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(Yahoo)   Bagram crash recorded on dashcam--oh, my. A big airplane like that shouldn't just stop in mid-air   ( news.yahoo.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Bagram, Bagram Airfield, public-benefit corporation, evidence  
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33949 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Apr 2013 at 9:26 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



537 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-04-30 07:42:06 PM  
...holy crap
 
2013-04-30 07:47:13 PM  
Damn, that is a really bad stall.
 
2013-04-30 07:52:59 PM  
Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.
 
2013-04-30 07:54:56 PM  
but it didn't stop in mid air
 
2013-04-30 07:57:11 PM  

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Early word is that they were carrying 5 armored vehicles and something came loose.
 
2013-04-30 07:59:53 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Early word is that they were carrying 5 armored vehicles and something came loose.


That would match the video...  I used to do crash investigations, this isn't going to be pretty.
 
2013-04-30 08:04:48 PM  

remus: this isn't going to be pretty.


opposed to what?
 
2013-04-30 08:07:06 PM  
Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.
 
2013-04-30 08:10:20 PM  
I hate hearing the engines. Their intensity matches the fight that was going on in the cockpit.
 
2013-04-30 08:17:43 PM  

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


My thought as well. The gear is still down, which suggests they were already far too busy to worry about putting the gear up.
 
2013-04-30 08:18:03 PM  

SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?


I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...
 
2013-04-30 08:20:43 PM  

remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.


I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...
 
2013-04-30 08:25:31 PM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


what happened next?
 
2013-04-30 08:26:31 PM  

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


Yes, in Germany.  F-4 Phantom.  Martin Baker Mark III seat.  The crew chief wanted to leave this mortal coil, so he did it on purpose.
 
2013-04-30 08:27:35 PM  
For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.
 
2013-04-30 08:27:40 PM  

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?


We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.
 
2013-04-30 08:29:45 PM  

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


I was an instructor in the Air Training Corps here in the UK years ago. A bunch of cadets were on a week camp at a RAF airbase and were being shown round a hangar including a Tornado being serviced, with chances to sit in the seats etc. After they left a mechanic notices one of the pins from the ejector seat was missing....
He told the FS, the FS told the officer, the officer told the base commander etc. It went up to the top of the RAF and then back down the chain of command of the ATC, in about half an hour. Every cadet was confined to quarters, uniformed ATC staff were on the carpet, civilian staff were almost as confined to quarters as the cadets. When the guilty cadet confessed his parents got a call saying "Your son is no longer in the Air Cadets. You have to collect him now". The atmosphere lasted the rest of the week and affected the next few weeks groups as well.

They do not mess around with ejector seats.
 
2013-04-30 08:36:57 PM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.


no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all
 
2013-04-30 08:47:28 PM  

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.
 
2013-04-30 08:48:23 PM  

saladan0: Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.


Private company - not USAF.  In the article.
 
2013-04-30 08:48:57 PM  

saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.


But it was a contractor plane, not USAF.  Would Air Force guys be loading and checking a contractor plane?
 
2013-04-30 08:49:43 PM  

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all


You had an ellipsis for lunch?
 
2013-04-30 08:51:12 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?


It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.
 
2013-04-30 08:57:32 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


we're not pac man, here. i wanna know what remus did after he continued eating lunch
 
2013-04-30 08:58:22 PM  
JohnAnnArbor:

But it was a contractor plane, not USAF.  Would Air Force guys be loading and checking a contractor plane?

If it was on a USAF base, probably.
 
2013-04-30 09:09:11 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


Sometimes I like to sit down for a nice movie with a bowl full of exclamation points.
 
2013-04-30 09:16:11 PM  
I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.
 
2013-04-30 09:23:05 PM  

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.


This underscores why you must be careful.
 
2013-04-30 09:23:08 PM  

remus: Yes, in Germany. F-4 Phantom. Martin Baker Mark III seat. The crew chief wanted to leave this mortal coil, so he did it on purpose.


I hadn't heard the last part before, only knew it was quite a while ago.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-04-30 09:28:06 PM  
It looked like he almost had it under control when the ground got in the way. That's why you should build your airport at the edge of a cliff. Of course then you get complaints about landing.
 
2013-04-30 09:29:48 PM  
This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?
 
2013-04-30 09:34:17 PM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


you're a real life TV character. you must get all the women.
 
2013-04-30 09:34:40 PM  
Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.
 
2013-04-30 09:35:39 PM  
That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.

BTW, Denzel Washington's movie "Flight" is worth seeing for two reasons: the special effects of him landing that plane, and seeing Nadine Velazquez naked. Damn that woman is hot!
 
2013-04-30 09:36:52 PM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.



Reminds me of a story I heard while visiting my brother down in Del Rio,Texas, where he was an instructor pilot at the time.  They had a jet in the unit out on a training mission, when the jet started to come apart and enter a rapid uncontrolled roll.  Instructor gave the instruction to eject, and they did safely (which apparently shocked the wingman, given their roll rate).

But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.
 
2013-04-30 09:37:56 PM  

SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?


an unmanned blimp carrying a payload of fresh wild flowers?
 
2013-04-30 09:38:31 PM  
In the pre-video days, like 1865. They just had to say it with words when there was a bad accident.

"The Indianapolis Journal reports the following horrible accident, by which a Mrs. KRONAN lost her life: She was killed in crossing the railroad track on Illinois Street. At the time Mrs. KRONAN was attempting to cross, the Terre Haute train was coming in, while the switch engine of the I. & C. road was taking up seven or eight freight cars to the Terre Haute Depot. The woman attempted to get out of the way of the Terre Haute train, and in doing so was unfortunate enough to get in the way of the freight train. She was thrown upon the track, and two or three cars passed directly over her head, mangling it in a most fearful manner; not a feature of her face was left, and identification was impossible except by her dress. Her brains were scattered about, and even her tongue dislocated from her head, and left by the side of the rail. "
 
2013-04-30 09:41:26 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.


Did you have to tell your parens?
 
2013-04-30 09:41:40 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.


Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.
 
2013-04-30 09:41:55 PM  

saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0

It seems it was indeed a cargo shift that happened immediately after takeoff, and as those above me noticed, they didnt even get the gears up.

The question is if the loadmaster had the cargo improperly secured, or if it was a due to a malfunction of the tiedown equipment. Regardless the USAF is going to be reeling from this one for a while.


I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

If I had to bet I'd put my money on mechanical failure.
 
2013-04-30 09:43:18 PM  
D A Y - U M !

/Not cool peeps... not cool.
 
2013-04-30 09:44:16 PM  
Those are some nasty looking clouds in the background.....any chance wind shear could have played a role?
 
2013-04-30 09:44:51 PM  
good lord that's creepy
 
2013-04-30 09:45:41 PM  

Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.


I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.

The vid is just gnarly. Thanks for the Farkers who explained cargo shift, because my family has been in the aerospace business long enough that I know there's not much mechanical that can cause that.
 
2013-04-30 09:45:48 PM  

LessO2: Those are some nasty looking clouds in the background.....any chance wind shear could have played a role?


typically you take off into the wind, also I find it highly unlikely that all 4 engines suddenly said "fek it"
 
2013-04-30 09:48:40 PM  

Flint Ironstag: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

I was an instructor in the Air Training Corps here in the UK years ago. A bunch of cadets were on a week camp at a RAF airbase and were being shown round a hangar including a Tornado being serviced, with chances to sit in the seats etc. After they left a mechanic notices one of the pins from the ejector seat was missing....
He told the FS, the FS told the officer, the officer told the base commander etc. It went up to the top of the RAF and then back down the chain of command of the ATC, in about half an hour. Every cadet was confined to quarters, uniformed ATC staff were on the carpet, civilian staff were almost as confined to quarters as the cadets. When the guilty cadet confessed his parents got a call saying "Your son is no longer in the Air Cadets. You have to collect him now". The atmosphere lasted the rest of the week and affected the next few weeks groups as well.

They do not mess around with ejector seats.




Always bugged me getting in an out of F-16s.

/weapons
 
2013-04-30 09:49:19 PM  

saladan0: For those interested, here is the preliminary reports from aviation-safety

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0">http:/ /aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0



FTL "According to eyewitness reports, the airplane attained a very steep nose-up attitude"

biatch
 
2013-04-30 09:49:24 PM  

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.
 
2013-04-30 09:50:10 PM  
Well, I think it's safe to rule out fuel starvation...
 
2013-04-30 09:51:07 PM  
Socialism fails again.
 
2013-04-30 09:51:21 PM  
I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?
 
2013-04-30 09:51:29 PM  
Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me
 
2013-04-30 09:51:30 PM  

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.
 
2013-04-30 09:53:01 PM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


I was USAF from 1982 to 1992. At Myrtle Beach we had a guy eject as the plane was hitting the ground. The rail holding the seat in place came loose and he ejected forward into the instrument cluster and the forward, fixed canopy. We had nav panel switches 6 inches deep with what looked like head cheese.

I was Com Nav and the on scene investigator always used our shop because we had stations with big magnifying / flourescent light things we use for soldering.
 
2013-04-30 09:53:14 PM  
What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?
 
2013-04-30 09:54:13 PM  

HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?


There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.
 
2013-04-30 09:54:40 PM  

remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.


The bird should have been thawed before it went into the canopy.

/Sorry, had to say it.
 
2013-04-30 09:54:57 PM  

skinink: That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.

BTW, Denzel Washington's movie "Flight" is worth seeing for two reasons: the special effects of him landing that plane, and seeing Nadine Velazquez naked. Damn that woman is hot!


I'm not sure "lite" or even "light" is the appropriate word.
 
2013-04-30 09:55:16 PM  
Musta been a hellova 10 second ride.  Hope the rest was over quick.

/nothing in this universe kills as fast or as thorough as physics.
 
2013-04-30 09:55:31 PM  

Acharne: There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.


