oil execs have been caught overstating their reserves in the past...oddly, tying stock prices to executive compensation made some of them greedy...who could have expected THAT?

Here, it's a Republican senator...while they're generally a stalwart, trustworthy bunch...

has anyone seen the actual USGS report?

/loss of credibility is a hard thing to overcome


Came in to say something along these lines.  If it's an honest citation from the USGS then it's probably sound.  They're accurate, though a bit optimistic at times, from what I've read.  On the other hand, if it's coming from the oil companies themselves...well there are plenty of reasons to fudge those numbers.
 
2013-05-01 07:41:49 AM
Recoverable at what price/barrel? $50/barrel? $80/barrel? $180/barrel? $300/barrel?

That's the question. Given that these are oil tar sands and are currently being recovered by either strip mining or fracking, and to refine them takes a lot more energy than the usual crude oil refining process, and getting it out of the ground is a LOT more environmentally damaging than drilling a well, I'd say just claiming "hey there's twice as much recoverable oil here" isn't fully covering the subject.
 
2013-05-01 07:53:55 AM
"...the U.S. Geological Survey has determined that there are approximately 7.4 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil"

Technically recoverable is the best kind of recoverable.
 
2013-05-01 07:54:56 AM
So when will the wild west gunfights start like in the gold rush?
 
2013-05-01 08:03:35 AM

unyon: UsikFark: Lukeonia1: FTA: The report also estimates there to be 0.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Meanwhile, that natural gas is all being flared off because they can't earn enough selling it to justify building the infrastructure to recover it. The flares are visible from space.

That's so sad. I hope they are at least collecting the helium, if the concentrations are high enough.

Gas goes to flare all the time.  When wells or gas plants are serviced, the output is frequently sent to flare.  That happens far less frequently than it used to.  These days, it's common for gas-fired electrical cogen stations to be built near gas plants to benefit from production or fuel gas that would have previously gone up the stack.  But flaring will never be zero- it's how lines are purged prior to servicing.

/worked in a number of gas plants


I don't think anyone would take issue with flaring being an operational necessity at times.  The policy should be that if you can't sell it or store it then you can't drill it.   30% of gas drilled in North Dakota is flared off.  That's ridiculous.  It's the same bull about costs being too high to drill the right way so they burden society at large instead.
 
2013-05-01 08:07:12 AM
Great news for the US.
 
2013-05-01 08:10:03 AM

UsikFark: Lukeonia1: FTA: The report also estimates there to be 0.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Meanwhile, that natural gas is all being flared off because they can't earn enough selling it to justify building the infrastructure to recover it. The flares are visible from space.

That's so sad. I hope they are at least collecting the helium, if the concentrations are high enough.


With helium prices what they are right now, they would be stupid not to take advantage. A lot of scientific research is done with LHe, and I know a lot of researchers who are hurting right now due to helium prices. Those few who spent the extra money for a closed cycle system are really seeing the benefits of the extra investment right now.
 
2013-05-01 08:10:53 AM

Mart Laar's beard shaver: More than 50 posts in, and no Fargo jokes?


It's the Godwin equivalent in a ND thread.
 
2013-05-01 08:22:52 AM
'technically recoverable' sounds so promising...
 
2013-05-01 08:23:35 AM
I like burning gas as much as the next guy, but where does this end? I don't have any doubt that human civilization is going to burn the Earths entire endowment of fossil fuels. Even if we know we shouldn't, we won't be able to stop. So what's the result of extracting every ounce of fossil fuel from the Earth and burning and exhausting it into the atmosphere?
 
2013-05-01 08:30:40 AM
by presidential decree, all government vehicles are using a fuel that costs more, gets worse mileage and frags out the engine far quicker
it's all about the money, NOW
So whatever we get out of the earth in the future will just get more expensive
even if it was actually cheaper to recover.
because you gotta cross a politicians palm with silver before you can ever get it near a consumer
 
2013-05-01 08:47:36 AM

Cubansaltyballs: Hopefully none of it is on any Indian reservations, or the Freedom-Loving conservatives in ND might have to displace a few people and ignore a treaty or two.


Hey... maybe you can open up your own gas station. I mean it worked for casinos.
 
2013-05-01 08:49:44 AM
PEAK OIL!!!
 
2013-05-01 08:54:08 AM

Crackpipe: I like burning gas as much as the next guy, but where does this end? I don't have any doubt that human civilization is going to burn the Earths entire endowment of fossil fuels. Even if we know we shouldn't, we won't be able to stop. So what's the result of extracting every ounce of fossil fuel from the Earth and burning and exhausting it into the atmosphere?


Well, if we manage to hang on to a capitalist economy, it will keep getting more expensive until the few people who still have some aren't willing to burn it for anything less than saving their own lives. If we switch to any kind of planned economy, we'll waste it all in an unfortunate bureaucratic mishap (Al Gore needs his helicopter rides downtown, comrade!), and won't even be able to get it to save lives any more.

