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(Yahoo)   Bagram crash recorded on dashcam--oh, my. A big airplane like that shouldn't just stop in mid-air   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 537
    More: Scary, Bagram, Bagram Airfield, public-benefit corporation, evidence  
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33877 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Apr 2013 at 9:26 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-30 07:42:06 PM
...holy crap
 
2013-04-30 07:47:13 PM
Damn, that is a really bad stall.
 
2013-04-30 07:52:59 PM
Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.
 
2013-04-30 07:54:56 PM
but it didn't stop in mid air
 
2013-04-30 07:57:11 PM

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Early word is that they were carrying 5 armored vehicles and something came loose.
 
2013-04-30 07:59:53 PM

Popcorn Johnny: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Early word is that they were carrying 5 armored vehicles and something came loose.


That would match the video...  I used to do crash investigations, this isn't going to be pretty.
 
2013-04-30 08:04:48 PM

remus: this isn't going to be pretty.


opposed to what?
 
2013-04-30 08:07:06 PM
Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.
 
2013-04-30 08:10:20 PM
I hate hearing the engines. Their intensity matches the fight that was going on in the cockpit.
 
2013-04-30 08:17:43 PM

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


My thought as well. The gear is still down, which suggests they were already far too busy to worry about putting the gear up.
 
2013-04-30 08:18:03 PM

SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?


I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...
 
2013-04-30 08:20:43 PM

remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.


I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...
 
2013-04-30 08:25:31 PM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


what happened next?
 
2013-04-30 08:26:31 PM

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


Yes, in Germany.  F-4 Phantom.  Martin Baker Mark III seat.  The crew chief wanted to leave this mortal coil, so he did it on purpose.
 
2013-04-30 08:27:35 PM
For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.
 
2013-04-30 08:27:40 PM

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?


We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.
 
2013-04-30 08:29:45 PM

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


I was an instructor in the Air Training Corps here in the UK years ago. A bunch of cadets were on a week camp at a RAF airbase and were being shown round a hangar including a Tornado being serviced, with chances to sit in the seats etc. After they left a mechanic notices one of the pins from the ejector seat was missing....
He told the FS, the FS told the officer, the officer told the base commander etc. It went up to the top of the RAF and then back down the chain of command of the ATC, in about half an hour. Every cadet was confined to quarters, uniformed ATC staff were on the carpet, civilian staff were almost as confined to quarters as the cadets. When the guilty cadet confessed his parents got a call saying "Your son is no longer in the Air Cadets. You have to collect him now". The atmosphere lasted the rest of the week and affected the next few weeks groups as well.

They do not mess around with ejector seats.
 
2013-04-30 08:36:57 PM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.


no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all
 
2013-04-30 08:47:28 PM

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.
 
2013-04-30 08:48:23 PM

saladan0: Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.


Private company - not USAF.  In the article.
 
2013-04-30 08:48:57 PM

saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.


But it was a contractor plane, not USAF.  Would Air Force guys be loading and checking a contractor plane?
 
2013-04-30 08:49:43 PM

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all


You had an ellipsis for lunch?
 
2013-04-30 08:51:12 PM

I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?


It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.
 
2013-04-30 08:57:32 PM

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


we're not pac man, here. i wanna know what remus did after he continued eating lunch
 
2013-04-30 08:58:22 PM
JohnAnnArbor:

But it was a contractor plane, not USAF.  Would Air Force guys be loading and checking a contractor plane?

If it was on a USAF base, probably.
 
2013-04-30 09:09:11 PM

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


Sometimes I like to sit down for a nice movie with a bowl full of exclamation points.
 
2013-04-30 09:16:11 PM
I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.
 
2013-04-30 09:23:05 PM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.


This underscores why you must be careful.
 
2013-04-30 09:23:08 PM

remus: Yes, in Germany. F-4 Phantom. Martin Baker Mark III seat. The crew chief wanted to leave this mortal coil, so he did it on purpose.


I hadn't heard the last part before, only knew it was quite a while ago.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-04-30 09:28:06 PM
It looked like he almost had it under control when the ground got in the way. That's why you should build your airport at the edge of a cliff. Of course then you get complaints about landing.
 
2013-04-30 09:29:48 PM
This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?
 
2013-04-30 09:34:17 PM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


you're a real life TV character. you must get all the women.
 
2013-04-30 09:34:40 PM
Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.
 
2013-04-30 09:35:39 PM
That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.

BTW, Denzel Washington's movie "Flight" is worth seeing for two reasons: the special effects of him landing that plane, and seeing Nadine Velazquez naked. Damn that woman is hot!
 
2013-04-30 09:36:52 PM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.



Reminds me of a story I heard while visiting my brother down in Del Rio,Texas, where he was an instructor pilot at the time.  They had a jet in the unit out on a training mission, when the jet started to come apart and enter a rapid uncontrolled roll.  Instructor gave the instruction to eject, and they did safely (which apparently shocked the wingman, given their roll rate).

But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.
 
2013-04-30 09:37:56 PM

SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?


an unmanned blimp carrying a payload of fresh wild flowers?
 
2013-04-30 09:38:31 PM
In the pre-video days, like 1865. They just had to say it with words when there was a bad accident.

"The Indianapolis Journal reports the following horrible accident, by which a Mrs. KRONAN lost her life: She was killed in crossing the railroad track on Illinois Street. At the time Mrs. KRONAN was attempting to cross, the Terre Haute train was coming in, while the switch engine of the I. & C. road was taking up seven or eight freight cars to the Terre Haute Depot. The woman attempted to get out of the way of the Terre Haute train, and in doing so was unfortunate enough to get in the way of the freight train. She was thrown upon the track, and two or three cars passed directly over her head, mangling it in a most fearful manner; not a feature of her face was left, and identification was impossible except by her dress. Her brains were scattered about, and even her tongue dislocated from her head, and left by the side of the rail. "
 
2013-04-30 09:41:26 PM

I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.


Did you have to tell your parens?
 
2013-04-30 09:41:40 PM

I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.


Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.
 
2013-04-30 09:41:55 PM

saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.


I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

If I had to bet I'd put my money on mechanical failure.
 
2013-04-30 09:43:18 PM
D A Y - U M !

/Not cool peeps... not cool.
 
2013-04-30 09:44:16 PM
Those are some nasty looking clouds in the background.....any chance wind shear could have played a role?
 
2013-04-30 09:44:51 PM
good lord that's creepy
 
2013-04-30 09:45:41 PM

Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.


I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.
 
2013-04-30 09:45:48 PM

LessO2: Those are some nasty looking clouds in the background.....any chance wind shear could have played a role?


typically you take off into the wind, also I find it highly unlikely that all 4 engines suddenly said "fek it"
 
2013-04-30 09:48:40 PM

Flint Ironstag: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

I was an instructor in the Air Training Corps here in the UK years ago. A bunch of cadets were on a week camp at a RAF airbase and were being shown round a hangar including a Tornado being serviced, with chances to sit in the seats etc. After they left a mechanic notices one of the pins from the ejector seat was missing....
He told the FS, the FS told the officer, the officer told the base commander etc. It went up to the top of the RAF and then back down the chain of command of the ATC, in about half an hour. Every cadet was confined to quarters, uniformed ATC staff were on the carpet, civilian staff were almost as confined to quarters as the cadets. When the guilty cadet confessed his parents got a call saying "Your son is no longer in the Air Cadets. You have to collect him now". The atmosphere lasted the rest of the week and affected the next few weeks groups as well.

They do not mess around with ejector seats.




Always bugged me getting in an out of F-16s.

/weapons
 
2013-04-30 09:49:19 PM

saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0



FTL "According to eyewitness reports, the airplane attained a very steep nose-up attitude"

biatch
 
2013-04-30 09:49:24 PM

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.
 
2013-04-30 09:50:10 PM
Well, I think it's safe to rule out fuel starvation...
 
2013-04-30 09:51:07 PM
Socialism fails again.
 
2013-04-30 09:51:21 PM
I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?
 
2013-04-30 09:51:29 PM
Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me
 
2013-04-30 09:51:30 PM

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.
 
2013-04-30 09:53:01 PM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


I was USAF from 1982 to 1992. At Myrtle Beach we had a guy eject as the plane was hitting the ground. The rail holding the seat in place came loose and he ejected forward into the instrument cluster and the forward, fixed canopy. We had nav panel switches 6 inches deep with what looked like head cheese.

I was Com Nav and the on scene investigator always used our shop because we had stations with big magnifying / flourescent light things we use for soldering.
 
2013-04-30 09:53:14 PM
What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?
 
2013-04-30 09:54:13 PM

HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?


There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.
 
2013-04-30 09:54:40 PM

remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.


The bird should have been thawed before it went into the canopy.

/Sorry, had to say it.
 
2013-04-30 09:54:57 PM

skinink: That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.

BTW, Denzel Washington's movie "Flight" is worth seeing for two reasons: the special effects of him landing that plane, and seeing Nadine Velazquez naked. Damn that woman is hot!


I'm not sure "lite" or even "light" is the appropriate word.
 
2013-04-30 09:55:16 PM
Musta been a hellova 10 second ride.  Hope the rest was over quick.

/nothing in this universe kills as fast or as thorough as physics.
 
2013-04-30 09:55:31 PM

Acharne: There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.


You didn't mention the midget gangbang, I notice.
 
2013-04-30 09:55:36 PM

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?


Dessert, I'm guessing.
 
2013-04-30 09:56:08 PM

skinink: BTW, Denzel Washington's movie "Flight" is worth seeing for two reasons: the special effects of him landing that plane, and seeing Nadine Velazquez naked. Damn that woman is hot!


Oh God, read this interview where she discussing putting tape on her lady parts and bending over for Denzel.

/bunk
//was already in it
///might go for round 2
 
2013-04-30 09:56:25 PM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.


Eat it?
 
2013-04-30 09:56:50 PM
Went looking and found a newspaper article about the accident- it was an S3 ,not an A6, but just as depressing.  I'd forgotten about the staircase collapse that day, just to add to the error list.

http://news.google.com/newspaper s?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAIBA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907
 
2013-04-30 09:56:53 PM

LadySusan: I'm not sure "lite" or even "light" is the appropriate word.


Autocorrect has enriched our lives in so many ways.
 
2013-04-30 09:57:01 PM

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


You can, sometimes. There is no CG sensor, but you can extract it from vehicle dynamics models using thrust, attitude, etc.
 
2013-04-30 09:58:04 PM

HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?


Not much.  He pulls over for a bit, calms his dog, then moves to drive around the wreckage.  When the video cuts off, it appears he made it.
 
2013-04-30 09:58:13 PM
Crashing Bagram Style.
 
2013-04-30 09:58:55 PM
I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....
 
2013-04-30 09:59:02 PM

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


In this one, if you believe some of the press, they made a mayday call and said they were in a stall due to a weight shift.  So there's that.  It was a 747-400F, so at most about 20 years old.  I think that means digital flight recorders which should yield a lot of data.
 
2013-04-30 09:59:05 PM
Amazing video framing of a total nightmare come to life.
 
2013-04-30 09:59:17 PM

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/
 
2013-04-30 09:59:49 PM

Matthew Keene: In the pre-video days, like 1865. They just had to say it with words when there was a bad accident.

"The Indianapolis Journal reports the following horrible accident, by which a Mrs. KRONAN lost her life: She was killed in crossing the railroad track on Illinois Street. At the time Mrs. KRONAN was attempting to cross, the Terre Haute train was coming in, while the switch engine of the I. & C. road was taking up seven or eight freight cars to the Terre Haute Depot. The woman attempted to get out of the way of the Terre Haute train, and in doing so was unfortunate enough to get in the way of the freight train. She was thrown upon the track, and two or three cars passed directly over her head, mangling it in a most fearful manner; not a feature of her face was left, and identification was impossible except by her dress. Her brains were scattered about, and even her tongue dislocated from her head, and left by the side of the rail. "


a lot of military incident/injury reports read that way. my dad was notorious for writing fairly humorous ones with something other than a sterile narrative.
 
2013-04-30 09:59:51 PM

Ambivalence: JohnAnnArbor:

But it was a contractor plane, not USAF.  Would Air Force guys be loading and checking a contractor plane?

If it was on a USAF base, probably.


It's a joint ISAF base. Could have been anyone's (as in ISAF forces) cargo.
 
2013-04-30 10:00:24 PM

theorellior: LadySusan: I'm not sure "lite" or even "light" is the appropriate word.

Autocorrect has enriched our lives in so many ways.




/oblig
 
2013-04-30 10:00:51 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.


Oh, .....

wow.
 
2013-04-30 10:01:21 PM
Could have been a load shift or breaking free. Also the plane may have simply been overloaded and/or loaded incorrectly.

/I skip on flying National Airlines myself for hops in the future.
 
2013-04-30 10:01:42 PM
I read there were "multiple" MRAPs on the plane. Just one of those shifting towards the tail and...well you see the video.
 
2013-04-30 10:03:08 PM
Bad.
I watched a plane like that go down.
22 souls lost.
We were still finding pieces years later.
Finger bones, etc.
 
2013-04-30 10:04:01 PM
for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?
 
2013-04-30 10:04:24 PM

skinink: That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.


What's starting to bother me is that I wouldn't mind going out like that.

I might change my mind as I get closer to the ground.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:09 PM

Pfighting Polish: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.


You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:19 PM

people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....


I haven't flown in over 33 yrs.. TSA means I'll never fly again.

/Well, I had no reason to fly. TSA just cements the decision.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:45 PM

vudukungfu: 22 souls bodies lost.


Don't worry, the souls will be waiting for you in heaven.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:46 PM

Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.



Again to hear my brother tell it, depends on the seat and the conditions under which you eject.  The new seats are 'smart' and use different degrees and direction of thrust depending on a host of factors.  At least in some of his F-16 units they tend to refer to the jets as disposable, and talk about ejecting as returning the jet to the tax payers.  They said the two kinds of F-16 pilots are those who'd ejected and those who would, given that it is a single engine jet with a stubby little wing.  Knock on wood, his F-16 units have only lost one jet I can recall in the time he's been flying, but he came very close to having to bail out one dark night over the Sea of Japan.  Fortunately he nursed it home.
 
2013-04-30 10:06:52 PM
Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.
 
2013-04-30 10:07:16 PM
Damn.
 
2013-04-30 10:07:19 PM

redsquid: Pfighting Polish: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.

You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.


Not enough lube left so we only got a semicolon
 
2013-04-30 10:07:42 PM

RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.


Departure stalls are nasty. I mean seriously, never want one to happen to you as a pilot, nasty. A big chunk of stall training covers slow flight and stalls. Power on (full power, 20' - 40' of flaps) simulate departure stalls, except for one thing: you have altitude. That's why they drill power on and power off stalls into pilots. One happens on takeoff, the other at landing. Takeoff and landing: the most likely times for an incident to occur.

The pilot in the video? I can't say what happened, but wow. Power on, right wing stall, wing drop without it looking like the pilot attempted to nose over. Just wow.

Don't take the above as gospel though. The problem is perspective. The pilot may may have tried to push the nose down, but the video's perspective might not show that.
 
2013-04-30 10:08:18 PM

Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.


Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting
 
2013-04-30 10:09:09 PM

Dr Jack Badofsky: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Did you have to tell your parens?


She was a virgin right? You broke her hyphen.
 
2013-04-30 10:09:12 PM
Makes me glad we do not have flying cars
 
2013-04-30 10:10:13 PM
O_O

can't sleep. airplane dropping on top of me.
 
2013-04-30 10:10:31 PM

skinink: Nadine Velazquez naked


[motherofgod.jpg]
 
2013-04-30 10:10:32 PM
To answer everyone's questions of it if were a USAF loadmaster, or a civilian.  It is a civilian loadmaster, as USAF loadmasters do not mess with the civilian aircraft on the bases out there.  They have contractors and civilian employees to take care of all the civilian air traffic out of the bases, and of course the military deals with military

/USAF
//OEF 2011
 
2013-04-30 10:10:46 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Think about the center of gravity of a plane loaded with a bunch of heavy objects- it's like a seesaw.  If the objects shift aft suddenly, the plane's nose will come up.  If there's enough weight back there, the plane's control surfaces don't have enough authority to point the nose back down.  Plane climbs too fast, loses airspeed and stalls.  Stall recovery requires you to get the nose down, but you can't  because of the too-far aft CG, and you get exactly what the video shows.
 
2013-04-30 10:11:17 PM

Texas Gabe: Dr Jack Badofsky: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Did you have to tell your parens?

She was a virgin right? You broke her hyphen.


Maybe you'll get lucky and it's just a delayed period.
 
2013-04-30 10:11:31 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Get a dinner plate.  Balance it on the tip of your finger.  Then put a dinner roll on the center of the plate.  You can still balance it, because the center of gravity is still at the center of the plate.  Now move the roll to the edge of the plate.  You can't balance it at the center point, because the center of gravity has moved so far towards the edge of the plate.

In very general terms, in an airplane, you want the center of gravity to be at a point that basically keeps the plane balanced like the plate with the roll at the middle, except with the wings in balance.  If the cargo shifts to the tail, the tail falls down, and no amount of control surface movement on the wings will bring the nose down and tail back up.  Eventually the wing loses lift, the plane stalls, and gravity takes over.  That's EXACTLY what you see in the video.
 
2013-04-30 10:12:13 PM

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?



You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

 If everything else checks out you can use the pitch rate(and other flight dynamics) combined with elevator position, etc to determine what kind of weight shift would result in that motion.  If the back figured weight shift fits with the weight of a cargo parcel and the available free run it would have if turned loose, you have a good idea that the cargo shifted.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:16 PM

inglixthemad: RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.

Departure stalls are nasty. I mean seriously, never want one to happen to you as a pilot, nasty. A big chunk of stall training covers slow flight and stalls. Power on (full power, 20' - 40' of flaps) simulate departure stalls, except for one thing: you have altitude. That's why they drill power on and power off stalls into pilots. One happens on takeoff, the other at landing. Takeoff and landing: the most likely times for an incident to occur.

The pilot in the video? I can't say what happened, but wow. Power on, right wing stall, wing drop without it looking like the pilot attempted to nose over. Just wow.

Don't take the above as gospel though. The problem is perspective. The pilot may may have tried to push the nose down, but the video's perspective might not show that.


northdallasgazette.com

I cannot help myself.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:26 PM

diaphoresis: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

I haven't flown in over 33 yrs.. TSA means I'll never fly again.

/Well, I had no reason to fly. TSA just cements the decision.


Yes, TSA are idiots and very annoying (and the worst I've seen so far are the TSA at JFK Airport in NY) but it really isn't bad enough to stop someone from traveling. Actually I was surprised that the TSa at Logan Airport in Boston was pretty straightforward and how professional the agents were.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:42 PM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.


Newbies, newbies! The fun really starts when you move up to diacriticals. More fun with foreigners, I say.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:43 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Not a pilot, but my guess is that the additional, sudden weight shift into the back rendered the elevators (small wings below the rudder) useless, causing the stall.


/stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night
 
2013-04-30 10:15:07 PM

fusillade762: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.


I've had dreams of planes crashing (mostly stall manner) too...I wonder if theres some bs subliminal meaning for it.

/One dream actually looked exactly like this, especially the fighting to level out at the end
//I work in air cargo. Biggest fear is for things like this to happen.
 
2013-04-30 10:15:18 PM

Bigjohn3592: RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

 If everything else checks out you can use the pitch rate(and other flight dynamics) combined with elevator position, etc to determine what kind of weight shift would result in that motion.  If the back figured weight shift fits with the weight of a cargo parcel and the available free run it would have if turned loose, you have a good idea that the cargo shifted.


With a flat, low-speed landing like that, they might be able to look at the wreckage to see if any of the cargo looks out of place.  Perhaps look for broken straps or attachment points.
 
2013-04-30 10:15:34 PM

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?


For some reason that reminded me of...

i23.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-30 10:15:48 PM

aedude01: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/


The guy (older man, can't remember his name, former Beech salesman) put it best by saying you can't stop the airport, or a city, from growing. One of the smartest things they do now is "growth planning" by airports. One of the dumbest things they do is not clearing the approach lines for a mile.

Sure, you can't build anything taller than X near an airports nowadays (I've flown into some older fields where power lines and towers make things "interesting" to say the least) but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)
 
2013-04-30 10:16:35 PM

Shostie: JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.

Sometimes I like to sit down for a nice movie with a bowl full of exclamation points.


That's got to be hard on your colon...
 
2013-04-30 10:17:10 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Think about the center of gravity of a plane loaded with a bunch of heavy objects- it's like a seesaw.  If the objects shift aft suddenly, the plane's nose will come up.  If there's enough weight back there, the plane's control surfaces don't have enough authority to point the nose back down.  Plane climbs too fast, loses airspeed and stalls.  Stall recovery requires you to get the nose down, but you can't  because of the too-far aft CG, and you get exactly what the video shows.


And if it wasn't the last aft cargo, it probably wasn't the last aft to go aft.
'
 
2013-04-30 10:18:02 PM

theorellior: Acharne: There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.

You didn't mention the midget gangbang, I notice.


That's because I didn't notice! Wow man. Thanks, I'd have never caught that if I didn't watch the back seats of the other cars so closely.
 
2013-04-30 10:18:20 PM

ZAZ: It looked like he almost had it under control when the ground got in the way. That's why you should build your airport at the edge of a cliff. Of course then you get complaints about landing.