You didn't mention the midget gangbang, I notice.
 
2013-04-30 09:55:36 PM  

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?


Dessert, I'm guessing.
 
2013-04-30 09:56:08 PM  

skinink: BTW, Denzel Washington's movie "Flight" is worth seeing for two reasons: the special effects of him landing that plane, and seeing Nadine Velazquez naked. Damn that woman is hot!


Oh God, read this interview where she discussing putting tape on her lady parts and bending over for Denzel.

/bunk
//was already in it
///might go for round 2
 
2013-04-30 09:56:25 PM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.


Eat it?
 
2013-04-30 09:56:50 PM  
Went looking and found a newspaper article about the accident- it was an S3 ,not an A6, but just as depressing.  I'd forgotten about the staircase collapse that day, just to add to the error list.

http://news.google.com/newspaper s?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAIBA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907
 
2013-04-30 09:56:53 PM  

LadySusan: I'm not sure "lite" or even "light" is the appropriate word.


Autocorrect has enriched our lives in so many ways.
 
2013-04-30 09:57:01 PM  

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


You can, sometimes. There is no CG sensor, but you can extract it from vehicle dynamics models using thrust, attitude, etc.
 
2013-04-30 09:58:04 PM  

HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?


Not much.  He pulls over for a bit, calms his dog, then moves to drive around the wreckage.  When the video cuts off, it appears he made it.
 
2013-04-30 09:58:13 PM  
Crashing Bagram Style.
 
2013-04-30 09:58:55 PM  
I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....
 
2013-04-30 09:59:02 PM  

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


In this one, if you believe some of the press, they made a mayday call and said they were in a stall due to a weight shift.  So there's that.  It was a 747-400F, so at most about 20 years old.  I think that means digital flight recorders which should yield a lot of data.
 
2013-04-30 09:59:05 PM  
Amazing video framing of a total nightmare come to life.
 
2013-04-30 09:59:17 PM  

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/
 
2013-04-30 09:59:49 PM  

Matthew Keene: In the pre-video days, like 1865. They just had to say it with words when there was a bad accident.

"The Indianapolis Journal reports the following horrible accident, by which a Mrs. KRONAN lost her life: She was killed in crossing the railroad track on Illinois Street. At the time Mrs. KRONAN was attempting to cross, the Terre Haute train was coming in, while the switch engine of the I. & C. road was taking up seven or eight freight cars to the Terre Haute Depot. The woman attempted to get out of the way of the Terre Haute train, and in doing so was unfortunate enough to get in the way of the freight train. She was thrown upon the track, and two or three cars passed directly over her head, mangling it in a most fearful manner; not a feature of her face was left, and identification was impossible except by her dress. Her brains were scattered about, and even her tongue dislocated from her head, and left by the side of the rail. "


a lot of military incident/injury reports read that way. my dad was notorious for writing fairly humorous ones with something other than a sterile narrative.
 
2013-04-30 09:59:51 PM  

Ambivalence: JohnAnnArbor:

But it was a contractor plane, not USAF.  Would Air Force guys be loading and checking a contractor plane?

If it was on a USAF base, probably.


It's a joint ISAF base. Could have been anyone's (as in ISAF forces) cargo.
 
2013-04-30 10:00:24 PM  

theorellior: LadySusan: I'm not sure "lite" or even "light" is the appropriate word.

Autocorrect has enriched our lives in so many ways.




/oblig
 
2013-04-30 10:00:51 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.


Oh, .....

wow.
 
2013-04-30 10:01:21 PM  
Could have been a load shift or breaking free. Also the plane may have simply been overloaded and/or loaded incorrectly.

/I skip on flying National Airlines myself for hops in the future.
 
2013-04-30 10:01:42 PM  
I read there were "multiple" MRAPs on the plane. Just one of those shifting towards the tail and...well you see the video.
 
2013-04-30 10:03:08 PM  
Bad.
I watched a plane like that go down.
22 souls lost.
We were still finding pieces years later.
Finger bones, etc.
 
2013-04-30 10:04:01 PM  
for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?
 
2013-04-30 10:04:24 PM  

skinink: That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.


What's starting to bother me is that I wouldn't mind going out like that.

I might change my mind as I get closer to the ground.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:09 PM  

Pfighting Polish: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.


You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:19 PM  

people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....


I haven't flown in over 33 yrs.. TSA means I'll never fly again.

/Well, I had no reason to fly. TSA just cements the decision.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:45 PM  

vudukungfu: 22 souls bodies lost.


Don't worry, the souls will be waiting for you in heaven.
 
2013-04-30 10:05:46 PM  

Peki: Warthog: But then they landed.  In the middle of a herd of angry west Texas steer.  They ended up climbing what passed for a tree in that part of Texas -- a scrawny thing full of thorns -- and ended up sustaining greater injuries from the tree while evading the bovines than they did in the ejection.  Everyone in the unit thought this was hilariously funny.

I've always wondered about these stories. The line I was told was that ejection seats generally compress your spine so badly in the attempt to get you TFO of the way that walking afterwards is pretty much impossible.



Again to hear my brother tell it, depends on the seat and the conditions under which you eject.  The new seats are 'smart' and use different degrees and direction of thrust depending on a host of factors.  At least in some of his F-16 units they tend to refer to the jets as disposable, and talk about ejecting as returning the jet to the tax payers.  They said the two kinds of F-16 pilots are those who'd ejected and those who would, given that it is a single engine jet with a stubby little wing.  Knock on wood, his F-16 units have only lost one jet I can recall in the time he's been flying, but he came very close to having to bail out one dark night over the Sea of Japan.  Fortunately he nursed it home.
 
2013-04-30 10:06:52 PM  
Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.
 
2013-04-30 10:07:16 PM  
Damn.
 
2013-04-30 10:07:19 PM  

redsquid: Pfighting Polish: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Some people just don't understand the aste-risks.

You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.


Not enough lube left so we only got a semicolon
 
2013-04-30 10:07:42 PM  

RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.


Departure stalls are nasty. I mean seriously, never want one to happen to you as a pilot, nasty. A big chunk of stall training covers slow flight and stalls. Power on (full power, 20' - 40' of flaps) simulate departure stalls, except for one thing: you have altitude. That's why they drill power on and power off stalls into pilots. One happens on takeoff, the other at landing. Takeoff and landing: the most likely times for an incident to occur.

The pilot in the video? I can't say what happened, but wow. Power on, right wing stall, wing drop without it looking like the pilot attempted to nose over. Just wow.

Don't take the above as gospel though. The problem is perspective. The pilot may may have tried to push the nose down, but the video's perspective might not show that.
 
2013-04-30 10:08:18 PM  

Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.


Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting
 
2013-04-30 10:09:09 PM  

Dr Jack Badofsky: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Did you have to tell your parens?


She was a virgin right? You broke her hyphen.
 
2013-04-30 10:09:12 PM  
Makes me glad we do not have flying cars
 
2013-04-30 10:10:13 PM  
O_O

can't sleep. airplane dropping on top of me.
 
2013-04-30 10:10:31 PM  

skinink: Nadine Velazquez naked


[motherofgod.jpg]
 
2013-04-30 10:10:32 PM  
To answer everyone's questions of it if were a USAF loadmaster, or a civilian.  It is a civilian loadmaster, as USAF loadmasters do not mess with the civilian aircraft on the bases out there.  They have contractors and civilian employees to take care of all the civilian air traffic out of the bases, and of course the military deals with military

/USAF
//OEF 2011
 
2013-04-30 10:10:46 PM  

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Think about the center of gravity of a plane loaded with a bunch of heavy objects- it's like a seesaw.  If the objects shift aft suddenly, the plane's nose will come up.  If there's enough weight back there, the plane's control surfaces don't have enough authority to point the nose back down.  Plane climbs too fast, loses airspeed and stalls.  Stall recovery requires you to get the nose down, but you can't  because of the too-far aft CG, and you get exactly what the video shows.
 
2013-04-30 10:11:17 PM  

Texas Gabe: Dr Jack Badofsky: I_Am_Weasel: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.

This underscores why you must be careful.

Did you have to tell your parens?

She was a virgin right? You broke her hyphen.


Maybe you'll get lucky and it's just a delayed period.
 
2013-04-30 10:11:31 PM  

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Get a dinner plate.  Balance it on the tip of your finger.  Then put a dinner roll on the center of the plate.  You can still balance it, because the center of gravity is still at the center of the plate.  Now move the roll to the edge of the plate.  You can't balance it at the center point, because the center of gravity has moved so far towards the edge of the plate.

In very general terms, in an airplane, you want the center of gravity to be at a point that basically keeps the plane balanced like the plate with the roll at the middle, except with the wings in balance.  If the cargo shifts to the tail, the tail falls down, and no amount of control surface movement on the wings will bring the nose down and tail back up.  Eventually the wing loses lift, the plane stalls, and gravity takes over.  That's EXACTLY what you see in the video.
 
2013-04-30 10:12:13 PM  

RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?



You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

 If everything else checks out you can use the pitch rate(and other flight dynamics) combined with elevator position, etc to determine what kind of weight shift would result in that motion.  If the back figured weight shift fits with the weight of a cargo parcel and the available free run it would have if turned loose, you have a good idea that the cargo shifted.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:16 PM  

inglixthemad: RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.

Departure stalls are nasty. I mean seriously, never want one to happen to you as a pilot, nasty. A big chunk of stall training covers slow flight and stalls. Power on (full power, 20' - 40' of flaps) simulate departure stalls, except for one thing: you have altitude. That's why they drill power on and power off stalls into pilots. One happens on takeoff, the other at landing. Takeoff and landing: the most likely times for an incident to occur.

The pilot in the video? I can't say what happened, but wow. Power on, right wing stall, wing drop without it looking like the pilot attempted to nose over. Just wow.

