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(Yahoo)   Bagram crash recorded on dashcam--oh, my. A big airplane like that shouldn't just stop in mid-air   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 102
    More: Scary, Bagram, Bagram Airfield, public-benefit corporation, evidence  
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33846 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Apr 2013 at 9:26 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-04-30 07:52:59 PM
8 votes:
Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.
2013-04-30 10:21:31 PM
6 votes:

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


It's kinda like this: funny.ph
2013-04-30 10:11:31 PM
5 votes:

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Get a dinner plate.  Balance it on the tip of your finger.  Then put a dinner roll on the center of the plate.  You can still balance it, because the center of gravity is still at the center of the plate.  Now move the roll to the edge of the plate.  You can't balance it at the center point, because the center of gravity has moved so far towards the edge of the plate.

In very general terms, in an airplane, you want the center of gravity to be at a point that basically keeps the plane balanced like the plate with the roll at the middle, except with the wings in balance.  If the cargo shifts to the tail, the tail falls down, and no amount of control surface movement on the wings will bring the nose down and tail back up.  Eventually the wing loses lift, the plane stalls, and gravity takes over.  That's EXACTLY what you see in the video.
2013-04-30 11:20:55 PM
4 votes:

Satanic_Hamster: I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.


Well, if your training includes video like this where someone screwed up, I can see why.
2013-04-30 11:09:12 PM
4 votes:
Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.
2013-04-30 10:10:46 PM
4 votes:

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Think about the center of gravity of a plane loaded with a bunch of heavy objects- it's like a seesaw.  If the objects shift aft suddenly, the plane's nose will come up.  If there's enough weight back there, the plane's control surfaces don't have enough authority to point the nose back down.  Plane climbs too fast, loses airspeed and stalls.  Stall recovery requires you to get the nose down, but you can't  because of the too-far aft CG, and you get exactly what the video shows.
2013-04-30 08:29:45 PM
4 votes:

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


I was an instructor in the Air Training Corps here in the UK years ago. A bunch of cadets were on a week camp at a RAF airbase and were being shown round a hangar including a Tornado being serviced, with chances to sit in the seats etc. After they left a mechanic notices one of the pins from the ejector seat was missing....
He told the FS, the FS told the officer, the officer told the base commander etc. It went up to the top of the RAF and then back down the chain of command of the ATC, in about half an hour. Every cadet was confined to quarters, uniformed ATC staff were on the carpet, civilian staff were almost as confined to quarters as the cadets. When the guilty cadet confessed his parents got a call saying "Your son is no longer in the Air Cadets. You have to collect him now". The atmosphere lasted the rest of the week and affected the next few weeks groups as well.

They do not mess around with ejector seats.
2013-05-01 01:14:11 AM
3 votes:

HBK: Thank you guys for all the explanations. Sorry I derailed the thread a bit, it was something I'd been curious about for a while.


This one doesn't mind. Like I said somewhere, I like Fark because of all the goodies you learn in the comments. The article I couldn't give a fark less about (except for pure social currency and knowing what's going on in the world).

And the best part about threads like these is you usually get a few techies/SMEs/etc. who outgeek each other. Even if they don't agree, you still get a pretty decent look at both sides of the argument enough to form your own opinion about it.

/and any BS gets filtered REALLY quickly
2013-04-30 11:41:20 PM
3 votes:

ko_kyi: Satanic_Hamster: I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

Well, if your training includes video like this where someone screwed up, I can see why.


Yep.  That's the type of personality that job attracts / rewards / promotes.   You WANT anal retentive freaks who obsess with going over all the procedure because THAT'S what the RULES say.  Because if you skip a step you might have shiat like that happen.

On the other hand, playing RPG's / tabletop war gaming w/ them can be trying at times.  F'ing rules lawyers.
2013-04-30 11:13:23 PM
3 votes:

katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.


RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread
2013-04-30 10:27:02 PM
3 votes:
Just goes to show how fragile and weak our technology is.

Something moved. Seven people dead.
2013-04-30 10:05:09 PM
3 votes:

Pfighting Polish: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.