The effect on the atmosphere? Negligible, the moon's tidal forces bleed off the extra anthropogenic outgas the same way it bleeds off the natural outgas, preventing our atmosphere from assuming a Venusian thickness. CO2 will have a higher concentration, but that will be countered by plant and algae growth.
 
2013-05-01 08:54:57 AM

planes: The local Motel 6 rents rooms for $129.95 a night. The Williston General Motors dealership has become the number one seller of Corvettes in the upper Midwest. Strip clubs are sending "babe buses", complete with live entertainment, out into the area to pick up customers.   More . (new window)


I wonder if it's gotten any better?
 
2013-05-01 09:02:24 AM

dryknife: Charlie Freak: On the bright side, they might actually get around to fixing the damn roads.

You can expect to the roads get considerably worse from fracking operations.


Not in this part of the state. Roads are bad here because of ice, frost, and flooding.
 
2013-05-01 09:03:58 AM

Tatterdemalian: Crackpipe: I like burning gas as much as the next guy, but where does this end? I don't have any doubt that human civilization is going to burn the Earths entire endowment of fossil fuels. Even if we know we shouldn't, we won't be able to stop. So what's the result of extracting every ounce of fossil fuel from the Earth and burning and exhausting it into the atmosphere?

Well, if we manage to hang on to a capitalist economy, it will keep getting more expensive until the few people who still have some aren't willing to burn it for anything less than saving their own lives. If we switch to any kind of planned economy, we'll waste it all in an unfortunate bureaucratic mishap (Al Gore needs his helicopter rides downtown, comrade!), and won't even be able to get it to save lives any more.

The effect on the atmosphere? Negligible, the moon's tidal forces bleed off the extra anthropogenic outgas the same way it bleeds off the natural outgas, preventing our atmosphere from assuming a Venusian thickness. CO2 will have a higher concentration, but that will be countered by plant and algae growth.


Pseudo science bullshiat. Stop lying.
 
2013-05-01 09:07:22 AM
It still isn't renewable - it just allows us to stay on crutches a while longer. We should be smarter than this by now...
 
2013-05-01 09:07:42 AM

planes: [www.global-air.com image 150x195]

The local Motel 6 rents rooms for $129.95 a night. The Williston General Motors dealership has become the number one seller of Corvettes in the upper Midwest. Strip clubs are sending "babe buses", complete with live entertainment, out into the area to pick up customers.   More . (new window)


Since only top notch members of society work the oil fields in ND, it sounds like a nice place to raise a family.
 
2013-05-01 09:10:58 AM

Charlie Freak: Pseudo science bullshiat. Stop lying.


Maybe you should practice that yourself, before you preach it.
 
2013-05-01 09:16:23 AM
So, with our current 19 million barrels/day consumption, and a 3 percent rate of growth in consumption, the North Dakota reserves will last just under eight years instead of 4? Either way, they'll outlast the Ogallala Aquifer, which when exhausted in the next 20-30 years (that's prehistoric fossil water from the post-ice-age melt, folks; it doesn't replenish), will ensure that no one will be able to live on the Great Plains. So might as well get that oil out while you can.

/No, seriously, we're farked.
 
2013-05-01 09:25:12 AM

spickus: Mart Laar's beard shaver: More than 50 posts in, and no Fargo jokes?


You're kinda funny lookin'.

/In a general kinda way.



How's the chicken fricassee?
 
2013-05-01 09:27:59 AM

tuna fingers: filter: Cool. I own mineral rights up there.

Whoever fell for that one the first time.... 'Sure, I'll sell you this land, but if there is any oil I can do whatever I want, as long as it is at least 100ft from your buildings....'

LOL.They've figured that out. You get nothing. Zilch. Nada.
[scm-l3.technorati.com image 400x265]


I drink your milk shake!
 
2013-05-01 09:30:22 AM

Tatterdemalian: Crackpipe: I like burning gas as much as the next guy, but where does this end? I don't have any doubt that human civilization is going to burn the Earths entire endowment of fossil fuels. Even if we know we shouldn't, we won't be able to stop. So what's the result of extracting every ounce of fossil fuel from the Earth and burning and exhausting it into the atmosphere?

Well, if we manage to hang on to a capitalist economy, it will keep getting more expensive until the few people who still have some aren't willing to burn it for anything less than saving their own lives. If we switch to any kind of planned economy, we'll waste it all in an unfortunate bureaucratic mishap (Al Gore needs his helicopter rides downtown, comrade!), and won't even be able to get it to save lives any more.

The effect on the atmosphere? Negligible, the moon's tidal forces bleed off the extra anthropogenic outgas the same way it bleeds off the natural outgas, preventing our atmosphere from assuming a Venusian thickness. CO2 will have a higher concentration, but that will be countered by plant and algae growth.