If the load was loose then it would probably shift back to the front making the plane do a nose dive, I would imagine.
 
2013-04-30 10:19:11 PM
Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway
 
2013-04-30 10:19:14 PM

inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/

The guy (older man, can't remember his name, former Beech salesman) put it best by saying you can't stop the airport, or a city, from growing. One of the smartest things they do now is "growth planning" by airports. One of the dumbest things they do is not clearing the approach lines for a mile.

Sure, you can't build anything taller than X near an airports nowadays (I've flown into some older fields where power lines and towers make things "interesting" to say the least) but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)


My thoughts exactly (and my father a former Air Force navigator has made the same comment).  At DCA they built a public park around it.  Not a bad idea really, as most of the time it's only a few joggers and bikers.  It's easier to move them out of the way during a crash than a 3BR McMansion.
 
2013-04-30 10:20:16 PM
Notice how calm and quiet the guy was? I'm calling a false flag. There was something on that plane Obama didn't want going to the UAE. This guy just HAPPENED to be there recording this as calm as you like? This video wasn't supposed to get released. This guy is probably now in GTMO.

/amidoingitright?
 
2013-04-30 10:20:39 PM

inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/

The guy (older man, can't remember his name, former Beech salesman) put it best by saying you can't stop the airport, or a city, from growing. One of the smartest things they do now is "growth planning" by airports. One of the dumbest things they do is not clearing the approach lines for a mile.

Sure, you can't build anything taller than X near an airports nowadays (I've flown into some older fields where power lines and towers make things "interesting" to say the least) but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)


What happens when neighborhoods spring up under flight paths.
 
2013-04-30 10:20:40 PM

jaylectricity: skinink: That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.

What's starting to bother me is that I wouldn't mind going out like that.

I might change my mind as I get closer to the ground.


I would imagine the phrase "on second thought..." would be mixed in with a few last minute expletives.
 
2013-04-30 10:21:20 PM

Nuclear Monk: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

an unmanned blimp carrying a payload of fresh wild flowers?


Aaah.  A peace drone.
 
2013-04-30 10:21:31 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


It's kinda like this: funny.ph
 
2013-04-30 10:21:34 PM
juvandy

When the cargo comes loose during takeoff, it shifts toward the back.  This causes the aircraft to pitch up more than the pilot commands (think of like a teeter totter), and at some point the wing stalls.The center of gravity of the airplane moves to the aft as well.  If the cg goes far enough back, it will cause the plane to become unstable and uncontrollable.  More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Here is another video of cargo shifting after take off.  It's deck video of a C-2 Greyhound getting catapulted from the carrier.  One of the snaps broke, and the cargo got loose.  The story is that the first crew who what supposed to take it said no and got a good a** chewing.  So the Captain found another loadmaster and crew, who were willing to take it and ended up putting it in the drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlDmMwI9cik
 
2013-04-30 10:22:19 PM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me


I likewise would have been using military-grade expletives in the chance that the plane could be lifted by profanity alone.

/My guess is they loaded the plane thinking in pounds, but loaded kilograms instead.
 
2013-04-30 10:22:33 PM

flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway


Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.
 
2013-04-30 10:23:36 PM

Warthog: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Get a dinner plate.  Balance it on the tip of your finger.  Then put a dinner roll on the center of the plate.  You can still balance it, because the center of gravity is still at the center of the plate.  Now move the roll to the edge of the plate.  You can't balance it at the center point, because the center of gravity has moved so far towards the edge of the plate.

In very general terms, in an airplane, you want the center of gravity to be at a point that basically keeps the plane balanced like the plate with the roll at the middle, except with the wings in balance.  If the cargo shifts to the tail, the tail falls down, and no amount of control surface movement on the wings will bring the nose down and tail back up.  Eventually the wing loses lift, the plane stalls, and gravity takes over.  That's EXACTLY what you see in the video.


Someone told me that way back in Vietnam a B-52 did a barrel roll when a loaded fuel tank broke and shifted to the outside of the wing. No idea if it's true or not. Never found confirmation. Possibly just an urban legend.
 
2013-04-30 10:24:10 PM

skinink: Yes, TSA are idiots and very annoying (and the worst I've seen so far are the TSA at JFK Airport in NY) but it really isn't bad enough to stop someone from traveling. Actually I was surprised that the TSa at Logan Airport in Boston was pretty straightforward and how professional the agents were


We managed to get to Europe out of LAX in 2010 without having to go through the X-ray machines (would have ended the trip as I flat out refuse). The worst was actually coming back; all I could think was "this is what the Iron Curtain must have looked like." TSA wasn't bad really; I had a worse experience trying to get to Canada with a full leg cast (I got taken into one of those rooms they tell you about).

Bigjohn3592: You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

. .

Ty again to you and others for the info. I don't love Fark for the articles, but for all the cool shiat you get in the threads.
 
2013-04-30 10:24:32 PM
That is sad, i feel sorry for the crew.

Imagine being on that bus... I would probably have beat the shiat out of the driver for not stopping sooner
 
2013-04-30 10:24:36 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: http://news.google.com/newspaper s?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAIBA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907


Heard about this at FRAC six years later, when I was aout to get my wings. A cuple years later I watched my buddy's S-3 invert and crash off the Enterprise. 3 dead and one who might as well be. Ejected inverted and it looked like the plane fell on them as well. Shiatty day.
 
2013-04-30 10:25:57 PM

labman: Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.


Not really, it shows that they went quick and didn't suffer.
 
2013-04-30 10:27:02 PM
Just goes to show how fragile and weak our technology is.

Something moved. Seven people dead.
 
2013-04-30 10:27:30 PM
boom
 
2013-04-30 10:27:41 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Normally, a plane is "sitting" on its wings, with the center of gravity pretty much on top of the wings.  Something came loose inside as the plane was climbing and all the stuff in the plane slid/rolled/tumbled/crashed towards the back, making the center of gravity move aft, causing the tail of the plane to dip and the nose to rise.  The angle of wings became to high and they lost their lift (this is called a stall) and the plane fell down like a rock.
 
2013-04-30 10:31:17 PM

boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.


Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously
 
2013-04-30 10:32:24 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: Just goes to show how fragile and weak our technology is.

Something moved. Seven people dead.


Aye. We're decades behind where we should be on nylon binding equipment.

Blew all our synthetic fiber research money on that Mars rover contraption that'll never amount to anything. :(
 
2013-04-30 10:32:34 PM

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


Dad was stationed out there early 'Nam era. He loved telling the story of the one access road right off the end of the runway where a guy was tooling along not paying a BIT of attention with the stereo blaring in his cadillac convertible. I THINK he said it was a B52 came in a LOT low at JUST the right time only a few feet above the car. guy literally dove into the passenger seat and the car ran off the road. He  and some buddies were behind him and WERE paying attention so they slowed down to watch. Said it was one of the funniest things he had ever seen at the time.

The guy wasnt hurt, but his car had some issues.
 
2013-04-30 10:34:11 PM

inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:


Princess Juliana International Airport:

4.bp.blogspot.com
q8allinone.com


api.ning.com

farm7.staticflickr.com
 
2013-04-30 10:34:34 PM

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


Whiteman AFB is only about 10 miles south of I-70. If you're very lucky you'll get to see the B-2's doing training runs. Those bastards are scary to see come flying over, especially since you don't hear them until they're right on top of you.
 
2013-04-30 10:34:40 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


farm9.staticflickr.com
 
2013-04-30 10:35:41 PM
Do a barrel roll!
 
2013-04-30 10:36:24 PM

people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....


go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.
 
2013-04-30 10:36:25 PM

aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.


Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.
 
2013-04-30 10:38:00 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Where an aircraft would balance if put on a pin sturdy enough to do so is it's center of gravity (CG). The CG has to be within certain limits for a safe flight, and looser limits for prolonged flight (unlike the accident here). There are a handful of physics reasons for this, but suffice it to say a CG too far forward and the aircraft does not have enough control authority to raise the nose. Vice-versa for a CG well aft of limits.

The farther something gets from wherever it is suspended (a fulcrum) it is called an arm, and the arm x it's weight is the object's moment. Experiment: Try holding an egg in your hand. Then hold it with a short spoon horizontal to the ground. Then hold it with a long spoon, etc. An aircraft with a long deck and heavy objects as cargo has the potential to generate some serious pitching moments.

Asto how loose cargo can effect this: On takeoff, the aircraft is rapidly accelerating. Objects inside the plane want to stay in the same place in space, but anything restraining or attaching them to the airplane make them go along with it, like people in seats. When the restraints holding said objects in place break, the objects tend to try to stay where they are in space - i.e. the plane moves forward, the cargo does not - it moves backward relative to the rest of the aircraft. Add to this the vertical component of rotation and climb and it makes it worse. Also, once one thing breaks free, it often takes everything behind it with it, compounding the issue.

There may, as will likely be the case with this accident, not be enough control authority to overcome the out-of-balance situation this creates.
 
2013-04-30 10:40:29 PM

Z1P2: labman: Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.

Not really, it shows that they went quick and didn't suffer.


Some of the crew's family have seen the video...AVherald has a comments section on this video and some of the relatives have already left responses
 
2013-04-30 10:41:22 PM
Peki: Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

Turning wouldn't be effective because at that steep of a pitch their airspeed is bleeding off pretty quick and the ailerons/spoilers are going to become less effective because they don't has as much airflow.  Also, being that slow would bring the stall on quicker because you lose lift on the wing that is on top of the turn.

At the point they were at, there would have been no way to recover.  In a plane that big, going to an large bank angle (for 747 probably anything over 30 degrees) and letting the nose fall, you are going to need a few thousand feet of altitude to get the airspeed up for control surfaces to be effective again.  And if you have loose cargo, there is a good chance that once you get nose down it can/will slide forward and either crush the flight station or shift the cg so far forward that the controls become too heavy and the aircraft won't respond.
 
2013-04-30 10:41:41 PM

SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.


Also the first FINAL DESTINATION. http://youtu.be/DD_MAz96L70

theMagni: aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.

Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.


As horrible as that all sounds, that actually makes me feel better.  Hopefully the poor guys in the plane went out that quickly.
 
2013-04-30 10:42:02 PM

LesserEvil: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The bird should have been thawed before it went into the canopy.

/Sorry, had to say it.


Old joke is old (but still funny :)
 
2013-04-30 10:42:28 PM
... but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)

What happens when neighborhoods spring up under flight paths.


That happened here in Indy. RIGHT next to a busy GA airport called Eagle Creek they built some houses RIGHT NEXT to the airport. the neighborhood actually shares part of the driveway with the airport. (you turn off the road into the airport driveway (PAST THE AIRPORT SIGN!), and about a third of the way in you turn right into the neighborhood. Its DIRECTLY under the pattern.

They actually had the nerve to start petitioning the FAA and the city to have the airport shut down even though the airport had been there for many decades before, and there was absolutely NO way a buyer would NOT know they were near an airport. You pass a big 6x10' sign welcoming you to an airport, you SEE the airport as you turn into your neighborhood, etc.

At the time of the petition I was a fresh GA pilot that was using that airport and hearing about it made me wanna go all BATF and make the neighborhood look like the Branch Dividian complex. OOh  look, you no longer have a house. Isnt that unfortunate.  NOW GO TAKE YOUR INSURANCE MONEY AND BUILD SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!

We actually were forced to adjust our patterns a bit wider, werent allowed to turn out below 800' during takeoff so we would stay as far away from them as possible, etc.

Self important,
 
2013-04-30 10:42:37 PM
Gross overload.
 
2013-04-30 10:43:54 PM

boywondered: Peki: Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

Turning wouldn't be effective because at that steep of a pitch their airspeed is bleeding off pretty quick and the ailerons/spoilers are going to become less effective because they don't has as much airflow.  Also, being that slow would bring the stall on quicker because you lose lift on the wing that is on top of the turn....


This. By the time you can tell from the video that there's anything wrong it was probably already too late for the pilot to do anything about it.
 
2013-04-30 10:46:08 PM
I was training to be a USAF C-130 Crew Chief when a broken leg sent me back to civilian life so I'm really not getting a kick out of this.
 
2013-04-30 10:46:30 PM

I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?



Maybe it just rolled off the tongue???
 
2013-04-30 10:46:37 PM
who woulda thought FARK was full of professional pilots! simulator nerds!!

ftfm
 
2013-04-30 10:47:53 PM

aedude01: theMagni: aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think? Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario? Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.

Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.

As horrible as that all sounds, that actually makes me feel better. Hopefully the poor guys in the plane went out that quickly.


That's assuming the Chupacabra  didn't get them first on the way down.  Likely why the pilot lost control.
 
2013-04-30 10:48:45 PM
I had a dream last week where a plane did that, except into water. Weird.
 
2013-04-30 10:48:49 PM
One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know
 
2013-04-30 10:48:56 PM

Voiceofreason01: boywondered: Peki: Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

Turning wouldn't be effective because at that steep of a pitch their airspeed is bleeding off pretty quick and the ailerons/spoilers are going to become less effective because they don't has as much airflow.  Also, being that slow would bring the stall on quicker because you lose lift on the wing that is on top of the turn....

This. By the time you can tell from the video that there's anything wrong it was probably already too late for the pilot to do anything about it.


Oh yeah, I figured the Bagram pilot didn't have the time/altitude (in flight, I would imagine it's pretty much the same thing).
 
2013-04-30 10:49:29 PM
... AND BUT A SINGLE fark WAS GIVEN THAT DAY:There was audio for the whole thing but not a single word during the whole crash???

/sure, one later in.. but really?
 
2013-04-30 10:50:29 PM

Flab: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Normally, a plane is "sitting" on its wings, with the center of gravity pretty much on top of the wings.  Something came loose inside as the plane was climbing and all the stuff in the plane slid/rolled/tumbled/crashed towards the back, making the center of gravity move aft, causing the tail of the plane to dip and the nose to rise.  The angle of wings became to high and they lost their lift (this is called a stall) and the plane fell down like a rock.


You can actually kinda simulate this yourself.  When you put your hand out your car window with your thumb kinda curled down in front of your palm mimicking a wing, you will feel a little lift when held parallel to your direction of travel.  As you tilt(angle of attack) up, before the air hits the underside of your palm to lift up, you will notice any lifting effect just drops off and your hand falls.  This is a stall, and is what happens when cargo shifts and changes your angle of attack without enough speed, which causes a stall.
 
2013-04-30 10:50:33 PM
This plane crash scene from "Knowing" kind of tripped me out.  (It does have Nicholas Cage so whatever)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPdwCnwuZ8w

Mainly because I used to fly commercial a lot.  Im not sure what I would do other than shiat my pants if the plane went down.
 
2013-04-30 10:51:32 PM
aedude01: SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.

Also the first FINAL DESTINATION. http://youtu.be/DD_MAz96L70


oh yeah. plus the 'air emergency' series.

you watch all that, what are the chances?
 
2013-04-30 10:52:04 PM

Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously


Possibly, but if that were done at altitude (which is the only way there would be time to do it), the structural stresses on an aircraft that size would tear it apart... not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage.
 
2013-04-30 10:53:07 PM

WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know


Not true. Not likely, but not true. Ever been in a regional jet when they ask passengers to move around? That's why. Some planes would barely "notice." Others would. A lot.

Look up the 1977 University of Evansville Men's basketball team.
 
2013-04-30 10:53:59 PM

theMagni: aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.

Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.


and no nevermind the way it landed would crush your spine in about .015 seconds causing instant death
 
2013-04-30 10:55:58 PM
Holy shiat, those unfortunate bastards... RIP

/one of my coworkers is currently stationed at Bagram, I'll have to talk to him when he gets back CONUS... I hope he didn't see that shiat when it happened.
 
2013-04-30 10:56:03 PM

ElLoco: Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously

Possibly, but if that were done at altitude (which is the only way there would be time to do it), the structural stresses on an aircraft that size would tear it apart... not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage.


The last thing you want to do when you're stalled at low altitude is autorotate. That will end you up in a spin. Looking at the video, that almost happened in this accident. It never got past the incipient stage, though.
 
2013-04-30 10:56:14 PM

ElLoco: Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously

Possibly, but if that were done at altitude (which is the only way there would be time to do it), the structural stresses on an aircraft that size would tear it apart... not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage.


Problem is with 75% of the aircraft weight in the tail, even turning can get the nose down.  Theoretically the only thing that could have helped them is having engines powerful enough to (tow) the dead tail weight into something resembling acceleration, and even fighters, I think the only plane capable of actually accelerating towing its own weight in a vertical climb, is the F-15, and a cargo laden 747 that is not.
 
2013-04-30 10:56:33 PM

Fista-Phobia: Gross overload.


if you mean... by overloading the CG when (if) the cargo broke loose... maybe, but if you mean the 5 vehicles onboard being too heavy... Naa, I worked on the YAL-1 (747-400) the 400 can handle more weight than that.
 
2013-04-30 10:57:14 PM

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


There is a place like that where people park and watch the planes fly in to Tampa's Airport.  There is no beach though.
 
2013-04-30 10:57:25 PM

ElLoco: not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage


Now that was material for some very entertaining mental images. On the one hand, you wouldn't have the cargo causing shift anymore if it all went out a hole. LOL

/okay, I'm sorry I'm laughing in this thread, but my family is like that
 
2013-04-30 10:57:35 PM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


So am I going to hell for laughing at that, and if so, can I sit next to you and you can tell me stories on the way?
 
2013-04-30 11:01:37 PM

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


I worked out there for five months..I was sitting at the bar right there..(A Pittsburgh Steeler bar,how random is that)Funny thing is,The second the plane flew in I realized it was a backpage photo I had seen in Maxim years earlier.
 
2013-04-30 11:03:13 PM

SpaceBison: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

It's kinda like this: [funny.ph image 599x399]


calbert: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 500x372]


Hahahaha those are freaking awesome.
 
2013-04-30 11:05:27 PM

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


This happened at Grissom in the middle 60s too. Drove the guys shoulders down to his hips. My dad was in the personnel office at the time and had to notify the family.
 
2013-04-30 11:05:40 PM

Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.


Yeah.  I thought at first, pilot should have pitched down hard as soon as the looming stall was apparent.  Then I kept watching and thought, s/he was probably full on it but there was no way to correct a fatal CG offset.
 
2013-04-30 11:07:54 PM

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


www.trbimg.com

images.onset.freedom.com

Driving the 405 while planes are landing at John Wayne is always fun
 
2013-04-30 11:09:12 PM
Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.
 
2013-04-30 11:12:23 PM
See air travel is either competently safe or totally fatal

/the only way to win is to play TICK-TAC-TOE
 
2013-04-30 11:12:37 PM

Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously


Looked to me as though the pilot was attempting to turn,  back towards the runway
 
2013-04-30 11:12:55 PM

Cuyose: I think the only plane capable of actually accelerating towing its own weight in a vertical climb, is the F-15


It can do that, so can the F-16, F-22 and F-35. Usually it's with 50% fuel and no load. MiG-29, Su-27, you get the idea. The best one was the Streak Eagle IMO.

Anyways, I wonder if you can fit RATOs on a 747? Flip a panic switch and maybe it could help.
 
2013-04-30 11:13:10 PM
Knowing many pilots (years in Civil Air Patrol, I <3 Cessnas), at least they got to go out doing something they loved. Still, it's a shiatty way to go. If there's an upside, they were working, so life insurance should pay out double or more for for their families. Poor comfort though.
 
2013-04-30 11:13:23 PM

katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.


RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread
 
2013-04-30 11:14:03 PM

scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved


So did you know who.
 
2013-04-30 11:14:06 PM

bhcompy: God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]

[www.trbimg.com image 600x379]

[images.onset.freedom.com image 300x225]

Driving the 405 while planes are landing at John Wayne is always fun


not unusual
 
2013-04-30 11:15:08 PM
I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?
 
2013-04-30 11:15:54 PM

bhcompy: God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]

[www.trbimg.com image 600x379]

[images.onset.freedom.com image 300x225]

Driving the 405 while planes are landing at John Wayne is always fun


San Diego and L.A. same thing.
 
2013-04-30 11:19:56 PM

Matthew Keene: In the pre-video days, like 1865. They just had to say it with words when there was a bad accident.

"The Indianapolis Journal reports the following horrible accident, by which a Mrs. KRONAN lost her life: She was killed in crossing the railroad track on Illinois Street. At the time Mrs. KRONAN was attempting to cross, the Terre Haute train was coming in, while the switch engine of the I. & C. road was taking up seven or eight freight cars to the Terre Haute Depot. The woman attempted to get out of the way of the Terre Haute train, and in doing so was unfortunate enough to get in the way of the freight train. She was thrown upon the track, and two or three cars passed directly over her head, mangling it in a most fearful manner; not a feature of her face was left, and identification was impossible except by her dress. Her brains were scattered about, and even her tongue dislocated from her head, and left by the side of the rail. "


True story, my great grandfather was killed by a train.

Thanks to the news paper article about his wreck (1920's) I know he was decapitated half way through the face!
 
2013-04-30 11:20:55 PM

Satanic_Hamster: I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.


Well, if your training includes video like this where someone screwed up, I can see why.
 
2013-04-30 11:21:07 PM
Who can't learn to set the date/time on his dash-cam?  Remarkable video, and one that will hopefully be used when training people about the importance of securing cargo loads.
 
2013-04-30 11:22:26 PM

wingedkat: HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?

Not much.  He pulls over for a bit, calms his dog, then moves to drive around the wreckage.  When the video cuts off, it appears he made it.