You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.
2013-04-30 09:16:11 PM
3 votes:
I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.
2013-04-30 08:18:03 PM
3 votes:

SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?


I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...
2013-04-30 07:42:06 PM
3 votes:
...holy crap
2013-05-01 01:02:30 AM
2 votes:

Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.


That was true of the old F-111.  A number of pilots were actually, measurably, shorter after ejecting and had life long spinal problems.  The newer seats such as the ACES II do not have this problem.  They ramp up their speed over a short time to accelerate the pilot out of the aircraft rather than reaching full thrust instantly.  That protects them from the instantaneous G forces that caused the spinal problems.
2013-05-01 12:57:05 AM
2 votes:

HBK:  So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


It has nothing to do with the engines.

It's called wake turbulence:

www.faa.gov www.pilotfriend.com
graphics8.nytimes.com

The air gets stirred up in vortexes - little tornadoes - from the tips of the wings of a preceding jet.  The vortexes can last for a long time in still air. They descend below the previous jet's flight path and and spread out horizontally.

They can flip a smaller plane on its back, and they're invisible.  Planes have to try to fly above the flight path of the previous.

Maverick and Goose had an engine flameout when they got so close to the previous jet's exhaust one of their F-14's engine intake starved for clean air and the engine quit.
2013-04-30 11:27:39 PM
2 votes:

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


It's lack of airflow over control surfaces. They could have stuck their arms out the windows to flap and wouldn't have been faulted for it at that point.
2013-04-30 11:12:23 PM
2 votes:
See air travel is either competently safe or totally fatal

/the only way to win is to play TICK-TAC-TOE
2013-04-30 10:53:07 PM
2 votes:

WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know


Not true. Not likely, but not true. Ever been in a regional jet when they ask passengers to move around? That's why. Some planes would barely "notice." Others would. A lot.

Look up the 1977 University of Evansville Men's basketball team.
2013-04-30 10:36:25 PM
2 votes:

aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.


Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.
2013-04-30 10:21:34 PM
2 votes:
juvandy

When the cargo comes loose during takeoff, it shifts toward the back.  This causes the aircraft to pitch up more than the pilot commands (think of like a teeter totter), and at some point the wing stalls.The center of gravity of the airplane moves to the aft as well.  If the cg goes far enough back, it will cause the plane to become unstable and uncontrollable.  More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Here is another video of cargo shifting after take off.  It's deck video of a C-2 Greyhound getting catapulted from the carrier.  One of the snaps broke, and the cargo got loose.  The story is that the first crew who what supposed to take it said no and got a good a** chewing.  So the Captain found another loadmaster and crew, who were willing to take it and ended up putting it in the drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlDmMwI9cik
2013-04-30 10:10:32 PM
2 votes:
To answer everyone's questions of it if were a USAF loadmaster, or a civilian.  It is a civilian loadmaster, as USAF loadmasters do not mess with the civilian aircraft on the bases out there.  They have contractors and civilian employees to take care of all the civilian air traffic out of the bases, and of course the military deals with military

/USAF
//OEF 2011
2013-04-30 10:09:12 PM
2 votes:
Makes me glad we do not have flying cars
2013-04-30 10:07:42 PM
2 votes:

RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.


Departure stalls are nasty. I mean seriously, never want one to happen to you as a pilot, nasty. A big chunk of stall training covers slow flight and stalls. Power on (full power, 20' - 40' of flaps) simulate departure stalls, except for one thing: you have altitude. That's why they drill power on and power off stalls into pilots. One happens on takeoff, the other at landing. Takeoff and landing: the most likely times for an incident to occur.

The pilot in the video? I can't say what happened, but wow. Power on, right wing stall, wing drop without it looking like the pilot attempted to nose over. Just wow.

Don't take the above as gospel though. The problem is perspective. The pilot may may have tried to push the nose down, but the video's perspective might not show that.
2013-04-30 10:06:52 PM
2 votes:
Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.
2013-04-30 10:05:19 PM
2 votes:

people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....