Don't take the above as gospel though. The problem is perspective. The pilot may may have tried to push the nose down, but the video's perspective might not show that.


northdallasgazette.comView Full Size


I cannot help myself.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:26 PM  

diaphoresis: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

I haven't flown in over 33 yrs.. TSA means I'll never fly again.

/Well, I had no reason to fly. TSA just cements the decision.


Yes, TSA are idiots and very annoying (and the worst I've seen so far are the TSA at JFK Airport in NY) but it really isn't bad enough to stop someone from traveling. Actually I was surprised that the TSa at Logan Airport in Boston was pretty straightforward and how professional the agents were.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:42 PM  

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: I got crazy with my girlfriend one time while eating some ellipses. I was't being careful so it led to a pregnant pause.


Newbies, newbies! The fun really starts when you move up to diacriticals. More fun with foreigners, I say.
 
2013-04-30 10:13:43 PM  

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Not a pilot, but my guess is that the additional, sudden weight shift into the back rendered the elevators (small wings below the rudder) useless, causing the stall.


/stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night
 
2013-04-30 10:15:07 PM  

fusillade762: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.


I've had dreams of planes crashing (mostly stall manner) too...I wonder if theres some bs subliminal meaning for it.

/One dream actually looked exactly like this, especially the fighting to level out at the end
//I work in air cargo. Biggest fear is for things like this to happen.
 
2013-04-30 10:15:18 PM  

Bigjohn3592: RoyBatty: What sort of evidence can be used to determine a weight shift?

Can you get shifting CG out of a black box, or can you only get, engines were operating normally, flaps were set to ..., etc.?


You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

 If everything else checks out you can use the pitch rate(and other flight dynamics) combined with elevator position, etc to determine what kind of weight shift would result in that motion.  If the back figured weight shift fits with the weight of a cargo parcel and the available free run it would have if turned loose, you have a good idea that the cargo shifted.


With a flat, low-speed landing like that, they might be able to look at the wreckage to see if any of the cargo looks out of place.  Perhaps look for broken straps or attachment points.
 
2013-04-30 10:15:34 PM  

SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?


For some reason that reminded me of...

i23.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2013-04-30 10:15:48 PM  

aedude01: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/


The guy (older man, can't remember his name, former Beech salesman) put it best by saying you can't stop the airport, or a city, from growing. One of the smartest things they do now is "growth planning" by airports. One of the dumbest things they do is not clearing the approach lines for a mile.

Sure, you can't build anything taller than X near an airports nowadays (I've flown into some older fields where power lines and towers make things "interesting" to say the least) but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)
 
2013-04-30 10:16:35 PM  

Shostie: JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.

Sometimes I like to sit down for a nice movie with a bowl full of exclamation points.


That's got to be hard on your colon...
 
2013-04-30 10:17:10 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Think about the center of gravity of a plane loaded with a bunch of heavy objects- it's like a seesaw.  If the objects shift aft suddenly, the plane's nose will come up.  If there's enough weight back there, the plane's control surfaces don't have enough authority to point the nose back down.  Plane climbs too fast, loses airspeed and stalls.  Stall recovery requires you to get the nose down, but you can't  because of the too-far aft CG, and you get exactly what the video shows.


And if it wasn't the last aft cargo, it probably wasn't the last aft to go aft.
'
 
2013-04-30 10:18:02 PM  

theorellior: Acharne: There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.

You didn't mention the midget gangbang, I notice.


That's because I didn't notice! Wow man. Thanks, I'd have never caught that if I didn't watch the back seats of the other cars so closely.
 
2013-04-30 10:18:20 PM  

ZAZ: It looked like he almost had it under control when the ground got in the way. That's why you should build your airport at the edge of a cliff. Of course then you get complaints about landing.


If the load was loose then it would probably shift back to the front making the plane do a nose dive, I would imagine.
 
2013-04-30 10:19:11 PM  
Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway
 
2013-04-30 10:19:14 PM  

inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/

The guy (older man, can't remember his name, former Beech salesman) put it best by saying you can't stop the airport, or a city, from growing. One of the smartest things they do now is "growth planning" by airports. One of the dumbest things they do is not clearing the approach lines for a mile.

Sure, you can't build anything taller than X near an airports nowadays (I've flown into some older fields where power lines and towers make things "interesting" to say the least) but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)


My thoughts exactly (and my father a former Air Force navigator has made the same comment).  At DCA they built a public park around it.  Not a bad idea really, as most of the time it's only a few joggers and bikers.  It's easier to move them out of the way during a crash than a 3BR McMansion.
 
2013-04-30 10:20:16 PM  
Notice how calm and quiet the guy was? I'm calling a false flag. There was something on that plane Obama didn't want going to the UAE. This guy just HAPPENED to be there recording this as calm as you like? This video wasn't supposed to get released. This guy is probably now in GTMO.

/amidoingitright?
 
2013-04-30 10:20:39 PM  

inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.

Yup.  Right by Boeing.  I've driven that road many a time.

For some crazy reason they keep building houses under the flight line.  One of these days they're going to learn the hard way. :/

The guy (older man, can't remember his name, former Beech salesman) put it best by saying you can't stop the airport, or a city, from growing. One of the smartest things they do now is "growth planning" by airports. One of the dumbest things they do is not clearing the approach lines for a mile.

Sure, you can't build anything taller than X near an airports nowadays (I've flown into some older fields where power lines and towers make things "interesting" to say the least) but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)


What happens when neighborhoods spring up under flight paths.
 
2013-04-30 10:20:40 PM  

jaylectricity: skinink: That's always been my biggest fear, to be on a plane that just stalls and drops from the sky lite a bag of bricks.

What's starting to bother me is that I wouldn't mind going out like that.

I might change my mind as I get closer to the ground.


I would imagine the phrase "on second thought..." would be mixed in with a few last minute expletives.
 
2013-04-30 10:21:20 PM  

Nuclear Monk: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

an unmanned blimp carrying a payload of fresh wild flowers?


Aaah.  A peace drone.
 
2013-04-30 10:21:31 PM  

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


It's kinda like this:
funny.phView Full Size
 
2013-04-30 10:21:34 PM  
juvandy

When the cargo comes loose during takeoff, it shifts toward the back.  This causes the aircraft to pitch up more than the pilot commands (think of like a teeter totter), and at some point the wing stalls.The center of gravity of the airplane moves to the aft as well.  If the cg goes far enough back, it will cause the plane to become unstable and uncontrollable.  More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Here is another video of cargo shifting after take off.  It's deck video of a C-2 Greyhound getting catapulted from the carrier.  One of the snaps broke, and the cargo got loose.  The story is that the first crew who what supposed to take it said no and got a good a** chewing.  So the Captain found another loadmaster and crew, who were willing to take it and ended up putting it in the drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlDmMwI9cik
 
2013-04-30 10:22:19 PM  

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Most amazing thing is there is one muffled "fark" during that whole thing. I would have been washed away in a flood of terror diarrhea and hoarse from screaming newly invented vulgar phrases had that happened right in front of me


I likewise would have been using military-grade expletives in the chance that the plane could be lifted by profanity alone.

/My guess is they loaded the plane thinking in pounds, but loaded kilograms instead.
 
2013-04-30 10:22:33 PM  

flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway


Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.
 
2013-04-30 10:23:36 PM  

Warthog: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Get a dinner plate.  Balance it on the tip of your finger.  Then put a dinner roll on the center of the plate.  You can still balance it, because the center of gravity is still at the center of the plate.  Now move the roll to the edge of the plate.  You can't balance it at the center point, because the center of gravity has moved so far towards the edge of the plate.

In very general terms, in an airplane, you want the center of gravity to be at a point that basically keeps the plane balanced like the plate with the roll at the middle, except with the wings in balance.  If the cargo shifts to the tail, the tail falls down, and no amount of control surface movement on the wings will bring the nose down and tail back up.  Eventually the wing loses lift, the plane stalls, and gravity takes over.  That's EXACTLY what you see in the video.


Someone told me that way back in Vietnam a B-52 did a barrel roll when a loaded fuel tank broke and shifted to the outside of the wing. No idea if it's true or not. Never found confirmation. Possibly just an urban legend.
 
2013-04-30 10:24:10 PM  

skinink: Yes, TSA are idiots and very annoying (and the worst I've seen so far are the TSA at JFK Airport in NY) but it really isn't bad enough to stop someone from traveling. Actually I was surprised that the TSa at Logan Airport in Boston was pretty straightforward and how professional the agents were


We managed to get to Europe out of LAX in 2010 without having to go through the X-ray machines (would have ended the trip as I flat out refuse). The worst was actually coming back; all I could think was "this is what the Iron Curtain must have looked like." TSA wasn't bad really; I had a worse experience trying to get to Canada with a full leg cast (I got taken into one of those rooms they tell you about).

Bigjohn3592: You can't directly get cg from the black box.  But you can see if all the other systems were normal.  If all the elevator systems were OK.  Fuel is often used to balance large airplanes.  Black box might tell you fuel levels in the fore and aft tanks.

. .

Ty again to you and others for the info. I don't love Fark for the articles, but for all the cool shiat you get in the threads.
 
2013-04-30 10:24:32 PM  
That is sad, i feel sorry for the crew.

Imagine being on that bus... I would probably have beat the shiat out of the driver for not stopping sooner
 
2013-04-30 10:24:36 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: http://news.google.com/newspaper s?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAIBA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907


Heard about this at FRAC six years later, when I was aout to get my wings. A cuple years later I watched my buddy's S-3 invert and crash off the Enterprise. 3 dead and one who might as well be. Ejected inverted and it looked like the plane fell on them as well. Shiatty day.
 
2013-04-30 10:25:57 PM  

labman: Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.


Not really, it shows that they went quick and didn't suffer.
 
2013-04-30 10:27:02 PM  
Just goes to show how fragile and weak our technology is.