The dog took it hard.
"Whine whine"
(It's falling! It's crashing! It burst into flames! Oh, the humanity!)
 
2013-04-30 11:23:07 PM

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


You're lucky. I had a bowl of parentheses that were full of ampersands. I had a semi colon after that.
 
2013-04-30 11:24:32 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.


A couple more tales I heard about. I was talking to a guy who worked on the refuelling trucks.There was an airshow in the UK, can't remember which one, that had two Mig's doing a routine. They hit each other head on. This crew were directly underneath, half on a break lying on the wing of a Hercules, half working on the truck. They saw the crash happen directly above them and a chunk of one of the Mig's landed on the tail of the Herc. Of the crew working the fuel truck one of the guys ran for cover. Under the fuel truck.
All survived.

The other story I heard third hand. We had a training squadron that had Bulldogs, two seat, side by said, low wing prop trainers. Because it was the then primary RAF trainer it had parachutes, but not ejection seats. The chute was built into the seat back so you climbed onboard, did up the chute five point harness then did up the seat five point harness. Getting out was the reverse, hit the seat harness buckle then the chute buckle and step out.
One day an instructor was flying solo when he had an engine fire, so he bailed out. Except, out of sheer habit, he had undone both buckles and jumped leaving the chute on the plane...

Found the video  of the Mig's crash.
 
2013-04-30 11:24:34 PM

FLMoose: Well, I think it's safe to rule out fuel starvation...


Your joke would have been funnier if you said that it's safe to rule out fuel exhaustion.
Fuel starvation is when you have it, but it isn't getting to the engine. Fuel exhaustion is when you're out of juice.

/The more you know.
 
2013-04-30 11:25:57 PM

redsquid: You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.


This is exactly why I visit FARK.  Well Done!
 
2013-04-30 11:26:40 PM

China White Tea: This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?


The guy sees a plane crash and burst into a huge fireball with no comment.  About a minute later he utters the expletive in question.
Maybe it took him that long to remember someone asking him if he had properly secured the cargo, and him replying "Yeah, sure.  Whatever."
 
2013-04-30 11:27:39 PM

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


It's lack of airflow over control surfaces. They could have stuck their arms out the windows to flap and wouldn't have been faulted for it at that point.
 
2013-04-30 11:28:21 PM
fusillade762:
I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-30 11:29:11 PM

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


It's academic at that point, it mattered not to the outcome other than a small effect of the final position and attitude. The roll happened because either the pilot had some aileron/rudder authority and tried to bank or yaw (unlikely on the yaw), or one wing was more stalled than the other.

To the last point, the 747 has a fair bit of dihedral and a sideslipped condition can cause a rolling moment. Once the aircraft was ballistic, there's a chance that the local wind conditions helped initiate that roll.
 
2013-04-30 11:29:22 PM

LessO2: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Not a pilot, but my guess is that the additional, sudden weight shift into the back rendered the elevators (small wings below the rudder) useless, causing the stall.


/stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night



*I* would have stayed there too, but I was so tired that I just crashed wherever I fell.

/ .......too soon???
 
2013-04-30 11:29:33 PM
Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.
 
2013-04-30 11:30:13 PM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.

RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread


If it helps you, I have you tagged as "flood of terror diarrhea". I tend to joke in bad situations because it's either that or break down and cry and I don't like doing that.
 
2013-04-30 11:30:25 PM
For those interested in the ejection seat stories there are many "fun" inadvertent ejection stories at http://ejectionsite.com/  Check under "Eyewitness to Ejection" My favorite was the one where they guy was flying along, and woke up on the ground. No plane in sight. They finally found it many hundreds of miles away belly landed on some snow. He accidentally tripped the ejection somehow and when the seat went it knocked him out so he didn't know what happened. The least favorite was the kid (in Somalia or something) playing in a plane and got ejected through the hangar roof.

There are also some good explanations of how the seats work

\Former professional simulator nerd
 
2013-04-30 11:30:27 PM

Acharne: HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?

There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.


and the funny thing is that I love horror movies - A Serbian Film, Salo, etc., but an expletive? fark, that's just too much. I'm just happy that I was warned first, you know?
 
2013-04-30 11:30:57 PM
Quantum Apostrophe

Go away, shiathead.  Are you same guy who did Linux_Yes?  Probably orally at a truck stop.. ah, fark it.  Just go away.
 
2013-04-30 11:31:08 PM

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


I'm guessing it could have been the weight imbalance onboard the plane, the wind, or most likely a combination of both. Once the plane stopped climbing, the pilot would've had very little control until it started to fall and pick up speed again. Looks like he did manage to level it out, and probably could've pulled out of it if the ground had been maybe 1000 feet lower.

/not a pilot, just guessing
//RIP crewmen
 
2013-04-30 11:31:09 PM
Anyone else notice the time stamp on the video?
 
2013-04-30 11:31:32 PM
That guy is a shiat driver.
 
2013-04-30 11:31:47 PM

GoldDude: China White Tea: This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?

The guy sees a plane crash and burst into a huge fireball with no comment.  About a minute later he utters the expletive in question.
Maybe it took him that long to remember someone asking him if he had properly secured the cargo, and him replying "Yeah, sure.  Whatever."


...

I could only click 'Funny' just the once, so I also clicked 'Smart.'

I feel bad about doing that, too.
 
2013-04-30 11:32:53 PM

Strangerarranger: Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.


Didn't read the article, huh?
 
2013-04-30 11:32:55 PM

Strangerarranger: Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.


I think you missed the part where it's a cargo plane.
 
2013-04-30 11:33:46 PM

Flint Ironstag: Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.

A couple more tales I heard about. I was talking to a guy who worked on the refuelling trucks.There was an airshow in the UK, can't remember which one, that had two Mig's doing a routine. They hit each other head on. This crew were directly underneath, half on a break lying on the wing of a Hercules, half working on the truck. They saw the crash happen directly above them and a chunk of one of the Mig's landed on the tail of the Herc. Of the crew working the fuel truck one of the guys ran for cover. Under the fuel truck.
All survived.

The other story I heard third hand. We had a training squadron that had Bulldogs, two seat, side by said, low wing prop trainers. Because it was the then primary RAF trainer it had parachutes, but not ejection seats. The chute was built into the seat back so you climbed onboard, did up the chute five point harness then did up the seat five point harness. Getting out was the reverse, hit the seat harness buckle then the chute buckle and step out.
One day an instructor was flying solo when he had an engine fire, so he bailed out. Except, out of sheer habit, he had undone both buckles and jumped leaving the chute on the plane...

Found the video  of the ...


And the 2 Russian pilots have a smoke and walk away.
 
2013-04-30 11:36:04 PM

katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.


Ah...shiat.  I was hopeful there would be people ignorant of what was going on until somewhat closer to impact, but given the titles of everyone on board, they knew exactly what was happening at least from the time the plane appears in the video.

Sucks, RIP.
 
2013-04-30 11:36:58 PM
Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.
 
2013-04-30 11:37:09 PM

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


Not at all. In a stall, both wings stall, but one will always stall more than the other. Especially in a power-on stall like this one (low speed high power). Go grab a ride in a Cessna and ask the pilot to perform a power-on stall for you. Same thing happens.
 
2013-04-30 11:37:57 PM

people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....


we're all missing the point here, which is to give people_are_chumpsencouragement.

i780.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-30 11:39:21 PM

humanshrapnel: katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.

Ah...shiat.  I was hopeful there would be people ignorant of what was going on until somewhat closer to impact, but given the titles of everyone on board, they knew exactly what was happening at least from the time the plane appears in the video.

Sucks, RIP.


I did some Facebook stalking and Jamie Brokaw comes from a long line of pilots, has a young daughter and just got married last summer. farking sad as hell. I can't look at FB anymore tonight. I'm going to have nightmares about that crash. The crash in Cast Away gave me panic attacks. My worst fear is crashing in a jet over water.
 
2013-04-30 11:40:23 PM
My brother flies cargo planes in Afghanistan. I haven't heard from him in a couple days, so I am not getting a kick.....etc
 
2013-04-30 11:40:29 PM

RatOmeter: Quantum Apostrophe

Go away, shiathead.  Are you same guy who did Linux_Yes?  Probably orally at a truck stop.. ah, fark it.  Just go away.


Well geez if we'd known you're into that we'd have called.

Bring some grape jelly.
 
2013-04-30 11:40:49 PM

RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.


Classic execution. I've seen Pittmans do that at air shows at much greater heights, but not a big honking jet.

It's like they took off, pulled all throttles to zero, and yanked the yoke into their ball sacks, standing the plane on its tale.

A whole lot of ugly.
 
2013-04-30 11:40:49 PM

remus: That would match the video... I used to do crash investigations, this isn't going to be pretty.


Oh I don't know. You should see what my gardener did with my yard.  I'll be he could fix up that burn spot in no time.  Little mulch, grass seed, fertilizer, water... oh right no water in the stan.
 
2013-04-30 11:41:20 PM

ko_kyi: Satanic_Hamster: I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

Well, if your training includes video like this where someone screwed up, I can see why.


Yep.  That's the type of personality that job attracts / rewards / promotes.   You WANT anal retentive freaks who obsess with going over all the procedure because THAT'S what the RULES say.  Because if you skip a step you might have shiat like that happen.

On the other hand, playing RPG's / tabletop war gaming w/ them can be trying at times.  F'ing rules lawyers.
 
2013-04-30 11:42:41 PM
Video from another angle

http://youtu.be/NgWm1E_KKhE?t=2m30s
 
2013-04-30 11:43:36 PM

Igor Jakovsky: And the 2 Russian pilots have a smoke and walk away.


Being Russian it was probably smoking and swigging from a bottle of vodak that caused the crash.

/Used to work with a Russian. Showed him a shopped pic I found on the net of a Russian Army Knife. It has eight tools. Three are bottle openers and the other five are corkscrews.
 
2013-04-30 11:45:08 PM

iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.


Was there a guy with the initials J.W.R. on board?
 
2013-04-30 11:45:40 PM

Cats_Lie: Socialism fails again.


Are we blaming Obama or is it Mission Accomplished? I can never tell with the internet anymore.
 
2013-04-30 11:46:19 PM
pro tip - weight and balance.
 
2013-04-30 11:46:50 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAI BA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907
 
2013-04-30 11:48:11 PM

katerbug72: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.

RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread

If it helps you, I have you tagged as "flood of terror diarrhea". I tend to joke in bad situations because it's either that or break down and cry and I don't like doing that.


Sad for the families, but glad my brother wasn't on board. RIP guys....
 
2013-04-30 11:49:22 PM

remus: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Yes, in Germany.  F-4 Phantom.  Martin Baker Mark III seat.  The crew chief wanted to leave this mortal coil, so he did it on purpose.


That actually sounds like a pretty cool method, assuming nobody else was hurt. I'd feel too guilty about the nasty mess I'd be leaving for my coworkers to clean up, but maybe he hated those guys.

I want to go like Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove. Not with the bomb, particularly, just the ride! If I were rich and suicidal I'd pay SpaceX to strap a seat on the side of one of their first stages, and take the round trip*...Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee{splat}

Freefall jumping just wouldn't be the same. Human terminal velocity is way too slow for my last joyride! And I'm too respectful of others' property to steal a biz jet and dive the wings off.
---
*Yep, I know there's a mod for that in Kerbal Space Program,  thanks  :)
 
2013-04-30 11:51:00 PM

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


Wow that's somewhat terrifying.
www.charlock.org
 
2013-04-30 11:55:01 PM

marksman: iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.

Was there a guy with the initials J.W.R. on board?


Johnny Walker Red?
 
2013-04-30 11:55:48 PM

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


It can cause severe physical harm which can result in extreme bodily harm? That seems oddly worded.
 
2013-04-30 11:55:57 PM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting


Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.
 
2013-04-30 11:57:10 PM

iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.


Tell him someone sends a hug from California. My bro works on an aircraft carrier in the gulf; all military is family.

Valiente: RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.

Classic execution. I've seen Pittmans do that at air shows at much greater heights, but not a big honking jet.

It's like they took off, pulled all throttles to zero, and yanked the yoke into their ball sacks, standing the plane on its tale.

A whole lot of ugly.


Makes for a great story though.
 
2013-04-30 11:59:20 PM

eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.


Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?
 
2013-04-30 11:59:56 PM

Mad_Season: Video from another angle

http://youtu.be/NgWm1E_KKhE?t=2m30s


You know what that's just bullsh^t....I mean how did Yosimite Sam drop his guns.Then all of a sudden he is back on the plane with the guns??

//Thoughts.
 
2013-05-01 12:00:37 AM

SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.


Heh, the night before myself and a couple of others were to jump on a plane bound for the himalayas, we watched The Grey, without knowing anything about the movie prior. That caused a couple of nervous laughs...
 
2013-05-01 12:00:46 AM

Charlie Freak: eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.

Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?


I think giant airplanes falling from the sky and exploding elicit an almost universal response.
 
2013-05-01 12:01:18 AM

eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.


He may have.....known something......

[cue conspiracy theories to the left]
[or right]
 
2013-05-01 12:01:26 AM

W.C.fields forever: Mad_Season: Video from another angle

http://youtu.be/NgWm1E_KKhE?t=2m30s

You know what that's just bullsh^t....I mean how did Yosimite Sam drop his guns.Then all of a sudden he is back on the plane with the guns??

//Thoughts.


I meant Thoughts and prayers.
 
2013-05-01 12:03:08 AM

OtherLittleGuy: Crashing Bagram Style.


I think I may be going to hell for laughing at that.
 
2013-05-01 12:04:53 AM

eggrolls: Charlie Freak: eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.

Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?

I think giant airplanes falling from the sky and exploding elicit an almost universal response.


I dunno. Did you watch the Russian dashcam videos of the giant meteor exploding?
 
2013-05-01 12:08:44 AM

Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.


Are they still doing a max angle climbout from Bagram to avoid any nearby SAMs?
 
2013-05-01 12:09:20 AM

Deucetoo: Notice how calm and quiet the guy was? I'm calling a false flag. There was something on that plane Obama didn't want going to the UAE. This guy just HAPPENED to be there recording this as calm as you like? This video wasn't supposed to get released. This guy is probably now in GTMO.

/amidoingitright?


Being a divisive retard injecting politics into a thread that has nothing to do with left/right squabbling? Yeah, I'd say you're managing okay.
 
2013-05-01 12:11:44 AM
False flag.
 
2013-05-01 12:12:13 AM
I don't understand why the audio is so quiet. The mic is clearly capable of picking up voices. If I saw that, even if I was alone in my car, I would say SOMETHING. I would curse, or gasp, or lose my bowels... but there would definitely be a much more interesting audio track.
 
2013-05-01 12:14:15 AM

TheOtherMisterP: I don't understand why the audio is so quiet. The mic is clearly capable of picking up voices. If I saw that, even if I was alone in my car, I would say SOMETHING. I would curse, or gasp, or lose my bowels... but there would definitely be a much more interesting audio track.


I'd be like,  HO  LEE  F*CK ! Dialing 911 at the same time.
 
2013-05-01 12:14:31 AM
THANKS OBAMA
 
2013-05-01 12:16:15 AM
Heard in the cockpit voice recorder........I am goin down down down......Im' goin down down down........

Bruce Springsteen for the  win!

Never to early!
 
2013-05-01 12:17:06 AM
Which Warlord/CIA agent is pissed his shipment of heroin got destroyed?
 
HBK
2013-05-01 12:19:35 AM

WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know


Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?
 
2013-05-01 12:21:43 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved

So did you know who.


Michael Hutchence?
 
2013-05-01 12:25:15 AM

DeadPuppySociety: Quantum Apostrophe: scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved

So did you know who.

Michael Hutchence?


David Carradine?
 
2013-05-01 12:28:18 AM

RatOmeter: Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.

Yeah.  I thought at first, pilot should have pitched down hard as soon as the looming stall was apparent.  Then I kept watching and thought, s/he was probably full on it but there was no way to correct a fatal CG offset.


You can hear the engines screaming because they were on takeoff, but once the weight shifted the pilot only had the option of trying to flatten it out and attempt a bad takeoff, but there was too much weight at the back.

It didn't matter what the pilot did at that point - all the weight was at the back of the plane.  Only the thrust of the engines kept it from falling back down cartoon style.  Instead it climbed almost vertical and twisted down after a stall.  Pretty much what you'd expect with broken cargo.
 
2013-05-01 12:29:35 AM

DeadPuppySociety: Quantum Apostrophe: scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved

So did you know who.

Michael Hutchence?


I was thinking Dale Earnhardt.
 
2013-05-01 12:30:53 AM
Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.
 
2013-05-01 12:31:57 AM

sjcousins: JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.

You're lucky. I had a bowl of parentheses that were full of ampersands. I had a semi colon after that.



Ampersands are the worst thing for any VaJayJay. Makes ya biitchy!
 
2013-05-01 12:33:33 AM

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that, at least for a little bit.  It only impacted nose first once it got the 10 milliseconds of control back, at which point I'm sure all that cargo shifted to the front.
 
2013-05-01 12:34:17 AM

Peki: iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.

Tell him someone sends a hug from California. My bro works on an aircraft carrier in the gulf; all military is family.

Valiente: RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.

Classic execution. I've seen Pittmans do that at air shows at much greater heights, but not a big honking jet.

It's like they took off, pulled all throttles to zero, and yanked the yoke into their ball sacks, standing the plane on its tale.

A whole lot of ugly.

Makes for a great story though.


You win an Internet. Me making a typo like that is pretty rare. I blame the skipper's nerve tonic, personally.
 
2013-05-01 12:36:59 AM

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.


Inertia.
 
2013-05-01 12:38:17 AM

Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that


More like 100,000.
 
2013-05-01 12:38:28 AM

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


I am so going to hell. I laughed way too hard at the A-10 bit.

/Still laughing
//Aisle seat
 
2013-05-01 12:40:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXJ_MfAnjgQ

This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens.
 
2013-05-01 12:41:31 AM
Charlie Freak:
cyberspacedout:
powhound:
ElLoco:


OK, I understand now that you can't do anything against roll in a stall even at full power. Thank you for the answers.
 
2013-05-01 12:42:09 AM

HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.
 
2013-05-01 12:44:06 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that

More like 100,000.


More like 240,000+.
 
2013-05-01 12:44:44 AM

Peki: Strangerarranger: Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.

I think you missed the part where it's a cargo plane.



Technically, the cargo was lost on the ground. It's *c-o-n-t-r-o-l* that was lost in-flight.
 
2013-05-01 12:45:03 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that

More like 100,000.


OK, fark, I didn't look it up, OK?  But it's pretty clear from the video what happened.
 
2013-05-01 12:45:55 AM

base935: Quantum Apostrophe: Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that

More like 100,000.

More like 240,000+.


Yup, not mathing too well tonight.
 
2013-05-01 12:46:01 AM

youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.


This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.
 
2013-05-01 12:46:33 AM

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


Dude. The control system worked.  The load shifted suddenly making it tail heavy, so it was a stall-spin to the left due to too high angle of attack.  Lowering the nose is how you recover from a stall.  They correctly leveled the wings with opposite aileron and lowered the nose with the elevator.  They needed another few thousand feet of altitude to recover successfully.
 
2013-05-01 12:48:15 AM

SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

we're all missing the point here, which is to give people_are_chumpsencouragement.

[i780.photobucket.com image 220x230]



OH, now I see........ Ok, well....... uhhhhhhhhhhhh........ Ok, got it: PRC, don't worry, no matter what happens to the plane, most likely you'll come out ALIVE.

/How does that one bite ya??? Right on the a55, huh?
/And watch out for clouds; some of them have rocks in 'em.
 
HBK
2013-05-01 12:48:56 AM

Charlie Freak: youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.

This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.


Well that's terrifying. Doesn't GPS/radar, whatever give you a good heads up about nearby planes? Did the pilot just fall asleep or something?
 
2013-05-01 12:50:03 AM

Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.

You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that, at least for a little bit.  It only impacted nose first once it got the 10 milliseconds of control back, at which point I'm sure all that cargo shifted to the front.


Thrust doesn't work that way.  Aircraft are design to minimize pitch changes due to thrust, with the exception of certain seaplanes.

Also, you don't get "control back" until you get speed back, and that doesn't happen until the nose drops.

FizixJunkee: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Inertia.


Inertia doesn't cause a aircraft to change from nose-up to nose-down - it tends to keep things where they are.
 
2013-05-01 12:51:32 AM

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.
 
2013-05-01 12:52:49 AM

netringer: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Dude. The control system worked.  The load shifted suddenly making it tail heavy, so it was a stall-spin to the left due to too high angle of attack.  Lowering the nose is how you recover from a stall.  They correctly leveled the wings with opposite aileron and lowered the nose with the elevator.  They needed another few thousand feet of altitude to recover successfully.


If they could have levelled the nose with the elevator, they would have done it before they stalled.  It is a textbook example of how you attempt to recover from a stall - in a normally balanced airplane.

Also, you level the wings with opposite rudder, not aileron, due to adverse yaw.
 
2013-05-01 12:54:54 AM

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Either that or massively bad weight and balance during the load process (if it hasn't been said already in the comments, sorry I haven't read them all).

But yeah, highly suspect the cargo went waay off the CG to the aft. Looks like flaps and gear were full as well so that thing went to the extreme AoA.
 
2013-05-01 12:56:50 AM

flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway


...sigh. Such a tragedy.
 
2013-05-01 12:57:05 AM

HBK: Charlie Freak: youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.