I haven't flown in over 33 yrs.. TSA means I'll never fly again.

/Well, I had no reason to fly. TSA just cements the decision.
2013-04-30 09:59:02 PM
2 votes:

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


In this one, if you believe some of the press, they made a mayday call and said they were in a stall due to a weight shift.  So there's that.  It was a 747-400F, so at most about 20 years old.  I think that means digital flight recorders which should yield a lot of data.
2013-04-30 09:57:01 PM
2 votes:

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


You can, sometimes. There is no CG sensor, but you can extract it from vehicle dynamics models using thrust, attitude, etc.
2013-04-30 09:51:29 PM
2 votes:
Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me
2013-04-30 09:45:48 PM
2 votes:

LessO2: Those are some nasty looking clouds in the background.....any chance wind shear could have played a role?


typically you take off into the wind, also I find it highly unlikely that all 4 engines suddenly said "fek it"
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-04-30 09:28:06 PM
2 votes:
It looked like he almost had it under control when the ground got in the way. That's why you should build your airport at the edge of a cliff. Of course then you get complaints about landing.
2013-04-30 09:23:05 PM
2 votes:

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.


This underscores why you must be careful.
2013-04-30 08:36:57 PM
2 votes:

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.


no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all
2013-04-30 08:07:06 PM
2 votes:
Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.
2013-04-30 07:47:13 PM
2 votes:
Damn, that is a really bad stall.
2013-05-01 04:06:03 PM
1 votes:
I was helping a friend with his food stall at the 2011 Reno Air Races. We both saw things that day that we will never, ever forget. My father was in a commercial airline crash in 1977 in Denver. The point is, be it human error or mechanical error, planes are dangerous things. The old man went on to fly for work a few times a month for the next 30 years (he was, ironically, an aerospace consultant) and still flies a number of times a year. I still continue to fly both on commercial flights and with my private license. When the day comes that your number is called, your number is called, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it. Just my $0.02
2013-05-01 09:38:32 AM
1 votes:
There is an Airforce saying "It is inadvisable to run out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas at the same time."

Also "You can never break the world record for lowest flight. Only tie it."

"Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory. "

"The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

"You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck."

"The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.  "
2013-05-01 08:43:30 AM
1 votes:
The airplane seen from another angle...

www.oocities.org
2013-05-01 07:21:09 AM
1 votes:

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me


Got to be another pilot, or an Air Force trained ground crew. Keep the conversation sterile and factual. Me? I cuss like a sailor, sometimes on an open channel, got the FAA letter to prove it. :)
2013-05-01 06:08:34 AM
1 votes:

Charlie Freak: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Not true. Not likely, but not true. Ever been in a regional jet when they ask passengers to move around? That's why. Some planes would barely "notice." Others would. A lot.

Look up the 1977 University of Evansville Men's basketball team.


From wiki:

Two weeks after the crash, the only member of the basketball team who was not on the DC-3, was killed after being hit by a drunk driver, leaving all of the members of the 1977 Purple Aces Basketball team dead.

Now THAT is some Final Destination shiat right there.
2013-05-01 05:00:56 AM
1 votes:

Flint Ironstag: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

I was an instructor in the Air Training Corps here in the UK years ago. A bunch of cadets were on a week camp at a RAF airbase and were being shown round a hangar including a Tornado being serviced, with chances to sit in the seats etc. After they left a mechanic notices one of the pins from the ejector seat was missing....
He told the FS, the FS told the officer, the officer told the base commander etc. It went up to the top of the RAF and then back down the chain of command of the ATC, in about half an hour. Every cadet was confined to quarters, uniformed ATC staff were on the carpet, civilian staff were almost as confined to quarters as the cadets. When the guilty cadet confessed his parents got a call saying "Your son is no longer in the Air Cadets. You have to collect him now". The atmosphere lasted the rest of the week and affected the next few weeks groups as well.

They do not mess around with ejector seats.


In a former career I built components for ejector seats. There's enough explosives that it's never a "safe" thing to do,
2013-05-01 04:34:23 AM
1 votes:

CMcMahon: So... what do Alex Jones and the Conspiratards have on this one?