Oh, the planet will still bop along with some things living on it. They won't necessarily be the same things, and only the teeninsiest change is needed to make a planet that can JUST accommodate 7 billion people into a planet that can't accommodate that many. And that number doesn't have to go into deficit very far before all bets are off. War, plague, loss of technology.

Ask the Mayans and the Easter Islanders how benign the effect of human consumption of resources can be on a civilization. Also, too, study up on the tragedy of the commons.
 
2013-05-01 09:32:17 AM

Tatterdemalian: Charlie Freak: Pseudo science bullshiat. Stop lying.

Maybe you should practice that yourself, before you preach it.


Lunar atmospheric tides are negligible. Daily insolation causes much greater atmospheric tides.
Neither has much effect on atmospheric content.
 
2013-05-01 09:37:15 AM

unyon: UsikFark: Lukeonia1: FTA: The report also estimates there to be 0.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Meanwhile, that natural gas is all being flared off because they can't earn enough selling it to justify building the infrastructure to recover it. The flares are visible from space.

That's so sad. I hope they are at least collecting the helium, if the concentrations are high enough.

Gas goes to flare all the time.  When wells or gas plants are serviced, the output is frequently sent to flare.  That happens far less frequently than it used to.  These days, it's common for gas-fired electrical cogen stations to be built near gas plants to benefit from production or fuel gas that would have previously gone up the stack.  But flaring will never be zero- it's how lines are purged prior to servicing.

/worked in a number of gas plants


Apparently you've never been to ND.  No they are not doing any of that.  They are just burning it all off.
 
2013-05-01 09:50:13 AM

brandent: unyon: UsikFark: Lukeonia1: FTA: The report also estimates there to be 0.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Meanwhile, that natural gas is all being flared off because they can't earn enough selling it to justify building the infrastructure to recover it. The flares are visible from space.

That's so sad. I hope they are at least collecting the helium, if the concentrations are high enough.

Gas goes to flare all the time.  When wells or gas plants are serviced, the output is frequently sent to flare.  That happens far less frequently than it used to.  These days, it's common for gas-fired electrical cogen stations to be built near gas plants to benefit from production or fuel gas that would have previously gone up the stack.  But flaring will never be zero- it's how lines are purged prior to servicing.

/worked in a number of gas plants

Apparently you've never been to ND.  No they are not doing any of that.  They are just burning it all off.


Not all of it.  We have 2 wells on our property.  Just as drilling started, we started working on leases for waste gas generators to be put on site.  Managed to get our hands on a few really high efficiency units.  Yeah, we did have to flare for a bit just before hookup, but once that was done we were feeding the electrical grid for 2 years off those damned things.

The big problem with this idea is that there's so much NG happening in the area that if everyone did it, you'd overwhelm the grid.
 
2013-05-01 09:55:51 AM

rohar: brandent: unyon: UsikFark: Lukeonia1: FTA: The report also estimates there to be 0.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

Meanwhile, that natural gas is all being flared off because they can't earn enough selling it to justify building the infrastructure to recover it. The flares are visible from space.

That's so sad. I hope they are at least collecting the helium, if the concentrations are high enough.

Gas goes to flare all the time.  When wells or gas plants are serviced, the output is frequently sent to flare.  That happens far less frequently than it used to.  These days, it's common for gas-fired electrical cogen stations to be built near gas plants to benefit from production or fuel gas that would have previously gone up the stack.  But flaring will never be zero- it's how lines are purged prior to servicing.

/worked in a number of gas plants

Apparently you've never been to ND.  No they are not doing any of that.  They are just burning it all off.

Not all of it.  We have 2 wells on our property.  Just as drilling started, we started working on leases for waste gas generators to be put on site.  Managed to get our hands on a few really high efficiency units.  Yeah, we did have to flare for a bit just before hookup, but once that was done we were feeding the electrical grid for 2 years off those damned things.

The big problem with this idea is that there's so much NG happening in the area that if everyone did it, you'd overwhelm the grid.


"all" was an exaggeration to make a point but yeah I read something like 1/3 of it is flaring.  The grid doesn't need more power, not enough grid and not enough people to use said power.

I'm all for oil and gas exploration.  I think we should put $100/barrel import tax and lots of problems would be solved simultaneously.  Middle east, the economy, taxes, environment, etc.  But we should realize once you burn it, it's gone and we should slow down and do it right.
 
2013-05-01 10:02:02 AM

iheartscotch: I don't know why we don't have price controls on gas.

Fer Christ's sakes; we have controls on grains and dairy, but not on gas.


Obama's doing the best he can by restricting Gulf drilling. This ND stuff has sneaked around those restrictions, and is fighting the higher price that he's trying to get.
 
2013-05-01 10:17:40 AM
Neat. Now let's leave it there.
 
2013-05-01 10:24:50 AM

RanDomino: Neat. Now let's leave it there.


Why on earth would I do that?  There's a pile of value under my land.  It'll pay for both my kids' education and most likely my retirement.

Why would I walk away?
 
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