This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.

Well that's terrifying. Doesn't GPS/radar, whatever give you a good heads up about nearby planes? Did the pilot just fall asleep or something?


Normally. GPS no. ATC radar with Mode C transponders, TCAS, and ADS-B yes, but only if everyone is equipped, participating, and paying attention. Your case could have very well been the result of a TCAS resolution advisory (RA) in which the TCAS of both conflicting aircraft have "talked" to each other and advised the pilots of each how to deconflict. This usually involves putting on some climb or descent right the fark now and telling ATC about it afterwards.

It also means a lot of paperwork for a few people.
 
2013-05-01 12:57:05 AM

HBK:  So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


It has nothing to do with the engines.

It's called wake turbulence:

www.faa.gov www.pilotfriend.com
graphics8.nytimes.com

The air gets stirred up in vortexes - little tornadoes - from the tips of the wings of a preceding jet.  The vortexes can last for a long time in still air. They descend below the previous jet's flight path and and spread out horizontally.

They can flip a smaller plane on its back, and they're invisible.  Planes have to try to fly above the flight path of the previous.

Maverick and Goose had an engine flameout when they got so close to the previous jet's exhaust one of their F-14's engine intake starved for clean air and the engine quit.
 
2013-05-01 12:58:53 AM

thedumbone: netringer: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Dude. The control system worked.  The load shifted suddenly making it tail heavy, so it was a stall-spin to the left due to too high angle of attack.  Lowering the nose is how you recover from a stall.  They correctly leveled the wings with opposite aileron and lowered the nose with the elevator.  They needed another few thousand feet of altitude to recover successfully.

If they could have levelled the nose with the elevator, they would have done it before they stalled.  It is a textbook example of how you attempt to recover from a stall - in a normally balanced airplane.

Also, you level the wings with opposite rudder, not aileron, due to adverse yaw.


Yeah. That.  Brain fart.
 
2013-05-01 12:59:50 AM

Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.


The tail is designed to stall after the wing.  A tail stall is a whole different beast and rarely happens outside of icing conditions.

In any event, a stalled tail is producing effectively zero lift.  A flying tail, with the elevator forward, is trying to push the nose down.  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs
 
2013-05-01 12:59:53 AM

HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


Wake turbulence descends through the air column as it dissipates, so you can be a fair distance (1000-1500 ft vertically, 1-2 miles horizontally) away from the generating aircraft  and still feel the effects, especially if you are following or overtaking it at a lower altitude.  The descent was most likely an attempt to get below the turbulence. Think of the wake vortex descending left to right (\) and your aircraft descending right to left (/), the shortest way through the "danger zone" will make an X shape.  That said, unless it was an extreme case,  wake turbulence at altitude is more on an annoyance than a safety issue.

Per the engine question; even if the engines had quit, which they most assuredly didn't, you would not plummet from the sky.  In fact, if you had on noise cancelling headphones you probably wouldn't even notice.
 
2013-05-01 12:59:57 AM

thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.

You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that, at least for a little bit.  It only impacted nose first once it got the 10 milliseconds of control back, at which point I'm sure all that cargo shifted to the front.

Thrust doesn't work that way.  Aircraft are design to minimize pitch changes due to thrust, with the exception of certain seaplanes.

Also, you don't get "control back" until you get speed back, and that doesn't happen until the nose drops.

FizixJunkee: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Inertia.

Inertia doesn't cause a aircraft to change from nose-up to nose-down - it tends to keep things where they are.


Did that damn airplane look like it was minimizing a pitch change?
 
2013-05-01 01:02:30 AM

Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.


That was true of the old F-111.  A number of pilots were actually, measurably, shorter after ejecting and had life long spinal problems.  The newer seats such as the ACES II do not have this problem.  They ramp up their speed over a short time to accelerate the pilot out of the aircraft rather than reaching full thrust instantly.  That protects them from the instantaneous G forces that caused the spinal problems.
 
2013-05-01 01:03:27 AM

Tony_Pepperoni: Anyone else notice the time stamp on the video?


Anyone else notice the dog yelping when the guy started to back up?  He must have stomped on it or something.
 
2013-05-01 01:03:33 AM
To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.
 
2013-05-01 01:05:28 AM
 
HBK
2013-05-01 01:05:38 AM
Thank you guys for all the explanations. Sorry I derailed the thread a bit, it was something I'd been curious about for a while.
 
2013-05-01 01:09:09 AM
Horrifying video. Wonder if any Farkers have unknowingly been in this aircraft -- she started life in the early 90s as an Air France Combi (2/3 passenger, 1/3 cargo on the main deck), and wasn't converted to a BCF until about 2007, so that's 14+ years in passenger service.
 
2013-05-01 01:09:30 AM

Lsherm: thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Aircraft are design to minimize pitch changes due to thrust, with the exception of certain seaplanes.

Did that damn airplane look like it was minimizing a pitch change?


Nope, but thrust had nothing to due with it.  A center of gravity that wasn't in the tail did.

Put another way: once it stalled, it became a glorified lawn dart, with weight in the nose and fins on the tail.  The elevator must have been acting to bring the nose up, and then the nose fell once the elevator/wing became ineffective.
 
2013-05-01 01:09:46 AM

ThisIsntMe: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

Dessert, I'm guessing.


Well, what else would you do?  It's not like you should skip the pudding.

Seriously, the first time I worked the accident investigation lab, I couldn't eat that day.  By the time I had done it a few times, I could eat while working.  You just get used to it.
 
2013-05-01 01:10:10 AM

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


Once it stalled it was effectively free falling. In freefall you have zero g, so where the weight is suddely doesn't matter. Looks like they went over sideways where they would have been ballistic where you still have zero g so again the weight being at the back wouldn't have mattered.
Once the nose was down and they started to get some lift, and therefore g, back the load if it was loose could have rolled to the front where it would now stop them pulling up, not that they had enough altitude anyway.
 
2013-05-01 01:11:02 AM
Growing up I've had a few friends who lost their dads to military aircraft crashes.  My old man was in 3 separate helo crashes.  Just... fark....

/need to go have a drink and a tear
//farking memories
 
2013-05-01 01:11:27 AM

neilbradley: To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.


That's just what they'd be expecting.

/I'm sure that they tried to do exactly that, but were unable to for unknown reasons.
 
2013-05-01 01:11:55 AM

HBK: It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out. Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."


You can run into wind shear in otherwise quiet air. One moment the plane is flying along at 400 knots then the wind direction changes and now the plane is flying at 350 knots and stalls.  Since you have sufficient airspeed the pilot still maintains control, but you sink like a stone.  If you think in level flight the lift is just enough to keep the plane level.  If the apparent airspeed or angle of attack changes suddenly, then you can have substantially less lift than you need to keep the plane in the air.
 
2013-05-01 01:14:11 AM

HBK: Thank you guys for all the explanations. Sorry I derailed the thread a bit, it was something I'd been curious about for a while.


This one doesn't mind. Like I said somewhere, I like Fark because of all the goodies you learn in the comments. The article I couldn't give a fark less about (except for pure social currency and knowing what's going on in the world).

And the best part about threads like these is you usually get a few techies/SMEs/etc. who outgeek each other. Even if they don't agree, you still get a pretty decent look at both sides of the argument enough to form your own opinion about it.

/and any BS gets filtered REALLY quickly
 
2013-05-01 01:14:27 AM

neilbradley: To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.


If the load has move backwards, or was loaded too far back, the controls are not enough to put the nose down.
A few years ago a commuter prop had too much luggage in the tail and did exactly the same thing on takeoff.
 
2013-05-01 01:15:12 AM

thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.

You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that, at least for a little bit.  It only impacted nose first once it got the 10 milliseconds of control back, at which point I'm sure all that cargo shifted to the front.

Thrust doesn't work that way.  Aircraft are design to minimize pitch changes due to thrust, with the exception of certain seaplanes.

Also, you don't get "control back" until you get speed back, and that doesn't happen until the nose drops.

FizixJunkee: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Inertia.

Inertia doesn't cause a aircraft to change from nose-up to nose-down - it tends to keep things where they are.


Wow lot of armchair flightsim pilots in the comments tonight.

You are correct. Inertia has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with the laminar to turbulent flow of air, the former generating more lift. The wing design of that aircraft is very similar to the modern 747-8 series which employs slats and Kruger flaps which send that transition point way far back so that you can achieve very very high angles of attack and reduced airflow conditions before the turbulent flow creeps too far back up the camber, reducing lift and increasing stall risk. As seen in the video, she already had a huuuuge AoA with big big wings and slats full out so it wasn't a controls issue - she had to have enough control to get into that configuration. And her engines were screaming. Highly highly likely a load shift caused by something not being secured or improper loading to begin with once she cleared ground effect and those big muscles on her wings took over and lost the arm wrestling match.
 
2013-05-01 01:17:17 AM
phalaeo:This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens.

...and caused the engines to stall..." ARRGH!  NO!

The WINGS stalled.
 
2013-05-01 01:17:18 AM

neilbradley: To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.


You won't be able to if your cargo is all aft of your center of gravity. My old flight instructor died this way in a 172 believe it or not. It can happen to the best of us if we're not careful.
 
2013-05-01 01:17:45 AM

Flint Ironstag: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Once it stalled it was effectively free falling. In freefall you have zero g, so where the weight is suddely doesn't matter.


Physics doesn't work that way on things with air resistance.  They tend to fall heavy-part first.

Build a paper airplane.  Check that it flies normally.  Tape a bunch of coins to the nose/tail and throw it towards the ceiling.  Notice now it crashes.

Now, a paper airplane is more Newton that Bernoulli, but the difference is moot when you're stalled anyway.
 
2013-05-01 01:21:55 AM

thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.

The tail is designed to stall after the wing.  A tail stall is a whole different beast and rarely happens outside of icing conditions.

In any event, a stalled tail is producing effectively zero lift.  A flying tail, with the elevator forward, is trying to push the nose down.  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs


Bingo. If your tail is stalled, you're in a whole new and exciting world of aerobatic flight, whether your rig is rated for it or not. And if that's not your intent, soiled underwear to go along with it.
 
2013-05-01 01:22:49 AM

flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway


damn, because sometimes you are just not quite farked enough already...
 
2013-05-01 01:23:46 AM

Smeggy Smurf: Growing up I've had a few friends who lost their dads to military aircraft crashes.  My old man was in 3 separate helo crashes.  Just... fark....

/need to go have a drink and a tear
//farking memories


Man hugs buddy. Man hugs.
 
2013-05-01 01:24:22 AM

netringer: phalaeo:This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens.

...and caused the engines to stall..." ARRGH!  NO!

The WINGS stalled.


I noticed that too.  You would be amazed how many times I had this conversation during my flight training:

Friend/Mom/Coworker:  How was your flight?
Me: Pretty good, we just went out to the practice area and practiced some stalls.
Friend/Mom/Coworker: So is that like in case you run out of gas or something?

I eventually stopped trying to explain aerodynamic stalls and just started saying yes.  My mother still has not grasped the concept that a stall is not plummeting from the air because the engine stopped.
 
2013-05-01 01:27:05 AM

Void_Beavis: thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

You are correct. Inertia has nothing to do with it.


Hey, thanks!

As seen in the video, she already had a huuuuge AoA with big big wings and slats full out so it wasn't a controls issue - she had to have enough control to get into that configuration.

My point is exactly that the controls surfaces put her there.  I think it was either uncommanded, suicidal, or possibly something like maintenance mis-rigging.

And her engines were screaming. Highly highly likely a load shift caused by something not being secured or improper loading to begin with once she cleared ground effect and those big muscles on her wings took over and lost the arm wrestling match.

Ground effect?  Really?  What does a reduction in induced drag have to do with it?  There was no force able to drop that nose that became more pronounced at reduced speeds other than CG.
 
2013-05-01 01:29:58 AM
I am at BAF (Bagram).  I was in my office making sure my chair didnt move by sitting in it and I was in and out of doozing off.  Heard the BOOM thought nothing of it cause we have control dets all the time and usually they announce them but every now again they dont.  Any who our loggy came in and said a big ass plane just crashed.  We all went out side and seen the giant fire and GIANT smoke plume.   We stay kinda close to the flight line and they said we may have to evacuate if the smoke gets near us (it didnt).   It was really windy and cold that day.   About an hour after the crash it rained like a mofo.  Hail and everything for a good hour.    I only took one picture of the aftermath.   sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-05-01 01:30:01 AM
I'm flying out of Bagram in 4 days.  Really wish I'd skipped this link.
 
2013-05-01 01:30:22 AM

JH3675: netringer: phalaeo:This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens

....and caused the engines to stall..." ARRGH!  NO!

The WINGS stalled.

I noticed that too.  You would be amazed how many times I had this conversation during my flight training:


Okay, before this thread, I'd have been hard pressed to tell you the difference between a wing stall and an engine stall. If you replaced the word "wing" with "lift," THAT I probably could have figured out.
 
2013-05-01 01:31:03 AM

Voiceofreason01: Whiteman AFB is only about 10 miles south of I-70. If you're very lucky you'll get to see the B-2's doing training runs. Those bastards are scary to see come flying over, especially since you don't hear them until they're right on top of you.


Maybe you don't hear them in a car but you can hear them pretty far away if they are flying low, if they are up high you won't hear them at all. But yea more or less lucky to see them these days, they don't fly them like they used to around here. I used to live in Warrensburg, MO and would see them flying over all the time. I believe their absence from the skies around here came when they were used during Shock and Awe. I still see them on 50 while driving through Knob but not too often.

/Oh I must also say that flying in the B-2 flight simulator on Whiteman was the most kick ass flight sim I've ever had the chance to play.
 
2013-05-01 01:31:51 AM

thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.

The tail is designed to stall after the wing.  A tail stall is a whole different beast and rarely happens outside of icing conditions.

In any event, a stalled tail is producing effectively zero lift.  A flying tail, with the elevator forward, is trying to push the nose down.  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs


No, it doesn't fit the profile of a deep stall. But I'm not buying that it would have been tail down all the way to the ground with an aft load shift, especially when it looks like it went into an incipient spin and had plenty of altitude for other dynamics to factor.

Take an aircraft at cruise altitude and suddenly put the CG far aft - it's not going to simply fly tail first to the ground. it's going to oscillate. Add a little autorotation when it's at the zenith of the oscillation and I guarantee the nose will come down pretty quickly.

For it to go tail-first, it would have to happen before any oscillation could occur or autorotation imparted - and the latter would imply it was one hell of a stable stall.

CPL, AMEL, ASEL (you win!)
 
2013-05-01 01:32:57 AM
Warthog
juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Get a dinner plate. Balance it on the tip of your finger. Then put a dinner roll on the center of the plate. You can still balance it, because the center of gravity is still at the center of the plate. Now move the roll to the edge of the plate. You can't balance it at the center point, because the center of gravity has moved so far towards the edge of the plate.

In very general terms, in an airplane, you want the center of gravity to be at a point that basically keeps the plane balanced like the plate with the roll at the middle, except with the wings in balance. If the cargo shifts to the tail, the tail falls down, and no amount of control surface movement on the wings will bring the nose down and tail back up. Eventually the wing loses lift, the plane stalls, and gravity takes over. That's EXACTLY what you see in the video.


A dinner roll did THAT?
 
2013-05-01 01:34:49 AM

thedumbone: Void_Beavis: thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

You are correct. Inertia has nothing to do with it.

Hey, thanks!

As seen in the video, she already had a huuuuge AoA with big big wings and slats full out so it wasn't a controls issue - she had to have enough control to get into that configuration.

My point is exactly that the controls surfaces put her there.  I think it was either uncommanded, suicidal, or possibly something like maintenance mis-rigging.

And her engines were screaming. Highly highly likely a load shift caused by something not being secured or improper loading to begin with once she cleared ground effect and those big muscles on her wings took over and lost the arm wrestling match.

Ground effect?  Really?  What does a reduction in induced drag have to do with it?  There was no force able to drop that nose that became more pronounced at reduced speeds other than CG.


Oh I'm not arguing it wasn't a CG issue. In fact it's hard to say it wasn't by what I saw in the video. I'm agreeing with your assessment. And yes it could have been a control issue, but given this is a cargo plane and the evidence provided in the video alone it seems far more likely (to me anyway) it was a loading issue, either caused by shift or improper loading to begin with.

Look she had to get off the ground to begin with, so the elevators were at least somewhat working.
 
2013-05-01 01:35:47 AM

thedumbone: Void_Beavis: thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

You are correct. Inertia has nothing to do with it.

Hey, thanks!

As seen in the video, she already had a huuuuge AoA with big big wings and slats full out so it wasn't a controls issue - she had to have enough control to get into that configuration.

My point is exactly that the controls surfaces put her there.  I think it was either uncommanded, suicidal, or possibly something like maintenance mis-rigging.

And her engines were screaming. Highly highly likely a load shift caused by something not being secured or improper loading to begin with once she cleared ground effect and those big muscles on her wings took over and lost the arm wrestling match.

Ground effect?  Really?  What does a reduction in induced drag have to do with it?  There was no force able to drop that nose that became more pronounced at reduced speeds other than CG.


Is this the beginning of a conspiracy theory?

I need you to explain, in simple terms, why you think that plane took off ass down and nose up right off the runway to the point that it fell into a stall that suddenly shifted.  In a cargo plane.  Use physics.
 
2013-05-01 01:37:00 AM

thedumbone: neilbradley: To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.

That's just what they'd be expecting.

/I'm sure that they tried to do exactly that, but were unable to for unknown reasons.


The ground was too close to the plane? That seems pretty knowable.
 
2013-05-01 01:41:08 AM

netringer: phalaeo:This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens.

...and caused the engines to stall..." ARRGH!  NO!

The WINGS stalled.


You can "stall" the engines too if you take enough of the airstream away from the intakes.
 
2013-05-01 01:41:40 AM

Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.

The tail is designed to stall after the wing.  A tail stall is a whole different beast and rarely happens outside of icing conditions.

In any event, a stalled tail is producing effectively zero lift.  A flying tail, with the elevator forward, is trying to push the nose down.  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs

No, it doesn't fit the profile of a deep stall. But I'm not buying that it would have been tail down all the way to the ground with an aft load shift, especially when it looks like it went into an incipient spin and had plenty of altitude for other dynamics to factor.

Take an aircraft at cruise altitude and suddenly put the CG far aft - it's not going to simply fly tail first to the ground. it's going to oscillate. Add a little autorotation when it's at the zenith of the oscillation and I guarantee the nose will come down pretty quickly.

For it to go tail-first, it would have to happen before any oscillation could occur or autorotation imparted - and the latter would imply it was one hell of a stable stall.

CPL, AMEL, ASEL (you win!)


Is there room for a CPL(H)?
 
2013-05-01 01:42:30 AM

Lsherm: I need you to explain, in simple terms, why you think that plane took off ass down and nose up right off the runway


Pilot thought he could maneuver it in the same manner as an F-22 at take off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ti9GwnlVs
 
2013-05-01 01:42:44 AM

Lsherm: thedumbone: Void_Beavis: thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

You are correct. Inertia has nothing to do with it.

Hey, thanks!

As seen in the video, she already had a huuuuge AoA with big big wings and slats full out so it wasn't a controls issue - she had to have enough control to get into that configuration.

My point is exactly that the controls surfaces put her there.  I think it was either uncommanded, suicidal, or possibly something like maintenance mis-rigging.

And her engines were screaming. Highly highly likely a load shift caused by something not being secured or improper loading to begin with once she cleared ground effect and those big muscles on her wings took over and lost the arm wrestling match.

Ground effect?  Really?  What does a reduction in induced drag have to do with it?  There was no force able to drop that nose that became more pronounced at reduced speeds other than CG.

Is this the beginning of a conspiracy theory?

I need you to explain, in simple terms, why you think that plane took off ass down and nose up right off the runway to the point that it fell into a stall that suddenly shifted.  In a cargo plane.  Use physics.


And this is what I was trying to ask albiet in a nicer "not arguing on the Internet" kind of way.

As Lsherm has correctly pointed out, she had just cleared the runway and was already in a high stall configuration and damn near stopped mid-air. The elevators were controlled to get her off the ground. So either the load wasn't tied down or broke loose and went aft on a set of loading tracks on takeoff, or she was improperly loaded for CG to begin with.
 
2013-05-01 01:43:35 AM

Peki: JH3675: netringer: phalaeo:This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens

....and caused the engines to stall..." ARRGH!  NO!

The WINGS stalled.

I noticed that too.  You would be amazed how many times I had this conversation during my flight training:

Okay, before this thread, I'd have been hard pressed to tell you the difference between a wing stall and an engine stall. If you replaced the word "wing" with "lift," THAT I probably could have figured out.


I get that, and most people never have a need to know the difference.  I just found it amusing that literally no one, aside from a few engineer types, knew what the hell I was talking about.
 
2013-05-01 01:44:37 AM
I would have just rolled it over, no problem.  /itg
 
2013-05-01 01:47:07 AM

JH3675: Peki: JH3675: netringer: phalaeo:This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens

....and caused the engines to stall..." ARRGH!  NO!

The WINGS stalled.

I noticed that too.  You would be amazed how many times I had this conversation during my flight training:

Okay, before this thread, I'd have been hard pressed to tell you the difference between a wing stall and an engine stall. If you replaced the word "wing" with "lift," THAT I probably could have figured out.

I get that, and most people never have a need to know the difference.  I just found it amusing that literally no one, aside from a few engineer types, knew what the hell I was talking about.