Something moved. Seven people dead.
 
2013-04-30 10:27:30 PM  
boom
 
2013-04-30 10:27:41 PM  

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Normally, a plane is "sitting" on its wings, with the center of gravity pretty much on top of the wings.  Something came loose inside as the plane was climbing and all the stuff in the plane slid/rolled/tumbled/crashed towards the back, making the center of gravity move aft, causing the tail of the plane to dip and the nose to rise.  The angle of wings became to high and they lost their lift (this is called a stall) and the plane fell down like a rock.
 
2013-04-30 10:31:17 PM  

boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.


Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously
 
2013-04-30 10:32:24 PM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Just goes to show how fragile and weak our technology is.

Something moved. Seven people dead.


Aye. We're decades behind where we should be on nylon binding equipment.

Blew all our synthetic fiber research money on that Mars rover contraption that'll never amount to anything. :(
 
2013-04-30 10:32:34 PM  

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


Dad was stationed out there early 'Nam era. He loved telling the story of the one access road right off the end of the runway where a guy was tooling along not paying a BIT of attention with the stereo blaring in his cadillac convertible. I THINK he said it was a B52 came in a LOT low at JUST the right time only a few feet above the car. guy literally dove into the passenger seat and the car ran off the road. He  and some buddies were behind him and WERE paying attention so they slowed down to watch. Said it was one of the funniest things he had ever seen at the time.

The guy wasnt hurt, but his car had some issues.
 
2013-04-30 10:34:11 PM  

inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:


Princess Juliana International Airport:

4.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size

q8allinone.comView Full Size



api.ning.comView Full Size


farm7.staticflickr.comView Full Size
 
2013-04-30 10:34:34 PM  

jayhawk88: Seeing a plane do something like that when you're on the ground near it has got to be one of the most pants-crapping moments a person can have (aside from being on the plane I guess). Wichita has a couple of areas near Mid Continent and McConnell where landing planes can come in fairly low over roads, and anytime you're driving and feel that shadow pass it kind of gives you chills.


Whiteman AFB is only about 10 miles south of I-70. If you're very lucky you'll get to see the B-2's doing training runs. Those bastards are scary to see come flying over, especially since you don't hear them until they're right on top of you.
 
2013-04-30 10:34:40 PM  

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


farm9.staticflickr.comView Full Size
 
2013-04-30 10:35:41 PM  
Do a barrel roll!
 
2013-04-30 10:36:24 PM  

people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....


go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.
 
2013-04-30 10:36:25 PM  

aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.


Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.
 
2013-04-30 10:38:00 PM  

juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?


Where an aircraft would balance if put on a pin sturdy enough to do so is it's center of gravity (CG). The CG has to be within certain limits for a safe flight, and looser limits for prolonged flight (unlike the accident here). There are a handful of physics reasons for this, but suffice it to say a CG too far forward and the aircraft does not have enough control authority to raise the nose. Vice-versa for a CG well aft of limits.

The farther something gets from wherever it is suspended (a fulcrum) it is called an arm, and the arm x it's weight is the object's moment. Experiment: Try holding an egg in your hand. Then hold it with a short spoon horizontal to the ground. Then hold it with a long spoon, etc. An aircraft with a long deck and heavy objects as cargo has the potential to generate some serious pitching moments.

Asto how loose cargo can effect this: On takeoff, the aircraft is rapidly accelerating. Objects inside the plane want to stay in the same place in space, but anything restraining or attaching them to the airplane make them go along with it, like people in seats. When the restraints holding said objects in place break, the objects tend to try to stay where they are in space - i.e. the plane moves forward, the cargo does not - it moves backward relative to the rest of the aircraft. Add to this the vertical component of rotation and climb and it makes it worse. Also, once one thing breaks free, it often takes everything behind it with it, compounding the issue.

There may, as will likely be the case with this accident, not be enough control authority to overcome the out-of-balance situation this creates.
 
2013-04-30 10:40:29 PM  

Z1P2: labman: Those armored vehicles are heavy.

It's just sad that the family of those people is going to see that video.

Not really, it shows that they went quick and didn't suffer.


Some of the crew's family have seen the video...AVherald has a comments section on this video and some of the relatives have already left responses
 
2013-04-30 10:41:22 PM  
Peki: Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

Turning wouldn't be effective because at that steep of a pitch their airspeed is bleeding off pretty quick and the ailerons/spoilers are going to become less effective because they don't has as much airflow.  Also, being that slow would bring the stall on quicker because you lose lift on the wing that is on top of the turn.

At the point they were at, there would have been no way to recover.  In a plane that big, going to an large bank angle (for 747 probably anything over 30 degrees) and letting the nose fall, you are going to need a few thousand feet of altitude to get the airspeed up for control surfaces to be effective again.  And if you have loose cargo, there is a good chance that once you get nose down it can/will slide forward and either crush the flight station or shift the cg so far forward that the controls become too heavy and the aircraft won't respond.
 
2013-04-30 10:41:41 PM  

SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.


Also the first FINAL DESTINATION. http://youtu.be/DD_MAz96L70

theMagni: aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.

Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.


As horrible as that all sounds, that actually makes me feel better.  Hopefully the poor guys in the plane went out that quickly.
 
2013-04-30 10:42:02 PM  

LesserEvil: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The bird should have been thawed before it went into the canopy.

/Sorry, had to say it.


Old joke is old (but still funny :)
 
2013-04-30 10:42:28 PM  
... but people still build under the approaches near them. Then they complain about the noise. (Lady, the airport was there 50 years before your house was built. You didn't notice it?)

What happens when neighborhoods spring up under flight paths.


That happened here in Indy. RIGHT next to a busy GA airport called Eagle Creek they built some houses RIGHT NEXT to the airport. the neighborhood actually shares part of the driveway with the airport. (you turn off the road into the airport driveway (PAST THE AIRPORT SIGN!), and about a third of the way in you turn right into the neighborhood. Its DIRECTLY under the pattern.

They actually had the nerve to start petitioning the FAA and the city to have the airport shut down even though the airport had been there for many decades before, and there was absolutely NO way a buyer would NOT know they were near an airport. You pass a big 6x10' sign welcoming you to an airport, you SEE the airport as you turn into your neighborhood, etc.

At the time of the petition I was a fresh GA pilot that was using that airport and hearing about it made me wanna go all BATF and make the neighborhood look like the Branch Dividian complex. OOh  look, you no longer have a house. Isnt that unfortunate.  NOW GO TAKE YOUR INSURANCE MONEY AND BUILD SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!

We actually were forced to adjust our patterns a bit wider, werent allowed to turn out below 800' during takeoff so we would stay as far away from them as possible, etc.

Self important,
 
2013-04-30 10:42:37 PM  
Gross overload.
 
2013-04-30 10:43:54 PM  

boywondered: Peki: Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

Turning wouldn't be effective because at that steep of a pitch their airspeed is bleeding off pretty quick and the ailerons/spoilers are going to become less effective because they don't has as much airflow.  Also, being that slow would bring the stall on quicker because you lose lift on the wing that is on top of the turn....


This. By the time you can tell from the video that there's anything wrong it was probably already too late for the pilot to do anything about it.
 
2013-04-30 10:46:08 PM  
I was training to be a USAF C-130 Crew Chief when a broken leg sent me back to civilian life so I'm really not getting a kick out of this.
 
2013-04-30 10:46:30 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?



Maybe it just rolled off the tongue???
 
2013-04-30 10:46:37 PM  
who woulda thought FARK was full of professional pilots! simulator nerds!!

ftfm
 
2013-04-30 10:47:53 PM  

aedude01: theMagni: aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think? Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario? Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.

Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.

As horrible as that all sounds, that actually makes me feel better. Hopefully the poor guys in the plane went out that quickly.


That's assuming the Chupacabra  didn't get them first on the way down.  Likely why the pilot lost control.
 
2013-04-30 10:48:45 PM  
I had a dream last week where a plane did that, except into water. Weird.
 
2013-04-30 10:48:49 PM  
One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know
 
2013-04-30 10:48:56 PM  

Voiceofreason01: boywondered: Peki: Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

Turning wouldn't be effective because at that steep of a pitch their airspeed is bleeding off pretty quick and the ailerons/spoilers are going to become less effective because they don't has as much airflow.  Also, being that slow would bring the stall on quicker because you lose lift on the wing that is on top of the turn....

This. By the time you can tell from the video that there's anything wrong it was probably already too late for the pilot to do anything about it.


Oh yeah, I figured the Bagram pilot didn't have the time/altitude (in flight, I would imagine it's pretty much the same thing).
 
2013-04-30 10:49:29 PM  
... AND BUT A SINGLE fark WAS GIVEN THAT DAY:There was audio for the whole thing but not a single word during the whole crash???

/sure, one later in.. but really?
 
2013-04-30 10:50:29 PM  

Flab: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Normally, a plane is "sitting" on its wings, with the center of gravity pretty much on top of the wings.  Something came loose inside as the plane was climbing and all the stuff in the plane slid/rolled/tumbled/crashed towards the back, making the center of gravity move aft, causing the tail of the plane to dip and the nose to rise.  The angle of wings became to high and they lost their lift (this is called a stall) and the plane fell down like a rock.


You can actually kinda simulate this yourself.  When you put your hand out your car window with your thumb kinda curled down in front of your palm mimicking a wing, you will feel a little lift when held parallel to your direction of travel.  As you tilt(angle of attack) up, before the air hits the underside of your palm to lift up, you will notice any lifting effect just drops off and your hand falls.  This is a stall, and is what happens when cargo shifts and changes your angle of attack without enough speed, which causes a stall.
 
2013-04-30 10:50:33 PM  
This plane crash scene from "Knowing" kind of tripped me out.  (It does have Nicholas Cage so whatever)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPdwCnwuZ8w

Mainly because I used to fly commercial a lot.  Im not sure what I would do other than shiat my pants if the plane went down.
 