I don't listen to the show, but I just clicked over and skimmed the site.  Nothing about this, they're too busy predicting an upcoming economic depression, and claiming the Boston Bombers were both innocents being scapegoated as part of a government false flag operation, while at the same time claiming the older brother was radicalized while working as a secret CIA agent who had since gone rogue.
2013-05-01 04:21:31 AM
1 votes:
So... what do Alex Jones and the Conspiratards have on this one?
2013-05-01 02:20:55 AM
1 votes:
1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.
2013-05-01 02:00:45 AM
1 votes:

thedumbone: I think that we're misunderstanding each other.  I'm saying that it was NOT a CG issue.  The nose dropped in the stall, just as it should have, so the CG was reasonable.  The elevators weren't just working, they were doing too much and caused the event!

This is consistent with a yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go event, and not consistent with a put-a-huge-weight-in-the-tail event.


Because 747 pilots have no idea that yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go will lead to a stall/spin but you do?
Good Fark handle.
2013-05-01 01:47:15 AM
1 votes:

Tiberius Sulla: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

I am so going to hell. I laughed way too hard at the A-10 bit.

/Still laughing
//Aisle seat


I don't mind the window seat as long as you're not fat and bogarting the arm rests.

It's funny now, but the stench in that lab was unbelievable and it took an entire week with the A/C on full to vent it out after we got the exhibits out.  I'll take a decapitation any day over a high speed body cavity smashing.

This crash will be straight up for the investigators.  The bodies will be largely intact with massive burn injuries.  I suspect this will be figured out largely from the black box for this one.  It will probably show clues that the CG suddenly shifted, which will be deduced from the sudden reaction of the aircraft and the resulting attempts to fight it.  My best guess is that a tie down strap/chain came loose.  One of those big vehicles rolled towards the back, and the rest is history.
2013-05-01 01:37:00 AM
1 votes:

thedumbone: neilbradley: To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.

That's just what they'd be expecting.

/I'm sure that they tried to do exactly that, but were unable to for unknown reasons.


The ground was too close to the plane? That seems pretty knowable.
2013-05-01 01:32:57 AM
1 votes:
Warthog
juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Get a dinner plate. Balance it on the tip of your finger. Then put a dinner roll on the center of the plate. You can still balance it, because the center of gravity is still at the center of the plate. Now move the roll to the edge of the plate. You can't balance it at the center point, because the center of gravity has moved so far towards the edge of the plate.

In very general terms, in an airplane, you want the center of gravity to be at a point that basically keeps the plane balanced like the plate with the roll at the middle, except with the wings in balance. If the cargo shifts to the tail, the tail falls down, and no amount of control surface movement on the wings will bring the nose down and tail back up. Eventually the wing loses lift, the plane stalls, and gravity takes over. That's EXACTLY what you see in the video.


A dinner roll did THAT?
2013-05-01 01:29:58 AM
1 votes:
I am at BAF (Bagram).  I was in my office making sure my chair didnt move by sitting in it and I was in and out of doozing off.  Heard the BOOM thought nothing of it cause we have control dets all the time and usually they announce them but every now again they dont.  Any who our loggy came in and said a big ass plane just crashed.  We all went out side and seen the giant fire and GIANT smoke plume.   We stay kinda close to the flight line and they said we may have to evacuate if the smoke gets near us (it didnt).   It was really windy and cold that day.   About an hour after the crash it rained like a mofo.  Hail and everything for a good hour.    I only took one picture of the aftermath.   sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
2013-05-01 01:22:49 AM
1 votes:

flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway


damn, because sometimes you are just not quite farked enough already...
2013-05-01 01:21:55 AM
1 votes:

thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.

The tail is designed to stall after the wing.  A tail stall is a whole different beast and rarely happens outside of icing conditions.