I'm sure these poor people don't give a fark about it right now either.

What a shame. I'm going to have nightmares after watching this shiat tonight.
 
2013-05-01 01:47:13 AM

aedude01: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/




Picture taken from beach bar, If I remember correctly.
mw2.google.com
 
2013-05-01 01:47:15 AM

Tiberius Sulla: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

I am so going to hell. I laughed way too hard at the A-10 bit.

/Still laughing
//Aisle seat


I don't mind the window seat as long as you're not fat and bogarting the arm rests.

It's funny now, but the stench in that lab was unbelievable and it took an entire week with the A/C on full to vent it out after we got the exhibits out.  I'll take a decapitation any day over a high speed body cavity smashing.

This crash will be straight up for the investigators.  The bodies will be largely intact with massive burn injuries.  I suspect this will be figured out largely from the black box for this one.  It will probably show clues that the CG suddenly shifted, which will be deduced from the sudden reaction of the aircraft and the resulting attempts to fight it.  My best guess is that a tie down strap/chain came loose.  One of those big vehicles rolled towards the back, and the rest is history.
 
2013-05-01 01:48:52 AM

Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Take an aircraft at cruise altitude and suddenly put the CG far aft - it's not going to simply fly tail first to the ground. it's going to oscillate. Add a little autorotation when it's at the zenith of the oscillation and I guarantee the nose will come down pretty quickly.

For it to go tail-first, it would have to happen before any oscillation could occur or autorotation imparted - and the latter would imply it was one hell of a stable stall.


I like your reasoning a lot!  Of course, being a CFI, I have a few small issues.  :)  This airplane didn't "simply fly tail first in the ground" either.  It stalled first, which completely changes things.  It ceases to become an aerodynamic issue and is mostly CG - and that's why I keep harping about the nose-first impact.

Oscillation happens with things that are neutrally stable, which is the usual case for silly pilots trying to push things a little too far, so that's what they write in the books.  A CG aft of the certified envelope is not necessarily aft of the center of lift.  An "Aft CG" from a POH standpoint can be a neutral CG from an aerodynaic standpoint.  Enough weight in the tail to force the nose this high is highly stable - just in a tail-first sort of way.  Static and dynamic stability are both in play here.

CPL, AMEL, ASEL (you win!)

Nice!  I keep telling people to get their CPL, but they just don't listen.  The maneuvers seem so pointless until you suddenly find that you're a much better pilot.
 
2013-05-01 01:53:05 AM

Void_Beavis: thedumbone: Void_Beavis: thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Oh I'm not arguing it wasn't a CG issue. In fact it's hard to say it wasn't by what I saw in the video. I'm agreeing with your assessment. And yes it could have been a control issue, but given this is a cargo plane and the evidence provided in the video alone it seems far more likely (to me anyway) it was a loading issue, either caused by shift or improper loading to begin with.

Look she had to get off the ground to begin with, so the elevators were at least somewhat working.


I think that we're misunderstanding each other.  I'm saying that it was NOT a CG issue.  The nose dropped in the stall, just as it should have, so the CG was reasonable.  The elevators weren't just working, they were doing too much and caused the event!

This is consistent with a yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go event, and not consistent with a put-a-huge-weight-in-the-tail event.
 
2013-05-01 01:57:09 AM

JH3675: Peki: JH3675: netringer: ....and caused the engines to stall..." ARRGH!  NO!

The WINGS stalled.

I noticed that too.  You would be amazed how many times I had this conversation during my flight training:

Okay, before this thread, I'd have been hard pressed to tell you the difference between a wing stall and an engine stall. If you replaced the word "wing" with "lift," THAT I probably could have figured out.

I get that, and most people never have a need to know the difference.  I just found it amusing that literally no one, aside from a few engineer types, knew what the hell I was talking about.


I had an endless conversation with a thick-headed maroon telling me that when his buddy landed the Cessna the ENGINE STALL horn went off.  (If the stall horn sounds during the flare in landing, that's a good landing. You want to be in a wing stall to be going as slow as possible.)  No matter how many times I said it wasn't the engine he kept telling me that he didn't want to fly in planes where the engine stalled.

"Witnesses heard the airplane's engine stall before the crash."  No they didn't.
 
2013-05-01 01:57:11 AM

marksman: katerbug72: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.

RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread

If it helps you, I have you tagged as "flood of terror diarrhea". I tend to joke in bad situations because it's either that or break down and cry and I don't like doing that.

Sad for the families, but glad my brother wasn't on board. RIP guys....


Saying a prayer for all these families tonight. What a shame. Sucks.
 
2013-05-01 01:58:44 AM

remus: Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.

That was true of the old F-111.  A number of pilots were actually, measurably, shorter after ejecting and had life long spinal problems.  The newer seats such as the ACES II do not have this problem.  They ramp up their speed over a short time to accelerate the pilot out of the aircraft rather than reaching full thrust instantly.  That protects them from the instantaneous G forces that caused the spinal problems.




I was told while in, that the F-16 was the worst due to steeply reclined position.
 
2013-05-01 02:00:21 AM
If the armor was loose, couldn't it come forward as well?  Maybe that's why it went so nose down...
 
2013-05-01 02:00:45 AM

thedumbone: I think that we're misunderstanding each other.  I'm saying that it was NOT a CG issue.  The nose dropped in the stall, just as it should have, so the CG was reasonable.  The elevators weren't just working, they were doing too much and caused the event!

This is consistent with a yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go event, and not consistent with a put-a-huge-weight-in-the-tail event.


Because 747 pilots have no idea that yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go will lead to a stall/spin but you do?
Good Fark handle.
 
2013-05-01 02:02:14 AM

thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Take an aircraft at cruise altitude and suddenly put the CG far aft - it's not going to simply fly tail first to the ground. it's going to oscillate. Add a little autorotation when it's at the zenith of the oscillation and I guarantee the nose will come down pretty quickly.

For it to go tail-first, it would have to happen before any oscillation could occur or autorotation imparted - and the latter would imply it was one hell of a stable stall.

I like your reasoning a lot!  Of course, being a CFI, I have a few small issues.  :)  This airplane didn't "simply fly tail first in the ground" either.  It stalled first, which completely changes things.  It ceases to become an aerodynamic issue and is mostly CG - and that's why I keep harping about the nose-first impact.

Oscillation happens with things that are neutrally stable, which is the usual case for silly pilots trying to push things a little too far, so that's what they write in the books.  A CG aft of the certified envelope is not necessarily aft of the center of lift.  An "Aft CG" from a POH standpoint can be a neutral CG from an aerodynaic standpoint.  Enough weight in the tail to force the nose this high is highly stable - just in a tail-first sort of way.  Static and dynamic stability are both in play here.


Okay, either I must be arguing against someone else's point that I attributed to you, or I totally misread your argument earlier. I'm still not sold either way on mechanical vs pilot error vs load shift, but me harping on the tail down thing is likely misdirected. I think. I'm so tired, I'm not going back and re-reading the thread tonight. Hah. I think I need to sleep.

CPL, AMEL, ASEL (you win!)

Nice!  I keep telling people to get their CPL, but they just don't listen.  The maneuvers seem so pointless until you suddenly find that you're a much better pilot.


No joke. I was 99% of the way to being a CFI - one review flight and the practical itself left, when I decided to hang it up. Should have at least converted the passed written into a ground instructor certificate...
 
2013-05-01 02:02:42 AM

lewismarktwo: If the armor was loose, couldn't it come forward as well?  Maybe that's why it went so nose down...


It could have, but not until after the nose went down.  It couldn't have caused the nose to go down to begin with.
 
2013-05-01 02:03:07 AM

HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?


Gilbert Gottfried runs into frame and, with arms extended, shouts -- "The Aristocrats!"
 
2013-05-01 02:13:31 AM

netringer: thedumbone: I think that we're misunderstanding each other.  I'm saying that it was NOT a

Because 747 pilots have no idea that yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go will lead to a stall/spin but you do?
Good Fark handle.


I never said that the pilots didn't know about stalls.  Certainly, they did.  When I mentioned "human error" earlier I was mostly referring to suicide, maintenance mis-rigging, or something obscure.

I could very well be wrong - and I'd love to be convinced that I am.  I was hoping for well-reasoned arguments, not ad hominem.  I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I am a flight instructor, and I did just happen to give some instruction (including stalls) to a 727 pilot this afternoon, although that's pretty unusual for me!
 
2013-05-01 02:20:55 AM
1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.
 
2013-05-01 02:21:19 AM

Charlie Freak: Nice! I keep telling people to get their CPL, but they just don't listen. The maneuvers seem so pointless until you suddenly find that you're a much better pilot.

No joke. I was 99% of the way to being a CFI - one review flight and the practical itself left, when I decided to hang it up. Should have at least converted the passed written into a ground instructor certificate...


D'oh!  If it makes you feel any better, I don't think you could have converted it anyway.  It's the same question bank, but it's a different test code.  Well, at least it was a few years ago.

Also, don't pay too much attention to my earlier statements on static/dynamic stability and oscillations.  The more I think about them, the less I like them, though it doesn't change my conclusions regarding this accident.

It's been a pleasure, but it's past my bedtime.  Good night!
 
2013-05-01 02:31:43 AM

Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.


No.  If the CG is too far back, it's doesn't matter which way you turn, the tail will always point down.
 
2013-05-01 02:38:24 AM
Google "Fine Air 101" which was a DC-8F crash out of Miami back in the late 90's, pretty much the same scenario.

Except it was carrying blue jeans instead of armored vehicles.
 
2013-05-01 02:40:30 AM
You jerkoffs trolling about this being a false flag, does it make you feel all manly and "bigger" now!?

People are DEAD and you witless freaks think it's amusing to shart your foul Alex Jones monstrousities on them.

Go choke on a bowl of shredded flags.
 
2013-05-01 02:51:09 AM
But there's just no way an airplane crash can produce such a big explosion. Just ask any of the "Truthers".
 
2013-05-01 03:19:09 AM
RIGHT ON! DEATH ON VIDEEOOOZ!!!
 
2013-05-01 03:19:43 AM

StretchCannon: 1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.


You are so full of shait, it's amazing your chair isn't experiencing CG shift.
 
2013-05-01 03:20:40 AM

Lsherm: I need you to explain, in simple terms, why you think that plane took off ass down and nose up right off the runway to the point that it fell into a stall that suddenly shifted.  In a cargo plane.  Use physics.


This could be completely wrong, but I've been told that Bagram, being in a combat area, means that the planes are supposed to take off and immediately go for altitude to avoid surface-to-air missiles.

So, the plane gets airborne, the pilot points the nose up quite a bit more sharply than your typical Southwest Airlines commuter.  One of the vehicles in cargo isn't secured properly, and goes backwards with enough impulse to break loose.  Center of gravity shifts way back, end of story.

A flatter takeoff might not have given the cargo item enough momentum to break free.  Did I get that right?
 
2013-05-01 03:38:56 AM

italie: StretchCannon: 1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.

You are so full of shait, it's amazing your chair isn't experiencing CG shift.


You are so full of insults, you can't justify your position, present evidence that contradicts mine, or accomplish much but make a fool of yourself.
 
2013-05-01 03:54:01 AM
Shostie:

Sometimes I like to sit down for a nice movie with a bowl full of exclamation points.

I'm sorry Shawstie, us liters down here sometimes miss the obvious ones.


THOSE WEREN'T EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!
NSFW.
penis.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3DRa9yfQ0eFsMEMGz9VNYWRsxu 8w TWGKN3Z4qUXy6F3YUhfNxSyH4weRl
 
2013-05-01 03:57:35 AM

netringer: HBK:  So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

It has nothing to do with the engines.

It's called wake turbulence:

[www.faa.gov image 550x399] [www.pilotfriend.com image 300x354]
[graphics8.nytimes.com image 600x280]

The air gets stirred up in vortexes - little tornadoes - from the tips of the wings of a preceding jet.  The vortexes can last for a long time in still air. They descend below the previous jet's flight path and and spread out horizontally.

They can flip a smaller plane on its back, and they're invisible.  Planes have to try to fly above the flight path of the previous.

Maverick and Goose had an engine flameout when they got so close to the previous jet's exhaust one of their F-14's engine intake starved for clean air and the engine quit.


I saw a plane flying right below a cloud layer and you could see its flight path in the clouds. Another day, there was a fairly low thin cloud layer moving perpindicular to the runway and you could see a line of holes in the clouds where each plane had flown through.
 
2013-05-01 04:00:25 AM

StretchCannon: italie: StretchCannon: 1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.

You are so full of shait, it's amazing your chair isn't experiencing CG shift.

You are so full of insults, you can't justify your position, present evidence that contradicts mine, or accomplish much but make a fool of yourself.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was the one throwing out speculative conclusions based upon a complete lack of sound and measurable logic. I feel so silly.
 
2013-05-01 04:02:50 AM

italie: StretchCannon: italie: StretchCannon: 1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.

You are so full of shait, it's amazing your chair isn't experiencing CG shift.

You are so full of insults, you can't justify your position, present evidence that contradicts mine, or accomplish much but make a fool of yourself.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was the one throwing out speculative conclusions based upon a complete lack of sound and measurable logic. I feel so silly.


To be fair... You both seem like juvenile piece of shiat scum.
 
2013-05-01 04:04:14 AM

tuna fingers: italie: StretchCannon: italie: StretchCannon: 1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.

You are so full of shait, it's amazing your chair isn't experiencing CG shift.

You are so full of insults, you can't justify your position, present evidence that contradicts mine, or accomplish much but make a fool of yourself.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was the one throwing out speculative conclusions based upon a complete lack of sound and measurable logic. I feel so silly.

To be fair... You both seem like juvenile piece of shiat scum.


Welcome to the party.
 
2013-05-01 04:07:09 AM

JH3675: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.


. . . .

Wake turbulence descends through the air column as it dissipates, so you can be a fair distance (1000-1500 ft vertically, 1-2 miles horizontally) away from the generating aircraft  and still feel the effects, especially if you are following or overtaking it at a lower altitude.  The descent was most likely an attempt to get below the turbulence. Think of the wake vortex descending left to right (\) and your aircraft descending right to left (/), the shortest way through the "danger zone" will make an X shape.  That said, unless it was an extreme case,  wake turbulence at altitude is more on an annoyance than a safety issue.

Per the engine question; even if the engines had ...


You actually said that and no Farker linked to the Kenny Loggins video? I am disappoint, Fark.

/Playing the cavalier Farker
//So sorry for the loss of life.
 
2013-05-01 04:10:59 AM

Haliburton Cummings: RIGHT ON! DEATH ON VIDEEOOOZ!!!


Yeah snuff movies are usually scorned on Fark, but this is an exception. A good one too.
 
2013-05-01 04:14:36 AM
It remains unclear how, exactly, the plane crashed.

Well, it looks like it fell out of the sky, and hit the ground, George.

Maybe they meant "why".

In reference to some comments earlier in the thread,
www.pikosky.skNadine Velazquez is, indeed, hot.
 
2013-05-01 04:21:31 AM
So... what do Alex Jones and the Conspiratards have on this one?
 
2013-05-01 04:34:23 AM

CMcMahon: So... what do Alex Jones and the Conspiratards have on this one?


I don't listen to the show, but I just clicked over and skimmed the site.  Nothing about this, they're too busy predicting an upcoming economic depression, and claiming the Boston Bombers were both innocents being scapegoated as part of a government false flag operation, while at the same time claiming the older brother was radicalized while working as a secret CIA agent who had since gone rogue.
 
2013-05-01 04:37:53 AM
Christ, that was as bad as the B-52 crash at Fairchild AFB.
 
2013-05-01 04:42:18 AM

CMcMahon: So... what do Alex Jones and the Conspiratards have on this one?


Well, you see that grassy knoll on the right? The guy behind the fence is who we should be looking for.
 
2013-05-01 05:00:56 AM

Flint Ironstag: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

I was an instructor in the Air Training Corps here in the UK years ago. A bunch of cadets were on a week camp at a RAF airbase and were being shown round a hangar including a Tornado being serviced, with chances to sit in the seats etc. After they left a mechanic notices one of the pins from the ejector seat was missing....
He told the FS, the FS told the officer, the officer told the base commander etc. It went up to the top of the RAF and then back down the chain of command of the ATC, in about half an hour. Every cadet was confined to quarters, uniformed ATC staff were on the carpet, civilian staff were almost as confined to quarters as the cadets. When the guilty cadet confessed his parents got a call saying "Your son is no longer in the Air Cadets. You have to collect him now". The atmosphere lasted the rest of the week and affected the next few weeks groups as well.

They do not mess around with ejector seats.


In a former career I built components for ejector seats. There's enough explosives that it's never a "safe" thing to do,
 
2013-05-01 05:01:12 AM

lewismarktwo: If the armor was loose, couldn't it come forward as well?  Maybe that's why it went so nose down...


Who knows actually.  One thing to remember is consider the tail surfaces are well behind the center of gravity of the airplane.  As the plane begins to fall out of the sky, you have drag and lift from the tail surfaces acting with a big lever arm to push the nose down.

I say who knows because also as people have mentioned it's possible that they try to do a fast climb out to avoid surface to air missiles.  Lose of thrust or the pilot biffing it could result in a stall.

This is a crash that loots a bit similar.  Root cause was the control locks were not disengaged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by7fzs6paic
 
2013-05-01 05:09:03 AM
cdn2.hark.com

ZEE PLANE ZEE PLANE ZEE...
 
2013-05-01 05:40:56 AM
My guess is that the stall warning did not go off as it should.
 
2013-05-01 05:53:55 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: My guess is that the stall warning did not go off as it should.


Eh, if it was cargo shifting, the stall warning probably screamed bloody murder, and the pilot was thinking "I know, I KNOW"...fark-all he could do about it, besides get the nose down, and that was clearly insufficient.

The Southern Dandy: Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

No.  If the CG is too far back, it's doesn't matter which way you turn, the tail will always point down.


Plus, as a rule, you lose lift in a turn...too close to the ground for that.  If he'd been at altitude, it MIGHT have worked, shifting cargo back to the CG.
 
2013-05-01 05:55:40 AM

redsquid: Pfighting Polish: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.

You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.


Or if she's on her period.
 
2013-05-01 06:08:34 AM

Charlie Freak: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Not true. Not likely, but not true. Ever been in a regional jet when they ask passengers to move around? That's why. Some planes would barely "notice." Others would. A lot.

Look up the 1977 University of Evansville Men's basketball team.


From wiki:

Two weeks after the crash, the only member of the basketball team who was not on the DC-3, was killed after being hit by a drunk driver, leaving all of the members of the 1977 Purple Aces Basketball team dead.

Now THAT is some Final Destination shiat right there.
 
2013-05-01 06:09:02 AM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me


yeah I think I used my entire vocabulary of cuss words just watching the video up until he pulled off the road. Damn.
 
2013-05-01 06:13:50 AM

CMcMahon: So... what do Alex Jones and the Conspiratards have on this one?



Knocked down by fat Syrian's in storage. We will be attacking by next week.
 
2013-05-01 06:24:26 AM
I fly across the Atlantic about twice per year. A crash is really the one way I'd prefer not to go. But that said, those guys only had a few seconds (4?) of twisted gut and scream. I'd rather that than from 30,000 feet.
 
2013-05-01 06:29:13 AM

gibbon1: lewismarktwo: This is a crash that loots a bit similar.  Root cause was the control locks were not disengaged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by7fzs6paic


The witness reaction isn't a whole lot less matter of fact, either. "I cannot believe... it's all over."
 
2013-05-01 06:31:34 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: My guess is that the stall warning did not go off as it should.


I don't think they needed a warning to know something was wrong.
 
2013-05-01 06:35:41 AM

doofusss: Looked to me as though the pilot was attempting to turn,  back towards the runway


ZAZ: It looked like he almost had it under control when the ground got in the way. That's why you should build your airport at the edge of a cliff. Of course then you get complaints about landing.


It wasn't under control and he wasn't turning (intentionally.) That's what a stall/spin looks like. Once the cg shifted far aft, he was just along for the ride.
 
2013-05-01 06:36:56 AM
minutemanproject.com
LOADS SHIFT
FREE MARKET
LET US PRAY

 
2013-05-01 06:37:02 AM

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?


You are supposed to be impressed with his CIS cavalier attitude. His work has hardened his soul to the horrors of his profession and he wants you to know that he can put on his sunglasses in a cool manner.

Piece of tongue? It looks like the whole situation left him speechless.


/YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA
 
2013-05-01 06:38:51 AM

StretchCannon: 1) This was a microburst. It's obvious. You can see the thunderstorm that caused it in the shot. You can see the plane pitching in the column of air.
2) You can be damn sure that the weather guys told the pilot not to take off with the thunderstorm cell that close, but the pilot chose to ignore them.
3) Pilots will blame this on the load shifting because pilots don't like blaming pilot error on pilot error. They'll try to blame the loadmaster. A load shifting wouldn't cause the plane to suddenly tilt opposite the control surface orientation. I watched seasoned pilots recover from worse wind sheer than this for four years at Dover AFB in Delaware.


0/10.
 
2013-05-01 06:42:15 AM

thedumbone: There was no force able to drop that nose that became more pronounced at reduced speeds other than CG


Yes, there was.
 
2013-05-01 06:46:30 AM

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.


Put me down as the eleventh to say that you will be proved completely and totally wrong in the upcoming investigation.
 