2013-04-30 10:51:32 PM  
aedude01: SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.

Also the first FINAL DESTINATION. http://youtu.be/DD_MAz96L70


oh yeah. plus the 'air emergency' series.

you watch all that, what are the chances?
 
2013-04-30 10:52:04 PM  

Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously


Possibly, but if that were done at altitude (which is the only way there would be time to do it), the structural stresses on an aircraft that size would tear it apart... not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage.
 
2013-04-30 10:53:07 PM  

WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know


Not true. Not likely, but not true. Ever been in a regional jet when they ask passengers to move around? That's why. Some planes would barely "notice." Others would. A lot.

Look up the 1977 University of Evansville Men's basketball team.
 
2013-04-30 10:53:59 PM  

theMagni: aedude01: flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway

Fark.

On another morbid note, what's everyone think?  Did they die on impact/explosion or was it a burn to death scenario?  Few things bother my psyche more when flying than the prospect of being in a plane crash, surviving, only to then burn to death.

Between the impact itself, the shockwave from the explosion, the loose cargo, the heat, smoke, and lack of air, it was an all-you-can eat buffet of instant death.


and no nevermind the way it landed would crush your spine in about .015 seconds causing instant death
 
2013-04-30 10:55:58 PM  
Holy shiat, those unfortunate bastards... RIP

/one of my coworkers is currently stationed at Bagram, I'll have to talk to him when he gets back CONUS... I hope he didn't see that shiat when it happened.
 
2013-04-30 10:56:03 PM  

ElLoco: Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously

Possibly, but if that were done at altitude (which is the only way there would be time to do it), the structural stresses on an aircraft that size would tear it apart... not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage.


The last thing you want to do when you're stalled at low altitude is autorotate. That will end you up in a spin. Looking at the video, that almost happened in this accident. It never got past the incipient stage, though.
 
2013-04-30 10:56:14 PM  

ElLoco: Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously

Possibly, but if that were done at altitude (which is the only way there would be time to do it), the structural stresses on an aircraft that size would tear it apart... not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage.


Problem is with 75% of the aircraft weight in the tail, even turning can get the nose down.  Theoretically the only thing that could have helped them is having engines powerful enough to (tow) the dead tail weight into something resembling acceleration, and even fighters, I think the only plane capable of actually accelerating towing its own weight in a vertical climb, is the F-15, and a cargo laden 747 that is not.
 
2013-04-30 10:56:33 PM  

Fista-Phobia: Gross overload.


if you mean... by overloading the CG when (if) the cargo broke loose... maybe, but if you mean the 5 vehicles onboard being too heavy... Naa, I worked on the YAL-1 (747-400) the 400 can handle more weight than that.
 
2013-04-30 10:57:14 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


There is a place like that where people park and watch the planes fly in to Tampa's Airport.  There is no beach though.
 
2013-04-30 10:57:25 PM  

ElLoco: not to mention that assuming the aircraft actually survived such a maneuver, all the aerial acrobatics would very likely smash that several ton thing in the back through the fuselage


Now that was material for some very entertaining mental images. On the one hand, you wouldn't have the cargo causing shift anymore if it all went out a hole. LOL

/okay, I'm sorry I'm laughing in this thread, but my family is like that
 
2013-04-30 10:57:35 PM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


So am I going to hell for laughing at that, and if so, can I sit next to you and you can tell me stories on the way?
 
2013-04-30 11:01:37 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


I worked out there for five months..I was sitting at the bar right there..(A Pittsburgh Steeler bar,how random is that)Funny thing is,The second the plane flew in I realized it was a backpage photo I had seen in Maxim years earlier.
 
2013-04-30 11:03:13 PM  

SpaceBison: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

It's kinda like this: [funny.ph image 599x399]


calbert: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 500x372]


Hahahaha those are freaking awesome.
 
2013-04-30 11:05:27 PM  

WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...


This happened at Grissom in the middle 60s too. Drove the guys shoulders down to his hips. My dad was in the personnel office at the time and had to notify the family.
 
2013-04-30 11:05:40 PM  

Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.


Yeah.  I thought at first, pilot should have pitched down hard as soon as the looming stall was apparent.  Then I kept watching and thought, s/he was probably full on it but there was no way to correct a fatal CG offset.
 
2013-04-30 11:07:54 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


trbimg.comView Full Size


images.onset.freedom.comView Full Size


Driving the 405 while planes are landing at John Wayne is always fun
 
2013-04-30 11:09:12 PM  
Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.
 
2013-04-30 11:12:23 PM  
See air travel is either competently safe or totally fatal

/the only way to win is to play TICK-TAC-TOE
 
2013-04-30 11:12:37 PM  

Peki: boywondered: More than likely, the pilots were pushing forward on the controls as hard as they could to get the nose down, but the elevator was not effective enough.

Question: Is turning effective? It would seem to me that if your nose is pointing damn near vertical, any direction would get the nose down.

/pilot in Bagram didn't have the time, obviously


Looked to me as though the pilot was attempting to turn,  back towards the runway
 
2013-04-30 11:12:55 PM  

Cuyose: I think the only plane capable of actually accelerating towing its own weight in a vertical climb, is the F-15


It can do that, so can the F-16, F-22 and F-35. Usually it's with 50% fuel and no load. MiG-29, Su-27, you get the idea. The best one was the Streak Eagle IMO.

Anyways, I wonder if you can fit RATOs on a 747? Flip a panic switch and maybe it could help.
 
2013-04-30 11:13:10 PM  
Knowing many pilots (years in Civil Air Patrol, I <3 Cessnas), at least they got to go out doing something they loved. Still, it's a shiatty way to go. If there's an upside, they were working, so life insurance should pay out double or more for for their families. Poor comfort though.
 
2013-04-30 11:13:23 PM  

katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.


RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread
 
2013-04-30 11:14:03 PM  

scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved


So did you know who.
 
2013-04-30 11:14:06 PM  

bhcompy: God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]

[www.trbimg.com image 600x379]

[images.onset.freedom.com image 300x225]

Driving the 405 while planes are landing at John Wayne is always fun


not unusual
 
2013-04-30 11:15:08 PM  
I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?
 
2013-04-30 11:15:54 PM  

bhcompy: God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]

[www.trbimg.com image 600x379]

[images.onset.freedom.com image 300x225]

Driving the 405 while planes are landing at John Wayne is always fun


San Diego and L.A. same thing.
 
2013-04-30 11:19:56 PM  

Matthew Keene: In the pre-video days, like 1865. They just had to say it with words when there was a bad accident.

"The Indianapolis Journal reports the following horrible accident, by which a Mrs. KRONAN lost her life: She was killed in crossing the railroad track on Illinois Street. At the time Mrs. KRONAN was attempting to cross, the Terre Haute train was coming in, while the switch engine of the I. & C. road was taking up seven or eight freight cars to the Terre Haute Depot. The woman attempted to get out of the way of the Terre Haute train, and in doing so was unfortunate enough to get in the way of the freight train. She was thrown upon the track, and two or three cars passed directly over her head, mangling it in a most fearful manner; not a feature of her face was left, and identification was impossible except by her dress. Her brains were scattered about, and even her tongue dislocated from her head, and left by the side of the rail. "


True story, my great grandfather was killed by a train.

Thanks to the news paper article about his wreck (1920's) I know he was decapitated half way through the face!
 
2013-04-30 11:20:55 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.


Well, if your training includes video like this where someone screwed up, I can see why.
 
2013-04-30 11:21:07 PM  
Who can't learn to set the date/time on his dash-cam?  Remarkable video, and one that will hopefully be used when training people about the importance of securing cargo loads.
 
2013-04-30 11:22:26 PM  

wingedkat: HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?

Not much.  He pulls over for a bit, calms his dog, then moves to drive around the wreckage.  When the video cuts off, it appears he made it.


The dog took it hard.
"Whine whine"
(It's falling! It's crashing! It burst into flames! Oh, the humanity!)
 
2013-04-30 11:23:07 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.


You're lucky. I had a bowl of parentheses that were full of ampersands. I had a semi colon after that.
 
2013-04-30 11:24:32 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.


A couple more tales I heard about. I was talking to a guy who worked on the refuelling trucks.There was an airshow in the UK, can't remember which one, that had two Mig's doing a routine. They hit each other head on. This crew were directly underneath, half on a break lying on the wing of a Hercules, half working on the truck. They saw the crash happen directly above them and a chunk of one of the Mig's landed on the tail of the Herc. Of the crew working the fuel truck one of the guys ran for cover. Under the fuel truck.
All survived.

The other story I heard third hand. We had a training squadron that had Bulldogs, two seat, side by said, low wing prop trainers. Because it was the then primary RAF trainer it had parachutes, but not ejection seats. The chute was built into the seat back so you climbed onboard, did up the chute five point harness then did up the seat five point harness. Getting out was the reverse, hit the seat harness buckle then the chute buckle and step out.
One day an instructor was flying solo when he had an engine fire, so he bailed out. Except, out of sheer habit, he had undone both buckles and jumped leaving the chute on the plane...

Found the video  of the Mig's crash.
 
2013-04-30 11:24:34 PM  

FLMoose: Well, I think it's safe to rule out fuel starvation...


Your joke would have been funnier if you said that it's safe to rule out fuel exhaustion.
Fuel starvation is when you have it, but it isn't getting to the engine. Fuel exhaustion is when you're out of juice.

/The more you know.
 
2013-04-30 11:25:57 PM  

redsquid: You can't get a pregnant pause if you use the colon.


This is exactly why I visit FARK.  Well Done!
 
2013-04-30 11:26:40 PM  

China White Tea: This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?