In any event, a stalled tail is producing effectively zero lift.  A flying tail, with the elevator forward, is trying to push the nose down.  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs


Bingo. If your tail is stalled, you're in a whole new and exciting world of aerobatic flight, whether your rig is rated for it or not. And if that's not your intent, soiled underwear to go along with it.
2013-05-01 01:05:28 AM
1 votes:
2013-05-01 12:46:33 AM
1 votes:

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


Dude. The control system worked.  The load shifted suddenly making it tail heavy, so it was a stall-spin to the left due to too high angle of attack.  Lowering the nose is how you recover from a stall.  They correctly leveled the wings with opposite aileron and lowered the nose with the elevator.  They needed another few thousand feet of altitude to recover successfully.
2013-05-01 12:46:01 AM
1 votes:

youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.


This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.
2013-05-01 12:42:09 AM
1 votes:

HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.
2013-05-01 12:40:45 AM
1 votes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXJ_MfAnjgQ

This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens.
2013-05-01 12:28:18 AM
1 votes:

RatOmeter: Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.

Yeah.  I thought at first, pilot should have pitched down hard as soon as the looming stall was apparent.  Then I kept watching and thought, s/he was probably full on it but there was no way to correct a fatal CG offset.


You can hear the engines screaming because they were on takeoff, but once the weight shifted the pilot only had the option of trying to flatten it out and attempt a bad takeoff, but there was too much weight at the back.

It didn't matter what the pilot did at that point - all the weight was at the back of the plane.  Only the thrust of the engines kept it from falling back down cartoon style.  Instead it climbed almost vertical and twisted down after a stall.  Pretty much what you'd expect with broken cargo.
2013-05-01 12:17:06 AM
1 votes:
Which Warlord/CIA agent is pissed his shipment of heroin got destroyed?
2013-05-01 12:04:53 AM
1 votes:

eggrolls: Charlie Freak: eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.

Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?

I think giant airplanes falling from the sky and exploding elicit an almost universal response.


I dunno. Did you watch the Russian dashcam videos of the giant meteor exploding?
2013-04-30 11:46:50 PM
1 votes:

Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAI BA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907
2013-04-30 11:30:25 PM
1 votes:
For those interested in the ejection seat stories there are many "fun" inadvertent ejection stories at http://ejectionsite.com/  Check under "Eyewitness to Ejection" My favorite was the one where they guy was flying along, and woke up on the ground. No plane in sight. They finally found it many hundreds of miles away belly landed on some snow. He accidentally tripped the ejection somehow and when the seat went it knocked him out so he didn't know what happened. The least favorite was the kid (in Somalia or something) playing in a plane and got ejected through the hangar roof.

There are also some good explanations of how the seats work

\Former professional simulator nerd
2013-04-30 11:29:11 PM
1 votes:

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


It's academic at that point, it mattered not to the outcome other than a small effect of the final position and attitude. The roll happened because either the pilot had some aileron/rudder authority and tried to bank or yaw (unlikely on the yaw), or one wing was more stalled than the other.

To the last point, the 747 has a fair bit of dihedral and a sideslipped condition can cause a rolling moment. Once the aircraft was ballistic, there's a chance that the local wind conditions helped initiate that roll.
2013-04-30 11:26:40 PM
1 votes:

China White Tea: This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?


The guy sees a plane crash and burst into a huge fireball with no comment.  About a minute later he utters the expletive in question.
Maybe it took him that long to remember someone asking him if he had properly secured the cargo, and him replying "Yeah, sure.  Whatever."
2013-04-30 11:24:34 PM
1 votes:

FLMoose: Well, I think it's safe to rule out fuel starvation...


Your joke would have been funnier if you said that it's safe to rule out fuel exhaustion.
Fuel starvation is when you have it, but it isn't getting to the engine. Fuel exhaustion is when you're out of juice.

/The more you know.
2013-04-30 10:53:59 PM
1 votes:

theMagni: aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.

Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.


and no nevermind the way it landed would crush your spine in about .015 seconds causing instant death
2013-04-30 10:50:33 PM
1 votes:
This plane crash scene from "Knowing" kind of tripped me out.  (It does have Nicholas Cage so whatever)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPdwCnwuZ8w

Mainly because I used to fly commercial a lot.  Im not sure what I would do other than shiat my pants if the plane went down.
2013-04-30 10:50:29 PM
1 votes:

Flab: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Normally, a plane is "sitting" on its wings, with the center of gravity pretty much on top of the wings.  Something came loose inside as the plane was climbing and all the stuff in the plane slid/rolled/tumbled/crashed towards the back, making the center of gravity move aft, causing the tail of the plane to dip and the nose to rise.  The angle of wings became to high and they lost their lift (this is called a stall) and the plane fell down like a rock.


You can actually kinda simulate this yourself.  When you put your hand out your car window with your thumb kinda curled down in front of your palm mimicking a wing, you will feel a little lift when held parallel to your direction of travel.  As you tilt(angle of attack) up, before the air hits the underside of your palm to lift up, you will notice any lifting effect just drops off and your hand falls.  This is a stall, and is what happens when cargo shifts and changes your angle of attack without enough speed, which causes a stall.
2013-04-30 10:46:08 PM
1 votes:
I was training to be a USAF C-130 Crew Chief when a broken leg sent me back to civilian life so I'm really not getting a kick out of this.
2013-04-30 10:41:22 PM
1 votes:
Peki: Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

Turning wouldn't be effective because at that steep of a pitch their airspeed is bleeding off pretty quick and the ailerons/spoilers are going to become less effective because they don't has as much airflow.  Also, being that slow would bring the stall on quicker because you lose lift on the wing that is on top of the turn.

At the point they were at, there would have been no way to recover.  In a plane that big, going to an large bank angle (for 747 probably anything over 30 degrees) and letting the nose fall, you are going to need a few thousand feet of altitude to get the airspeed up for control surfaces to be effective again.  And if you have loose cargo, there is a good chance that once you get nose down it can/will slide forward and either crush the flight station or shift the cg so far forward that the controls become too heavy and the aircraft won't respond.
2013-04-30 10:40:29 PM
1 votes:

Z1P2: labman: Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.

Not really, it shows that they went quick and didn't suffer.


Some of the crew's family have seen the video...AVherald has a comments section on this video and some of the relatives have already left responses
2013-04-30 10:38:00 PM
1 votes:

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Where an aircraft would balance if put on a pin sturdy enough to do so is it's center of gravity (CG). The CG has to be within certain limits for a safe flight, and looser limits for prolonged flight (unlike the accident here). There are a handful of physics reasons for this, but suffice it to say a CG too far forward and the aircraft does not have enough control authority to raise the nose. Vice-versa for a CG well aft of limits.

The farther something gets from wherever it is suspended (a fulcrum) it is called an arm, and the arm x it's weight is the object's moment. Experiment: Try holding an egg in your hand. Then hold it with a short spoon horizontal to the ground. Then hold it with a long spoon, etc. An aircraft with a long deck and heavy objects as cargo has the potential to generate some serious pitching moments.

Asto how loose cargo can effect this: On takeoff, the aircraft is rapidly accelerating. Objects inside the plane want to stay in the same place in space, but anything restraining or attaching them to the airplane make them go along with it, like people in seats. When the restraints holding said objects in place break, the objects tend to try to stay where they are in space - i.e. the plane moves forward, the cargo does not - it moves backward relative to the rest of the aircraft. Add to this the vertical component of rotation and climb and it makes it worse. Also, once one thing breaks free, it often takes everything behind it with it, compounding the issue.

There may, as will likely be the case with this accident, not be enough control authority to overcome the out-of-balance situation this creates.
2013-04-30 10:34:11 PM
1 votes:

inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:


Princess Juliana International Airport:

4.bp.blogspot.com
q8allinone.com


api.ning.com

farm7.staticflickr.com
2013-04-30 10:25:57 PM
1 votes:

labman: Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.


Not really, it shows that they went quick and didn't suffer.
2013-04-30 10:22:19 PM
1 votes:

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me


I likewise would have been using military-grade expletives in the chance that the plane could be lifted by profanity alone.