2013-05-01 07:00:01 AM

Charlie Freak: I hate hearing the engines. Their intensity matches the fight that was going on in the cockpit.


Not only that, it can take up to 3 seconds for a jet engine to get to full throttle after the power is pushed to the fire wall. Can you imagine how long that is waiting for that extra thrust...

I agree with the cargo shift theory, far too extreme a failure for pilot error, barring a pilot suicide that is.
 
2013-05-01 07:09:42 AM

Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.


I take it you've never flown out of Afghanistan. I have flown some shiat, I have been riding through even more shiat, that flight has to be a top five sphincter pucker of all time.
 
2013-05-01 07:12:00 AM
someone miss a decimal point?
"yea yea, those tanks weigh 2,000lbs each, load up 10 of them"
 
2013-05-01 07:13:12 AM

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


This.

It seems pretty clear that someone didn't tie and secure at least one of the vehicles well enough.  When the weight shifted, the plane lurched upward and stalled.  At that point, they had no chance of recovery.
 
2013-05-01 07:15:39 AM

Satanic_Hamster: saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.

I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

If I had to bet I'd put my money on mechanical failure.


Except that the load master probably wasn't on the plane. There is a reason pilot's use checklists, their life is on the line, everyone else uses checklists cause the pilots life is on the line...
 
2013-05-01 07:18:18 AM

MorePeasPlease: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAI BA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907


The story below that is interesting... imagine if four people died from plague in a year in a state, with today's media?
 
2013-05-01 07:19:06 AM

HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?


The all ready dead body parts went from well done to crispy. The ONLY good news is probably no one was conscious/alive after the ground came up.
 
2013-05-01 07:21:09 AM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me


Got to be another pilot, or an Air Force trained ground crew. Keep the conversation sterile and factual. Me? I cuss like a sailor, sometimes on an open channel, got the FAA letter to prove it. :)
 
2013-05-01 07:25:19 AM

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


You can get it indirectly, as you suggested. Everything nominal and suddenly nose pitches up, full controls down, engines to full, plane still nose up and into a stall. Presuming it's not all black carbon, at this point, you also have the pilots primary and secondary shiat stains in his underwear. As well as cockpit voice, if they managed to figure out what was going on.
 
2013-05-01 07:27:35 AM

thedumbone: Build a paper airplane. Check that it flies normally. Tape a bunch of coins to the nose/tail and throw it towards the ceiling.


Seriously, what a f*cking stupid analogy.
 
2013-05-01 07:39:38 AM
Has the idea been floated around that, perhaps, just perhaps, a load shift didn't take place to the extreme? As in, not all of the cargo shifted entirely to the ass-end of the plane? This video makes it seem unrecoverable given the plane, the load, and the altitude (or lack thereof).

Anyway, at least one of you could use some lessons in physics. Knowing how to instruct people on how to fly planes doesn't necessarily mean you're capable of deconstructing an accident. Trust me, I've worked with cops, and I've questioned their knowledge of physics from time to time when it comes to accident reports.
 
2013-05-01 07:41:08 AM

Smallberries: Satanic_Hamster: saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.

I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

If I had to bet I'd put my money on mechanical failure.

Except that the load master probably wasn't on the plane. There is a reason pilot's use checklists, their life is on the line, everyone else uses checklists cause the pilots life is on the line...


Minimum crew for C-17 cargo ops is two pilots and a load master.
 
2013-05-01 07:41:23 AM

diaphoresis: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

I haven't flown in over 33 yrs.. TSA means I'll never fly again.

/Well, I had no reason to fly. TSA just cements the decision.


I've flown 33,000+ miles this month, including 7,750 just this past weekend, so I'm not sure whether I'm getting a kick or not, but I'm sure damn glad I'm not cargo, and not on some contractor's plane.  (Admittedly, my last 15,500 miles were on an airline that between 1991 and 2002 managed to destroy six widebodies, killing 702 people in the process... but they've gotten better in the decade since they started hiring people with experience as international airline pilots, instead of people with experience as Taiwanese fighter pilots.
 
2013-05-01 07:41:54 AM

Smallberries: Satanic_Hamster: saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.

I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

If I had to bet I'd put my money on mechanical failure.

Except that the load master probably wasn't on the plane. There is a reason pilot's use checklists, their life is on the line, everyone else uses checklists cause the pilots life is on the line...


Loadmasters travel with the plane on non-scheduled cargo flights. Other articles confirm the loadmaster as among the deceased crew.

Do you really want some random asshat on the ground in east jiboo loading up your airplane for you?
 
2013-05-01 07:42:53 AM

puffy999: thedumbone: Build a paper airplane. Check that it flies normally. Tape a bunch of coins to the nose/tail and throw it towards the ceiling.

Seriously, what a f*cking stupid analogy.


I wasn't sure which one of his comments was the most ignorant, but I think you found the winner.
 
2013-05-01 07:47:50 AM

Kittypie070: You jerkoffs trolling about this being a false flag, does it make you feel all manly and "bigger" now!?

People are DEAD and you witless freaks think it's amusing to shart your foul Alex Jones monstrousities on them.

Go choke on a bowl of shredded flags.


Sarcasm is lost on some, eh?
 
2013-05-01 07:56:38 AM
I wonder how much effect the steep climb the plane took on leaving the ground had on the eventual crash. IIRC all planes leaving Bagram make a maximum climb rate take off to avoid any potential ground fire outside the perimeter from insurgents. Throw that into a maximum payload situation, and something comes loose, and you get what's on the video; had they just been taking off normally I'm not sure they would have ended up in that kind of unrecoverable situation even had the payload shifted.
 
2013-05-01 07:58:24 AM

Bendal: I wonder how much effect the steep climb the plane took on leaving the ground had on the eventual crash. IIRC all planes leaving Bagram make a maximum climb rate take off to avoid any potential ground fire outside the perimeter from insurgents. Throw that into a maximum payload situation, and something comes loose, and you get what's on the video; had they just been taking off normally I'm not sure they would have ended up in that kind of unrecoverable situation even had the payload shifted.


Once the payload shifts that much, you're screwed. But's it's quite possible the payload wouldn't have shifted on a normal takeoff.
 
2013-05-01 08:01:46 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: Linux


its interesting that it was on his mind from a thread about a plane crash.   i've heard that death can often bring on a boner.  i guess nature's last attempt at spreading life.  or maybe one last attempt at busting a nut.  probably the latter.
 
2013-05-01 08:03:00 AM

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


that or the engines crapped out. what are the odds that 4 engines would crap out at once. probably cargo shift.
 
2013-05-01 08:04:01 AM
For those that are still unclear about how CG affects an airplane, you can watch Iron Maiden front man Bruce Dickinson explain it in this video.
 
2013-05-01 08:04:40 AM

Cats_Lie: Socialism fails again.



and crony capitalism, as we've seen from recent years, is shinning on!
 
2013-05-01 08:07:57 AM

Glockenspiel Hero: A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers. The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat. Kid didn't survive. Last airshow there for a very long time



I bet he was really excited for a few seconds.
 
2013-05-01 08:17:11 AM

neilbradley: To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.



I'm not a pilot (or an anal lawyer) but most likely the pilot put the plane on autopilot while he and one of the stewardesses went to steal some coffee from one of the passengers. In fact, having the two of them wandering around at the back of the fuselage would likely be enough to drop the tail, causing the stall.
 
2013-05-01 08:18:29 AM
ALL of those guys on this flight are from where I live, but one. They only showed stills of the video; there was a debriefing for the families on the local news last night that was brutal... One of the pilots' brothers was on, and that pilot had a kid on the way-- he and his wife hadn't even had their honeymoon yet. Those poor kids.

/I actually side with them not showing that video on the news up here
//Rare classy act, Detroit media
 
2013-05-01 08:19:41 AM
Thanks Subby, this will haunt my dreams for the rest of my life.
 
2013-05-01 08:20:12 AM

katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.


I blame Timothy.
 
2013-05-01 08:23:14 AM
Is Bagram crash a scandal yet?
 
2013-05-01 08:30:57 AM
We could ban cargo-shifting. Then, only criminals could move boxes.

I'm kidding. Between this, and the guy that ran over a guy on a bike last night with his truck,(in front of the building I'm in) I've seen enough horrible for the day.

/only Wednesday?
 
2013-05-01 08:34:48 AM

thedumbone: Flint Ironstag: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Once it stalled it was effectively free falling. In freefall you have zero g, so where the weight is suddely doesn't matter.

Physics doesn't work that way on things with air resistance.  They tend to fall heavy-part first.

Build a paper airplane.  Check that it flies normally.  Tape a bunch of coins to the nose/tail and throw it towards the ceiling.  Notice now it crashes.

Now, a paper airplane is more Newton that Bernoulli, but the difference is moot when you're stalled anyway.


"Bernoulli" what aircraft, anything, flies by Bernoulli?

Let me guess, you 'studied' aerodynamics in high school?
 
2013-05-01 08:35:47 AM
Short Answer:  Bungee cords aren't gonna keep your load of luxury cars from sliding to the tail if you climb too hard.   Cars don't stay put like LOCKED DOWN CARGO BINS, they WILL slide on the deck.
A tail full of BMW isn't gonna fly.

It takes about six hundred pounds of lock-down equipment per car if you buy the best gear.
 
2013-05-01 08:35:49 AM

Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.


What about that B-2 Spirit that crashed at Diego Garcia? That was mechanical, right? Flaps extended or something?
/too lazy to google...
 
2013-05-01 08:36:11 AM
Now, that's what I call a stall...
 
2013-05-01 08:40:56 AM

fatbear: Smallberries: Satanic_Hamster: saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.

I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

If I had to bet I'd put my money on mechanical failure.

Except that the load master probably wasn't on the plane. There is a reason pilot's use checklists, their life is on the line, everyone else uses checklists cause the pilots life is on the line...

Loadmasters travel with the plane on non-scheduled cargo flights. Other articles confirm the loadmaster as among the deceased crew.

Do you really want some random asshat on the ground in east jiboo loading up your airplane for you?


No I do not want some random asshat on the ground loading my aircraft w/o his life on the line. Has it happened, you bet your bippy. There is a reason, after a major service/rebuild, there are two people in my aircraft, me and the mechanic. My only real hope that he didn't F'up, is that he (she in three cases) will die too. Does that make a double tragedy, probably, do I care, well no cause I'm dead too.
 
2013-05-01 08:41:50 AM
Smallberries: "Bernoulli" what aircraft, anything, flies by Bernoulli?

All of them?
 
2013-05-01 08:43:07 AM

andynz81: SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.

Heh, the night before myself and a couple of others were to jump on a plane bound for the himalayas, we watched The Grey, without knowing anything about the movie prior. That caused a couple of nervous laughs...


F'n lame movie. Has photo's on the back of the DVD that weren't in the movie.

My guess, filled the Alpha versus Man fight, and found is sucked, so just cut the whole thing. But forgot to tell Marketing.
 
2013-05-01 08:43:30 AM
The airplane seen from another angle...

www.oocities.org
 
2013-05-01 08:44:18 AM

OHDUDENESS: Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.

What about that B-2 Spirit that crashed at Diego Garcia? That was mechanical, right? Flaps extended or something?
/too lazy to google...


Excess moisture in air data sensors from heavy rain overnight caused inaccurate information to be fed into the flight computer.
 
2013-05-01 08:53:17 AM

thedumbone:  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs


You know how we all know you don't know what you're talking about?

/no, of course you don't.
 
2013-05-01 09:21:37 AM
StoPPeRmobile: They do not mess around with ejector seats.

Probably more concerned about a potential FOD hazard than it having to do with dangers of an unpinned seat.
 
2013-05-01 09:21:59 AM

Smallberries: Except that the load master probably wasn't on the plane.


If so, he's the unluckiest SOB on the planet, because the plane must have crashed on him as he was driving home.

Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY
 
2013-05-01 09:38:32 AM
There is an Airforce saying "It is inadvisable to run out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas at the same time."

Also "You can never break the world record for lowest flight. Only tie it."

"Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory. "

"The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

"You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck."

"The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.  "
 
2013-05-01 09:38:35 AM

thedumbone: Notice now it crashes.


Notice that the coins weigh several times what the plane weighs.
 
2013-05-01 09:43:20 AM
And this is why you have to turn off your iPhone before take off.
 
2013-05-01 09:50:23 AM
The dog took it hard.
"Whine whine"
(It's falling! It's crashing! It burst into flames! Oh, the humanity!)
 
2013-05-01 09:52:26 AM
MythDragon:  "The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.  "

Maybe it's more appropriate to GA, but I always heard the third was "fuel on the ground."
 
2013-05-01 09:52:37 AM

Charlie Freak: youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.

This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.


On a Delta flight coming in for a landing. About 50 feet from the ground, engines suddenly go full power (And I immediately think "Not good") and we pull into a steep climb. Lady next to me asks why we didn't land, and I say "The pilot is probably a fan of basic physics" She gives me a quizical look and I say "Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. We were probably about to land on another plane" Sure enough about 10 minutes later (the time it took to get a change of shorts, I imagine) the pilot tells us that the runway was 'in use' and we had to go around.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-05-01 09:55:46 AM
MythDragon: "The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

Said somebody who never made a carrier landing.
 
2013-05-01 10:01:21 AM

ZAZ: MythDragon: "The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

Said somebody who never made a carrier landing.


Oooohhh... I hated having to do those

/just a passenger
//a very, very nervous passenger
 
2013-05-01 10:01:30 AM

HBK: Charlie Freak: youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.

This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.

Well that's terrifying. Doesn't GPS/radar, whatever give you a good heads up about nearby planes? Did the pilot just fall asleep or something?



Odds are either another plane was on the wrong FL, the other plane was going faster than expected on the right FL(went from max cruise to full power to catch up from a late departure or burn off fuel for an easier landing etc) and the air controler didn't notice or your plane did one of these,
 
2013-05-01 10:03:09 AM

ZAZ: MythDragon: "The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

Said somebody who never made a carrier landing.


Probabilities, not certainties. It still holds true for carrier landings.
 
2013-05-01 10:04:25 AM

Smallberries: Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.

I take it you've never flown out of Afghanistan. I have flown some shiat, I have been riding through even more shiat, that flight has to be a top five sphincter pucker of all time.


I'm sure you have, but a steep climb is not the same as going vertical and tipping over.  A 747 needs to build up some speed before going vertical.  It's not a rocket.
 
2013-05-01 10:05:29 AM

fatbear: OHDUDENESS: Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.

What about that B-2 Spirit that crashed at Diego Garcia? That was mechanical, right? Flaps extended or something?
/too lazy to google...

Excess moisture in air data sensors from heavy rain overnight caused inaccurate information to be fed into the flight computer.



Wow... Seems like a really dumb reason to lose a billion dollar aircraft.
Thanks for that
 
2013-05-01 10:09:50 AM

Charlie Freak: This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.


I remember being in LaGuardia waiting for a flight when I saw breaking news coverage of this - everyone around me was dreading another round of hijackings, but it was actually caused by wake turbulence + pilot error...
cheers
 
2013-05-01 10:17:00 AM

MythDragon: Glockenspiel Hero: A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers. The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat. Kid didn't survive. Last airshow there for a very long time


I bet he was really excited for a few seconds.


I'm going to hell for laughing so hard at this.
 
2013-05-01 10:18:23 AM

Peki: The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.


You can do it in most aircraft if you pull back too hard during takeoff, or if the elevator control fails right (ie wrong). Spinning off the winch is a common form of death by glider.
 
2013-05-01 10:23:32 AM

Linux_Yes: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

that or the engines crapped out. what are the odds that 4 engines would crap out at once. probably cargo shift.


I recall an old case where a B52 lost all 8 simultaneously...serious fuel screw-up.
 
2013-05-01 10:26:55 AM

wjllope: Charlie Freak: This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.

I remember being in LaGuardia waiting for a flight when I saw breaking news coverage of this - everyone around me was dreading another round of hijackings, but it was actually caused by wake turbulence + pilot error...
cheers


That "pilot error" finding kind of stinks to me...you shouldn't be able to waggle the pedals enough on a modern airliner to snap off the vertical stabilizer on takeoff, unless you're taking off into a tornado...
 
2013-05-01 10:27:19 AM

orbister: Spinning off the winch is a common form of death by glider.


I'm sure soaring is an amazing experience, but everything about the sport just screams "this is not something people should do" to me.
 
2013-05-01 10:31:33 AM
Farking Christ, man.

They didn't have a chance.
 
2013-05-01 10:32:16 AM

MythDragon: Charlie Freak: youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.

This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.

On a Delta flight coming in for a landing. About 50 feet from the ground, engines suddenly go full power (And I immediately think "Not good") and we pull into a steep climb. Lady next to me asks why we didn't land, and I say "The pilot is probably a fan of basic physics" She gives me a quizical look and I say "Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. We were probably about to land on another plane" Sure enough about 10 minutes later (the time it took to get a change of shorts, I imagine) ...


Heh, I had an airline pilot put us down hard landing in Hawaii, and blow a tire...scary for a moment, but no big deal.  Funny thing is, he tried to deny it over the intercom...we're taxiing to the terminal, and it's JUST like a car with a flat...KaFLUMP, KaFLUMP, KaFlump...and he's all "uh,no, no, we didn't blow out a tire.  Everything's fine."

There's a fine line between not terrifying your passengers and not feeding them obvious BS.
 
2013-05-01 10:35:59 AM

HBK: I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out. Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


Well, keep in mind, the pilot has to say SOMETHING.  And it has to be plausible and not scare the passengers.  What do you think is going to go over better?
"We had turbulence due to jetwash."
or
"The pilot jerks his arms when the stewardess accidentally bit down when giving the pilot a blow job."
 
2013-05-01 10:36:42 AM

ZAZ: MythDragon: "The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

Said somebody who never made a carrier landing.


You might appoach at a large angle, but the planes don't arrive at the carrier deck much steeper than a fighter on tarmac. You still generaly want two wheels on deck when you catch the 3 wire.

And actualy I've made plenty of carrier landings. I've made 38....simulated.

/Tried landing a B-2 on a carrier in Jane's ATF. Didn't work well.
//Tried launching a B-2 from a carrier as well. Discovered why they don't do that.
///Found you could take off with a F-117, if you backed all the way up so the rear wheels were right on the back edge, put on the brakes, ran the engines to full power, and kept the nose down at full flaps until you left the deck, and with some praying, and if the carrier is coming *out* of a swell, you'll make it.
 
2013-05-01 10:37:51 AM

PunGent: wjllope: Charlie Freak: This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.

I remember being in LaGuardia waiting for a flight when I saw breaking news coverage of this - everyone around me was dreading another round of hijackings, but it was actually caused by wake turbulence + pilot error...
cheers

That "pilot error" finding kind of stinks to me...you shouldn't be able to waggle the pedals enough on a modern airliner to snap off the vertical stabilizer on takeoff, unless you're taking off into a tornado...


They used to teach that below a certain speed (its called maneuvering speed or Va, if you care), it was safe to move the controls from full deflection in one direction to full deflection in the other, without ripping the airplane apart. Because of that accident, the definition has changed a little bit, as you can probably imagine.
 
2013-05-01 10:41:49 AM
MythDragon:You might appoach at a large angle, but the planes don't arrive at the carrier deck much steeper than a fighter on tarmac. You still generaly want two wheels on deck when you catch the 3 wire.

And actualy I've made plenty of carrier landings. I've made 38....simulated.


You're confusing angle of attack and angle of descent (which in this case, is also angle of arrival, not a term normally used.)

The angle of attack is about the same for land vs carrier; the angle of descent at touchdown is very different.

Congrats on your 38 simulated carrier landings. You get a cookie.
 
2013-05-01 10:49:23 AM

iron_city_ap: They used to teach that below a certain speed (its called maneuvering speed or Va, if you care), it was safe to move the controls from full deflection in one direction to full deflection in the other, without ripping the airplane apart. Because of that accident, the definition has changed a little bit, as you can probably imagine.


Actually, that's a really important distinction. The certification said that you could move the controls to full deflection *in any direction.* Many, many pilots (including the people who wrote American's training manual) assumed that meant you could go from full stop to full stop quickly - it doesn't.
 
2013-05-01 10:56:35 AM

fatbear: iron_city_ap: They used to teach that below a certain speed (its called maneuvering speed or Va, if you care), it was safe to move the controls from full deflection in one direction to full deflection in the other, without ripping the airplane apart. Because of that accident, the definition has changed a little bit, as you can probably imagine.

Actually, that's a really important distinction. The certification said that you could move the controls to full deflection *in any direction.* Many, many pilots (including the people who wrote American's training manual) assumed that meant you could go from full stop to full stop quickly - it doesn't.


Its very clearly explained in there now.
 
2013-05-01 11:01:28 AM

fatbear: MythDragon:You might appoach at a large angle, but the planes don't arrive at the carrier deck much steeper than a fighter on tarmac. You still generaly want two wheels on deck when you catch the 3 wire.

And actualy I've made plenty of carrier landings. I've made 38....simulated.

You're confusing angle of attack and angle of descent (which in this case, is also angle of arrival, not a term normally used.)

The angle of attack is about the same for land vs carrier; the angle of descent at touchdown is very different.

Congrats on your 38 simulated carrier landings. You get a cookie.


Simulated cookie. :)
 
2013-05-01 11:02:59 AM

dbirchall: fatbear: MythDragon:You might appoach at a large angle, but the planes don't arrive at the carrier deck much steeper than a fighter on tarmac. You still generaly want two wheels on deck when you catch the 3 wire.