The guy sees a plane crash and burst into a huge fireball with no comment.  About a minute later he utters the expletive in question.
Maybe it took him that long to remember someone asking him if he had properly secured the cargo, and him replying "Yeah, sure.  Whatever."
 
2013-04-30 11:27:39 PM  

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


It's lack of airflow over control surfaces. They could have stuck their arms out the windows to flap and wouldn't have been faulted for it at that point.
 
2013-04-30 11:28:21 PM  
fusillade762:
I have dreams of planes (and other large objects) falling out of the sky on a semi-regular basis.


24.media.tumblr.comView Full Size
 
2013-04-30 11:29:11 PM  

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


It's academic at that point, it mattered not to the outcome other than a small effect of the final position and attitude. The roll happened because either the pilot had some aileron/rudder authority and tried to bank or yaw (unlikely on the yaw), or one wing was more stalled than the other.

To the last point, the 747 has a fair bit of dihedral and a sideslipped condition can cause a rolling moment. Once the aircraft was ballistic, there's a chance that the local wind conditions helped initiate that roll.
 
2013-04-30 11:29:22 PM  

LessO2: juvandy: for the uninitiated, can someone explain how a cargo shift causes that?

Not a pilot, but my guess is that the additional, sudden weight shift into the back rendered the elevators (small wings below the rudder) useless, causing the stall.


/stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night



*I* would have stayed there too, but I was so tired that I just crashed wherever I fell.

/ .......too soon???
 
2013-04-30 11:29:33 PM  
Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.
 
2013-04-30 11:30:13 PM  

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.

RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread


If it helps you, I have you tagged as "flood of terror diarrhea". I tend to joke in bad situations because it's either that or break down and cry and I don't like doing that.
 
2013-04-30 11:30:25 PM  
For those interested in the ejection seat stories there are many "fun" inadvertent ejection stories at http://ejectionsite.com/  Check under "Eyewitness to Ejection" My favorite was the one where they guy was flying along, and woke up on the ground. No plane in sight. They finally found it many hundreds of miles away belly landed on some snow. He accidentally tripped the ejection somehow and when the seat went it knocked him out so he didn't know what happened. The least favorite was the kid (in Somalia or something) playing in a plane and got ejected through the hangar roof.

There are also some good explanations of how the seats work

\Former professional simulator nerd
 
2013-04-30 11:30:27 PM  

Acharne: HighZoolander: I had to turn it off after the expletive at the 1:15 mark - that just pushed the video past an intensity level that I can handle. What happened after that?

There was much more swearing and some footage of an entire scout troup crying. You've have melted.


and the funny thing is that I love horror movies - A Serbian Film, Salo, etc., but an expletive? fark, that's just too much. I'm just happy that I was warned first, you know?
 
2013-04-30 11:30:57 PM  
Quantum Apostrophe

Go away, shiathead.  Are you same guy who did Linux_Yes?  Probably orally at a truck stop.. ah, fark it.  Just go away.
 
2013-04-30 11:31:08 PM  

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


I'm guessing it could have been the weight imbalance onboard the plane, the wind, or most likely a combination of both. Once the plane stopped climbing, the pilot would've had very little control until it started to fall and pick up speed again. Looks like he did manage to level it out, and probably could've pulled out of it if the ground had been maybe 1000 feet lower.

/not a pilot, just guessing
//RIP crewmen
 
2013-04-30 11:31:09 PM  
Anyone else notice the time stamp on the video?
 
2013-04-30 11:31:32 PM  
That guy is a shiat driver.
 
2013-04-30 11:31:47 PM  

GoldDude: China White Tea: This is a graphic video and an expletive is used at about the 1:15 mark.

...just the one?

The guy sees a plane crash and burst into a huge fireball with no comment.  About a minute later he utters the expletive in question.
Maybe it took him that long to remember someone asking him if he had properly secured the cargo, and him replying "Yeah, sure.  Whatever."


...

I could only click 'Funny' just the once, so I also clicked 'Smart.'

I feel bad about doing that, too.
 
2013-04-30 11:32:53 PM  

Strangerarranger: Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.


Didn't read the article, huh?
 
2013-04-30 11:32:55 PM  

Strangerarranger: Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.


I think you missed the part where it's a cargo plane.
 
2013-04-30 11:33:46 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.

A couple more tales I heard about. I was talking to a guy who worked on the refuelling trucks.There was an airshow in the UK, can't remember which one, that had two Mig's doing a routine. They hit each other head on. This crew were directly underneath, half on a break lying on the wing of a Hercules, half working on the truck. They saw the crash happen directly above them and a chunk of one of the Mig's landed on the tail of the Herc. Of the crew working the fuel truck one of the guys ran for cover. Under the fuel truck.
All survived.

The other story I heard third hand. We had a training squadron that had Bulldogs, two seat, side by said, low wing prop trainers. Because it was the then primary RAF trainer it had parachutes, but not ejection seats. The chute was built into the seat back so you climbed onboard, did up the chute five point harness then did up the seat five point harness. Getting out was the reverse, hit the seat harness buckle then the chute buckle and step out.
One day an instructor was flying solo when he had an engine fire, so he bailed out. Except, out of sheer habit, he had undone both buckles and jumped leaving the chute on the plane...

Found the video  of the ...


And the 2 Russian pilots have a smoke and walk away.
 
2013-04-30 11:36:04 PM  

katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.


Ah...shiat.  I was hopeful there would be people ignorant of what was going on until somewhat closer to impact, but given the titles of everyone on board, they knew exactly what was happening at least from the time the plane appears in the video.

Sucks, RIP.
 
2013-04-30 11:36:58 PM  
Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.
 
2013-04-30 11:37:09 PM  

traylor: I understand the nose up movement (pitch) was caused by the cargo shift. But why the roll? Isn't that a pilot error?


Not at all. In a stall, both wings stall, but one will always stall more than the other. Especially in a power-on stall like this one (low speed high power). Go grab a ride in a Cessna and ask the pilot to perform a power-on stall for you. Same thing happens.
 
2013-04-30 11:37:57 PM  

people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....


we're all missing the point here, which is to give people_are_chumpsencouragement.

i780.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2013-04-30 11:39:21 PM  

humanshrapnel: katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.

Ah...shiat.  I was hopeful there would be people ignorant of what was going on until somewhat closer to impact, but given the titles of everyone on board, they knew exactly what was happening at least from the time the plane appears in the video.

Sucks, RIP.


I did some Facebook stalking and Jamie Brokaw comes from a long line of pilots, has a young daughter and just got married last summer. farking sad as hell. I can't look at FB anymore tonight. I'm going to have nightmares about that crash. The crash in Cast Away gave me panic attacks. My worst fear is crashing in a jet over water.
 
2013-04-30 11:40:23 PM  
My brother flies cargo planes in Afghanistan. I haven't heard from him in a couple days, so I am not getting a kick.....etc
 
2013-04-30 11:40:29 PM  

RatOmeter: Quantum Apostrophe

Go away, shiathead.  Are you same guy who did Linux_Yes?  Probably orally at a truck stop.. ah, fark it.  Just go away.


Well geez if we'd known you're into that we'd have called.

Bring some grape jelly.
 
2013-04-30 11:40:49 PM  

RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.


Classic execution. I've seen Pittmans do that at air shows at much greater heights, but not a big honking jet.

It's like they took off, pulled all throttles to zero, and yanked the yoke into their ball sacks, standing the plane on its tale.

A whole lot of ugly.
 
2013-04-30 11:40:49 PM  

remus: That would match the video... I used to do crash investigations, this isn't going to be pretty.


Oh I don't know. You should see what my gardener did with my yard.  I'll be he could fix up that burn spot in no time.  Little mulch, grass seed, fertilizer, water... oh right no water in the stan.
 
2013-04-30 11:41:20 PM  

ko_kyi: Satanic_Hamster: I've known a number of loadmasters.  They've all been heavily anal retentive sticklers to rules in every aspect of their lives.

Well, if your training includes video like this where someone screwed up, I can see why.


Yep.  That's the type of personality that job attracts / rewards / promotes.   You WANT anal retentive freaks who obsess with going over all the procedure because THAT'S what the RULES say.  Because if you skip a step you might have shiat like that happen.

On the other hand, playing RPG's / tabletop war gaming w/ them can be trying at times.  F'ing rules lawyers.
 
2013-04-30 11:42:41 PM  
Video from another angle

http://youtu.be/NgWm1E_KKhE?t=2m30s
 
2013-04-30 11:43:36 PM  

Igor Jakovsky: And the 2 Russian pilots have a smoke and walk away.


Being Russian it was probably smoking and swigging from a bottle of vodak that caused the crash.

/Used to work with a Russian. Showed him a shopped pic I found on the net of a Russian Army Knife. It has eight tools. Three are bottle openers and the other five are corkscrews.
 
2013-04-30 11:45:08 PM  

iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.


Was there a guy with the initials J.W.R. on board?
 
2013-04-30 11:45:40 PM  

Cats_Lie: Socialism fails again.


Are we blaming Obama or is it Mission Accomplished? I can never tell with the internet anymore.
 
2013-04-30 11:46:19 PM  
pro tip - weight and balance.
 
2013-04-30 11:46:50 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Many years back I went to an airshow at Willow Grove NAS.  My folks were sitting under a wing of a plane (shade) while I was standing in line to see a Sea King when I heard a muffled "boom" and saw a parachute unfurling in the air.  Went right over me and landed on the plane my folks were under.

A young kid had been sitting in the cockpit of an A6 and was fiddling with the knobs and levers.  The crew chief hadn't properly secured the ejection seat.  Kid didn't survive.  Last airshow there for a very long time.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19800707&id=APhLAAAAI BA J&sjid=xO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2404,2617907
 
2013-04-30 11:48:11 PM  

katerbug72: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: katerbug72: Crew
Jamie Brokaw, pilot, Monroe, MI
Brad Hasler, pilot, Trenton, MI
Jeremy Lipka, pilot, Brooklyn, MI
Rinku Summan, pilot, Canton, MI
Michael Sheets, loadmaster, Ypsilanti, MI
Gary Stockdale, mechanic, Romulus, MI
Timothy Garrett, mechanic, Louisville, KY

So sad for their families. RIP.