/My guess is they loaded the plane thinking in pounds, but loaded kilograms instead.
2013-04-30 10:15:18 PM
1 votes:

Bigjohn3592: RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

 If everything else checks out you can use the pitch rate(and other flight dynamics) combined with elevator position, etc to determine what kind of weight shift would result in that motion.  If the back figured weight shift fits with the weight of a cargo parcel and the available free run it would have if turned loose, you have a good idea that the cargo shifted.


With a flat, low-speed landing like that, they might be able to look at the wreckage to see if any of the cargo looks out of place.  Perhaps look for broken straps or attachment points.
2013-04-30 10:12:13 PM
1 votes:

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?



You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

 If everything else checks out you can use the pitch rate(and other flight dynamics) combined with elevator position, etc to determine what kind of weight shift would result in that motion.  If the back figured weight shift fits with the weight of a cargo parcel and the available free run it would have if turned loose, you have a good idea that the cargo shifted.
2013-04-30 10:11:17 PM
1 votes:

Texas Gabe: Dr Jack Badofsky: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Did you have to tell your parens?

She was a virgin right? You broke her hyphen.


Maybe you'll get lucky and it's just a delayed period.
2013-04-30 10:09:09 PM
1 votes:

Dr Jack Badofsky: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Did you have to tell your parens?


She was a virgin right? You broke her hyphen.
2013-04-30 10:08:18 PM
1 votes:

Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.


Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting
2013-04-30 09:56:50 PM
1 votes:
Went looking and found a newspaper article about the accident- it was an S3 ,not an A6, but just as depressing.  I'd forgotten about the staircase collapse that day, just to add to the error list.

http://news.google.com/newspaper s?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAIBA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907
2013-04-30 09:55:16 PM
1 votes:
Musta been a hellova 10 second ride.  Hope the rest was over quick.

/nothing in this universe kills as fast or as thorough as physics.
2013-04-30 09:51:30 PM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.
2013-04-30 09:50:10 PM
1 votes:
Well, I think it's safe to rule out fuel starvation...
2013-04-30 09:49:24 PM
1 votes:

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.
2013-04-30 09:44:16 PM
1 votes:
Those are some nasty looking clouds in the background.....any chance wind shear could have played a role?
2013-04-30 09:41:40 PM
1 votes:

I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.


Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.
2013-04-30 09:41:26 PM
1 votes:

I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.


Did you have to tell your parens?
2013-04-30 09:35:39 PM
1 votes:
That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.

BTW, Denzel Washington's movie "Flight" is worth seeing for two reasons: the special effects of him landing that plane, and seeing Nadine Velazquez naked. Damn that woman is hot!
2013-04-30 09:34:40 PM
1 votes:
Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.
2013-04-30 09:29:48 PM
1 votes:
This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?
2013-04-30 09:09:11 PM
1 votes:

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


Sometimes I like to sit down for a nice movie with a bowl full of exclamation points.
2013-04-30 08:57:32 PM
1 votes:

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


we're not pac man, here. i wanna know what remus did after he continued eating lunch
2013-04-30 08:51:12 PM
1 votes:

I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?


It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.
2013-04-30 08:49:43 PM
1 votes:

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all


You had an ellipsis for lunch?
2013-04-30 08:48:23 PM
1 votes:

saladan0: Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.


Private company - not USAF.  In the article.
2013-04-30 08:47:28 PM
1 votes:

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.
2013-04-30 08:27:35 PM
1 votes:
For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.
2013-04-30 08:26:31 PM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


Yes, in Germany.  F-4 Phantom.  Martin Baker Mark III seat.  The crew chief wanted to leave this mortal coil, so he did it on purpose.
2013-04-30 07:59:53 PM
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Early word is that they were carrying 5 armored vehicles and something came loose.


That would match the video...  I used to do crash investigations, this isn't going to be pretty.
2013-04-30 07:57:11 PM
1 votes:

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Early word is that they were carrying 5 armored vehicles and something came loose.
2013-04-30 07:54:56 PM
1 votes:
but it didn't stop in mid air
 
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