And actualy I've made plenty of carrier landings. I've made 38....simulated.

You're confusing angle of attack and angle of descent (which in this case, is also angle of arrival, not a term normally used.)

The angle of attack is about the same for land vs carrier; the angle of descent at touchdown is very different.

Congrats on your 38 simulated carrier landings. You get a cookie.

Simulated cookie. :)


Make sure you set your browser to accept cookies.
 
2013-05-01 11:05:30 AM

squibbits: But there's just no way an airplane crash can produce such a big explosion. Just ask any of the "Truthers".



And another thing..... no-one's ever seen that plane's birth certificate, right? How do we know it really is a 747 cargo plane and not a second Spruce Goose? Because, as everyone knows, metal doesn't burn (as shown in the video)..... it melts! But spruce burns!
 
2013-05-01 11:08:03 AM
 
2013-05-01 11:14:17 AM

fusillade762: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.


me too
 
2013-05-01 11:15:35 AM

LonMead: CMcMahon: So... what do Alex Jones and the Conspiratards have on this one?

Well, you see that grassy knoll on the right? The guy behind the fence is who we should be looking for.



For your future reference, a plane has just hit a second grassy knoll.
 
2013-05-01 11:16:24 AM

PunGent: h, I had an airline pilot put us down hard landing in Hawaii, and blow a tire...scary for a moment, but no big deal. Funny thing is, he tried to deny it over the intercom...we're taxiing to the terminal, and it's JUST like a car with a flat...KaFLUMP, KaFLUMP, KaFlump...and he's all "uh,no, no, we didn't blow out a tire. Everything's fine."

There's a fine line between not terrifying your passengers and not feeding them obvious BS.


He's not the first to do that
 
2013-05-01 11:24:29 AM
I'm surprised no one has said "If it's Boeing, I ain't going".
 
2013-05-01 11:31:40 AM

Evil Twin Skippy: redsquid: Pfighting Polish: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.

You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.

Or if she's on her period.



Anytime you see her on her period, ya gotta giver her some space before you start up again.
 
2013-05-01 11:37:23 AM
 
2013-05-01 11:43:27 AM

PunGent: Heh, I had an airline pilot put us down hard landing in Hawaii, and blow a tire...scary for a moment, but no big deal.  Funny thing is, he tried to deny it over the intercom...we're taxiing to the terminal, and it's JUST like a car with a flat...KaFLUMP, KaFLUMP, KaFlump...and he's all "uh,no, no, we didn't blow out a tire.  Everything's fine."There's a fine line between not terrifying your passengers and not feeding them obvious BS.


My flight CSS:

We're coming into Edmonton, pretty overcast with heavy clouds (the kind that hold a lot of rain). About halfway through what I would call "normal" descent, the flight attendants start doing mad dashes around the cabin. A few minutes later, we pitch 2-3 degrees down, and the engines throttle up. I look over at my fiancé, and say, "The pilot is trying to get this plane on the ground, and he wants it on the ground, right now."

A few minutes before actually landing, the pilot comes on: "Folks, landing may be a little bumpy. We've got weather coming in. Please sit tight and we'll be on the ground shortly."
 
2013-05-01 11:44:57 AM

Charlie Freak: eggrolls: Charlie Freak: eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.

Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?

I think giant airplanes falling from the sky and exploding elicit an almost universal response.

I dunno. Did you watch the Russian dashcam videos of the giant meteor exploding?


Vodak is a great sedative. Especially at breakfast.
 
2013-05-01 11:50:50 AM

Thunderboy: orbister: Spinning off the winch is a common form of death by glider.

I'm sure soaring is an amazing experience, but everything about the sport just screams "this is not something people should do" to me.


Yeah. Those things have the right amount of wings, but too few wheels and engines.
 
2013-05-01 11:50:54 AM

MythDragon: ZAZ: MythDragon: "The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

Said somebody who never made a carrier landing.

You might appoach at a large angle, but the planes don't arrive at the carrier deck much steeper than a fighter on tarmac. You still generaly want two wheels on deck when you catch the 3 wire.

And actualy I've made plenty of carrier landings. I've made 38....simulated.

/Tried landing a B-2 on a carrier in Jane's ATF. Didn't work well.
//Tried launching a B-2 from a carrier as well. Discovered why they don't do that.
///Found you could take off with a F-117, if you backed all the way up so the rear wheels were right on the back edge, put on the brakes, ran the engines to full power, and kept the nose down at full flaps until you left the deck, and with some praying, and if the carrier is coming *out* of a swell, you'll make it.


Many years ago on MS Flight Sim I'd set up a helicopter takeoff from a helipad  on the top of a skyscraper and then change the aircraft to a 747 and try to take off.  Never quite managed it....
 
2013-05-01 11:53:46 AM

Peki: PunGent: Heh, I had an airline pilot put us down hard landing in Hawaii, and blow a tire...scary for a moment, but no big deal.  Funny thing is, he tried to deny it over the intercom...we're taxiing to the terminal, and it's JUST like a car with a flat...KaFLUMP, KaFLUMP, KaFlump...and he's all "uh,no, no, we didn't blow out a tire.  Everything's fine."There's a fine line between not terrifying your passengers and not feeding them obvious BS.

My flight CSS:

We're coming into Edmonton, pretty overcast with heavy clouds (the kind that hold a lot of rain). About halfway through what I would call "normal" descent, the flight attendants start doing mad dashes around the cabin. A few minutes later, we pitch 2-3 degrees down, and the engines throttle up. I look over at my fiancé, and say, "The pilot is trying to get this plane on the ground, and he wants it on the ground, right now."

A few minutes before actually landing, the pilot comes on: "Folks, landing may be a little bumpy. We've got weather coming in. Please sit tight and we'll be on the ground shortly."


I've flown on the Russian built copy of the DC10.... And lived.....
 
2013-05-01 11:54:05 AM

puffy999: thedumbone: Build a paper airplane. Check that it flies normally. Tape a bunch of coins to the nose/tail and throw it towards the ceiling.

Seriously, what a f*cking stupid analogy.



You prefer chicken wire???
 
2013-05-01 11:57:41 AM

BetterMetalSnake: Thunderboy: orbister: Spinning off the winch is a common form of death by glider.

I'm sure soaring is an amazing experience, but everything about the sport just screams "this is not something people should do" to me.

Yeah. Those things have the right amount of wings, but too few wheels and engines.


FTFY
 
2013-05-01 12:04:29 PM
For all those using coins and paper and aerodynamics theories you learned in high school to explain how this couldn't have possibly come from shifting cargo, it turns out - you're right!

step forward and claim your prize
 
2013-05-01 12:06:06 PM
Warning: This video contains an expletive !  Oh noes!
 
2013-05-01 12:10:28 PM

Tenatra: Lsherm: I need you to explain, in simple terms, why you think that plane took off ass down and nose up right off the runway

Pilot thought he could maneuver it in the same manner as an F-22 at take off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ti9GwnlVs


That may have been part of it, I was on a few military flights where the transport pilots were worried about unfriendly folk with RPGs and tried to do the good old vertical climb.  It is possible if the guy had taken off more more like this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThoZNxy2JZk">http://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=ThoZNxy2JZk, the poorly secured load might not have bitten him in the ass in such a way.  Of course it's all hindsight and the odds of some farker with a RPG tagging you versus a MRAP decided it wants to play at being air dropped armor.
 
2013-05-01 12:15:32 PM

WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know


I've always wondered what happens is eveyone just got up from their seats at the same moment and rush to the back of the plane? Will it cause enough shift to put the plane in danger and cause a stall?
 
2013-05-01 12:19:40 PM

SuperNinjaToad: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

I've always wondered what happens is eveyone just got up from their seats at the same moment and rush to the back of the plane? Will it cause enough shift to put the plane in danger and cause a stall?


The aisles are fairly narrow, odds are you couldn't get enough mass moving fast enough to really fark anything up.  I'm sure you could construct the problem theoretically, but it isn't much of a practical threat.
 
2013-05-01 12:26:21 PM

fatbear: For all those using coins and paper and aerodynamics theories you learned in high school to explain how this couldn't have possibly come from shifting cargo, it turns out - you're right!

step forward and claim your prize


The graphic in the video fails somewhat. The vehicles would have been loaded along the centerline and chained down, not secured with cargo netting along one side.

At least every MRAP I've seen transported by air were loaded in the way I described.  Like in this picture:

www.nycaviation.com

The ones I've seen in person have been on a C-5, not a 747, but this pic is from a 747.
 
2013-05-01 12:27:32 PM
ha-ha-guy: a plane
//But ya never know

I've always wondered what happens is eveyone just got up from their seats at the same moment and rush to the back of the plane? Will it cause enough shift to put the plane in danger and cause a stall?

The aisles are fairly narrow, odds are you couldn't get enough mass moving fast enough to really fark anything up.  I'm sure you could construct the problem theoretically, but it isn't much of a practical threat.


They don't have to move fast, they just have to move. And it's not really a "threat" if everyone's involved.
 
2013-05-01 12:32:50 PM

katerbug72: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2317306/Boeing-747-crash-vide o -American-killed-predicted-die-ball-flame-family-reveals.html?ICO=most _read_module

Daily Fail has some more info.


I'm surprised that National Air Cargo uses 747-400's - last I checked a lot of the contract lift/extraordinary rendition business was still on DC-10s (but I see Omni Air International has stored theirs and moved to Boeing twinjets) and 747-200s (Kalitta, I'm looking at you).  But a little digging, and sure enough.  A 744 is still a pretty big, pretty modern, pretty shiny, pretty pretty plane.  (Not quite a 747-8i, but still nice.)

Unfortunately I'm  not surprised to find that they've only been operating 747s for about a year and a half, operated mainly little bitty prop jobs before that, and seem a little indecisive about whether to be based in New York, Michigan, or Florida.
 
2013-05-01 12:35:14 PM

fatbear: ha-ha-guy: a plane
//But ya never know

I've always wondered what happens is eveyone just got up from their seats at the same moment and rush to the back of the plane? Will it cause enough shift to put the plane in danger and cause a stall?

The aisles are fairly narrow, odds are you couldn't get enough mass moving fast enough to really fark anything up.  I'm sure you could construct the problem theoretically, but it isn't much of a practical threat.

They don't have to move fast, they just have to move. And it's not really a "threat" if everyone's involved.


This. Even the Bruce Dickenson video says cabin crew have to be careful of passengers moving seats on half full planes.
 
2013-05-01 12:45:02 PM
Hey Subby, it does if you have airbrakes!
home.earthlink.net


/not obscure to older farkers.
 
2013-05-01 12:50:12 PM

buzzcut73: fatbear: For all those using coins and paper and aerodynamics theories you learned in high school to explain how this couldn't have possibly come from shifting cargo, it turns out - you're right!

step forward and claim your prize

The graphic in the video fails somewhat. The vehicles would have been loaded along the centerline and chained down, not secured with cargo netting along one side.

At least every MRAP I've seen transported by air were loaded in the way I described.  Like in this picture:

[www.nycaviation.com image 602x401]

The ones I've seen in person have been on a C-5, not a 747, but this pic is from a 747.


Guy I gamed with in college is/was a loadmaster for C-141s in the National Guard.  He used to take photos of every tie down before the plane was launched just to cover his ass.  Had some neat pictures.
 
2013-05-01 01:03:57 PM
After watching this video, I believe I will now ask my wife to stop calling me "Loadmaster".
 
2013-05-01 01:05:37 PM

buzzcut73: At least every MRAP I've seen transported by air were loaded in the way I described.  Like in this picture:

[www.nycaviation.com image 602x401]

The ones I've seen in person have been on a C-5, not a 747, but this pic is from a 747.


I assumed with those being as heavy as they are, that they would use more chains than straps to hold them in. Also, the lumber underneath is interesting. I suppose its to keep the vehicle from bouncing and keeps the tension on the straps. Very interesting pic.
 
2013-05-01 01:09:03 PM
This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.
 
2013-05-01 01:15:24 PM

Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.


Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.
 
2013-05-01 01:16:22 PM
Find not fine.
 
2013-05-01 01:18:03 PM

Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.


Or, if this was the conspiracy theory thread, it's the CIA bug planted in your car/radio/skull so the black helicopters can track you.
 
kth
2013-05-01 01:19:08 PM

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


I used to swim at Rockwood (about Central and Rock behind the Dillons). Those big tankers were loud. You would simply stop your conversation, go under water, come back up and resume when they were done.

Voiceofreason01: Whiteman AFB is only about 10 miles south of I-70. If you're very lucky you'll get to see the B-2's doing training runs. Those bastards are scary to see come flying over, especially since you don't hear them until they're right on top of you.

I now live in the flightline here now, and I've seen them in both places. I am always surprised by how quiet they are, until I remind myself... um, STEALTH, dumbass.
 
2013-05-01 01:25:41 PM

thedumbone: Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.

The tail is designed to stall after the wing.  A tail stall is a whole different beast and rarely happens outside of icing conditions.

In any event, a stalled tail is producing effectively zero lift.  A flying tail, with the elevator forward, is trying to push the nose down.  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs


Actually, you've got that backwards. A stalled horizontal stabilizer will drop the nose (for more reasons than just a loss of lift), because the horizontal stabilizer is trying to push the nose up.  Hopefully you're teaching your students that CG is (generally) in front of CL, which tends to cause a nose down moment.  The horizontal stabilizer is there to produce lift in a downward direction....which when translated to the front of the plane (think see-saw) causes the nose to rise.  A tail stall, contrary to what pilots are taught for a wing stall, requires that the stick/yoke be pulled back, reducing AOA on the horizontal stabilizer.

/CFI
 
2013-05-01 01:35:17 PM

Flint Ironstag: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.


So I just tried putting my cell phone near my RF-headphone transmitter and then calling the phone from my landline. Sure enough, I heard the buzzing sounds right before the phone rang. Interesting! Thanks.
 
2013-05-01 01:37:34 PM

scroufus: I am at BAF (Bagram).  I was in my office making sure my chair didnt move by sitting in it and I was in and out of doozing off.  Heard the BOOM thought nothing of it cause we have control dets all the time and usually they announce them but every now again they dont.  Any who our loggy came in and said a big ass plane just crashed.  We all went out side and seen the giant fire and GIANT smoke plume.   We stay kinda close to the flight line and they said we may have to evacuate if the smoke gets near us (it didnt).   It was really windy and cold that day.   About an hour after the crash it rained like a mofo.  Hail and everything for a good hour.    I only took one picture of the aftermath.   [sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net image 320x240]


bump
 
2013-05-01 01:40:54 PM

Skyrmion: Flint Ironstag: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.

So I just tried putting my cell phone near my RF-headphone transmitter and then calling the phone from my landline. Sure enough, I heard the buzzing sounds right before the phone rang. Interesting! Thanks.


You fool! Now the black helicopters know exactly where you are!
 
2013-05-01 01:43:56 PM

Skyrmion: Flint Ironstag: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.

So I just tried putting my cell phone near my RF-headphone transmitter and then calling the phone from my landline. Sure enough, I heard the buzzing sounds right before the phone rang. Interesting! Thanks.


Which is part of why pilots that I've spoken with aren't really crazy about the prospect of everybody on the plane keeping their cell on in flight. While the radio control unit is on the flight deck, the radio itself may be mounted underneath the floor or above your head in the the cabin. Nothing that would crash the plane, but imagine hearing that on your headset for a good portion of the flight.

At least, that's what they want me to think.
 
2013-05-01 02:14:14 PM

fatbear: BetterMetalSnake: Thunderboy: orbister: Spinning off the winch is a common form of death by glider.

I'm sure soaring is an amazing experience, but everything about the sport just screams "this is not something people should do" to me.

Yeah. Those things have the right amount of wings, but too few wheels and engines.

FTFY


I stand corrected. Throw some monster truck tires on that thing and we are in business!
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-05-01 02:26:05 PM
I've always wondered what happens is eveyone just got up from their seats at the same moment and rush to the back of the plane? Will it cause enough shift to put the plane in danger and cause a stall?

400 people at 80 kg are about 10% of the weight of a 747. If they move back 15 meters (on average) the CG moves back about 1.5 meters. The allowable CG range of a jet airliner is on the order of 2 meters, and odds are it was not at the front edge of the range to start. So all the girls going to the bathroom at once could be considered terrorists.

The plane may not crash outside of those limits, but the FAA will be very annoyed. Google found me a story of a 747 loaded outside of CG limits that didn't blow up: www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/617.pdf.
 
2013-05-01 02:47:13 PM

Warthog: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.


Reminds me of a story I heard while visiting my brother down in Del Rio,Texas, where he was an instructor pilot at the time.  They had a jet in the unit out on a training mission, when the jet started to come apart and enter a rapid uncontrolled roll.  Instructor gave the instruction to eject, and they did safely (which apparently shocked the wingman, given their roll rate).

But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.


Must have been a mesquite tree... those things are nasty.
 
2013-05-01 02:48:29 PM

neilbradley: To anyone who is a pilot (or know about such things), why didn't he put the nose down and power up? If you can see you're about to be in a stall situation, that's fairly easy to determine in VERY short order.


I believe the fark-appropriate answer here is "junk in the trunk."
 
2013-05-01 03:03:46 PM

SuperNinjaToad: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

I've always wondered what happens is eveyone just got up from their seats at the same moment and rush to the back of the plane? Will it cause enough shift to put the plane in danger and cause a stall?


Small plane...quite possibly.  Big airliner...I dunno, any 4 engine guys on?

I'd imagine you'd have to be pretty close to the edge of the envelope to start with; airliners are commonly overloaded
by a couple of tons, but the key is, it's balanced inside the envelope.
 
2013-05-01 03:05:51 PM

Flint Ironstag: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.


It's a phenomenon unique to GSM phones. CDMA and LTE (in most bands) won't cause the same interference. iDEN phones, on the other hand, drive electronics crazy. I had a junk iDEN phone that would cause my alarm clock on my nightstand to act as if it experienced a power surge and reset the time every time that phone talked to the tower.
 
2013-05-01 03:09:07 PM

MythDragon: ZAZ: MythDragon: "The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa. "

Said somebody who never made a carrier landing.

You might appoach at a large angle, but the planes don't arrive at the carrier deck much steeper than a fighter on tarmac. You still generaly want two wheels on deck when you catch the 3 wire.

And actualy I've made plenty of carrier landings. I've made 38....simulated.



Lieutenant Gorman?  Is that you?
 
2013-05-01 03:14:44 PM

PunGent: Plus, as a rule, you lose lift in a turn...too close to the ground for that. If he'd been at altitude, it MIGHT have worked, shifting cargo back to the CG.


There are times you find yourself in a situation in which there are no more remaining good alternatives.
 
2013-05-01 03:47:03 PM

PunGent: airliners are commonly overloaded by a couple of tons


Ummm...no.
 
2013-05-01 03:48:29 PM

ZAZ: I've always wondered what happens is eveyone just got up from their seats at the same moment and rush to the back of the plane? Will it cause enough shift to put the plane in danger and cause a stall?

400 people at 80 kg are about 10% of the weight of a 747. If they move back 15 meters (on average) the CG moves back about 1.5 meters. The allowable CG range of a jet airliner is on the order of 2 meters, and odds are it was not at the front edge of the range to start. So all the girls going to the bathroom at once could be considered terrorists.

The plane may not crash outside of those limits, but the FAA will be very annoyed. Google found me a story of a 747 loaded outside of CG limits that didn't blow up: www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/617.pdf.


The FAA will be annoyed? Hell, *I'd* be annoyed as fark if I was on a flight with 400 women who weighed an average of 176 lbs each.
 
2013-05-01 03:53:55 PM

HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?


The dog got under the clutch pedal when he decided to start driving again and cried.
 
2013-05-01 04:04:30 PM

buzzcut73: Skyrmion: Flint Ironstag: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.

So I just tried putting my cell phone near my RF-headphone transmitter and then calling the phone from my landline. Sure enough, I heard the buzzing sounds right before the phone rang. Interesting! Thanks.

Which is part of why pilots that I've spoken with aren't really crazy about the prospect of everybody on the plane keeping their cell on in flight. While the radio control unit is on the flight deck, the radio itself may be mounted underneath the floor or above your head in the the cabin. Nothing that would crash the plane, but imagine hearing that on your headset for a good portion of the flight.

At least, that's what they want me to think.


See now, if the FAA would come out with an explanation like THAT, everyone would be all, "Yeah, okay, that makes sense," because everyone and her mother is annoyed by those damn pops that you hear from speakers and shiat. Not a omg we'll crash and everyone dies, but would cause enough of a distraction in the cockpit that makes the pilot's job a little more difficult. Add an emergency situation, and you don't want a bunch of cell phones going off while you're trying to communicate and do things.

/although, truth be told, we're at 30K' and I know we're dead? Fark you, lady, I'm at least calling my family to say goodbye.
 
2013-05-01 04:06:03 PM
I was helping a friend with his food stall at the 2011 Reno Air Races. We both saw things that day that we will never, ever forget. My father was in a commercial airline crash in 1977 in Denver. The point is, be it human error or mechanical error, planes are dangerous things. The old man went on to fly for work a few times a month for the next 30 years (he was, ironically, an aerospace consultant) and still flies a number of times a year. I still continue to fly both on commercial flights and with my private license. When the day comes that your number is called, your number is called, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it. Just my $0.02
 
2013-05-01 04:10:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUXgourLt6s

If they had this guy flying they might have been OK.