RIP and condolences, despite my joking throughout the thread

If it helps you, I have you tagged as "flood of terror diarrhea". I tend to joke in bad situations because it's either that or break down and cry and I don't like doing that.


Sad for the families, but glad my brother wasn't on board. RIP guys....
 
2013-04-30 11:49:22 PM  

remus: WhyteRaven74: remus: I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

I heard of an incident in the 70s, not sure what plane or exact location, but someone was working on a plane in a hanger, when the ejection seat went off...

Yes, in Germany.  F-4 Phantom.  Martin Baker Mark III seat.  The crew chief wanted to leave this mortal coil, so he did it on purpose.


That actually sounds like a pretty cool method, assuming nobody else was hurt. I'd feel too guilty about the nasty mess I'd be leaving for my coworkers to clean up, but maybe he hated those guys.

I want to go like Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove. Not with the bomb, particularly, just the ride! If I were rich and suicidal I'd pay SpaceX to strap a seat on the side of one of their first stages, and take the round trip*...Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee{splat}

Freefall jumping just wouldn't be the same. Human terminal velocity is way too slow for my last joyride! And I'm too respectful of others' property to steal a biz jet and dive the wings off.
---
*Yep, I know there's a mod for that in Kerbal Space Program,  thanks  :)
 
2013-04-30 11:51:00 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


Wow that's somewhat terrifying.
charlock.orgView Full Size
 
2013-04-30 11:55:01 PM  

marksman: iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.

Was there a guy with the initials J.W.R. on board?


Johnny Walker Red?
 
2013-04-30 11:55:48 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: inglixthemad: aedude01: jayhawk88:

Princess Juliana International Airport:

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x300]
[q8allinone.com image 778x445]


[api.ning.com image 850x647]

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x425]


It can cause severe physical harm which can result in extreme bodily harm? That seems oddly worded.
 
2013-04-30 11:55:57 PM  

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting


Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.
 
2013-04-30 11:57:10 PM  

iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.


Tell him someone sends a hug from California. My bro works on an aircraft carrier in the gulf; all military is family.

Valiente: RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.

Classic execution. I've seen Pittmans do that at air shows at much greater heights, but not a big honking jet.

It's like they took off, pulled all throttles to zero, and yanked the yoke into their ball sacks, standing the plane on its tale.

A whole lot of ugly.


Makes for a great story though.
 
2013-04-30 11:59:20 PM  

eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.


Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?
 
2013-04-30 11:59:56 PM  

Mad_Season: Video from another angle

http://youtu.be/NgWm1E_KKhE?t=2m30s


You know what that's just bullsh^t....I mean how did Yosimite Sam drop his guns.Then all of a sudden he is back on the plane with the guns??

//Thoughts.
 
2013-05-01 12:00:37 AM  

SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

go rent 'fearless' 'hero' 'alive' 'flight' and 'flight 93'

no way you can crash after that.


Heh, the night before myself and a couple of others were to jump on a plane bound for the himalayas, we watched The Grey, without knowing anything about the movie prior. That caused a couple of nervous laughs...
 
2013-05-01 12:00:46 AM  

Charlie Freak: eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.

Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?


I think giant airplanes falling from the sky and exploding elicit an almost universal response.
 
2013-05-01 12:01:18 AM  

eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.


He may have.....known something......

[cue conspiracy theories to the left]
[or right]
 
2013-05-01 12:01:26 AM  

W.C.fields forever: Mad_Season: Video from another angle

http://youtu.be/NgWm1E_KKhE?t=2m30s

You know what that's just bullsh^t....I mean how did Yosimite Sam drop his guns.Then all of a sudden he is back on the plane with the guns??

//Thoughts.


I meant Thoughts and prayers.
 
2013-05-01 12:03:08 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Crashing Bagram Style.


I think I may be going to hell for laughing at that.
 
2013-05-01 12:04:53 AM  

eggrolls: Charlie Freak: eggrolls: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Meisaims: Why did the dog sound so upset? That actually freaked me out more than anything.

Dogs don't like thunder, so I imagine a huge explosion and fire might be upsetting

Also explains why the "f*ck* doesn't come out until 1:15 into the crash. That driver was stone cold. I would have been shouting profanities from the boom.

Maybe people from other countries don't yell to themselves as much as Americans do?

I think giant airplanes falling from the sky and exploding elicit an almost universal response.


I dunno. Did you watch the Russian dashcam videos of the giant meteor exploding?
 
2013-05-01 12:08:44 AM  

Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.


Are they still doing a max angle climbout from Bagram to avoid any nearby SAMs?
 
2013-05-01 12:09:20 AM  

Deucetoo: Notice how calm and quiet the guy was? I'm calling a false flag. There was something on that plane Obama didn't want going to the UAE. This guy just HAPPENED to be there recording this as calm as you like? This video wasn't supposed to get released. This guy is probably now in GTMO.

/amidoingitright?


Being a divisive retard injecting politics into a thread that has nothing to do with left/right squabbling? Yeah, I'd say you're managing okay.
 
2013-05-01 12:11:44 AM  
False flag.
 
2013-05-01 12:12:13 AM  
I don't understand why the audio is so quiet. The mic is clearly capable of picking up voices. If I saw that, even if I was alone in my car, I would say SOMETHING. I would curse, or gasp, or lose my bowels... but there would definitely be a much more interesting audio track.
 
2013-05-01 12:14:15 AM  

TheOtherMisterP: I don't understand why the audio is so quiet. The mic is clearly capable of picking up voices. If I saw that, even if I was alone in my car, I would say SOMETHING. I would curse, or gasp, or lose my bowels... but there would definitely be a much more interesting audio track.


I'd be like,  HO  LEE  F*CK ! Dialing 911 at the same time.
 
2013-05-01 12:14:31 AM  
THANKS OBAMA
 
2013-05-01 12:16:15 AM  
Heard in the cockpit voice recorder........I am goin down down down......Im' goin down down down........

Bruce Springsteen for the  win!

Never to early!
 
2013-05-01 12:17:06 AM  
Which Warlord/CIA agent is pissed his shipment of heroin got destroyed?
 
HBK
2013-05-01 12:19:35 AM  

WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know


Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?
 
2013-05-01 12:21:43 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved

So did you know who.


Michael Hutchence?
 
2013-05-01 12:25:15 AM  

DeadPuppySociety: Quantum Apostrophe: scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved

So did you know who.

Michael Hutchence?


David Carradine?
 
2013-05-01 12:28:18 AM  

RatOmeter: Lsherm: Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.

Yeah, cargo planes don't go vertical after liftoff on purpose.

Yeah.  I thought at first, pilot should have pitched down hard as soon as the looming stall was apparent.  Then I kept watching and thought, s/he was probably full on it but there was no way to correct a fatal CG offset.


You can hear the engines screaming because they were on takeoff, but once the weight shifted the pilot only had the option of trying to flatten it out and attempt a bad takeoff, but there was too much weight at the back.

It didn't matter what the pilot did at that point - all the weight was at the back of the plane.  Only the thrust of the engines kept it from falling back down cartoon style.  Instead it climbed almost vertical and twisted down after a stall.  Pretty much what you'd expect with broken cargo.
 
2013-05-01 12:29:35 AM  

DeadPuppySociety: Quantum Apostrophe: scubamage: at least they got to go out doing something they loved

So did you know who.

Michael Hutchence?


I was thinking Dale Earnhardt.
 
2013-05-01 12:30:53 AM  
Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.
 
2013-05-01 12:31:57 AM  

sjcousins: JohnAnnArbor: I_Am_Weasel: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...

what happened next?

We dug it out and sent it to the lab.  What else do you do with some tongue?  We don't normally get the parts, so it was a little exciting.

no, what happened after you continued eating lunch, what with the ellipsis and all

You had an ellipsis for lunch?

It's the thing, lately.  I had a couple quote marks and a tilde, myself.

You're lucky. I had a bowl of parentheses that were full of ampersands. I had a semi colon after that.



Ampersands are the worst thing for any VaJayJay. Makes ya biitchy!
 
2013-05-01 12:33:33 AM  

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that, at least for a little bit.  It only impacted nose first once it got the 10 milliseconds of control back, at which point I'm sure all that cargo shifted to the front.
 
2013-05-01 12:34:17 AM  

Peki: iron_city_ap: Not CSB: Apparently, my first officer used to work with and knew one of the guys onboard.

It just makes you feel ill seeing something like this.

Tell him someone sends a hug from California. My bro works on an aircraft carrier in the gulf; all military is family.

Valiente: RexTalionis: Damn, that is a really bad stall.

Classic execution. I've seen Pittmans do that at air shows at much greater heights, but not a big honking jet.

It's like they took off, pulled all throttles to zero, and yanked the yoke into their ball sacks, standing the plane on its tale.

A whole lot of ugly.

Makes for a great story though.


You win an Internet. Me making a typo like that is pretty rare. I blame the skipper's nerve tonic, personally.
 
2013-05-01 12:36:59 AM  

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.


Inertia.
 
2013-05-01 12:38:17 AM  

Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that


More like 100,000.
 
2013-05-01 12:38:28 AM  

remus: SpikeStrip: remus: this isn't going to be pretty.

opposed to what?

I worked one where the pilot ejected and only got a few scratches on his arm from the sage brush while he was walking out to the nearest road.

I worked another where the co-pilot was beheaded by a bird coming thru the canopy.

The worst, hands down, was the A-10 Lt Col who ejected in a full bank horizontal to the ground; his seat worked perfectly right until it hit the Oak tree.  It was worse than the decapitated guy because the lab reeked for weeks.

// have actually had a conversation, while eating lunch, that included the words "what's that?  I think it's a piece of tongue..."
// continued eating lunch...


I am so going to hell. I laughed way too hard at the A-10 bit.

/Still laughing
//Aisle seat
 
2013-05-01 12:40:45 AM  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXJ_MfAnjgQ

This video has a graphic of how load shift works, for anyone who wants to take a look.  It's not the best graphic, but it gives a basic idea of how it happens.
 
2013-05-01 12:41:31 AM  
Charlie Freak:
cyberspacedout:
powhound:
ElLoco:


OK, I understand now that you can't do anything against roll in a stall even at full power. Thank you for the answers.
 
2013-05-01 12:42:09 AM  

HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.
 
2013-05-01 12:44:06 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that

More like 100,000.


More like 240,000+.
 
2013-05-01 12:44:44 AM  

Peki: Strangerarranger: Well I hope those in First Class got marshmellows on sticks before they landed. I'm thinking they would have had a good use for those. S'Mores anyone?

And I hope nobody had to pay to check their baggage on the flight. I'm thinkig all baggage was lost inflight.

I think you missed the part where it's a cargo plane.



Technically, the cargo was lost on the ground. It's *c-o-n-t-r-o-l* that was lost in-flight.
 
2013-05-01 12:45:03 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that

More like 100,000.


OK, fark, I didn't look it up, OK?  But it's pretty clear from the video what happened.
 
2013-05-01 12:45:55 AM  

base935: Quantum Apostrophe: Lsherm: You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that

More like 100,000.

More like 240,000+.


Yup, not mathing too well tonight.
 
2013-05-01 12:46:01 AM  

youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.


This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.
 
2013-05-01 12:46:33 AM  

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


Dude. The control system worked.  The load shifted suddenly making it tail heavy, so it was a stall-spin to the left due to too high angle of attack.  Lowering the nose is how you recover from a stall.  They correctly leveled the wings with opposite aileron and lowered the nose with the elevator.  They needed another few thousand feet of altitude to recover successfully.
 
2013-05-01 12:48:15 AM  

SpikeStrip: people_are_chumps: I'm flying for the first time in 12 years next week so I'm not getting a kick....

we're all missing the point here, which is to give people_are_chumpsencouragement.

[i780.photobucket.com image 220x230]



OH, now I see........ Ok, well....... uhhhhhhhhhhhh........ Ok, got it: PRC, don't worry, no matter what happens to the plane, most likely you'll come out ALIVE.

/How does that one bite ya??? Right on the a55, huh?
/And watch out for clouds; some of them have rocks in 'em.
 
HBK
2013-05-01 12:48:56 AM  

Charlie Freak: youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.

This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.


Well that's terrifying. Doesn't GPS/radar, whatever give you a good heads up about nearby planes? Did the pilot just fall asleep or something?
 
2013-05-01 12:50:03 AM  

Lsherm: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.

You've got 20,000 pounds of thrust counteracting that, at least for a little bit.  It only impacted nose first once it got the 10 milliseconds of control back, at which point I'm sure all that cargo shifted to the front.


Thrust doesn't work that way.  Aircraft are design to minimize pitch changes due to thrust, with the exception of certain seaplanes.

Also, you don't get "control back" until you get speed back, and that doesn't happen until the nose drops.

FizixJunkee: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Inertia.


Inertia doesn't cause a aircraft to change from nose-up to nose-down - it tends to keep things where they are.
 
2013-05-01 12:51:32 AM  

thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

If the airplane was tail-heavy enough to overwhelm the elevator, it would have come down tail first.  It impacted nose first.

Put me down for human error (only because it usually is), or control system malfunction.


The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.
 
2013-05-01 12:52:49 AM  

netringer: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Dude. The control system worked.  The load shifted suddenly making it tail heavy, so it was a stall-spin to the left due to too high angle of attack.  Lowering the nose is how you recover from a stall.  They correctly leveled the wings with opposite aileron and lowered the nose with the elevator.  They needed another few thousand feet of altitude to recover successfully.


If they could have levelled the nose with the elevator, they would have done it before they stalled.  It is a textbook example of how you attempt to recover from a stall - in a normally balanced airplane.

Also, you level the wings with opposite rudder, not aileron, due to adverse yaw.
 
2013-05-01 12:54:54 AM  

Charlie Freak: Wow, that's got to be a cargo shift.


Either that or massively bad weight and balance during the load process (if it hasn't been said already in the comments, sorry I haven't read them all).

But yeah, highly suspect the cargo went waay off the CG to the aft. Looks like flaps and gear were full as well so that thing went to the extreme AoA.
 
2013-05-01 12:56:50 AM  

flightmonkey88: Here is another unsettling bit, That bird went down on the edge of an old russian minefield at the end of the runway


...sigh. Such a tragedy.
 
2013-05-01 12:57:05 AM  

HBK: Charlie Freak: youmightberight: HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?

Your pilot just dodged a plane by less than 100 yds.

This. Although wake turbulence (not exactly "jetwash") can severely disturb flight.

Well that's terrifying. Doesn't GPS/radar, whatever give you a good heads up about nearby planes? Did the pilot just fall asleep or something?


Normally. GPS no. ATC radar with Mode C transponders, TCAS, and ADS-B yes, but only if everyone is equipped, participating, and paying attention. Your case could have very well been the result of a TCAS resolution advisory (RA) in which the TCAS of both conflicting aircraft have "talked" to each other and advised the pilots of each how to deconflict. This usually involves putting on some climb or descent right the fark now and telling ATC about it afterwards.

It also means a lot of paperwork for a few people.
 
2013-05-01 12:57:05 AM  

HBK:  So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


It has nothing to do with the engines.

It's called wake turbulence:

faa.govView Full Size
 
pilotfriend.comView Full Size

graphics8.nytimes.comView Full Size


The air gets stirred up in vortexes - little tornadoes - from the tips of the wings of a preceding jet.  The vortexes can last for a long time in still air. They descend below the previous jet's flight path and and spread out horizontally.

They can flip a smaller plane on its back, and they're invisible.  Planes have to try to fly above the flight path of the previous.

Maverick and Goose had an engine flameout when they got so close to the previous jet's exhaust one of their F-14's engine intake starved for clean air and the engine quit.
 
2013-05-01 12:58:53 AM  

thedumbone: netringer: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

Dude. The control system worked.  The load shifted suddenly making it tail heavy, so it was a stall-spin to the left due to too high angle of attack.  Lowering the nose is how you recover from a stall.  They correctly leveled the wings with opposite aileron and lowered the nose with the elevator.  They needed another few thousand feet of altitude to recover successfully.

If they could have levelled the nose with the elevator, they would have done it before they stalled.  It is a textbook example of how you attempt to recover from a stall - in a normally balanced airplane.

Also, you level the wings with opposite rudder, not aileron, due to adverse yaw.


Yeah. That.  Brain fart.
 
2013-05-01 12:59:50 AM  

Charlie Freak: thedumbone: Put me down as the (first?) to say - NOT a load shift.

The tailplane's natural state is to fly upside down - in normal flight it is actually producing lift that causes a tail-down moment. When the main wing stalls, the tail often stalls as well, either due to the same low speed or because it is in the buffeted slipstream from the wing. The loss of this tail-down moment causes, you guessed it, a nose-down moment. Lower altitude, less time, and the tail-first thing might have played out, but there are a lot of other dynamics at play here as the wings and horizontal stabs alternately tried to go flying again.


The tail is designed to stall after the wing.  A tail stall is a whole different beast and rarely happens outside of icing conditions.

In any event, a stalled tail is producing effectively zero lift.  A flying tail, with the elevator forward, is trying to push the nose down.  A stalled tail would be LESS likely to drop the nose than a flying one.

/CFII, AMEL ASEL, 2000 hrs
 
2013-05-01 12:59:53 AM  

HBK: WizardofToast: One of my greatest fears is riding a plane that just drops out of the sky mid-flight. Now I'm going to hate every take off unless all the fat people are kept in the center seats.

/I know fat people can't bring down a plane
//But ya never know

Here's a story for you, and something that maybe the pilot-folk here on fark can shed some light on.

I was sleeping on a Continental flight from Little Rock to Houston. I woke up and my stomach was in my chest, like when you're on one of those tower of terror or dungeon drop rides at an amusement park. The plane felt like it was just dropping out of the sky. Everyone started cursing and screaming.

It felt like we were falling for 30 seconds, but I'm sure it was probably less than 10 seconds. The plane leveled out.  Fifteen minutes the stewardess comes on the intercom and says "Sorry about the turbulence. We flew through some jetwash."

I muttered to myself "That's how Goose died." and the guy next asked me frantically "Who's Goose? is that a friend of yours?" He hadn't seen the movie.
 So fark pilot folks my question is this- I thought jet wash dissipates pretty rapidly. So how close were we to another jet for jetwash to cause what happened? And did the jetwash cause the engines to stall, or was a rapid descent done to avoid a stall?


Wake turbulence descends through the air column as it dissipates, so you can be a fair distance (1000-1500 ft vertically, 1-2 miles horizontally) away from the generating aircraft  and still feel the effects, especially if you are following or overtaking it at a lower altitude.  The descent was most likely an attempt to get below the turbulence. Think of the wake vortex descending left to right (\) and your aircraft descending right to left (/), the shortest way through the "danger zone" will make an X shape.  That said, unless it was an extreme case,  wake turbulence at altitude is more on an annoyance than a safety issue.

Per the engine question; even if the engines had quit, which they most assuredly didn't, you would not plummet from the sky.  In fact, if you had on noise cancelling headphones you probably wouldn't even notice.
 
2013-05-01 12:59:57 AM  

thedumbone: Lsherm: thedumbone: Pu