/not really
 
2013-05-01 04:16:47 PM

Popcorn Johnny: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Early word is that they were carrying 5 armored vehicles and something came loose.


Ever earlier word is, they crashed...
 
2013-05-01 04:20:12 PM
Weird how silent the person in the car is the moment it crashes.
 
2013-05-01 04:31:07 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: Cuyose: I think the only plane capable of actually accelerating towing its own weight in a vertical climb, is the F-15

It can do that, so can the F-16, F-22 and F-35. Usually it's with 50% fuel and no load. MiG-29, Su-27, you get the idea. The best one was the Streak Eagle IMO.

Anyways, I wonder if you can fit RATOs on a 747? Flip a panic switch and maybe it could help.


Probably be a big mod to attach them.  Wouldn't the cargo come crashing through the cockpit during landing anyway?
 
2013-05-01 04:47:43 PM

Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.


Sounds like cell phone interference. Used to get it if my cell was too close to a speaker cable. It happens all the time, I think it's the cell phone saying "I'm here any calls?" because it does not happen only as a call comes in.
 
2013-05-01 05:26:41 PM

Peki: buzzcut73: Skyrmion: Flint Ironstag: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.

So I just tried putting my cell phone near my RF-headphone transmitter and then calling the phone from my landline. Sure enough, I heard the buzzing sounds right before the phone rang. Interesting! Thanks.

Which is part of why pilots that I've spoken with aren't really crazy about the prospect of everybody on the plane keeping their cell on in flight. While the radio control unit is on the flight deck, the radio itself may be mounted underneath the floor or above your head in the the cabin. Nothing that would crash the plane, but imagine hearing that on your headset for a good portion of the flight.

At least, that's what they want me to think.

See now, if the FAA would come out with an explanation like THAT, everyone would be all, "Yeah, okay, that makes sense," because everyone and her mother is annoyed by those damn pops that you hear from speakers and shiat. Not a omg we'll crash and everyone dies, but would cause enough of a distraction in the cockpit that makes the pilot's job a little more difficult. Add an emergency situation, and you don't want a bunch of cell phones going off while you're trying to communicate and do things.

/although, truth be told, we're at 30K' and I know we're dead? Fark you, lady, I'm at least calling my family to say goodbye.


I think its pretty hard on the cell tower networks too. When you are on the ground, your phone can only see and thus generate traffic to only a few cell towers. And your groundspeed is unlikely to exceed much over 120mph (high speed train) so handing off your call from one tower to the next is managable.

But add a few thousand feet of altitude over say, NYC, and your phone can now see many more towers, and at 500mph or so, hand offs from tower to tower are needed far more often. This can add a significant load to the network in routing your call, especially if every passenger on every plane was chatting away.

Now I heard that a few years ago, so I'm pretty certain that cell networks have become more robust since then, but the basic problem is the same.
 
2013-05-01 05:29:22 PM
Peki:
See now, if the FAA would come out with an explanation like THAT, everyone would be all, "Yeah, okay, that makes sense," because everyone and her mother is annoyed by those damn pops that you hear from speakers and shiat. Not a omg we'll crash and everyone dies, but would cause enough of a distraction in the cockpit that makes the pilot's job a little more difficult. Add an emergency situation, and you don't want a bunch of cell phones going off while you're trying to communicate and do things.

The ban came from the FCC, not the FAA, and where the hell did you hear the reason was "omg we'll crash and die?" from any person in a position of responsibility?
 
2013-05-01 06:05:46 PM
Oh my...Cargo shift huh? Never heard of that before...
I will be keeping an eye on the fatties walking about the aisle from now on. THEY SHALL NOT AGGLOMERATE UNDER MY WATCH!!
 
2013-05-01 06:59:43 PM

stryed: Oh my...Cargo shift huh? Never heard of that before...
I will be keeping an eye on the fatties walking about the aisle from now on. THEY SHALL NOT AGGLOMERATE UNDER MY WATCH!!


Even really stupendous fatties are essentially weightless fluff compared to an armored vehicle, which is what everyone is saying the plane was carrying.  An APC weighs like 30,000lbs, and tanks are well over 100,000.  I imagine if one of those pops loose during takeoff and slides to the back of the plane, there's not much you can do besides soil yourself.
 
2013-05-01 07:15:06 PM

raygundan: stryed: Oh my...Cargo shift huh? Never heard of that before...
I will be keeping an eye on the fatties walking about the aisle from now on. THEY SHALL NOT AGGLOMERATE UNDER MY WATCH!!

Even really stupendous fatties are essentially weightless fluff compared to an armored vehicle, which is what everyone is saying the plane was carrying.  An APC weighs like 30,000lbs, and tanks are well over 100,000.  I imagine if one of those pops loose during takeoff and slides to the back of the plane, there's not much you can do besides soil yourself.


Unless it's 100 fatties weighing 500kg each! Seriously, that does put things in perspective. Must be difficult fastening 50tons into place. I'm guessing noone made it and this whole situation sucks...
 
2013-05-01 07:22:33 PM
what was with the sound in that video?  You can hear the cameraman screwing with the thing...you can hear him curse ONCE, a good minute after the plane has augured in...but you can't hear the KABOOM of a giant plane hitting the ground and exploding?
 
2013-05-01 07:35:02 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


How about an explanation that even a normal person can understand.

Say I give you a rucksack that's stuffed to the brim with heavy equipment.  That's your load, and your back will today be playing the part of the cargo bay of our unfortunate aircraft.  Get that load on, son!

Good.  Now run the obstacle course.

I forgot to tell you, that ruck has a bad seam on one shoulder strap...if that breaks while you're in mid-sprint, what do you give your chances of being able to keep control, as opposed to being flung around by the weight of your out-of-control load?
 
2013-05-01 07:35:33 PM

thedumbone: Now, a paper airplane is more Newton that Bernoulli


All aeroplanes are both.
 
2013-05-01 07:40:13 PM

Lsherm: I need you to explain, in simple terms, why you think that plane took off ass down and nose up right off the runway to the point that it fell into a stall that suddenly shifted.  In a cargo plane.  Use physics.


CofG is aft. Plane pitches up. Wing stalls, Tail is still flying. CofG is in front of tail. Plane pitches down.
 
2013-05-01 07:45:13 PM

netringer: Because 747 pilots have no idea that yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go will lead to a stall/spin but you do?


The alternative explanation seems to be that everyone on Fark knows how to load a plane better than the load master.

Incidentally, if you read the accident report on AF447 you'll see the transcript of three fully trained and highly experienced commercial pilots completely failing to recognize a stall for several minutes.
 
2013-05-01 07:45:37 PM

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


Hmm, well if a load has come loose, it will STAY loose, and act like a giant slide hammer.

Step 1:  While in a climb, the cargo comes loose and proceeds to slide to the back of the plane.  The plane is now suddenly rear-heavy, along with there being a hell of a BANG coming from the cargo bay as everything hits the back wall.  The plane pitches tail-down.
Step 2:  The pilot goes "Oh shiat!" and shoves his stick forward to correct for the tail-down attitude.  This works well until he passes 0 degrees, at which point the plane is now slightly nose down.
Step 3:  All the loose shiat that was in the tail?  It's still following gravity and still unrestrained, and is therefore now sliding towards the nose.
Step 4:  The plane is now massively NOSE-heavy.  Nose-first crash ensues.
 
2013-05-01 07:54:18 PM

HBK: So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened?


The vortex wake lasts a surprisingly long time. I remember a 737 captain showing me (I was in the jump seat) that by shifting up and down by 50 feet he could move in and out of the wake of the last plane to go down that airway, which would have been 10 or more minutes before. Shows how accurate altimeters and navigation receivers are too.
 
2013-05-01 07:57:28 PM

Thunderboy: I'm sure soaring is an amazing experience, but everything about the sport just screams "this is not something people should do" to me.


You'rein a small, light aircraft, designed to land in small fields and with no fuel around to go boom. Much safer feeling than powered stuff, for me anyway. Mind you I was the seventeenth glider to enter the first good thermal I ever used, which was interesting.
 
2013-05-01 08:00:26 PM

BetterMetalSnake: Yeah. Those things have the right amount of wings, but too few wheels and engines.


Meh. An engine's just something to go wrong.
 
2013-05-01 08:14:45 PM

orbister: Thunderboy: I'm sure soaring is an amazing experience, but everything about the sport just screams "this is not something people should do" to me.

You'rein a small, light aircraft, designed to land in small fields and with no fuel around to go boom. Much safer feeling than powered stuff, for me anyway. Mind you I was the seventeenth glider to enter the first good thermal I ever used, which was interesting.


Got to watch a glider perform at an airshow once. I never knew that they can do most of the basic aerobatic maneuvers, only more slowly. Barrel rolls, loops, aileron rolls, etc. Very impressive.
 
2013-05-01 08:20:27 PM

Ishidan: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.

Hmm, well if a load has come loose, it will STAY loose, and act like a giant slide hammer.

Step 1:  While in a climb, the cargo comes loose and proceeds to slide to the back of the plane.  The plane is now suddenly rear-heavy, along with there being a hell of a BANG coming from the cargo bay as everything hits the back wall.  The plane pitches tail-down.
Step 2:  The pilot goes "Oh shiat!" and shoves his stick forward to correct for the tail-down attitude.  This works well until he passes 0 degrees, at which point the plane is now slightly nose down.
Step 3:  All the loose shiat that was in the tail?  It's still following gravity and still unrestrained, and is therefore now sliding towards the nose.
Step 4:  The plane is now massively NOSE-heavy.  Nose-first crash ensues.


Yah it looks like when he stalled and rolled 90° to the right the nose fell faster than the tail and that let the cargo slide back forward.

I bet they would have survived the stupid 747 tricks if the cargo had come loose 30 seconds later.
 
2013-05-01 08:43:57 PM

raygundan: stryed: Oh my...Cargo shift huh? Never heard of that before...
I will be keeping an eye on the fatties walking about the aisle from now on. THEY SHALL NOT AGGLOMERATE UNDER MY WATCH!!

Even really stupendous fatties are essentially weightless fluff compared to an armored vehicle, which is what everyone is saying the plane was carrying.  An APC weighs like 30,000lbs, and tanks are well over 100,000.  I imagine if one of those pops loose during takeoff and slides to the back of the plane, there's not much you can do besides soil yourself.


I was on a 747 from NYC to Europe. After landing, they held us on the plane until cargo could be unloaded, as our combined passenger weight was keeping the nose on the ground.

As I was waiting, the ground crew popped open the clamshell cover around one of the engines. Gradually more and more guys came over. There was a lot of face pulling, head scratching, pointing, waving more guys over and some serious head shaking whenever one walked away. Obviously, I have no idea what actually went wrong, but from the keystone cop body language, it was something major and they seemed suprised it hadn't fallen right off. In fact, as I was leaving the airport, it was being towed, with the covers still open, to what looked like a heavy repair hanger way out in the boondocks.
 
2013-05-01 08:49:29 PM

orbister: BetterMetalSnake: Yeah. Those things have the right amount of wings, but too few wheels and engines.

Meh. An engine's just something to go wrong.


You know that prop is only out there to keep the pilot cool, right?

Don't believe me? Turn it off and see how fast he starts to sweat-

/old joke
 
2013-05-01 09:21:21 PM

orbister: Lsherm: I need you to explain, in simple terms, why you think that plane took off ass down and nose up right off the runway to the point that it fell into a stall that suddenly shifted.  In a cargo plane.  Use physics.

CofG is aft. Plane pitches up. Wing stalls, Tail is still flying. CofG is in front of tail. Plane pitches down.


Ishidan: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.

Hmm, well if a load has come loose, it will STAY loose, and act like a giant slide hammer.

Step 1:  While in a climb, the cargo comes loose and proceeds to slide to the back of the plane.  The plane is now suddenly rear-heavy, along with there being a hell of a BANG coming from the cargo bay as everything hits the back wall.  The plane pitches tail-down.
Step 2:  The pilot goes "Oh shiat!" and shoves his stick forward to correct for the tail-down attitude.  This works well until he passes 0 degrees, at which point the plane is now slightly nose down.
Step 3:  All the loose shiat that was in the tail?  It's still following gravity and still unrestrained, and is therefore now sliding towards the nose.
Step 4:  The plane is now massively NOSE-heavy.  Nose-first crash ensues.


You both start out close, but neither finish correctly.
 
2013-05-01 09:23:48 PM

Ishidan: what was with the sound in that video?  You can hear the cameraman screwing with the thing...you can hear him curse ONCE, a good minute after the plane has augured in...but you can't hear the KABOOM of a giant plane hitting the ground and exploding?


You're not in a Michael Bay movie. There is no explosion, just a lot a fuel catching on fire very quickly.
 
2013-05-01 10:03:16 PM
Someone missed this class.

home.earthlink.net
 
2013-05-01 10:21:23 PM

Larva Lump: Someone missed this class.

[home.earthlink.net image 454x284]


Man did I have a huge crush on that one girl on that show, not the other one tho.  You know what I'm talking about.
 
2013-05-01 10:52:24 PM

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Ever balance a ruler on your finger?  A plane is the ruler, the wings are the finger.  Now, what happens if you move the weight of that ruler to one end?
 
2013-05-01 10:58:29 PM

Baloo Uriza: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Ever balance a ruler on your finger?  A plane is the ruler, the wings are the finger.  Now, what happens if you move the weight of that ruler to one end?


I'm not going to pull or smell your finger.
 
2013-05-01 11:11:51 PM

skinink: Yes, TSA are idiots and very annoying (and the worst I've seen so far are the TSA at JFK Airport in NY) but it really isn't bad enough to stop someone from traveling


Depends on if you're American or not.  Americans believe in the 4th Amendment.
 
2013-05-01 11:13:47 PM

Tangent2UrCurve: I've had dreams of planes crashing (mostly stall manner) too...I wonder if theres some bs subliminal meaning for it.


Jesus...you're the gypsy woman!
 
2013-05-01 11:19:59 PM
That's no Su-27!
 
2013-05-01 11:46:19 PM

GoldDude: Who can't learn to set the date/time on his dash-cam?  Remarkable video, and one that will hopefully be used when training people about the importance of securing cargo loads.


Some idiot dash cams reset their clock when you disconnect them from power.  A stupid design if you're talking about something that's supposed to start and stop  based on whether or not it has power input.  But, alas, some actually do this.  Worse, some models with GPS, despite having access to a highly precise time source  don't set their own clock and reset when left without power.

That said, I'm in the market for a dash cam that sets it's own clock based on GPS, saves to standard video formats (MPEG, anyone?) and traces in standard geolocation formats (GPX, anyone?).  Amazingly, despite blisteringly obvious open standards...I've yet to find one on the market that fits the bill.  And I'd rather do without than get tied into crapware on a platform I don't usually use...
 
2013-05-01 11:50:58 PM

eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.


Meanwhile, I was hoping to learn how to say "HOLY farkBALLS" in pashto.
 
2013-05-01 11:55:02 PM

Ishidan: what was with the sound in that video?  You can hear the cameraman screwing with the thing...you can hear him curse ONCE, a good minute after the plane has augured in...but you can't hear the KABOOM of a giant plane hitting the ground and exploding?


Vaporised fuel igniting in a fireball is not strictly speaking an explosion. There won't be a sonic boom pressure wave for one.
 
2013-05-01 11:58:45 PM

orbister: netringer: Because 747 pilots have no idea that yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go will lead to a stall/spin but you do?

The alternative explanation seems to be that everyone on Fark knows how to load a plane better than the load master.

Incidentally, if you read the accident report on AF447 you'll see the transcript of three fully trained and highly experienced commercial pilots completely failing to recognize a stall for several minutes.


Because they had been trained that the aircraft could not stall, and didn't notice that it had exited that foolproof mode. Like driving a car that has ABS brakes. If you didn't realise they were not working you'd mash the brake pedal to the floor in an emergency and cause a skid. If you knew the ABS wasn't working you'd moderate your braking effort to avoid locking up.
 
2013-05-02 12:47:21 AM

Flint Ironstag: orbister: netringer: Because 747 pilots have no idea that yank-back-on-the-yoke-and-don't-let-go will lead to a stall/spin but you do?

The alternative explanation seems to be that everyone on Fark knows how to load a plane better than the load master.

Incidentally, if you read the accident report on AF447 you'll see the transcript of three fully trained and highly experienced commercial pilots completely failing to recognize a stall for several minutes.

Because they had been trained that the aircraft could not stall, and didn't notice that it had exited that foolproof mode. Like driving a car that has ABS brakes. If you didn't realise they were not working you'd mash the brake pedal to the floor in an emergency and cause a skid. If you knew the ABS wasn't working you'd moderate your braking effort to avoid locking up.


not to refute the point you are making, ABS isn't a solid analogy. You know right away if ABS isn't working.
 
2013-05-02 01:02:59 AM

Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.


A cellphone interfering with the stereo amp/speaker system in the car.
 
2013-05-02 01:05:41 AM

Smallberries: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Sounds like cell phone interference. Used to get it if my cell was too close to a speaker cable. It happens all the time, I think it's the cell phone saying "I'm here any calls?" because it does not happen only as a call comes in.


The pattern seems more consistent with the phone making an outgoing call.  I can hear the synch pattern followed by a solid buzz indicating a call in progress.

/I work out of my car, I hear this shiat all the time
//Really bad when I'm listening to music on the tape adapter and got the adapter cord caught in the mount against the phone's antenna
 
2013-05-02 01:08:47 AM

realityVSperception: Now I heard that a few years ago, so I'm pretty certain that cell networks have become more robust since then, but the basic problem is the same.


Nope.  Ask anybody trying to make a cellphone call in Boston on Patriot's Day.
 
2013-05-02 01:16:05 AM

tgambitg: Flint Ironstag: Skyrmion: This is a bit off-topic, but can anyone explain to me what those static beeps are at 0:47 of the video? I've heard them in a lot of radio broadcasts, but I don't know what they are.

Cell phone. I hear them on my car radio if my phone is sitting on the tray under the radio. You hear them ever few minutes as the phone has to fine the closest tower and tell the tower it's there.

It's a phenomenon unique to GSM phones. CDMA and LTE (in most bands) won't cause the same interference. iDEN phones, on the other hand, drive electronics crazy. I had a junk iDEN phone that would cause my alarm clock on my nightstand to act as if it experienced a power surge and reset the time every time that phone talked to the tower.


Ah it's been quite some time since I've heard that sound, brings back memories of pre 2008 for me. That interference used to be my "ringtone", I'd usually keep my phone on silent but if my speakers started to act crazy then I knew I was about to get a text or call.
 
2013-05-02 02:50:42 AM

incrdbil: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: My guess is that the stall warning did not go off as it should.

I don't think they needed a warning to know something was wrong.


No, but a warning could have let the pilots know that something was going wrong in time to save the plane.
 
2013-05-02 03:13:29 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: incrdbil: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: My guess is that the stall warning did not go off as it should.

I don't think they needed a warning to know something was wrong.

No, but a warning could have let the pilots know that something was going wrong in time to save the plane.




Did you watch the video? Read what the most likely cause was? Cargo Shifted, game was over. I'm pretty darn sure all sorts of alarms were going off. Its not like they wouldn't have noticed what was happening without it.
 
2013-05-02 03:24:51 AM

Baloo Uriza: realityVSperception: Now I heard that a few years ago, so I'm pretty certain that cell networks have become more robust since then, but the basic problem is the same.

Nope.  Ask anybody trying to make a cellphone call in Boston on Patriot's Day.


I was refering to analog vs digital networks. But yeah, the cell system simply can't handle
everyone calling 911 at once. A lot has to happen to get that call through.

First, the call is routed to a 3rd party. They take the cell tower the call came in on and do a
database lookup to determine which 911 center should get the call. Then while
the call is being routed and answered, the cell network gets a location fix either by
gps or triangulation. This is then passed on to the third party who passes the location
data to the 911 operator. The 911 operator can also ask for location updates during the call.

One hidden tricky part is this. Originally 911 was implemented by the baby bells over landlines.
The messaging formats used to get the calling phone address and caller id data from the telco databases
to the 911 desks varied between the baby bells. There were two major formats used originally
(plus a couple of new ones added after cell phones took off). This wasn't a problem because they
were closed systems. Until cell phones came along. So now you have a cell phone using the
provider's format trying to reach a 911 desk which potentially uses a competing carrier's format.
The third party routing the 911 call from the phone to the 911 operator has to reformat the
data between the different communication protocols to make sure everything connects.

These systems also have to be redundant and operate with 99.9999% uptime. As a result they are
complicated and expensive. But they are sized for normal 911 call volume. When the big one hits california, forget about it. For starters, there aren't enough operators on duty to take the call volume, and the cell system just can't push that many calls through all at once.
 
2013-05-02 03:40:56 AM

buzzcut73: fatbear: For all those using coins and paper and aerodynamics theories you learned in high school to explain how this couldn't have possibly come from shifting cargo, it turns out - you're right!

step forward and claim your prize

The graphic in the video fails somewhat. The vehicles would have been loaded along the centerline and chained down, not secured with cargo netting along one side.

At least every MRAP I've seen transported by air were loaded in the way I described.  Like in this picture:

[www.nycaviation.com image 602x401]

The ones I've seen in person have been on a C-5, not a 747, but this pic is from a 747.


aaaaand... is insufficient to keep the vehicle from breaking loose if you pull the nose up too hard.
 
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